Strava - Why I don't give a damn

[chiangmaiexpat]

Since a number of well-meaning friends have recently encouraged me to "put my stuff" on Strava, it's time for a rant. It's not going to happen and here is why.

Life is cycling; cycling is life. Riding down a trail, you have to adapt to what the trail brings. Sharp turns, rocks, roots, mud and slippery sections all have to be dealt with. Even if you know the trail, the conditions always change. Heraclit said that you cannot step into the same river twice. There is exploration, excitement, exhilaration, and exhaustion. And there is beauty: the occasional wildflower, bird, or snake on the trail. The hills. The sunsets. Obviously, Strava doesn't capture any of this which is the main problem: it's terribly limited.

All that Strava does capture is GPS data and time. How relevant is that? Undeniably, there is a correlation between skills and athletic ability and the speed with which you can complete a section. But the quantification is problematic. Rider A might have finished section S in 30 seconds less, but did he take the drop-off or the chicken bypass? Did he ride in dry or wet conditions? Did he stop to take a picture? The data that Strava provides is too limited for an objective measurement of ability to the degree it becomes almost irrelevant, at least for mountain biking.

Then there is what Strava calls "compare and compete". Of course, racing is fun and exciting, but only if there are real people on the course. Why should you or I care about how fast a complete stranger finishes a Strava segment? We can't even tell for sure whether the person or the data is real. In my view, racing against a virtual opponent only detracts you from what is important, which is always right here and now on the trail.

Mountain biking has many aspects of which racing is only one and even for that Strava is too limited. I use an offline GPS application for navigation and sometimes for tracking. I don't give a damn about recording pulse rate, training cycles, and accumulating similar useless data. So thanks, but not thanks. I already spent enough time with computers when I am not mountain biking.

Cheers, CM-Expat

[CNXBKKMAN]

My view on strava is its too hot in chiang mai to be riding flat out. Maybe it's good in the cool season. I don't use it.

[HooHaa]

pretty damngood as a personal benchmark on your own fitness, i could not care less where others rate.

[sendbaht]

Crap, so I guess connect.garmin fits in the same category. We all just want to see where you are riding.)

[ogb]

pretty damngood as a personal benchmark on your own fitness, i could not care less where others rate.

Agree its a great tool for tracking personal progress, and also to have a record of kilometres & courses.

Other benefits are finding places to ride in your area, finding other riders doing similar rides, and keeping track of your friends riding activities wherever they are in the world.

Its made cycling even more fun for me, and the only downside I see is the temptation to go beyond ones limits to beat a Strava time, but the type of person who does that is going to ride like that with or without Stava

Edited May 13, 2014 by ogb

[chiangmaiexpat]

We all just want to see where you are riding.

This is of course an important use case, but I would say there are other applications and web sites much better suited to this.

Strava does not even let you search for tracks without a full subscription. This means you have to submit personal data before you can do anything useful. Compare that to sites like everytrail.com or gpsies.com where you can search tracks by keyword or geographically (using a map) without registering and in the latter case even download GPS files without registration. gpsies.com may not be as polished as Strava, but it has far superior filtering options.

One problem with Strava is that there are thousands of sections I am not in the least interested in, such as commutes, or A-B road segments. You really have to sift through a lot of rubbish. This is where powerful filtering comes in and Strava simply lacks that. Another problem is that track description options are limited on Strava. For example, everytrail.com allows you to attach not just descriptions, but photos and even videos to individual waypoints. Fantastic if you are interested in the quality of a trail and not just how fast you can race it.

Last but not least, there is one piece of idiocy built into Strava which I shall call the Facebook paradigm: by default, all your data is uploaded and public. It should be exactly the other way round: tracks should be published only upon request and should be private unless explicitly made public. You know, forest rangers all over the world have discovered Strava, too. Now they have a nice tool to track down "illegal" trails and "illegal" riders.

Cheers, CM-Expat

[ogb]

We all just want to see where you are riding.

This is of course an important use case, but I would say there are other applications and web sites much better suited to this.

Strava does not even let you search for tracks without a full subscription. This means you have to submit personal data before you can do anything useful. Compare that to sites like everytrail.com or gpsies.com where you can search tracks by keyword or geographically (using a map) without registering and in the latter case even download GPS files without registration. gpsies.com may not be as polished as Strava, but it has far superior filtering options.

One problem with Strava is that there are thousands of sections I am not in the least interested in, such as commutes, or A-B road segments. You really have to sift through a lot of rubbish. This is where powerful filtering comes in and Strava simply lacks that. Another problem is that track description options are limited on Strava. For example, everytrail.com allows you to attach not just descriptions, but photos and even videos to individual waypoints. Fantastic if you are interested in the quality of a trail and not just how fast you can race it.

Last but not least, there is one piece of idiocy built into Strava which I shall call the Facebook paradigm: by default, all your data is uploaded and public. It should be exactly the other way round: tracks should be published only upon request and should be private unless explicitly made public. You know, forest rangers all over the world have discovered Strava, too. Now they have a nice tool to track down "illegal" trails and "illegal" riders.

Cheers, CM-Expat

You might be being a bit unnecessarily negative there CM-Expat as if a ranger can look up Strava what's to stop them looking up everytrail?

(ignoring the stupidity of posting illegal trails in the first place, and the separate argument about the desirability of riding 'illegal' trails when many are illegal for genuinely sound reasons)

We get it, you don't like Strava and you obviously have your reasons, but many others do like it.

( Horses for courses, live & let live........ )

[chiangmaiexpat]

You might be being a bit unnecessarily negative there CM-Expat as if a ranger can look up Strava what's to stop them looking up everytrail?

(ignoring the stupidity of posting illegal trails in the first place, and the separate argument about the desirability of riding 'illegal' trails when many are illegal for genuinely sound reasons)

The difference is that Strava posts it automatically, whereas you have to transfer and upload a track to everytrail.com explicitly. It takes deliberate stupidity to do the latter, but with Strava forgetfulness is enough to get you in trouble.

There are plenty of reasons why people ride "illegal" trails, or better trails that are not officially open for mountain bikers.

For example, the state of Baden-Württemberg in Germany has a law that prohibits two-wheeler traffic on forest paths smaller than 1m. This is an outdated law from the time before mountain biking became a popular sport. Theoretically, you can't ride single trail in Baden-Württemberg. In Bavaria, many alpine hiking paths are officially off-limits to mountain bikers. Needless to say many mountain bikers ignore these regulations. As long as they don't disturb others, they are silently tolerated, but the law is not on their side.

Now take a bunch of Strava snobs who think it's cool to compete on these trails and you create a perfect field of activity for overzealous law enforcers, ruining it for everybody else. I am not making this up. This has actually happened.

Cheers, CM-Expat

[ogb]

Your original gripe was somewhat contradictory as on the one hand you complained about lack of search function, lack of description detail, yet on the other hand said how easy it was for rangers to track illegal activities.

I'm not a subscriber so cannot comment on the enhanced search function you mentioned, but from what I understand the main search functions are either for 'segments' or 'athletes', and generally a 'segment' has to be specifically created by the user. So to create a segment on an illegal trail would indeed require stupidity.

(there is one exception I know where climbing segments are automatically created by Strava if it meets a certain grade & distance criteria but those circumstances are rare, and usually involve a hike up a steep climb. I would prefer if those segments were not automatically created but even if a ranger noticed them they would also see those segments are rarely used and are more likely walked than ridden)

The problem you mentioned about 'Strava snobs who think it's cool to compete on these trails' is not a Strava specific problem, it happened before Strava and would happen without Strava - do you really think forest rangers look at Strava to see if a trail is being ridden, rather than observing the actual forest & trails?

[chiangmaiexpat]

do you really think forest rangers look at Strava to see if a trail is being ridden, rather than observing the actual forest & trails?

Yes, they do. Not all forest rangers are technophobe hill-billies, you know. My own experience with them varies. I have met really friendly rangers who love to share their knowledge and their enthusiasm and I have met others who were hostile and treat you like an invader.

And yes, the rangers in Thailand also know what's going on on the Internet. Ask the people in the Chiang Mai hiking group, or the people from the Chiang Mai Mountain Biking company, for example, about their experiences. The situation in Thailand is somewhat different. The greatest concern of the rangers here seems to be how to generate an income from hikers or cyclists using "their" forest.

Now, since you brought it up: the crucial difference between everytrail, gpsies, etc. and Strava is that you can extract travel frequency data from Strava. So, if you know how to mine this data, you know where the "hot spots" are.

Cheers, CM-Expat

[ogb]

do you really think forest rangers look at Strava to see if a trail is being ridden, rather than observing the actual forest & trails?

Yes, they do. Not all forest rangers are technophobe hill-billies, you know. My own experience with them varies. I have met really friendly rangers who love to share their knowledge and their enthusiasm and I have met others who were hostile and treat you like an invader.

And yes, the rangers in Thailand also know what's going on on the Internet. Ask the people in the Chiang Mai hiking group, or the people from the Chiang Mai Mountain Biking company, for example, about their experiences. The situation in Thailand is somewhat different. The greatest concern of the rangers here seems to be how to generate an income from hikers or cyclists using "their" forest.

Now, since you brought it up: the crucial difference between everytrail, gpsies, etc. and Strava is that you can extract travel frequency data from Strava. So, if you know how to mine this data, you know where the "hot spots" are.

Cheers, CM-Expat

Lets hope they are that sophisticated as I'm all for protecting the forests, and its obvious that mountain bikers & hikers are way down the scale when it comes to the damage caused by invaders to the forests.

[el jefe]

It's not always about protecting the forest. Sometimes it's about protecting other interests.

I rarely mountain bike on Doi Suthep / Pui but I've been hiking there for almost 9 years. I'm sure most people have seen the pot farm that was there a couple of years ago, and it was only about 5 or 6 years ago that the military destroyed what may, or may not, have been the last poppy field on the mountain.

[ianf]

In the UK (and I guess elsewhere) Strava appears to have supplanted or ruined club life. Go on a group ride and suddenly the pace increases like a race. Why? "They're doing a Strava segment." I know peeps who have got dropped by such a group and never went back to ride with them. Sure, a fast moving group is nice to be part of, but racing people who are doing 'segments' is totally nonsensical. The one thing I like about Strava is that it keeps me in contact with clubmates in the UK whilst I'm here in Thailand. The club Strava group, throughout the UK winter, sees me leading distance and longest ride. Well I'm retired and all I do is ride. These guys/gals I am beating are also holding down full time jobs. No contest! I think it has inspired many of the same clubmates to do longer rides. So it can be useful, fun or whatever. Also good for making contacts. I met some guys in Indonesia through Strava and found out about routes and group rides in Java. Overall it has got its' uses but the problem that I see with it is that people become obsessed. So the original poster is on the ball here because it should not supplant the sheer enjoyment of riding.

[bobfish]

I like most aspects of Strava.

I don't care for twitter, facebook, pinit or warm beer. And, I can't be bothered to tell you why

Going for a ride.

[bobfish]

Thanks CMEx; I've been thinking about my Strava fetish [while riding of course] , and the following quote from bicycling.com probably sums up the major downside points;

LOVE HATE
Collyn Ahart, a brand strategist, advertising planner at Wieden+Kennedy, and amateur racer, unpacks her complicated relationship with Strava.

Inspiration/Obsession
Strava is a reason to push harder, to suffer more, to set and pursue goals. But it has also, on rides that I've been on, ruined a good patch of blackberries. On a segment, there's no pausing to Instagram that cute pony.

The Guide/Taskmaster
When we travel to an unknown area, Strava is a wonderful navigational tool, and also uncovers overlooked local gems. But the more common outcome is that we ride the same segments week after week, mastering local roads at the expense of adventure.

The Party Host/Jailer
A genuine sense of community and shared experience is generated by comparing times, efforts, and relative improvements. But this often doesn't translate into in-person interaction. The relationship we cyclists enjoy online seems to be just enough to keep us from seeking out and developing full, rounded riding relationships with each other in real life—the way we did when clubs and weekly group rides were mainly how we met with, and competed with, others.

The Motivator/Frustrator
On the weekends, a stream of "Uh oh! Rachel Fastashell just stole your QOM" messages flood my inbox. Sometimes these notifications spur me to get out to those routes during the next week, but sometimes, especially when they interrupt an otherwise enjoyable Sunday evening, e-mails trumpeting someone else's success at my expense feel more dispiriting than anything.

This excerpt is taken from a rather longer dissertation in bicycling.com titled The Strava Files. Maybe worth googling.

On balance, it's just about fun and common sense.

Edited May 27, 2014 by bobfish

[Lockheed]

For example, everytrail.com allows you to attach not just descriptions, but photos and even videos to individual waypoints. Fantastic if you are interested in the quality of a trail and not just how fast you can race it.

By the way, you can put photo's on Strava via Instagram and they are geo-referenced so they are the same as waypoints.

EveryTrail is pretty clunky these days, not long back I couldn't upload for weeks, so I'd be using two platforms, the only reason I use Everytrail is because it's easy to share GPS data.

I forgot to mention, if you don't like your data being seen then switch it to private.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Lockheed

[bobfish]

A bit further on this topic, I just bought a new shiny steed and the bike shop threw in a Cateye Stealth 50 computer. The Cateye is Strava compatible [although so far I can't upload HR and Cadence], but it is optimised for Cateye Atlas where I could upload the traces for HR and cadence as well as the usual speed, altitude etc.

Cateye Atlas seems like a lite version of Strava with no segments and a limited number of users. But, it does seem user friendly for photo/video synch via their INUO system and also for GPX sharing. So there appears to be a lot of Strava-like apps/programs out there along with Garmin Connect. All I know of have privacy settings.

Enough from me !! Don't want to become a Stravaddict, or worse; a Stravasshole!

Edited May 27, 2014 by bobfish

[i claudius]

Cycling should be carried out anywhere but on the public highway , all cyclists should be insured and it should be an offence to wear lycra shorts and all the other stupid stuff they wear.

[bobfish]

Cycling should be carried out anywhere but on the public highway , all cyclists should be insured and it should be an offence to wear lycra shorts and all the other stupid stuff they wear.

Yeah whatever.

When in Rome - I do draw the line at wearing a Toga.....

[Lockheed]

EveryTrail is pretty clunky these days, not long back I couldn't upload for weeks,

Everytrail is offline at present, I want some data but no can do, hopefully I'll get by tomorrow.