If you have online buisness wouldn't you also need work permit if running in Thailand?

[Oceanbat]

It's all about tax residence. If you RESIDE in a tax jurisdiction then you should be paying tax on ALL income derived in that jurisdiction and from any overseas sources. Usually it's residence of 180 days or more (each country has a different definition of residence so it may be more days or maybe less).

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Tchooptip]

link to the other thread please?

This is the discussion with the young American fellow, who has been abusing the 30 day entry, is not a tourist, is running an online business whilst his arse (ass if you're American) is parked here in the Kingdom,.. and not paying any tax. The topic was closed before I had a chance to tell him that I hope he get's caught and screwed,

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/725758-so-can-i-stay-in-thailand/?utm_source=newsletter-20140514-0758&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=featured

If you ever consider changing your user name, may I suggest Pious?

Personally I would suggest embittered, but as you said its only suggestion

[chrisinth]

Just my thought on the matter.............

As others have said already, it is a grey area, or at least should be. If however someone makes statements that they are involved in online business while residing in Thailand, then IMHO they are fools.

What makes it such a grey area is actually proving it with existing IT laws. If for example the said person's website was registered on a server in another country (not Thailand) and that website was accessed through proxy, bypassing the Thai ISP, then it is very difficult for the authorities to track. Add encryption to this and the offender's footprint is very small.

Certainly it can be done, but it would have to be on an extremely large scale for authorities to be interested in the first place if not directly related to terrorism or "actual" criminal activities.

It is possible for me to remotely access our server in Thailand, by proxy, and carry out a days work from practically any country in the world that has connection to the internet. It is extremely common practice, even without using proxy. Would I be in breach of that countries labour laws by doing so? Possibly, but I have often done it.

[Soutpeel]

Let put me put the answer to this question in very simple terms everyone understands in terms of the law as it stands

If you get caught doing what ever its your doing and the Thai immigration/Labor official who is looking at your "case" decides your working, your working...its really is that simple.

Further a year or two ago Phuket Immigration/DOL and stated categorically that in terms of their jurisdiction, people working on line in Thailand require a work permit, nothing to do with where your getting paid, who or where your customers are.

[gbswales]

Thanks for the replies The laws and rules sometimes bit confusing here. But at least now getting to better understand what's what in the LOS.

wouldn't it pretty much be the rule in most countries - certainly in the UK it would count as running a business. Even selling stuff on ebay is a business if you go beyond selling your personally owned items.

[CNX66]

Yes, OP, you would be correct. I read that same thread this morning and found it odd that people were trying to help this guy break the law. If an expat is working in Thailand, he/she must have a work permit. Does not matter if the work is related to Thailand or not. From the Thai Embassy website:

"Foreigners entering Thailand are not permitted to work, regardless of their type of visa, unless they are granted a work permit. Those who intend to work in Thailand must hold the correct type of visa to be eligible to apply for a work permit."

In my opinion can I do work for my European company en with my European customers online by internet/mail/telephone from my condo at Thailand? I don't need a workpermit for that?

nope .......try explaining to your bank manager why youre getting daily payments from paypal transferred into your thai account ....if you dont live or

work here

To clarify; it's like working form home (no line company by the way):

- My company is in Europe

- Company bank account in Europe

- Clients of my company are in Europe.

- Transactions, deliveries and projects are in Europe.

- Only Thai financial connection is the money I will spend privately (to live, eat and enjoy). Business acount Europe - to private account Europe - to private account Thailand.

- Only 2-3 times a year I will be in Thailand (upmost 9 weeks a year).

No:

- Thai customers

- Thai exports

- Thai imports

- Employee for a Thai firm

Excuses for my bad English (precaution because I see many people get offended in Thaivisa when they are not native English).

[JLCrab]

When you apply for a Tourist Visa in any Thai Embassy / Consulate you sign the follwoing statement:

You declare that the purpose of your visit to Thailand is for pleasure only and that in no case shall you engage yourself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

So even if your server, your clients, and your payment remains outside of Thailand, if your are in Thailand managing that business it would appear that you are not in compliance with the above declaration.

[CNX66]

It's all about tax residence. If you RESIDE in a tax jurisdiction then you should be paying tax on ALL income derived in that jurisdiction and from any overseas sources. Usually it's residence of 180 days or more (each country has a different definition of residence so it may be more days or maybe less).

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I think in my situation this is important: "Usually it's residence of 180 days or more (each country has a different definition of residence so it may be more days or maybe less)." Just because I do pay my taxes but in Europe as I am a Europan citizen. If you live permanently in Thailand I do understand that you have to pay your taxes there on behalve of personal income/residence.

[arthurwait]

If you have no reason to be here other than you want to be, then you are a tourist.

[SandyFeet]

I will say though that Thailand certainly doesn't make it easy for online entrepreneurs to work here. Even Thai startups now often register abroad. http://www.techinasia.com/successful-startup-settle-thailand-register-company/

People should follow the law, but the law should not put insurmountable barriers up. Anyway, thanks again for the link!

One suspects its very easy for online entrepreneurs to work here, if your Thai citizen, why should they make it easy for people to work, who are non-citizens, who arrive as tourists typically to set up shop and don't employ any Thai citizens, don't pay taxes in Thailand, (because they are getting paid outside the country) and are basically not contributing to Thailand economic development or "up lifting" its nationals

why should they allow non-citizens to set up shop? Well it seems to work pretty well for other countries. And they most certainly do contribute to the Thai economy. The other thread we're talking about, an American guy with an online business, if he were working in another country, the Thai economy wouldn't see a baht of his money. With him living here I imagine it sees most of it. The reason someone like that doesn't pay taxes is because it's too difficult to register the business. Businesses tend to grow or die, and with growth comes hiring. If the procedure were made less onerous, these people would pay taxes, would hire Thai citizens, and would contribute to the economy (even more than they already do).

I'm not trying to fight about this, but you seem lack an understanding of some of the fundamentals of economics

[speedtripler]

If you have no reason to be here other than you want to be, then you are a tourist.

the average definition of tourist doesnt spend the whole year or best part of it in thailand ,year after year

theyre going to ask at some stage where is the money coming from ?

is it not weird would anyone even ask this question if they were only coming here for a legitimate holiday?

[arthurwait]

If you have no reason to be here other than you want to be, then you are a tourist.

the average definition of tourist doesnt spend the whole year or best part of it in thailand ,year after year

theyre going to ask at some stage where is the money coming from ?

is it not weird would anyone even ask this question if they were only coming here for a legitimate holiday?

Yep.

How many countries can you just turn up in and live without contributing anything or reason to be there ?

[casualbiker]

It all depends where the money has been accepted, if in the US then tax there, if in Thailand than work permit and tax here.

Remember many people come here for vacation etc. they answer business emails while they are here and it isn't illegal yet they are still doing work of sorts, running an online business from Thailand doesn't need a work permit if all the legalities are in another country, but that countries legalities will need to be dealt with.

Its a grey area for sure and all these idiots saying open a company employ 4 thais and get a work permit are ridiculous because someone may only be making 60,000 baht a month more than enough to love comfortably here in Thailand but not enough to cover all the costs associated with opening a company employing 4 thais and paying the fees associated.

Like I said its a very grey area that Thailand has not considered since its still fairly new.

Someone who logs on and does some work online which is based in UK USA or any other country and then takes the money there but lives in Thailand how can they be considered working in Thailand.

Simple answer to this MAKE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE TO BECOME LEGAL

Cambodia does

Simple solution is to go to freakin Cambodia and be legal. Why do people want to come to Thailand and try to change the laws for their own personal benefit? These people should know what the laws are coming in and if they have a problem with that, go somewhere else.

Ever tried getting a work permit?

getting a work permit for web based work with the server and payment OUTSIDE of Thailand ...Do us all a favor and pop down your local immigration and inquire .. would be interesting!

The guy in question is a knob simply for not getting a long term visa.. that's all!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[casualbiker]

If you have no reason to be here other than you want to be, then you are a tourist.

the average definition of tourist doesnt spend the whole year or best part of it in thailand ,year after year

theyre going to ask at some stage where is the money coming from ?

is it not weird would anyone even ask this question if they were only coming here for a legitimate holiday?

Yep.

How many countries can you just turn up in and live without contributing anything or reason to be there ?

UK. There they give you money, housing and free medical!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Tatsujin]

Not much Thais can do about it.If you don't sell here, and the comes in via Pay Pall, how can they find out.Just my thought.

Lots of ways to find out, including reading TV, or being a website builder and calling yourself "freelance" whilst working here illegally. Love that it's all written out in the search results when you do a search, makes immigration's job so much easier when they decide to crackdown.

[speedtripler]

If you have no reason to be here other than you want to be, then you are a tourist.

the average definition of tourist doesnt spend the whole year or best part of it in thailand ,year after year

theyre going to ask at some stage where is the money coming from ?

is it not weird would anyone even ask this question if they were only coming here for a legitimate holiday?

Yep.

How many countries can you just turn up in and live without contributing anything or reason to be there ?

UK. There they give you money, housing and free medical!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

republic of ireland and maybe france too but thats not the thai issue

if they started allowing anyone to live here as a 1 man business can you

imagine how many would end up here? ,beer and hookers all day ,broke after a

few months

then the embassy would be called on to clear up whatever mess they get into

and get them back home again .........something im sure the embassys would

not want to have to deal with

if such a permit were introduced ,it would have to be prohibitively expensive to avoid

openig the flood gates for eurotrash and ameritrash

[JLCrab]

Thailand provides many incentives for those who wish to come here and set-up software/online companies that will employ Thais. If they make it too easy for the guy with an offshore business, clients, and payments to work here legally, it provides a dis-incentive for those to make the investments that is the government policy.

As to the how do they catch you, one way will be that they ask if the declaration you made on your Tourist visa application is true because that is when they have you standing right in front of them; not trying to catch you in the act in your condo or shared office space.

Edited May 14, 2014 by JLCrab

[Ace of Pop]

I can remember many years ago a friend asked his rich family for proof his income. Reply came back from his Mother..We don't justify ourselves to Foreign People. Just Leave..... Must admit ive felt a bit like that Myself. after 300 copies of Paper all stating the same reply for 25 Years just for Marry Extension and then they sell the paper as scrap ....

[CNX66]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

When you apply for a Tourist Visa in any Thai Embassy / Consulate you sign the follwoing statement:

You declare that the purpose of your visit to Thailand is for pleasure only and that in no case shall you engage yourself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

So even if your server, your clients, and your payment remains outside of Thailand, if your are in Thailand managing that business it would appear that you are not in compliance with the above declaration.

If you have no reason to be here other than you want to be, then you are a tourist.

:-). Both true.

[wvavin]

Kind of sick of all these arguments. Just continue to do whatever you think is all right for you but just don't get caught. Clear?

[mark j grygiel]

Yes, you do.

[Timwin]

Further a year or two ago Phuket Immigration/DOL and stated categorically that in terms of their jurisdiction, people working on line in Thailand require a work permit, nothing to do with where your getting paid, who or where your customers are.

Typical BS from Soutpeel. We have many threads in Thaivisa about online work. Even the law firms say, it is a grey area and immigration officials are not interested on arresting online workers. You simply cannot get a work permit for online work. Period. If the customers and the money are earned outside of Thailand, they are not interested.

Soutpeel has been commenting total BS on similar threads many times. I don't know what is his problem with this but he always shows up with his scaremongering BS in these threads. Even wishes for jail time for those online workers! Really a piece of work! Crackdown threads is his another specialty.

Many people have tried to get work permit by going to the immigration and/or labour ministry and explained their situation. The answer has been always the same, they are not interested unless you have Thai customers or selling stuff to Thais via Ebay with merchandise at your home. In any case, you need to employ 4 Thais and you cannot even own the majority of the shares of your own company, if you want a work permit.

From their point of view, an online worker is not competing directly with Thais and bringing money to Thailand anyway. Win-win for both parties. Same as any farang spending his savings here except your savings are replenished abroad. Same same but different !

Edited May 14, 2014 by Timwin

[Smurkster]

If i were a person who bought and sold stocks listed on NYSE and had the money put into an AMERICAN account and used that money to life in Thailand, I would think that you may not need a work permit for that as you are not using Thai banks or involving monies in anyway shape or form in the Kingdom, maybe I'm completely wrong

on second look I see someone already spoke of this

Edited May 14, 2014 by Smurkster

[Smurkster]

It all depends where the money has been accepted, if in the US then tax there, if in Thailand than work permit and tax here.

Remember many people come here for vacation etc. they answer business emails while they are here and it isn't illegal yet they are still doing work of sorts, running an online business from Thailand doesn't need a work permit if all the legalities are in another country, but that countries legalities will need to be dealt with.

Its a grey area for sure and all these idiots saying open a company employ 4 thais and get a work permit are ridiculous because someone may only be making 60,000 baht a month more than enough to love comfortably here in Thailand but not enough to cover all the costs associated with opening a company employing 4 thais and paying the fees associated.

Like I said its a very grey area that Thailand has not considered since its still fairly new.

Someone who logs on and does some work online which is based in UK USA or any other country and then takes the money there but lives in Thailand how can they be considered working in Thailand.

Simple answer to this MAKE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE TO BECOME LEGAL

Cambodia does

Simple solution is to go to freakin Cambodia and be legal. Why do people want to come to Thailand and try to change the laws for their own personal benefit? These people should know what the laws are coming in and if they have a problem with that, go somewhere else.

Ever tried getting a work permit?

getting a work permit for web based work with the server and payment OUTSIDE of Thailand ...Do us all a favor and pop down your local immigration and inquire .. would be interesting!

The guy in question is a knob simply for not getting a long term visa.. that's all!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

From what I gather the only ways to get long term visas are

A. Married to THai National

B. Taking care of Thai national chld

C. Being employed by Thai COmpany

D. Retired

In many other countries you can buy long term visas, this doesn't seem to be the case in Thailand..you have to have some sort of qualifying position to be able to get one

[lineofentry]

Online working is impossible to police (tax) if the revenue streams are paid in another country. The Thai authorities, or any other country's authorities come to that, will not be wasting time on this one. You could be sitting in a boat in the middle of the ocean running your business, it's the www &lt;deleted&gt;.

[ggt]

Your friend made the ultimate mistake...talking too much...will probably be turned in by some of his so-called friends...best to keep mum about internet activity..."don't ask...don't tell"...if you are not going to go the work permit route...

[Timwin]

"He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473613-working-legally-in-thailand-immigration-and-labour-departments-speaks-out/

Head of the Work Permit Department at the Labor Office Rhuchuchai Potha and Immigration Investigative Division officer Witthaya Singmanee at the Imperial Mae Ping on Wednesday, June 7, 2011.

[Strangebrew]

Thanks again for all the comments I guess it would be a grey area much like myself a little grey around the edges. But it still good to know.

[Soutpeel]

Further a year or two ago Phuket Immigration/DOL and stated categorically that in terms of their jurisdiction, people working on line in Thailand require a work permit, nothing to do with where your getting paid, who or where your customers are.

Typical BS from Soutpeel. We have many threads in Thaivisa about online work. Even the law firms say, it is a grey area and immigration officials are not interested on arresting online workers. You simply cannot get a work permit for online work. Period. If the customers and the money are earned outside of Thailand, they are not interested.

Soutpeel has been commenting total BS on similar threads many times. I don't know what is his problem with this but he always shows up with his scaremongering BS in these threads. Even wishes for jail time for those online workers! Really a piece of work! Crackdown threads is his another specialty.

Many people have tried to get work permit by going to the immigration and/or labour ministry and explained their situation. The answer has been always the same, they are not interested unless you have Thai customers or selling stuff to Thais via Ebay with merchandise at your home. In any case, you need to employ 4 Thais and you cannot even own the majority of the shares of your own company, if you want a work permit.

From their point of view, an online worker is not competing directly with Thais and bringing money to Thailand anyway. Win-win for both parties. Same as any farang spending his savings here except your savings are replenished abroad. Same same but different !

Per the quoted articles Just for emphasis: I have highlighted the names and positions who made these statements, and their relevant quotes just in case your are hard of reading or don't know how to open a link

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=180

Sunbelt Asia - Posted 2011-06-22 10:38:21

"Working from home without a work permit is illegal"

1. Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration:

"If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court"

2. Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so"

3. Phuket Provincial Employment Services Office

Question: I am a commodity trader and use the Internet for my work. My financial dealings are conducted in Australia. I am thinking of coming to Thailand to stay for short time – about three months. My question is, can I still do my trading via the Internet in Thailand without breaking any laws? Theoretically, I shan't be working in Thailand.

Answer To do any work in Thailand you must either set up a company or partnership and apply for a work prmit, or find someone willing to employ you and to apply for a work permit for you. Otherwise you will be working illegally.We suggest that you do not work during your three-month stay in Phuket

Now may I humble you take a trip to Phuket, find the above mentioned people and tell them like Soutpeel, they are talking BS

Now toddle off my little friend and troll someone else....

[ukrules]

link to the other thread please?

This is the discussion with the young American fellow, who has been abusing the 30 day entry, is not a tourist, is running an online business whilst his arse (ass if you're American) is parked here in the Kingdom,.. and not paying any tax. The topic was closed before I had a chance to tell him that I hope he get's caught and screwed,

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/725758-so-can-i-stay-in-thailand/?utm_source=newsletter-20140514-0758&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=featured

Thanks, haven't gotten round to reading it yet so don't know the specifics. I will say though that Thailand certainly doesn't make it easy for online entrepreneurs to work here. Even Thai startups now often register abroad. http://www.techinasia.com/successful-startup-settle-thailand-register-company/

People should follow the law, but the law should not put insurmountable barriers up. Anyway, thanks again for the link!

Hilarious, it looks like the laws in Thailand are designed to descourage innovation. Singapores gain I guess.

Maybe this is why the list of technologican advances / innovations from Thailand isn't so long.