Most gun-loving: Americans vs Thais

[Docno]

In Australia ... no gun culture ... we get on just fine ... as do many other countries around the world.

The right to own guns is almost a fundamental human right. If Australia took that right from the citizens and you're happy about that, good for you. No one is complaining about how you live or what rights you want to give up.

Funny that a piece of technology invented just a few hundred years ago can be considered a fundamental human right. How does that work exactly? I mean, I can understand the right to express oneself, the right to choose one's leaders, the rights to life, liberty and security of one's person etc. being 'fundamental' rights, as they have probably all been concerns of our species from the time we first banded into social groups. But the 'right' to own a gun as a fundamental human right??? I almost don't know what to say. Aspects of US culture continue to mystify me, and I grew up only a half-hour drive away....

I don't so much see owning a gun as a fundamental human right, but more as the right to protect myself. If bad people around me have guns, I feel I should be free to have a gun as well. If people around me only had knives and swords, I would feel that it is my right to have knives and swords as well. Before anyone gets started, I don't think it scales up to indiscriminate weapons like grenades and nuclear bombs, nor do I see a need for the average person to have fully automatic weapons, but I appreciate the fact that a vetted citizen can have additional firepower in their home. I believe the People should have the power to rise up against the government in the face of tyranny, as apparently do the Thais.

Also, most of the western world just can't understand Americans' fear and paranoia concerning their government. None of us come from places that have a perfect government, but we're content to let our imperfect electoral systems take care of that. I think few people in well-established democracies outside of the US actually fear that one day their government could morph into a tyranny focused on oppressing its people ... we've developed too much for that... our democratic systems and values have strong foundations now. OK - I can't say it's impossible, but I think it highly unlikely that any of the well-established western democracies (including the US) could slip back into the tyranny that you so much fear. But this seems to be the bogeyman that gun advocates always haul out from under the bed to assert their 'right to bear arms'.

[ryanmacl]

Yes, you did generalize. It would be like me saying "The posts you make are juvenile and devoid of any insight. (Not all of them, of course). Your relationship with your keyboard is almost obsessional. And "relationship" is probably the right word for many hours of each day." See how those little brackets don't really help?

It seems you can't see the forest for the trees. If books are too difficult an allegory, how about cars? Cars kill far more people per year than guns. Cars are a substantial investment, more so but not unlike guns. People are generally protective of their "right" to own their cars.

Does that help?

Not a useful example (re my posts). If you believe that most of my post are juvenile, I don't see how that's generalising... you may very believe that (though you'd be wrong, of course )

Your 'allegory' about cars--ok, it's not really an allegory, is it?--doesn't really work either. Classic NRA logic. Cars have been designed from the start to transport people, not kill. However, through misuse or mistake, they sometimes do lead to death. Guns, on the other hand, were designed from the start to damage, maim, and kill. That is their core function, though their use has since expanded to include sport shooting (just as cars are sometimes used in sport racing).

To be honest, it's not so much guns that I have an issue with ... it's bullets. If they could exclusively/only sell non-lethal rubber bullets, then as the song goes, "fire away, fire away..." I'd have no problem with you engaging in your hobby. Why not? Is that something you could live with?

I haven't read any of your posts other than in this thread, and I doubt they are juvenile and devoid of insight. What I was getting at is that the "(Not all of them, of course)" doesn't negate the rest of the statement, especially when you are talking about an entire country.

As for the car "metaphor" if you will, I'm glad you consider it to be classic NRA logic. It is logic, NRA or otherwise. I am a lifetime member of the NRA, and while I don't agree with everything they fight for, I still agree with the fight to protect the rights Americans currently have. I can't say if guns were initially invented for hunting to put dinner on the table or to take the life of another human, nor can I say the same about arrows, spears, or knives. Regardless, armor up a car and put a gun on it, you have a tank. Every car has the potential to be a tank, just like every hunting rifle has the potential to kill a human. They are tools, they have no intrinsic desire. They are simple machines.

For the third paragraph, first off, who ever said shooting was a hobby of mine? Far too expensive to do here in Thailand, although I do miss it. Regardless, only selling rubber bullets makes no sense. It is trivially easy to make your own ammunition, and as long as someone else can do it, I should be able to have it as well. Rubber bullets are a joke. One, they can be lethal, and two, they'll likely just piss off whoever you are trying to stop. If you have to shoot at someone, you really really want them to just stop. You are on the right track though. The next big advance in personal weaponry is going to have to be big enough to make guns obsolete if you want to end this debate. The ability to shoot around corners, or better yet through walls. Preferably with the ability to hit the specific target you choose. If you can do that, making it non-lethal should be trivial, so why even bother using lethal rounds when non-lethal would suffice. This round can not be won, you can't just un-invent the gun, its too late for that. All you can do is level the playing field.

[Bignose]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

As an American, I think we all should own and know how to safely use weapons. When I moved to Thailand 10 years ago I had. These were acquired over 3 generations, now 4 with my son.

22 cal pistol

22 cal rifle

38 cal pistol

357 cal pistol

6.5 mm rifle

35 cal rifle

30-30 rifle

410 ga shotgun single shot

20 ga shotgun bolt action

16 ga shotgun bolt action

12 ga shotgun pump

12 ga shotgun semi auto

12 ga shotgun double barrel

The only one of these that I had bought was the 357 S&W pistol. The others were from my grandmother, she kept the 38 pistol in her hand bag at all time, grandfather, father and brothers. I gave them all to my son when I moved. As someone else has said, these were the tools we used to gain our freedom.

"Gain our freedom" That must be one of the most insane comments, used to justify one of the most insane actions I have ever read,

"America" an open asylum when it comes to gun control, a populace that is manipulated and coerced by the arms industry. Not only do you go along with it, you embrace and promote it. You are in for years and years of suffering and sacrifice before you see the light....hopefully the number of victims sacrificed on your alter of freedom is minimized before some real change is enacted...

[Time Traveller]

Right to bear arms....in our Constitution.

In Australia ... no gun culture ... we get on just fine ... as do many other countries around the world.

The right to own guns is almost a fundamental human right. If Australia took that right from the citizens and you're happy about that, good for you. No one is complaining about how you live or what rights you want to give up.

Funny that a piece of technology invented just a few hundred years ago can be considered a fundamental human right. How does that work exactly? I mean, I can understand the right to express oneself, the right to choose one's leaders, the rights to life, liberty and security of one's person etc. being 'fundamental' rights, as they have probably all been concerns of our species from the time we first banded into social groups. But the 'right' to own a gun as a fundamental human right??? I almost don't know what to say. Aspects of US culture continue to mystify me, and I grew up only a half-hour drive away....

The most basic human right is the right to life. With this it means you have the right to protect your own life. Including to protect your life with the use of deadly force. That is why I say right to own firearms for protection by law abiding citizens is a fundamental right. Any country that forbids you from protecting your life by any means possible is a tyrannical society.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Time Traveller

[ryanmacl]

There's logic in your argument, and it's well-stated. But don't you see the irony in the what you're saying? The reason why you need a gun to protect yourself is because your society is flooded with guns ... your society has created a hideous chicken-and-egg dilemma. The bad guys have guns so the good guys need to arm themselves which gives the bad guys more guns to steal, and so it goes. I spend most of my time in a place where guns are outright illegal for civilians. My gf, when she visits, can walk down my street at 3am without fear ... it's common. Police don't have to worry about being shot at when they show up at a domestic dispute. I don't have to worry that if I step on some lunatics foot at a bar, he'll be waiting later for me in the parking lot with a gun. And most of all, children can go to school without having to pass through metal detectors and they don't have to worry about being massacred by a schoolmate or deranged outsider. Can't you see how dysfunctional your society has become?

And where is it that you come from that doesn't have violence? Does it matter if they come at you with a gun or a knife?

Sure I can see how dysfunctional my society has become, I just don't attribute it to guns, while so many others want to use them as a scapegoat. When I had a gun, I never shot anyone. I don't know anyone who has, aside from military service. It would certainly seem to me like the majority can handle a firearm responsibly. People make pipe bombs, would you also ban pipes and nails? The focus should be the people who do these things, and how to identify and prevent them from happening. Not the tool they use. The fact that we don't is why we are so dysfunctional.

[Thaiberius]

I was born in the UK where, as I'm sure you know, the gun culture isnt much in evidence. I spent a few years in HM forces where I did the gun thing and found it did nothing for me, not even an erection. Never have understood the fascination with them.

[HerbalEd]

Americans are required to own firearms by law--its actually in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights or something.

Can our Thai "brothers-in-arms" make that claim?

BTW, only 25 posts and you are already fishing the big waters with a topic like this.

I see a bright future ahead ;-)

You're trolling, right? Or are you really that poorly informed, but think you're actually smart? There is no such requirement.

[balo]

I never touched a weapon before military service at age 18 . And never touched a gun later and I'm in my 40's now.

But my native country is Norway, not the US . To carry a weapon there you need a special license , only police and military are allowed to carry guns, And hunters with rifles also need a special license.

Norway has one of the lowest murder rates in EU , except in 2011 when that mad man killed 70 teens.

But unlike the US we never have to worry about getting shot by strangers in public places, schools, malls etc. Its rare to see a gun, and even police are walking around unarmed .

Edited May 15, 2014 by balo

[NeverSure]

Also, most of the western world just can't understand Americans' fear and paranoia concerning their government. None of us come from places that have a perfect government, but we're content to let our imperfect electoral systems take care of that. I think few people in well-established democracies outside of the US actually fear that one day their government could morph into a tyranny focused on oppressing its people ... we've developed too much for that... our democratic systems and values have strong foundations now. OK - I can't say it's impossible, but I think it highly unlikely that any of the well-established western democracies (including the US) could slip back into the tyranny that you so much fear. But this seems to be the bogeyman that gun advocates always haul out from under the bed to assert their 'right to bear arms'.

I'm watching Britain and it reminds of the frog brought to a boil in a pot of water. The Brits don't have freedom of speech and they are increasingly having that proven to them. Immigrants come in and PC speech is demanded. There is a demand for Sharia courts. The British people really don't have use much say in what's happening partly because they have been indoctrinated for a couple of generations. Britain is no longer the Britain I used to know and the Brits don't seem to see it. I don't think even the Brits will recognize Britain in just 20 more years. Maybe they don't today as I don't.

America is relatively young. It was born in blood and violence. It was born in distrust of government, and had to fight off the British King to gain freedom and independence. Many of the original immigrants were escaping oppressive governments.

The founders of the actual USA - the original 13 colonies didn't even like each others' governments, and they didn't trust them. They had a hard time coming together as a nation due to this mistrust.

In the late 1770's a constitution was put together and ratified by the colonies. But even then some were so afraid of a powerful federal government that almost immediately it got ten amendments which are called The Bill of Rights. These are rights of the people - individuals. These are rights taken away from the government specifically to give to individuals.

The first amendment in the Bill of Rights contains the freedom of speech, of the press, and of religion.

The second is the right to keep and bear arms.

It goes on to list many rights including against search and seizure without a warrant, security in the home and personal papers, and so on.

Most Americans I know who own guns do so for a purpose such as hunting or target shooting. But they are very touchy about their right to own them.

We Western countries will never agree about the right to own guns, but more than 100 million Americans with more than 300 million guns say that if push comes to shove down the road, America will be the last free country standing.

Edited May 15, 2014 by NeverSure

[lvr181]

I never touched a weapon before military service at age 18 . And never touched a gun later and I'm in my 40's now.

But my native country is Norway, not the US . To carry a weapon there you need a special license , only police and military are allowed to carry guns, And hunters with rifles also need a special license.

Norway has one of the lowest murder rates in EU , except in 2011 when that mad man killed 70 teens.

But unlike the US we never have to worry about getting shot by strangers in public places, schools, malls etc. Its rare to see a gun, and even police are walking around unarmed .

It will be interesting to see how the gun advocates "twist" these facts around to justify their stance.

[sustento]

Also, most of the western world just can't understand Americans' fear and paranoia concerning their government. None of us come from places that have a perfect government, but we're content to let our imperfect electoral systems take care of that. I think few people in well-established democracies outside of the US actually fear that one day their government could morph into a tyranny focused on oppressing its people ... we've developed too much for that... our democratic systems and values have strong foundations now. OK - I can't say it's impossible, but I think it highly unlikely that any of the well-established western democracies (including the US) could slip back into the tyranny that you so much fear. But this seems to be the bogeyman that gun advocates always haul out from under the bed to assert their 'right to bear arms'.

I'm watching Britain and it reminds of the frog brought to a boil in a pot of water.

You're watching Britain from a distance through the lens of news reports that are sensationalised to sell papers. Britain is no more what the Daily Mail would have you believe than the US is accurately reported bu the Huffington Post.

As far as the Sharia courts are concerned we've had Beth Din courts in one form or another for over 350 years. They serve the same purpose for the Jewish community as Sharia courts do for the Muslim community. Both of them deal in civil cases and neither of them override British criminal law.

[lvr181]

Also, most of the western world just can't understand Americans' fear and paranoia concerning their government. None of us come from places that have a perfect government, but we're content to let our imperfect electoral systems take care of that. I think few people in well-established democracies outside of the US actually fear that one day their government could morph into a tyranny focused on oppressing its people ... we've developed too much for that... our democratic systems and values have strong foundations now. OK - I can't say it's impossible, but I think it highly unlikely that any of the well-established western democracies (including the US) could slip back into the tyranny that you so much fear. But this seems to be the bogeyman that gun advocates always haul out from under the bed to assert their 'right to bear arms'.

I'm watching Britain and it reminds of the frog brought to a boil in a pot of water. The Brits don't have freedom of speech and they are increasingly having that proven to them. Immigrants come in and PC speech is demanded. There is a demand for Sharia courts. The British people really don't have use much say in what's happening partly because they have been indoctrinated for a couple of generations. Britain is no longer the Britain I used to know and the Brits don't seem to see it. I don't think even the Brits will recognize Britain in just 20 more years. Maybe they don't today as I don't.

America is relatively young. It was born in blood and violence. It was born in distrust of government, and had to fight off the British King to gain freedom and independence. Many of the original immigrants were escaping oppressive governments.

The founders of the actual USA - the original 13 colonies didn't even like each others' governments, and they didn't trust them. They had a hard time coming together as a nation due to this mistrust.

In the late 1770's a constitution was put together and ratified by the colonies. But even then some were so afraid of a powerful federal government that almost immediately it got ten amendments which are called The Bill of Rights. These are rights of the people - individuals. These are rights taken away from the government specifically to give to individuals.

The first amendment in the Bill of Rights contains the freedom of speech, of the press, and of religion.

The second is the right to keep and bear arms.

It goes on to list many rights including against search and seizure without a warrant, security in the home and personal papers, and so on.

Most Americans I know who own guns do so for a purpose such as hunting or target shooting. But they are very touchy about their right to own them.

We Western countries will never agree about the right to own guns, but more than 100 million Americans with more than 300 million guns say that if push comes to shove down the road, America will be the last free country standing.

I hate to have to mention this, but how many more children will Americans sacrifice in the name of chest beating about a paranoia dating back for some 244 years?

[NeverSure]

Also, most of the western world just can't understand Americans' fear and paranoia concerning their government. None of us come from places that have a perfect government, but we're content to let our imperfect electoral systems take care of that. I think few people in well-established democracies outside of the US actually fear that one day their government could morph into a tyranny focused on oppressing its people ... we've developed too much for that... our democratic systems and values have strong foundations now. OK - I can't say it's impossible, but I think it highly unlikely that any of the well-established western democracies (including the US) could slip back into the tyranny that you so much fear. But this seems to be the bogeyman that gun advocates always haul out from under the bed to assert their 'right to bear arms'.

I'm watching Britain and it reminds of the frog brought to a boil in a pot of water. The Brits don't have freedom of speech and they are increasingly having that proven to them. Immigrants come in and PC speech is demanded. There is a demand for Sharia courts. The British people really don't have use much say in what's happening partly because they have been indoctrinated for a couple of generations. Britain is no longer the Britain I used to know and the Brits don't seem to see it. I don't think even the Brits will recognize Britain in just 20 more years. Maybe they don't today as I don't.

America is relatively young. It was born in blood and violence. It was born in distrust of government, and had to fight off the British King to gain freedom and independence. Many of the original immigrants were escaping oppressive governments.

The founders of the actual USA - the original 13 colonies didn't even like each others' governments, and they didn't trust them. They had a hard time coming together as a nation due to this mistrust.

In the late 1770's a constitution was put together and ratified by the colonies. But even then some were so afraid of a powerful federal government that almost immediately it got ten amendments which are called The Bill of Rights. These are rights of the people - individuals. These are rights taken away from the government specifically to give to individuals.

The first amendment in the Bill of Rights contains the freedom of speech, of the press, and of religion.

The second is the right to keep and bear arms.

It goes on to list many rights including against search and seizure without a warrant, security in the home and personal papers, and so on.

Most Americans I know who own guns do so for a purpose such as hunting or target shooting. But they are very touchy about their right to own them.

We Western countries will never agree about the right to own guns, but more than 100 million Americans with more than 300 million guns say that if push comes to shove down the road, America will be the last free country standing.

I never touched a weapon before military service at age 18 . And never touched a gun later and I'm in my 40's now.

But my native country is Norway, not the US . To carry a weapon there you need a special license , only police and military are allowed to carry guns, And hunters with rifles also need a special license.

Norway has one of the lowest murder rates in EU , except in 2011 when that mad man killed 70 teens.

But unlike the US we never have to worry about getting shot by strangers in public places, schools, malls etc. Its rare to see a gun, and even police are walking around unarmed .

It will be interesting to see how the gun advocates "twist" these facts around to justify their stance.

See above. I just wrote how our views of the importance of gun ownership differs. I'll twist it for you. He's worried about his personal security right now, and I'm worried about the security of my country if ever the need arises.

I'm willing to take some risks today to assure a free country for my grandchildren. People from some other countries don't think that's necessary. In the future history will prove who was right.

[sustento]

See above. I just wrote how our views of the importance of gun ownership differs. I'll twist it for you. He's worried about his personal security right now, and I'm worried about the security of my country if ever the need arises.

I'm willing to take some risks today to assure a free country for my grandchildren.

Would you sacrifice YOUR grandchildren to protect your freedom?

[NeverSure]

Also, most of the western world just can't understand Americans' fear and paranoia concerning their government. None of us come from places that have a perfect government, but we're content to let our imperfect electoral systems take care of that. I think few people in well-established democracies outside of the US actually fear that one day their government could morph into a tyranny focused on oppressing its people ... we've developed too much for that... our democratic systems and values have strong foundations now. OK - I can't say it's impossible, but I think it highly unlikely that any of the well-established western democracies (including the US) could slip back into the tyranny that you so much fear. But this seems to be the bogeyman that gun advocates always haul out from under the bed to assert their 'right to bear arms'.

I'm watching Britain and it reminds of the frog brought to a boil in a pot of water. The Brits don't have freedom of speech and they are increasingly having that proven to them. Immigrants come in and PC speech is demanded. There is a demand for Sharia courts. The British people really don't have use much say in what's happening partly because they have been indoctrinated for a couple of generations. Britain is no longer the Britain I used to know and the Brits don't seem to see it. I don't think even the Brits will recognize Britain in just 20 more years. Maybe they don't today as I don't.

America is relatively young. It was born in blood and violence. It was born in distrust of government, and had to fight off the British King to gain freedom and independence. Many of the original immigrants were escaping oppressive governments.

The founders of the actual USA - the original 13 colonies didn't even like each others' governments, and they didn't trust them. They had a hard time coming together as a nation due to this mistrust.

In the late 1770's a constitution was put together and ratified by the colonies. But even then some were so afraid of a powerful federal government that almost immediately it got ten amendments which are called The Bill of Rights. These are rights of the people - individuals. These are rights taken away from the government specifically to give to individuals.

The first amendment in the Bill of Rights contains the freedom of speech, of the press, and of religion.

The second is the right to keep and bear arms.

It goes on to list many rights including against search and seizure without a warrant, security in the home and personal papers, and so on.

Most Americans I know who own guns do so for a purpose such as hunting or target shooting. But they are very touchy about their right to own them.

We Western countries will never agree about the right to own guns, but more than 100 million Americans with more than 300 million guns say that if push comes to shove down the road, America will be the last free country standing.

I hate to have to mention this, but how many more children will Americans sacrifice in the name of chest beating about a paranoia dating back for some 244 years?

I hate to mention this, but how many more freedoms will European and Australian people give up before they say "enough is enough?"

[NeverSure]

See above. I just wrote how our views of the importance of gun ownership differs. I'll twist it for you. He's worried about his personal security right now, and I'm worried about the security of my country if ever the need arises.

I'm willing to take some risks today to assure a free country for my grandchildren.

Would you sacrifice YOUR grandchildren to protect your freedom?

Huh? ?? I would sacrifice myself for my grandchildren's freedom.

What are you on?

America has the world's 3rd largest population. The teeny, teeny percentage of them killed by gun murder each year is far less than the number killed in car accidents, or from smoking or drinking.

Guns are sensationalized beyond reason.

Edited May 15, 2014 by NeverSure

[sustento]

See above. I just wrote how our views of the importance of gun ownership differs. I'll twist it for you. He's worried about his personal security right now, and I'm worried about the security of my country if ever the need arises.

I'm willing to take some risks today to assure a free country for my grandchildren.

Would you sacrifice YOUR grandchildren to protect your freedom?

Huh? ?? I would sacrifice myself for my grandchildren's freedom.

What are you on?

America has the world's 3rd largest population. The teeny, teeny percentage of them killed by gun murder each year is far less than the number killed in car accidents, or from smoking or drinking.

I'm not on anything. You say that the teeny teeny percentage of people killed by gun murder is an acceptable loss in order to maintain the freedom and security given to you by your ability to own guns. I'm just asking if you'd still find that sacrifice acceptable if your grandchildren were part of that teeny teeny percentage?

[Thaiberius]

I can only talk about the UK but having read what Mr Snowden has to say I think the UK is fairly representative of a number of western nations. The concept of free speech is something that is hèld dear by westerners and taken as a human right. However if we stop for a minute and think about it the advent of the internet has chipped away at free speech such that I feel we no longer have this basic human right. To test this concept go on Facebook or Twitter and make a controversial comment about Islam or UKIP and see how long it is before the bill come knocking on your door. Yes, free speech is dead and buried.

[NeverSure]

See above. I just wrote how our views of the importance of gun ownership differs. I'll twist it for you. He's worried about his personal security right now, and I'm worried about the security of my country if ever the need arises.

I'm willing to take some risks today to assure a free country for my grandchildren.

Would you sacrifice YOUR grandchildren to protect your freedom?

Huh? ?? I would sacrifice myself for my grandchildren's freedom.

What are you on?

America has the world's 3rd largest population. The teeny, teeny percentage of them killed by gun murder each year is far less than the number killed in car accidents, or from smoking or drinking.

I'm not on anything. You say that the teeny teeny percentage of people killed by gun murder is an acceptable loss in order to maintain the freedom and security given to you by your ability to own guns. I'm just asking if you'd still find that sacrifice acceptable if your grandchildren were part of that teeny teeny percentage?

I'd be sick about it, same as if they were killed in a car accident. But yes I'm willing to take that risk as were my ancestors.

Europe is slowly being taken over by globalists. Those are one-world government people and that's their goal. No borders, no sovereign nations, no right to say who comes and goes and worse, anyone who wanders in has financial "entitlements."

Soon Europeans won't know who their government is, or what happened to their sovereign country because it sneaked up on them and they don't see it.

America will be the last free country standing, and the pugnacious, belligerent American people will see to it.

Some things are worth dying for. What are you afraid of?

[NeverSure]

I can only talk about the UK but having read what Mr Snowden has to say I think the UK is fairly representative of a number of western nations. The concept of free speech is something that is hèld dear by westerners and taken as a human right. However if we stop for a minute and think about it the advent of the internet has chipped away at free speech such that I feel we no longer have this basic human right. To test this concept go on Facebook or Twitter and make a controversial comment about Islam or UKIP and see how long it is before the bill come knocking on your door. Yes, free speech is dead and buried.

No, No. You can't compare your lack of free speech on a public website including this one, to your rights to speak out against your government in public, or to just generally speak your mind in public.

Brits in particular are having to watch what they say in public for fear of getting in trouble. So who owns the country? The people or the government? It should be the people and the government should answer to them; not the other way around.

It's slipping away, frogs in a pot.

[sustento]

I'd be sick about it, same as if they were killed in a car accident. But yes I'm willing to take that risk as were my ancestors.

Europe is slowly being taken over by globalists. Those are one-world government people and that's their goal. No borders, no sovereign nations, no right to say who comes and goes and worse, anyone who wanders in has financial "entitlements."

Soon Europeans won't know who their government is, or what happened to their sovereign country because it sneaked up on them and they don't see it.

America will be the last free country standing, and the pugnacious, belligerent American people will see to it.

Some things are worth dying for. What are you afraid of?

I'm not afraid of change. We obviously see Europe in a very different light. I have the advantage of living there. I don't think there's any point in carrying on as we'd just be flogging another dead horse in the same way that we would with guns.

[Thaiberius]

I can only talk about the UK but having read what Mr Snowden has to say I think the UK is fairly representative of a number of western nations. The concept of free speech is something that is hèld dear by westerners and taken as a human right. However if we stop for a minute and think about it the advent of the internet has chipped away at free speech such that I feel we no longer have this basic human right. To test this concept go on Facebook or Twitter and make a controversial comment about Islam or UKIP and see how long it is before the bill come knocking on your door. Yes, free speech is dead and buried.

No, No. You can't compare your lack of free speech on a public website including this one, to your rights to speak out against your government in public, or to just generally speak your mind in public.

Brits in particular are having to watch what they say in public for fear of getting in trouble. So who owns the country? The people or the government? It should be the people and the government should answer to them; not the other way around.

It's slipping away, frogs in a pot.

You are right, speaking ones mind in public is fraught with risk depending upon what you are saying. Having said that, if you are a member of a minority it seems sometimes you can say as you like with impunity. England no longer belongs to the English, of that I am certain.

[ryanmacl]

I never touched a weapon before military service at age 18 . And never touched a gun later and I'm in my 40's now.

But my native country is Norway, not the US . To carry a weapon there you need a special license , only police and military are allowed to carry guns, And hunters with rifles also need a special license.

Norway has one of the lowest murder rates in EU , except in 2011 when that mad man killed 70 teens.

But unlike the US we never have to worry about getting shot by strangers in public places, schools, malls etc. Its rare to see a gun, and even police are walking around unarmed .

It will be interesting to see how the gun advocates "twist" these facts around to justify their stance.

You are just as worried about getting shot by strangers in public places as I am, which is not at all, although every country has alleys you wouldn't walk down alone at night, and you would be lying if you tried to deny it.

The "fact" that Norway has less violence means nothing. Correlation does not equal causation. By all accounts, Norway is just a better place to live in general, and it has nothing to do with guns. Funny though, how easily you can gloss over your occasional madman while pointing the finger at ours. Incidentally, how many people would he have been able to kill if there was someone else with a gun to stop him?

You are basically saying "We don't need fire extinguishers, we have firefighters with trucks and water. Children could get hurt with all those pressurized tanks laying around!"

Also, most of the western world just can't understand Americans' fear and paranoia concerning their government. None of us come from places that have a perfect government, but we're content to let our imperfect electoral systems take care of that. I think few people in well-established democracies outside of the US actually fear that one day their government could morph into a tyranny focused on oppressing its people ... we've developed too much for that... our democratic systems and values have strong foundations now. OK - I can't say it's impossible, but I think it highly unlikely that any of the well-established western democracies (including the US) could slip back into the tyranny that you so much fear. But this seems to be the bogeyman that gun advocates always haul out from under the bed to assert their 'right to bear arms'.

I'm watching Britain and it reminds of the frog brought to a boil in a pot of water. The Brits don't have freedom of speech and they are increasingly having that proven to them. Immigrants come in and PC speech is demanded. There is a demand for Sharia courts. The British people really don't have use much say in what's happening partly because they have been indoctrinated for a couple of generations. Britain is no longer the Britain I used to know and the Brits don't seem to see it. I don't think even the Brits will recognize Britain in just 20 more years. Maybe they don't today as I don't.

America is relatively young. It was born in blood and violence. It was born in distrust of government, and had to fight off the British King to gain freedom and independence. Many of the original immigrants were escaping oppressive governments.

The founders of the actual USA - the original 13 colonies didn't even like each others' governments, and they didn't trust them. They had a hard time coming together as a nation due to this mistrust.

In the late 1770's a constitution was put together and ratified by the colonies. But even then some were so afraid of a powerful federal government that almost immediately it got ten amendments which are called The Bill of Rights. These are rights of the people - individuals. These are rights taken away from the government specifically to give to individuals.

The first amendment in the Bill of Rights contains the freedom of speech, of the press, and of religion.

The second is the right to keep and bear arms.

It goes on to list many rights including against search and seizure without a warrant, security in the home and personal papers, and so on.

Most Americans I know who own guns do so for a purpose such as hunting or target shooting. But they are very touchy about their right to own them.

We Western countries will never agree about the right to own guns, but more than 100 million Americans with more than 300 million guns say that if push comes to shove down the road, America will be the last free country standing.

I hate to have to mention this, but how many more children will Americans sacrifice in the name of chest beating about a paranoia dating back for some 244 years?

Really, the "think of the children" argument? Unbelievable. Why even post? There isn't a right out there that I couldn't argue taking away to save some hypothetical children. Free speech? What if the children heard you say something bad and it scarred them for life? Privacy? How do I know you aren't abusing children in your home? Unwarranted search and seizure? You might have kiddy porn on your computer, how would I know you aren't abusing the children unless I take it from you and check?

No government is perfect, especially the US Government, and it has never been more evident as now with all these leaks of classified information. I'd say it makes 244 year old paranoia look pretty justified. The men who drafted the Bill of Rights weren't buffoons writing down any nonsense that came to mind. They anticipated the need for these rights, based upon what they had seen through their own eyes as well as learned from history. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, as they say. I personally would never sit idly by while someone took away one of my rights. They were won hard enough the first time, and once you give them up, don't expect to get them back when you finally realize what they were for.

[ryanmacl]

See above. I just wrote how our views of the importance of gun ownership differs. I'll twist it for you. He's worried about his personal security right now, and I'm worried about the security of my country if ever the need arises.

I'm willing to take some risks today to assure a free country for my grandchildren.

Would you sacrifice YOUR grandchildren to protect your freedom?

Huh? ?? I would sacrifice myself for my grandchildren's freedom.

What are you on?

America has the world's 3rd largest population. The teeny, teeny percentage of them killed by gun murder each year is far less than the number killed in car accidents, or from smoking or drinking.

I'm not on anything. You say that the teeny teeny percentage of people killed by gun murder is an acceptable loss in order to maintain the freedom and security given to you by your ability to own guns. I'm just asking if you'd still find that sacrifice acceptable if your grandchildren were part of that teeny teeny percentage?

I don't have grandchildren, I have a beautiful daughter. If she were killed, the last thing I would blame is the gun. Would the knife be at fault if someone stabbed you?

[Otis]

For Americans, guns are akin to sex-toys. They seem to really get off on them. (Not all of them, of course). The relationship is almost obsessional. And "relationship" is probably the right word in some case. Thais seem to be more practically minded when it comes to guns. A gun is more like a hammer or a slingshot... except deadlier.

I can easily imagine an American proclaiming "happiness is a warm gun"; not a Thai...

Must be the fault of those dang non-performing American women. They just don't seem to be making their men happy. And then, the men have to find other outlets (guns). Some find Thailand and they abandon their sex-toys.

Or, maybe Sigmund Freud was right when he said, "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

Explanation; first paragraph is sarcasm. Second paragraph to alert the "Libs" of their sexual and emotional inadequacies.

[kowpot]

I find it amazing how many folks from countries other than the U.S. worry what Americans do. I mean what difference is it to you? Do you think that the people in the USA care what you do in your home country? I hate to burst your bubble but they don't. What gives you as a non American the right to decide whether or not Americans should have the right to own firearms. Just because you all didn't have the "stones" to stand up to your own governments and let them take your guns away from you, does not justify you venting your frustrations at the U.S. population for keeping their right to own guns. The only thing you know is what the BBC or any of the Liberal news stations tell you. Yes, every once in a while some crazy goes on a shooting spree. But, with the size of the United States that is small potatoes, when you look at the larger picture. I don't condone it. I just don't fret about it. I don't leave my house in the morning thinking that I am going to get shot. I have just as good of a chance walking the streets of London or Berlin to get mugged or stabbed. Even Canada with all their gun laws still have a "crazy" go on a shooting spree. I guess my point is, "those in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones". If what they do in the United States scares you. Don't go there. Their economy is not based on tourism. DON'T WORRY, THEY WON'T BE TALKING ABOUT YOU EITHER. THEY DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR COUNTRY!

Edited May 15, 2014 by kowpot

[Patron]

First off...I don't love guns.I have had guns since I was 12 years old. My grandfather gave me a 30-30 Winchester and a 12 Ga Savage Shotgun when I was 12. I was taught to respect guns and how to handle them. I.E. Don't ever handle a gun with out first checking too see if it's loaded, even at a gun shop.DO NOT EVER Handled firearms when you have been drinking or are around people that have been drinking.Do not tell strangers you have guns. Most of my firearms are for hunting, when I was young my father, my grandfather and I hunted ducks,geese,deer and elk all over north central America and parts of Canada. And yes we only shot what we could eat. 40 years later i still proudly remember those fine Men. I still have those guns from the 1930's in perfect condition. Funny, like another poster, I too made a gun safe for my father in high school wood shop. I have a concealed carry license in my state to carry a loaded 357 Magnum. I only carry it when I'm in a certain city in my state. 70% of the murders in this city are done by 12% of a certain population. I would rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun and not have it!!!

[mmh8]

I've seen both sides and I know which I prefer. Thai kids have all been in army and know there is nothing glorious about it. They love the weapons but all of it is matter of fact. yeah try this snub nose, yeah big kick, oh try my shotgun now. Ha ha. all very layed back.

see an american ( colonist cos I haven't met any of the natives they is all dead) wow dude look at my shiny one, death and honour, and its all talk of erections and killing people.

take another example so I can give neutral. take your average Israeli kid. you can ask them about it and they will say, oh shit I left it on a bus and go running off to catch the bus

[featography]

Americans are required to own firearms by law--its actually in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights or something.

Can our Thai "brothers-in-arms" make that claim?

BTW, only 25 posts and you are already fishing the big waters with a topic like this.

I see a bright future ahead ;-)

The ''something'' is called the Amendments to the Constitution, and much as 20 million Americans wish it were true, it IS NOT required to own firearms. Switzerland it is required that every household have firearms, and the govt. issues the ammo for each weapon.

[Patron]

I've seen both sides and I know which I prefer. Thai kids have all been in army and know there is nothing glorious about it. They love the weapons but all of it is matter of fact. yeah try this snub nose, yeah big kick, oh try my shotgun now. Ha ha. all very layed back.

see an american ( colonist cos I haven't met any of the natives they is all dead) wow dude look at my shiny one, death and honour, and its all talk of erections and killing people.

take another example so I can give neutral. take your average Israeli kid. you can ask them about it and they will say, oh shit I left it on a bus and go running off to catch the bus

What the ---- are you talking about?