Govt raises legal questions over election of new speaker

[mikemac]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

Until all can canvass without fear of intimidation, there is no democracy.

Oh that canvassing thing again. Any luck with some details I asked for in the other thread? Rather than you just blithely saying that Democrat Party canvassers were murdered and beaten up in the North. I gave you links to what I could find, any chance of you doing the same?

Or is it the usual scattergun accusation approach in the hope that it will be believed, so beloved of certain posters on here.

Links schminks ! Are you that naive that you believe anything as long as there is a link to it ? Gee, I bet the email scammers just love you, like taking candy from a baby.

Oh, and any luck with that list of achievements by the PTP since they took power ? The ones you were asked for time and time again, seeing as you are such a big fan of PTP, surely you can list their glowing achievements. Or are you just going to avoid the question and hope it goes away, a-la Yingluck ?

[ginjag]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

Until all can canvass without fear of intimidation, there is no democracy.

Oh that canvassing thing again. Any luck with some details I asked for in the other thread? Rather than you just blithely saying that Democrat Party canvassers were murdered and beaten up in the North. I gave you links to what I could find, any chance of you doing the same?

Or is it the usual scattergun accusation approach in the hope that it will be believed, so beloved of certain posters on here.

TRUE--from memory lane, had the governance been legit, and up and above board all this shizen would not have happened. and you would still have another year or so in command therefore you wouldn't have much to post about because all the anti gov posters would have been happy. Maybe you will not agree with this as again it doesn't fit your agenda.

Again it is the actual hands on good governance that is important to a nation who wishes to do well, with the masses benefitting from that.

Edited May 11, 2014 by ginjag

[Piichai]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

Until all can canvass without fear of intimidation, there is no democracy.

Oh that canvassing thing again. Any luck with some details I asked for in the other thread? Rather than you just blithely saying that Democrat Party canvassers were murdered and beaten up in the North. I gave you links to what I could find, any chance of you doing the same?

Or is it the usual scattergun accusation approach in the hope that it will be believed, so beloved of certain posters on here.

If I was wrong, then I apologize.

However, it doesn't change the fact that if *all* political parties cannot canvass without intimidation, there is no democracy.

In the 2011 election alone, at least four canvassers were murdered. How many more were beaten or intimidated?

I live just a few kilometers from a Red village; I see what they do. I see how they intimidate people; especially the old and the weak. I see the vote buying.

To argue that Thailand can have fair and free democratic elections under such circumstances is nonsensical.

[geriatrickid]

It is a valid legal question and should be addressed. If it has no legal basis, then it will not proceed any further. I do note that the majority of votes came from Senators who were appointed by the former military dictatorship and Abhisit administration. That does cause a bit of a stench.

And if that then prompts questions about the legitimacy of Mr. Short time Poly Syllable's selection as temporary, interim, stand-in, substitute, acting , caretaker prime minister that ultimately leads to the political vacuum that some desire, dies that therefore leave us in a status of som nam na that you will accept?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

And you miss the point. If the argument for the removal of various government officials was that they violated the applicable constitutional laws, then those who are responsible for the removal must be compliant with the same constitutional laws.

In respect to the election of a senate president, it is tainted because a large number of senators assumed their position due to appointment of by the former military dictatorship and the Abhisit administration and they all voted for one of their own.. The battleground is over who controls the senate. The senate holds considerable power, particularly over the appointment of officials. If the military and Democrat faction can keep control of the Senate, they can keep manufacturing situations where any political party that is not aligned with it will keep being removed. The anti government faction wants to keep blocking the election and to appoint a "transition" government because many of the senators terms will expire within the next year. If they can gain control the government even if only for a year, they can influence the appointment of new senators and retain control of the senate.

[gabruce]

Let's see shit really hit the fan as Surachai appoints Suthep.. 55555555555555

Prediction. Surachai will NEVER appoint Suthep as acting Prime Minister. I'll repeat again, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

I will qualify that by saying my crystal ball is a bit murky these days because of overuse.

[h90]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

Great seems curtains for YL seems the Dems finally have some power in the senate.

Bit by bit the evil dictatorship is being broken down. Good will triumph over corruption and evil.

I don't think the Dems got some power....I think the common sense got some power.

Also an option of course.. I always thought senators would vote for what party they support no matter if it was right or wrong.. at least it went that way before.

Well, that is cynical, but true.....Per constitution the senate is independent from the parties. And I am sure many some a few senators are really independent....

[jennywren]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

Luckily it is a very tiny conga line and not likely to influence anybody ever.

Meanwhile pretty much the entire world is horrified at the prospect of a putch lead by Suthep. Even the Army still not coming out for him.

This week, the Courts lost the tiny shred of crediblity they may have had up until last weekend, HRW (the real one, not the Thai Elite one) soundly condemed the press freedom raids and photos of tourists walking to airports whilst taxis are beaten sensless grab the headlines.

Red gatherings make it obvious to anybody who has the numbers. Even in their own living room (Lumpini - Sathorn area) the PDRD can't get together more than 1st division away day crowd. Take Suthep and all his men yesterday and they would not fill the Kop End at Liverpool!!!!

Thailand WILL face sanctions if the few behind the scenes pull this off, and in any event, they'll be overthrown or voted out again instantly.

Meanwhile the Government are still there after a 6 month all out assault from the Courts and the army backed PDRC.

Not looking good for the elites is it!!

[Scamper]

Pheu Thai has decided that a prime minister can be nominated through half a caretaker cabinet, even though a prime minister can only be constitutionally nominated through a quorum-filled parliament, or through the Senate in the event of a quorum-less parliament. And yet they are casting aspersions on a man who won a convincing victory in the only legislative institution now legitimately operating. How ironic. And how unsurprising. Where does Pheu Thai see the endgame in all of this ? Exactly what is their strategy ? Because if they actually envisage months and months of legal challenges on whether the Senate can or cannot open, or what the Senate can or cannot do - is that really going to get them where they want to go ? Have they actually thought this out ? After railing against all the courts and all the independent agencies - and seemingly everything else that moves - is Pheu Thai now going to go after the Senate ? Is that what it comes down to ? The Senate is poised to start impeachment hearings regarding Yingluck, as they are constitutionally obligated to do upon the recommendation of the National Anti-Corruption Commission. Is this Pheu Thai's strategy - just prevent the Senate from opening ? Permanently ? The optics of this are painful.

[northernjohn]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

Luckily it is a very tiny conga line and not likely to influence anybody ever.

Meanwhile pretty much the entire world is horrified at the prospect of a putch lead by Suthep. Even the Army still not coming out for him.

This week, the Courts lost the tiny shred of crediblity they may have had up until last weekend, HRW (the real one, not the Thai Elite one) soundly condemed the press freedom raids and photos of tourists walking to airports whilst taxis are beaten sensless grab the headlines.

Red gatherings make it obvious to anybody who has the numbers. Even in their own living room (Lumpini - Sathorn area) the PDRD can't get together more than 1st division away day crowd. Take Suthep and all his men yesterday and they would not fill the Kop End at Liverpool!!!!

Thailand WILL face sanctions if the few behind the scenes pull this off, and in any event, they'll be overthrown or voted out again instantly.

Meanwhile the Government are still there after a 6 month all out assault from the Courts and the army backed PDRC.

Not looking good for the elites is it!!

Well if you are an example of an elite no it is not looking good for them.

[northernjohn]

Pheu Thai has decided that a prime minister can be nominated through half a caretaker cabinet, even though a prime minister can only be constitutionally nominated through a quorum-filled parliament, or through the Senate in the event of a quorum-less parliament. And yet they are casting aspersions on a man who won a convincing victory in the only legislative institution now legitimately operating. How ironic. And how unsurprising. Where does Pheu Thai see the endgame in all of this ? Exactly what is their strategy ? Because if they actually envisage months and months of legal challenges on whether the Senate can or cannot open, or what the Senate can or cannot do - is that really going to get them where they want to go ? Have they actually thought this out ? After railing against all the courts and all the independent agencies - and seemingly everything else that moves - is Pheu Thai now going to go after the Senate ? Is that what it comes down to ? The Senate is poised to start impeachment hearings regarding Yingluck, as they are constitutionally obligated to do upon the recommendation of the National Anti-Corruption Commission. Is this Pheu Thai's strategy - just prevent the Senate from opening ? Permanently ? The optics of this are painful.

PTP and the red shirts being the dimmest bulbs in a box of 20 watt bulbs expect Thaksin to buy some new Cabinet ministers and ship a box load more of money over to the red shirts. What is Ironic is Jatuporn is leading the red shirts a man Thaksin had tried to distance himself from. He replaced a known communist.

Watching the red shirts is like watching the circus parade where they had a leader followed by a line of elephants holding the tail of the elephant in front of them with their trunk. Makes no difference who the lead elephant is. No thinking required to follow him they are trained to do it.

[Bangmod]

Surachai beat Jongrak Jutanont, who is supported by the pro-Pheu Thai camp, 96 to 51.

looks to me democratically chosen, but that goes of course against PT policies.

[geriatrickid]

Surachai beat Jongrak Jutanont, who is supported by the pro-Pheu Thai camp, 96 to 51.

looks to me democratically chosen, but that goes of course against PT policies.

Yes they had a vote. However, when 1/2 the people participating were appointees who were not democratically chosen, the process can not be termed democratic. It becomes even more undemocratic when one takes into account that a large number of those appointed owe their jobs to a military coup which betrayed democracy. The 51 senators who voted for one candidate are mostly made up of senators who were elected. There were also senators who were appointed by the PTP. The unelected senators have far too much power and do not have a mandate from the people. They have a mandate for the ruling group who appointed them, whether it was the military dictatorship, the Democrats or the PTP.

[pookiki]

It is a valid legal question and should be addressed. If it has no legal basis, then it will not proceed any further. I do note that the majority of votes came from Senators who were appointed by the former military dictatorship and Abhisit administration. That does cause a bit of a stench.

Stench have become synonymous with just about any political/judicial process in Thailand. And the irony of it all is that it attenuates the trivial and ignores what's truly important.

[Mot Leei]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

Some posters have such a quaint turn of phrase. Such name-calling is usually indicative of a lack of cogent argument, so rather than denigrate others (and yourself in the process) maybe it would be a good idea to sit by and watch.

Posters will know that you are one of the Thaksinistas, and as such your post totally ignores the fact that nepotism and corruption have been the name of the game for far too long, and especially under k. Yingluck. She got (some of) what she deserved, but that does not imply that all the dirty washing has Shin DNA in it. There is the stink of rampant corruption on both sides of the divide.

Anyone thinking with even a smidgeon of intelligence will see that reforms are necessary to try to get Thailand out of the mire into which it is fast disappearing. Reformsdoes not mean those not led by Suthep, as he is clearly barking mad and is acting way outside the law, for which he must pay, but reforms led by an experienced and non corrupt cross-section of the political arena, which should exclude anyone facing (or fleeing from) criminal charges, those who are currently banned from politics and anyone of any persuasion who is clearly and closely linked to either of the main protagonists.

Then, and only then, might Thailand lumber and lurch, like a baby taking its first steps, towards a freer and fairer election.

So there you are, Prbkk. Not one wee swearie word, not one 'red kwai' insult. Just a post trying to make a point or two. Not too hard, was it? On you go, see how well you can do.

You lost all credibility in your last patronising paragraph ... pity you almost got there ... maybe if you try a little harder you might be able to get there one day!

Sent from my GT-N5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[NCFC]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

Not to worry. The new regulations stopping the non-visa border runs will see most of them slung out of the country anytime soon.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Baerboxer]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

Elections must be respected - hmmm read that a few times.

PTP only want to respect elections they win. Otherwise look for any reason to wriggle out.

They won't act act contrite because they don't think they've lost yet and still trying any trick to keep power. They know there is no legal basis for appointing this acting PM. But, if they can bluster and bully it through they will.

It is shameful and pathetic to watch.

[Baerboxer]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

And even more shameful is reading the ludicrous comments from PTP Thaksin supporting TV toadies that keep trying to portray the various Thaksin regimes as pro democracy.

Do you really consider their behavior democratic? Did you actually believe Yingluck's defense?

In a real democracy a government caught repeatedly lying and cheating would have resigned rather than keep on lying and twisting to cling on to power.

[Baerboxer]

Considering the 96 to 51 victory of Surachai, the chances are pretty good that Yingluck will be convicted.

PTP could win points by acting contrite, but instead they bluster.

So shameful to watch.

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

Not to worry. The new regulations stopping the non-visa border runs will see most of them slung out of the country anytime soon.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

An great example of thought totally removed from any logic or reason

Well done Notts man,

[fab4]

Until all can canvass without fear of intimidation, there is no democracy.

Oh that canvassing thing again. Any luck with some details I asked for in the other thread? Rather than you just blithely saying that Democrat Party canvassers were murdered and beaten up in the North. I gave you links to what I could find, any chance of you doing the same?

Or is it the usual scattergun accusation approach in the hope that it will be believed, so beloved of certain posters on here.

If I was wrong, then I apologize.

However, it doesn't change the fact that if *all* political parties cannot canvass without intimidation, there is no democracy.

In the 2011 election alone, at least four canvassers were murdered. How many more were beaten or intimidated?

I live just a few kilometers from a Red village; I see what they do. I see how they intimidate people; especially the old and the weak. I see the vote buying.

To argue that Thailand can have fair and free democratic elections under such circumstances is nonsensical.

No need to apologize to me. Just as long as we know that your implication that no democrat party canvassers could canvass in the north for fear of being murdered or beaten up was without foundation, that's fine.

Edited May 11, 2014 by fab4

[siampolee]

Prbkk post # 18

No, what is genuinely shameful to watch is the conga line of TV suckholes endorsing the illegitimate overthrow of democracy

At last you have realised exactly that which the fans of the Shinwatra clan and their Red Shirt posters acolytes are.

[mikemac]

No need to apologize to me. Just as long as we know that your implication that no democrat party canvassers could canvass in the north for fear of being murdered or beaten up was without foundation, that's fine.

bs !

[Thait Spot]

It is a valid legal question and should be addressed. If it has no legal basis, then it will not proceed any further. I do note that the majority of votes came from Senators who were appointed by the former military dictatorship and Abhisit administration. That does cause a bit of a stench.

And if that then prompts questions about the legitimacy of Mr. Short time Poly Syllable's selection as temporary, interim, stand-in, substitute, acting , caretaker prime minister that ultimately leads to the political vacuum that some desire, dies that therefore leave us in a status of som nam na that you will accept?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

And you miss the point. If the argument for the removal of various government officials was that they violated the applicable constitutional laws, then those who are responsible for the removal must be compliant with the same constitutional laws.

In respect to the election of a senate president, it is tainted because a large number of senators assumed their position due to appointment of by the former military dictatorship and the Abhisit administration and they all voted for one of their own.. The battleground is over who controls the senate. The senate holds considerable power, particularly over the appointment of officials. If the military and Democrat faction can keep control of the Senate, they can keep manufacturing situations where any political party that is not aligned with it will keep being removed. The anti government faction wants to keep blocking the election and to appoint a "transition" government because many of the senators terms will expire within the next year. If they can gain control the government even if only for a year, they can influence the appointment of new senators and retain control of the senate.

I guess we shall see whether or not the vote required advance notice (possible) or a royal decree (unlikely).

One point to note is that all present voted and no complaints were raised.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Robby nz]

Surachai beat Jongrak Jutanont, who is supported by the pro-Pheu Thai camp, 96 to 51.

looks to me democratically chosen, but that goes of course against PT policies.

Yes they had a vote. However, when 1/2 the people participating were appointees who were not democratically chosen, the process can not be termed democratic. It becomes even more undemocratic when one takes into account that a large number of those appointed owe their jobs to a military coup which betrayed democracy. The 51 senators who voted for one candidate are mostly made up of senators who were elected. There were also senators who were appointed by the PTP. The unelected senators have far too much power and do not have a mandate from the people. They have a mandate for the ruling group who appointed them, whether it was the military dictatorship, the Democrats or the PTP.

You really should get off that horse Gerry its dead.

The senate is legal under the constitution whether you or your PT friends like it or not.

PT had a chance to change the senate to fully elected and had the agreement of all parties including the Dems.

Then they went and stuffed it up by adding clauses that would have allowed friends and family members of sitting MP's to become senators and done away with the 6 year term.

These two add-ons and the fact that they tried to rush the bill through in an illegal manner were found to be unconstitutional by the court.

[Piichai]

If I was wrong, then I apologize.

However, it doesn't change the fact that if *all* political parties cannot canvass without intimidation, there is no democracy.

In the 2011 election alone, at least four canvassers were murdered. How many more were beaten or intimidated?

I live just a few kilometers from a Red village; I see what they do. I see how they intimidate people; especially the old and the weak. I see the vote buying.

To argue that Thailand can have fair and free democratic elections under such circumstances is nonsensical.

No need to apologize to me. Just as long as we know that your implication that no democrat party canvassers could canvass in the north for fear of being murdered or beaten up was without foundation, that's fine.

Perhaps you don't understand; there is more foundation that democrat party canvassers cannot canvass in the north for fear of being murdered or beaten up than I care to list.

17 Feb, 2014 - PDRC Stage Near Wat Chet Yot Ripped Apart by Red Shirts

6 Jan, 2014 - Red Shirts Attack Anti-Government Protesters in Chiang Mai

15 Dec, 2013 - Reds surround Dem house, burn effigy in Ubon Ratchathani

And that's just in the span of a couple months (give or take a day or two).

This Red violence is quite distasteful, and really has no place in a modern world.

In the 2011 election alone, at least four canvassers were murdered. How many more were beaten or intimidated?

To argue that Thailand can have fair and free democratic elections under such circumstances is nonsensical.

[than]

If the winner was a senator backed by PT there will be no question...

I understand that 91 senator against PT is not good for their business

[fab4]

No need to apologize to me. Just as long as we know that your implication that no democrat party canvassers could canvass in the north for fear of being murdered or beaten up was without foundation, that's fine.

Perhaps you don't understand; there is more foundation that democrat party canvassers cannot canvass in the north for fear of being murdered or beaten up than I care to list.

17 Feb, 2014 - PDRC Stage Near Wat Chet Yot Ripped Apart by Red Shirts

6 Jan, 2014 - Red Shirts Attack Anti-Government Protesters in Chiang Mai

15 Dec, 2013 - Reds surround Dem house, burn effigy in Ubon Ratchathani

And that's just in the span of a couple months (give or take a day or two).

This Red violence is quite distasteful, and really has no place in a modern world.

In the 2011 election alone, at least four canvassers were murdered. How many more were beaten or intimidated?

To argue that Thailand can have fair and free democratic elections under such circumstances is nonsensical.

We can go tit for tat if you like with me naming provinces in the south where it's unsafe to canvass and PDRC attacks in Bangkok but it will not detract from the fact that you stated that democratic party canvassers were murdered in the North with no foundation. It's a lie. End of.

[wolf5370]

It is a valid legal question and should be addressed. If it has no legal basis, then it will not proceed any further. I do note that the majority of votes came from Senators who were appointed by the former military dictatorship and Abhisit administration. That does cause a bit of a stench.

Is that not like saying, "I do note that most of the votes for any bill put through parliament of the last few years, votes came from PTP and PTP coalition partner MPs. That does cause a bit of a stench." - It would also be logical as they were the majority in the house - which is part of party type politics and thus democracy.

It is another delaying tactic. It will go nowhere and everyone knows that.

//EDIT: Typo

Edited May 11, 2014 by wolf5370

[robblok]

It is a valid legal question and should be addressed. If it has no legal basis, then it will not proceed any further. I do note that the majority of votes came from Senators who were appointed by the former military dictatorship and Abhisit administration. That does cause a bit of a stench.

Is that not like saying, "I do note that most of the votes for any bill put through parliament of the last few years, votes came from PTP and PTP coalition partner MPs. That does cause a bit of a stench." - It would also be logical as they were the majority in the house - which is part of party type politics and thus democracy.

It is another delaying tactic. It will go nowhere and everyone knows that.

//EDIT: Typo

These are just the last death rattles of this government. If they can delay the elections then this government will fail. With its major players gone and the rest slowly sinking it would then be time for real reforms.

But i doubt it will go easy.. and I also doubt the elections will come when they are now agreed upon.

[wolf5370]

It is a valid legal question and should be addressed. If it has no legal basis, then it will not proceed any further. I do note that the majority of votes came from Senators who were appointed by the former military dictatorship and Abhisit administration. That does cause a bit of a stench.

And if that then prompts questions about the legitimacy of Mr. Short time Poly Syllable's selection as temporary, interim, stand-in, substitute, acting , caretaker prime minister that ultimately leads to the political vacuum that some desire, dies that therefore leave us in a status of som nam na that you will accept?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

And you miss the point. If the argument for the removal of various government officials was that they violated the applicable constitutional laws, then those who are responsible for the removal must be compliant with the same constitutional laws.

In respect to the election of a senate president, it is tainted because a large number of senators assumed their position due to appointment of by the former military dictatorship and the Abhisit administration and they all voted for one of their own.. The battleground is over who controls the senate. The senate holds considerable power, particularly over the appointment of officials. If the military and Democrat faction can keep control of the Senate, they can keep manufacturing situations where any political party that is not aligned with it will keep being removed. The anti government faction wants to keep blocking the election and to appoint a "transition" government because many of the senators terms will expire within the next year. If they can gain control the government even if only for a year, they can influence the appointment of new senators and retain control of the senate.

Your argument is still weightless - the central point being that you don't like the senators that voted. They are senators regardless of how they got their seats and when. Many did not like the MPs that vote for bills, does not make their voting for bills illegitimate by that fact. If your point is that the senators in question are not legally holding their seats under the constitution, then why did PTP not have that brought up and them thrown out over the past 3 years? Because they are legitimate under the constitution, that's why. So liking or disliking them, means bugger all with respect to their stance. The Senate bill would have perhaps made it more palatable for you, maybe if PTP had not changed it to allow for nepotistic control the original bill would have gone through and there would now be elected senators.

Would they have been more legitimate if they had voted for the UDD desired candidate?

[soundman]

This is the second topic I have had to call for public calm.

Those who insist on bickering and starting a flame-fest will find their posting privileges arbitrarily removed.

Please debate in a civil manner.