Foreign owner died after purchasing house/land in Thai partners name

[steven ber]

Hello all, I hope this is the right forum for this question, would the 'ask a lawyer' forum be better?

An English friend died in Thailand a few weeks ago, he'd lived there with his Thai partner (not married, no kids) for 9-10 years and about 5 years ago he purchased a house and the land it was on, both in the name of his Thai partner.

Another friend in England told me that under English law, there is a maximum 'gift' allowance in England of £3000 per year, and that if a house was given as a gift, then the person died, the receiver of the gift would be subject to inheritance tax, minus £3000 for every year they'd owned the gifted house.

eg.

House value = £500,000

House given as gift 5 years ago, so £15,000 allowed as gift.

So, inheritance tax would be due on £485,000

These rules are to stop 'gifts' from being a way to avoid inheritance tax.

I've briefly looked into inheritance tax in Thailand, and unless I've been looking at the wrong info, it seems there's no inheritance tax on cash, but a 2% tax on property inherited. (is this correct?)

Are there any such 'gift' rules in Thailand?

I'm flying from the UK to Thailand tomorrow night to try to find my friend's Will, his Thai partner doesn't seem to understand the problems they face if the Will can't be found (there are distant direct blood relatives, his dead brother had 2 daughters, though no contact for 25 years), and if no Will found, the Thai Partner has no money and very expensive medication, I need to understand where they stand regarding the house and land.

(If the Will is found, or I can find something that leads me to the Will - maybe his solicitor's name - then everything will go to his Thai partner, but without it, it'll all go to the distant family he never got on with)

[AnotherOneAmerican]

The house belongs to the Thai partner.

English law doesn't apply in Thailand.

English inheritance laws have no power in Thailand.

500,000 English pounds = 25 Million Baht = One hell of a house!

Edited May 13, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[steven ber]

Apologies, I should have explained more.

As Ian died in Thailand and had been living there for 10 years, then Thai law applies, I was only giving the English law as an example.

Under Thai law, if no Will found, then everything goes to the distant relatives and the Thai partner gets nothing.

The Thai house and land most likely cost less that £100,000.

I need to explain to the Thai Partner if the 2% property inheritance rule would apply, even though the gift was about 5 years ago.

[bartender100]

If its in the Thai partners name, the land and the house, its hers I would have thought, different if it was in his name and she as staking a claim, how can it be any other way? How can a distant relative have any claim on a house owned by a Thai?

[steve187]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

Edited May 13, 2014 by steve187

[steven ber]

The distant relative will have no claim on the house.

The reason I give the example in English law was to show that governments often bring in new rules to counter attempts to avoid inheritance tax.

If Mr. Farang decided on his death bed to give his house away 5 minutes before he died, would that avoid the 2% house inheritance tax/duty?

I can't imagine that would be the case, so I'm wondering what measures were taken to avoid this kind of thing happening, for example, could there be a rule that any 'gift' (of a house) would still be liable for the 2% tax/duty if the gift was given less than 1 year ago, or maybe 2 years ago, or even 5 years.

[JesseFrank]

The distant relative will have no claim on the house.

The reason I give the example in English law was to show that governments often bring in new rules to counter attempts to avoid inheritance tax.

If Mr. Farang decided on his death bed to give his house away 5 minutes before he died, would that avoid the 2% house inheritance tax/duty?

I can't imagine that would be the case, so I'm wondering what measures were taken to avoid this kind of thing happening, for example, could there be a rule that any 'gift' (of a house) would still be liable for the 2% tax/duty if the gift was given less than 1 year ago, or maybe 2 years ago, or even 5 years.

You can't give anything away that isn't yours.

[sustento]

If the house is 'in the Thai partner's name' he never owned the house in the first place so it wasn't his to give away.

[steven ber]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

Now there's a good point.

A vehicle (if in farang's name) and any bank accounts (in farang's sole name) are subject to the conditions of the Will, and don't automatically go to the Thai partner.

I froze all UK bank accounts and stopped his 2 pensions (worryingly, all without a death certificate), the Thai authorities froze his Thai bank accounts after the partner reported the death to the Thai consulate.

I've another question if you all don't mind.

The Thai partner said Ian had to pay 800,000Baht to get his retirement visa, as a kind of retainer or insurance or something, will this be refundable?

[Farma]

Death Duty and Gift Tax There is no death duty or gift tax in Thailand, although transfers of land and buildings by gift or inheritance are subject to transfer fees

From THAILAND BUSINESS AND LEGAL GUIDE http://www.bia.co.th/019.html

Personally I think you are looking for things that don't exist. The house and land are in the partners name, any transfer fees would have been paid 5 years ago, end of story.

[steven ber]

If the house is 'in the Thai partner's name' he never owned the house in the first place so it wasn't his to give away.

Very good point, I hadn't thought of that.

If my understanding of Thai inheritance law is correct (no tax on cash), then the cash used to buy the house couldn't be considered as a way to avoid tax as there would be no tax due.

Could never get away with that in the UK.

[JesseFrank]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

Now there's a good point.

A vehicle (if in farang's name) and any bank accounts (in farang's sole name) are subject to the conditions of the Will, and don't automatically go to the Thai partner.

I froze all UK bank accounts and stopped his 2 pensions (worryingly, all without a death certificate), the Thai authorities froze his Thai bank accounts after the partner reported the death to the Thai consulate.

I've another question if you all don't mind.

The Thai partner said Ian had to pay 800,000Baht to get his retirement visa, as a kind of retainer or insurance or something, will this be refundable?

May I ask why you stopped his 2 pensions ? I would think that his legal wife would have right on that .

[ThaidDown]

^^ There's nothing 'to getaway with' since there is no inheritance tax in Thailand. However some one receiving an inheritance could be liable for income tax.

But, as already said this would in no way apply in this case since the property did not belong to the deceased.

[steven ber]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

Now there's a good point.

A vehicle (if in farang's name) and any bank accounts (in farang's sole name) are subject to the conditions of the Will, and don't automatically go to the Thai partner.

I froze all UK bank accounts and stopped his 2 pensions (worryingly, all without a death certificate), the Thai authorities froze his Thai bank accounts after the partner reported the death to the Thai consulate.

I've another question if you all don't mind.

The Thai partner said Ian had to pay 800,000Baht to get his retirement visa, as a kind of retainer or insurance or something, will this be refundable?

May I ask why you stopped his 2 pensions ? I would think that his legal wife would have right on that .

3 reasons.

1, it's the right thing to do.

2, it would avoid any potential problems/delay regarding the Will

3, to find out if any of those organisations were holding the Will.

If his Will isn't in Thailand (very unlikely), then it can only be with his UK solicitor, and after 11 days of trying everything imaginable, I still don't know his solicitors name, that's the main reason I'm coming to Thailand, to go through his paperwork, UK sim card, address book (Thai partner says they can't find any of these things), and his laptop to try to get any leads.

[steven ber]

Sorry, forgot to add, no legal wife, no wife, and no kids.

[harrry]

You are of course paying your own airfare.

Property in Thailand must be probated by the Thai court not the English one. You of course have no claim to any of this to pay your fares.

[steven ber]

The fare to Thailand was raised via a crowd funding website.......only joking.

Of course I'm paying my own fare, this man was a fantastic friend for 32 years, and a friend when I really needed him, the very least I can do is try to sort out this mess, though I admit, not a single friend in the UK thinks I can achieve anything by going, but as all the leads have lead nowhere, I can either do nothing or go to Thailand.

[neverdie]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

Now there's a good point.

A vehicle (if in farang's name) and any bank accounts (in farang's sole name) are subject to the conditions of the Will, and don't automatically go to the Thai partner.

I froze all UK bank accounts and stopped his 2 pensions (worryingly, all without a death certificate), the Thai authorities froze his Thai bank accounts after the partner reported the death to the Thai consulate.

I've another question if you all don't mind.

The Thai partner said Ian had to pay 800,000Baht to get his retirement visa, as a kind of retainer or insurance or something, will this be refundable?

Steven.

Regarding the 800,000 baht.

That money isn't paid to anyone, but rather it is required for Ian to have at least that amount in his savings account when he applies to Thai immigration for his annual visa extension.

The money must be in his account for at least 3 months prior to each visa extension.

Some people in his shoes, just leave the 800k in an account, all year round, while others only ensure,there's 800k in the account during the 3 mon lead up to the annual visa extension, then they use the account down and make sure the funds are replenished, 3 months before the next extension.....and so forth.

The money should be in his account, not withstanding that he may have used it down, pending on how he was doing things.

I hope this answers your question.

[I Like Thai]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

Now there's a good point.

A vehicle (if in farang's name) and any bank accounts (in farang's sole name) are subject to the conditions of the Will, and don't automatically go to the Thai partner.

I froze all UK bank accounts and stopped his 2 pensions (worryingly, all without a death certificate), the Thai authorities froze his Thai bank accounts after the partner reported the death to the Thai consulate.

I've another question if you all don't mind.

The Thai partner said Ian had to pay 800,000Baht to get his retirement visa, as a kind of retainer or insurance or something, will this be refundable?

How did you manage to do this ? I thought you were just a friend and not one of his relations that he didn't get along with.

[Langsuan Man]

Another example of why you should have a Thai Will, when will people ever learn

[IBoldnewguy]

Are you the executor of the deceased's estate? Do you have legal documents declaring so? Being a long time good friend does not give one legal authority. Why would a Thai Bank or agency be obligated to give you any information? If he has a bank balance, why would they give it to you?

I'm coming to Thailand, to go through his paperwork, UK sim card, address book (Thai partner says they can't find any of these things), and his laptop to try to get any leads.

It does not sound as if you been invited by the Thai partner to search the property.... The idea that you can just arrive in Thailand and the partner is obligated to cooperate with you is not well thought out.

Edited May 14, 2014 by IBoldnewguy

[Thai Travel Bug]

1. No harm I guess in coming over to "SORT OUT" your friends estate with his Thai partner who you stated has no idea of what is going on.

Maybe his Thai wife should actually have her solicitor with her whilst you are handing out your advice.

His life by his choice was made in Thailand, he has a Thai wife who if legally married will have automatic right to anything owned and bank accounts in Thailand.

No one else can touchy touchy....save the airfare, it sounds like you don't know what you are entering into, nor does it sound as if you can "HELP"

[alfieconn]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

But the land and house were bought with money (gift) given to her by the OP's friend so in theory there is inheritance tax to pay.

1. How would the British gov get the money from a Thai living in Thailand ?

2. Is this a way to avoid inheritance tax ? I.e. send all your money from the UK to your Thai wife in Thailand when your time is coming.

[bartender100]

1. No harm I guess in coming over to "SORT OUT" your friends estate with his Thai partner who you stated has no idea of what is going on.
2. Maybe his Thai wife should actually have her solicitor with her whilst you are handing out your advice.
3. His life by his choice was made in Thailand, he has a Thai wife who if legally married will have automatic right to anything owned and bank accounts in Thailand.
4. No one else can touchy touchy....save the airfare, it sounds like you don't know what you are entering into, nor does it sound as if you can "HELP"

Not his wife, read the OP first before you post a reply might help

[rak sa_ngop]

It looks to me like part of the gift made 5 years ago is still subject to UK inheritance tax.

But firstly there is the 3,000 GBP a year gift allowance.

Secondly there is a nil tax threshold of 325,000 GBP.

And thirdly there is taper relief which reduces the tax by 60 or 80 percent in years 5 and 6 after the gift was made.

So probably some UK tax to pay at 40 pc on the gift.

So maybe the tax man will claw this back either from the UK estate, or maybe try and get it from the Thai giftee.

One for the lawyers!.

[casualbiker]

Well to be clear. The land and house belong to the partner .. it wasn't a gift he would have signed paperwork stating that ( if involved at all) the Thai bank accounts could go to the partner if she can prove she was cohabiting as man and wife for 3 years or more. Anything in the Uk is relevant to a will.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited May 14, 2014 by casualbiker

[Canada]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

But the land and house were bought with money (gift) given to her by the OP's friend so in theory there is inheritance tax to pay.

1. How would the British gov get the money from a Thai living in Thailand ?

2. Is this a way to avoid inheritance tax ? I.e. send all your money from the UK to your Thai wife in Thailand when your time is coming.

When a partner of a farang buys a property here, the farang signs a document stating that he did not buy the property and that the property is not "marital property".

[Briggsy]

The extra inheritance tax liability fallls upon the estate first not the recipient of the gift. It will be up to the executor of the will to sort out.

However it sounds like the deceased was not ordinarily resident in the UK for tax purposes and probate may not be applied for in the UK so the liability may not arise.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Hmmmmmmm, with friends like you he wouldn't have needed many enemies.

You are not related to him, his Thai partner has not requested your help.

If I were her I would invite you to mind your own business.

If I were her I would suspect your motives.

Outrageous that you had his accounts frozen and pension stopped.

[kaorop]

1. No harm I guess in coming over to "SORT OUT" your friends estate with his Thai partner who you stated has no idea of what is going on.
2. Maybe his Thai wife should actually have her solicitor with her whilst you are handing out your advice.
3. His life by his choice was made in Thailand, he has a Thai wife who if legally married will have automatic right to anything owned and bank accounts in Thailand.
4. No one else can touchy touchy....save the airfare, it sounds like you don't know what you are entering into, nor does it sound as if you can "HELP"

is someone is looking for a kickback for those "32 yrs" and not representing forthrightly?

advice on thai visa is free but not always correct or helpful

could be another paid troll thread, which are so prominent here these days