One Year Non Immigrant Extension Horror

[greenwanderer108]

My one year non-o extension is coming to an end in 3 months. In preparation for the new extension, I sent my son's mother to request the garuntee form that I used last time to get my extension.

One year ago, as my Non Ed visa was closing to expire, I prepared and gathered as much evidence and letters as I had to present my case to Thai immigration as to extend my previous one year visa changing it from Ed (Uni studies) to O under the basis of having Thai ethnicity. What seemed like an impossible task that day convincing the officials that I wasn't just a tourist looking for extended holiday---that I was in fact the offspring of a deceased Thai citizen, and even though I'm not rich and never had Thai nationality, that being kin of Thai with clear and stamped evidence proving so should be enough reason to live in the country of my mother with little hassle.

As usual in this country, talking to underpaid nobodies at the bottom was to no avail, and eventually, after pleading to the man with the stamp, they finally gave in to me giving me a garuntee form that I had to get my Thai aunt to sign and garuntee me as her nephew along with a copy of her id card and house regestration. Finally, I got my one year extension with it written in my passport 'Aunt is Thai' assuring me that all future extensions will be of less hassle, etc. etc.

Today, I stayed home watching my son while the mother went to immagration to do my 90 day check in as well as request the garuntee form that I used last time. (slightly off topic--While waiting for my 90 day check in, she noted a Chinese immigrant who spoke perfect Thai get charged 2000 baht for losing his 90 day white form ! I lost that before but they gave me a new one without hassle but that was when we used to do it upstairs---ever since they moved everything downstairs, I've only seen more strict rules and no smiling faces.)

Anyway, 90 day check in out of the way, she was supposed to get the garuntee form, in and out and back home to the family...simple task?? All the days of immigration hassle were long gone, so I thought. She gives me a call saying she can't get the form. I hear information desk man in the background ranting about how their is no basis for one year extension based on Thai ethnicity. Not this crap again, I'm thinking. So I tell her to not waste her time with these info desk know-it-alls who know nothing and have no power to do anything and simply request to speak to the person who stamped my extension the previous year.

By the time she gets into the extension room, some official tells her that the official who stamped my passport was at a seminar and anyway there is no basis for my extension unless I was still under 20. Quite confusing since I was already 22 last year when they stamped me on that basis. So than this official goes on to tell her that the only other options are if

A) I'm studying

I'm working with work permit

C) I am married to a Thai or have Thai child

Well great, if I can't use the right of staying as a non-immigrant for being a non-national son of a Thai and having Thai relatives to garuntee me than I should be able to use the right that I am a father to a Thai son...right? Wrong ! The only way I can use this right is if I have a spare 400,000 baht to put into my bank account for a statement. 400 grand or not, I'm his father and I've got to take care of him. I'm not rich and I don't have 400k, let alone 40 k in my bank account, but one things for sure, my son isn't starving, will never starve, is updated on all his shots, vaccinations, and medical checkups and will always be as long as I have blood pumping in my veins. That's my obligation and responsibility to him untill atleast the age of majority, and since I don't have 400k statement, what do these boys at immigration expect me to do to support my Thai son in Thailand? With their policies, all I can do is illegally work making visa runs 4 to 12 times a year if he is to have his father with him in the land of his birth.

The heavens forbid I ever wanted to consider Permananent Residence, for that also requires a big wad of money. And since it looks like I won't be able to exten my visa this time around, I'm disqualified for applying for it anyway...not that I had the 200,000 baht for it anyhow.

So in conclusion of my venting, even though I am not a tourist on extended holiday---that my mother and her parents were full Thai citizens who were born and labored in/for this country, and even though I have conceived a Thai male citizen in Thailand and made an oath to raise and support him until the age of majority at the least...I am still nothing but a second class 'farang' who has no right to have prolonged secure stays and rights in this country because :

I'm not wealthy and formally educated with minimal post secondary degree

If I want my son to spend time with his Thai kin and family in the land of his birth and want to be a part of that physically as well as financially, my only options thanks to immigration policies are to scrape around working illegally, doing visa runs.

Otherwise, once he gets his American passport hopefully at the end of this month, scrape just enough to bring him back to a country where his parents, despite one being foreign nationality, would never be restricted in raising him and being his parent with him based on status factors such as bank accounts or university degrees.

I'm just so shattered by this and the ignorance and racism that I have recieved from Thai officials and policies, and really have lost any sense of pride for the Thai blood I have in me and starting to understand why my mother never did make a major effort to come back to Thailand after migrating from here 34 years ago.

I used to enjoy singing along to the Thai national anthem and now I just cringe when I hear it and what it stands for and all this other propganda about Thais loving Thais and Thai unity, and Thai ethnicity, blood, and pride for life and loving and protecting Thai nationality-ethnicity....why I even bothered learning to read, write, and speak Thai fluently, perhaps I was better off as an ignorant American who was fooled and charmed by the surface smile, better off just visiting on a holiday basis recieving the respect and bright side of the people--- when I actually had money to pour into their country.

If you managed to stay with me this long, thanks for hearing my rants and complaints about a biased and unfair system. Like I said, the worst part of it is for my son. Atleast, I didn't make the same mistakes my parents did and not secure his dual national rights, for he can make up his own mind in his future without biased and racist immigration policies holding him back whether he decides where he wants to be.

Maybe things will clear up if I actually talk to the officer who stamped me through last year, but I've learned to prepare for the worst, so I've got to figure something out quick before mid-September. Should I waste time trying to get a one year multiple entry in KL or is it hopeless too. I'm sure I can get it in the consulate back home without hassle or bank statements, especially if they see that my son, and direct relatives are all Thai? Any support or advice, please.

Even if I decided to ditch this country and go back home, I would still need time to make such a transition. If he is to be with his mom there, that would require time and funds to get the K-1 visa I imagine...so what can I do aside from leaving my son in Thailand while I try to create a better life elsewhere. I don't want to be on the other side of the world while my son grows up. I want to be there with him. Am I screwed and sentanced to visa run hel_l and illegal working if I want to father my son on my own account in Thailand???

Thanks in advance

[samran]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the non-O visa was for former Thai nationals, rather than children of (unless they are under 18 and dependents).

I've always said that the Thai visa system is the polar opposite to the west. Here, easy to get in and stay long term....but harder to gain residency and citizenship. In the west, hard to get in, but once in, easy to stay. In reality, they are as hard/easy as each other.

As for the spousal hurdle, the 400K. I have mixed thoughts. The pro is that is a realtively effective selection tool to keep people from trying to stay here based on sham marriages. Puts the ball in the court of the applicant, rather than in the hands of a narky embassy official who holds the your life in their hands.

The 400K rule basically formalises in the form of a monetary amount what other nations do anyway...that a sposual visa will only be granted of the applicants can show that they will be able to support themselves for the first X years of settlement without access to public funds.

The con is that it is an arbitrary line in the sand, and that those who do well in supporting their families for less are penalised.

There are no clear answers when it comes to immigratoin....anywhere.

In anycase, if I was you, I'd get you and your son a thai passport. You are both eligible anyway.

[greenwanderer108]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the non-O visa was for former Thai nationals, rather than children of (unless they are under 18 and dependents).

I've always said that the Thai visa system is the polar opposite to the west. Here, easy to get in and stay long term....but harder to gain residency and citizenship. In the west, hard to get in, but once in, easy to stay. In reality, they are as hard/easy as each other.

As for the spousal hurdle, the 400K. I have mixed thoughts. The pro is that is a realtively effective selection tool to keep people from trying to stay here based on sham marriages. Puts the ball in the court of the applicant, rather than in the hands of a narky embassy official who holds the your life in their hands.

The 400K rule basically formalises in the form of a monetary amount what other nations do anyway...that a sposual visa will only be granted of the applicants can show that they will be able to support themselves for the first X years of settlement without access to public funds.

The con is that it is an arbitrary line in the sand, and that those who do well in supporting their families for less are penalised.

There are no clear answers when it comes to immigratoin....anywhere.

In anycase, if I was you, I'd get you and your son a thai passport. You are both eligible anyway.

The 400k policy might work good for marriage situations as you pointed out but in my case, it's on the basis of him being a dependent (my son). What does such a hefty sum have to do with proving I'm his legit gaurdian? One can argue that 400,000 baht will prove that I am capable of taking care of him but this is not a matter of choice if I want to be his gaurdian-parental support and can meet some financial standard to suffice that. I am his father bottom line and responsible no matter what. Just because I don't have 400,000 baht in my bank, and thus not meet the requirements for a long term renewable visa, does that not make me his gaurdian??? It certainly makes it harder for me to be his gaurdian being illegal to work or ineligible for most locals services (i.e. housing, transportation, telephone, banking, etc.) and worrying about border runs all the time.

How many Thai parents have 400,000 baht stored away that didn't come from some bank loan or rich parents? How many of them would be in trouble if the Thai government told them they had to show such a statement to be considered legit as a gaurdian ?

As far as the son getting the passport, that will not be a problem as he is a Thai citizen already, but as for me, since my mother is deceased overseas and migrated 34 years ago, it is nearly impossible and far out of my financial capabilities. The last trip to 'proving nationality' office, told that I would need to get every single original marriage certificate, divorce certificate, name change documents and death certificate translated and stamped by American embassy---of which I don't even have access to all such documents that tied me to my mother and my mother being Thai without making a trip to USA and formally requesting them all. Aparently, just my American birth certificate which clearly states my mother was a Thai national is not enough proof to prove nationality for me. And on top of all this official evidence, biological evidence would be required with some sophisticated DNA testing between me and one of my Thai kin, which I heard can get pretty costy when comparing couzins...??? And after all that, granted they were satisfied, I'd be required for the Thai military draw-draft. The way the official was talking to me in explaining all this, was asking how much money my Thai relatives were in and willing to invest in the process, as if expecting an under the table offer to ease things through. And when I explain that it is a process that I am doing on my own initiative and that my Thai relatives were just mid-class working people who weren't necesarrily available for all day interviews and tests in bkk to prove my case, the guy pretty much tells me that's it's nearly impossible...Maybe I can try one last time, but not likely to change since I'm still broke.

As far as I know, the only way to get a Thai passport is if I proved Thai nationality as explained above or I showed my documents-case to the embassy in my home country's of which I already inquired several years ago and got the response from them that because I was of the age of majority I would be required to give up my American citizenship if I aquired Thai passport through them. So the chances of me getting a Thai passport are even more difficult than getting permanent residency here...

[Phil Conners]

Yes, and what makes you different than me, a farang with a thai kid?

I also have to provide 400,000 to get a one-year extension. I'd much rather leave that money in stocks or at least high-interest accounts than in a rather insecure, virtually-no-interest giving thai bank account.

Yes it's unfair and it's just how it is here.

[greenwanderer108]

The main question raised here is :

What are foreign parents of Thais in Thailand that don't/can't meet the 400,000 baht quota supposed/expected to do ?

Option One : Stay in Thailand on Tourist Visas, work illegaly, and do visa runs every month

Option Two : Go to KL or home country consulate and get a one year multiple entry visa for 5000 baht, work illegally, and do visa runs every three months

And then, in the chance that the parent got busted for working illegally, then what? Get jailed, heavily fined, and deported ? ? This is inhumane really...

Looks like the only safe option is to leave Thailand with-without my kid. And without lots of funds, how can the kids mother be assured a visa to my country so easily ? This is a bummer. What am I supposed to do for my family ? Anyhow, I wrote a long letter in Thai. I sent it to immigration and plan to forward it to some newspapers and other media. It's really a bummer system that needs to be addressed and changed.

//Removed Thai text per forum rules - posts are in English only-lopburi3//

[Phil Conners]

Yes it's a bummer. The only logical answer is leave. With or without your kid.

Yes it's unfair, but it doesn't help agreeing here, I think any parent would agree with you.

I think the only thing you can do, if anything, is to contact your politician in your home country and try to apply pressure that way. Probably futile, they probably have "more important stuff" to think about that this, but that's the usual thing with our politicians - unless they have a vested personal interest or they can earn money and/or votes with it they probably don't care.

[thaihome]

I feel for you and the situation you find yourself in. I would like to point out that Thai Immigration did not put you in this situation, you did. Throughout your long eloquent rant I see no sign of you accepting any personal responsibility for anything. It is everyone else fault that you find yourself living in a foreign country without the funds or prospects. Is it Thai Immigrations fault you don't have the experience or education to get a decent job that would allow you stay here according the rules that everyone has to abide by? Is it Thai Immigration fault that you have neither the initiative nor the wither all to prove your eligibility for Thai citizenship?

Get a grip, kid and start taking responsibility for your own life and quit blaming other people for your own self induced problems. Life is tough and you make your own road.

TH

[TokyoT]

As far as I know the Non-O visa based upon your Thai child/wife being a dependant does not allow one to work in Thailand. So even with this visa one would need to either work illegally or find work that would allow them to get a work permit, no?

So I think this is one of the reasons for the 400,000 baht requirement. Otherwise one could get the visa thru their place of employment, along with their work-permit.

[Khutan]

As far as I know the Non-O visa based upon your Thai child/wife being a dependant does not allow one to work in Thailand. <snip>

That is not correct.

You certainly can get a work permit with a Non-O visa.

I have a Work permit with my Non-O visa.

You cannot get a Workpermit with a retirement visa and some other forms of a Non-O like Non OA, however a standard Non-O that you get because you are married to a Thai or have a Thai child is sufficient.

[lopburi3]

So even with this visa one would need to either work illegally or find work that would allow them to get a work permit, no?

I believe, from the above, the poster is saying you can not work with just an O visa - you still must obtain a work permit. And that is true.

[TokyoT]

That is not correct.

You certainly can get a work permit with a Non-O visa.

I have a Work permit with my Non-O visa.

You cannot get a Workpermit with a retirement visa and some other forms of a Non-O like Non OA, however a standard Non-O that you get because you are married to a Thai or have a Thai child is sufficient.

Maybe I was not clear enough in my post but, I know you can get a work-permit with a Non-O – the point being you still need a work permit to work.

GW made several comments about other options and included working here illegally – Non-O or any other type of visa one still needs the work permit.

[Noel]

I feel for you and the situation you find yourself in. I would like to point out that Thai Immigration did not put you in this situation, you did. Throughout your long eloquent rant I see no sign of you accepting any personal responsibility for anything. It is everyone else fault that you find yourself living in a foreign country without the funds or prospects. Is it Thai Immigrations fault you don't have the experience or education to get a decent job that would allow you stay here according the rules that everyone has to abide by? Is it Thai Immigration fault that you have neither the initiative nor the wither all to prove your eligibility for Thai citizenship?

Get a grip, kid and start taking responsibility for your own life and quit blaming other people for your own self induced problems. Life is tough and you make your own road.

TH

Excellent post, TH; the above says it all...

This perpetual complainer needs to come to terms with the fact that he is not a special case and never will be.

He seems to believe he can just amble along through life doing the bare minimum, yet be treated in the same way as those who have made the effort to ensure they can comply with the rules.

His destiny lies in his own hands and whining about how 'unfair' life is serves no purpose whatsoever.

Your final words sum it up nicely:

"Get a grip, kid and start taking responsibility for your own life and quit blaming other people for your own self induced problems. Life is tough and you make your own road."

[mouse]

got the response from them that because I was of the age of majority I would be required to give up my American citizenship if I aquired Thai passport through them.

Incorrect! You have the right to dual nationality both under Thailands Laws and U.S. Law! Thai law stipulates that as a decendant of a Thai citizen you have the right to claim Thai nationality later in your life as a birthright. This is not optional but your right.

Also there are two ways for you to request the original documents that you mother had to file in order for her to immigrate to the U.S. i.e. her Birth Certificate, Marriage Certificate and all other documents that she and your Father likely submitted.

What part of Thailand are you now in? PM me with a phone number and I will provide you with a phone number and a name of someone that may be able to help you. No! Not a lawyer! And very likely free!! except for the notarization of the required documents which is a mere $35.

[mouse]

I feel for you and the situation you find yourself in. I would like to point out that Thai Immigration did not put you in this situation, you did. Throughout your long eloquent rant I see no sign of you accepting any personal responsibility for anything. It is everyone else fault that you find yourself living in a foreign country without the funds or prospects. Is it Thai Immigrations fault you don't have the experience or education to get a decent job that would allow you stay here according the rules that everyone has to abide by? Is it Thai Immigration fault that you have neither the initiative nor the wither all to prove your eligibility for Thai citizenship?

Get a grip, kid and start taking responsibility for your own life and quit blaming other people for your own self induced problems. Life is tough and you make your own road.

TH

I think that you are mistaken for it seems that it was his PARENTS that deceided where he would be born and I can totally understand his deep down desire to return to the land of his ROOTS. I do not think this was a rant, but, rather a venting of his frustrations and anger that many of us have felt within the Asian way of life. Young people do this that many times causing older people like you and me to become insensitive toward their problems. Let's help people on the forum and give positive advise instead of dismissing them as CRY BABIES!

[StateSix]

That is not correct.

You certainly can get a work permit with a Non-O visa.

I have a Work permit with my Non-O visa.

You cannot get a Workpermit with a retirement visa and some other forms of a Non-O like Non OA, however a standard Non-O that you get because you are married to a Thai or have a Thai child is sufficient.

Maybe I was not clear enough in my post but, I know you can get a work-permit with a Non-O – the point being you still need a work permit to work.

GW made several comments about other options and included working here illegally – Non-O or any other type of visa one still needs the work permit.

Doesnt GW already work here, meaning he should already have a work permit? Why can you not get a non-imm B visa enabling you to stay, then you have time to look at what you need to get a Thai passport/citizenship?

[Richard Hall]

Options:

1. Prove that you have a birth right for Thai citizienship and follow the procedure for naturalisation which gives you all the rights and duties like any other Thai.

2. Maintain being a foreigner in Thailand with all the rights and duties like any other foreigners. In this case possible ancient Thai roots are absolutely of no importance and do not provide any privileges.

- Non Immigrant-O on basis being a SPONSOR of a spouse and/or biologicial child holding Thai citizenship and in latter case holding sole gurardian rights for it.

-- To be entitled for an one year staying permit evidence for the appropriate financial means must be provided either by having 400,00 Baht in a bank account or a LEGITIMATE monthly income of at least 40,000 Baht.

-- If not being able to meet the requirements for an one year staying permit appropriate visa runs will be required.

Surely needless to say that working illegally like any other activties against the law is absolutely NOT an option which should be easy to understand for any educated person.

3. If 2. can not and/or is not wanted to be realised return to the country you are holding a passport for and possibly acquire the necessary means to qualify.

Summary: What have you got? Unability to prove that you are of Thai origin. Holding a foreign passport and being father of a child with Thai nationality.

What makes YOU different from any other foreigner wishing a long time staying-permit in Thailand? Aren't you just looking for the raisins in the cake and blame now the baker because you can't find any?

Are Thailand's immigration laws actually that inhuman because they do not automatically allow residence as soon as someone has fathered a child and/or married a woman? Getting either one of those feats accomplished is indeed kind of simple but actually being able to take on responsibility and caring for your dependants is surely a different pair of shoes.

What is Thai immigration actually expected to do? Forming a new non-immigrant visa category? The "C" class with having this letter stand for "copulate" assuming this to be a rock solid basis for anyone wishing to reside in Thailand.

You actually have got plenty of options. Just pick the one that is most appropriate in respect of your own personal background.

Good luck and all the best,

Richard

Edited June 15, 2006 by Richard Hall

[samran]

I don't understand why working illegally seems to be your only option. Don't you work for one of the big English Language papers here...surely a work permit isn't out of the question.

Three years of that, and you'd get your residency, which someone like you would get in a second.

[Noel]

I don't understand why working illegally seems to be your only option. Don't you work for one of the big English Language papers here...surely a work permit isn't out of the question.

My thoughts too.

If they will not facilitate a work permit, he needs to look for an employer that will.

No doubt there will be a string of excuses as to why that is out of the question...

[camerata]

Maybe things will clear up if I actually talk to the officer who stamped me through last year, but I've learned to prepare for the worst, so I've got to figure something out quick before mid-September.

In the short term, I think this is your only option. If you are asking for any kind of special consideration, go yourself. Immigration often deals with messengers and agents pretty harshly. The ones who get the best treatment are foreigners (especially if they speak Thai) and those professional agents who establish a personal relationship with the officers, sweet-talk them, and buy them khanom or bunches of flowers. The mother of your son, as you put it, is probably getting the same off-hand treatment that many other Thais get. Incidentally, wouldn't it help things if you married her as a demonstration of your commitment to the family?

Go to Immigration yourself, leave the farang attitude behind, and try to get people to feel sorry for you on a personal level. It worked before, so you know it can be done.

In the long term you need to get a job with a work permit. Even though the Ministry of Labour prefers a degree, it isn't essential for a work permit. Relevant experience can help a lot, especially if the job description is something to do with English language (writing, editing, etc.).

I think you're projecting your own wishes onto Immigration too much. It isn't run on moral or ethical principles, it's run according to what the government feels is best for Thailand - a country that AFAIK has never had an official immigration policy. As one officer said in an interview, "The Immigration Dept is an enforcement agency." Most of the rules that discriminate against foreign males who marry Thai women were promulgated way back when Chinese and Vietnamese men (potentially a "5th column" of communists inside the kingdom) were marrying Thais and getting control of Thai land. They weren't aimed specifically at farang.

Without any kind of immigration policy in place where "humanitarian concerns" would be important, you need to accept the reality and start playing the game. Frankly, I'm amazed that having an aunt of the host country's nationality gets you anything at all - it wouldn't in most countries. I went through the work permit difficulties 20 years ago and it isn't fun. But you need to hang in there and keep trying. Meanwhile, I'd suggest over the next year you do your utmost to try and get evidence of your Thai parent's citizenship.

[greenwanderer108]

For all the comments like 'Get over it. Accept the system. This is Thailand. etc. etc.' perhaps such posters should consider these questions:

What are you doing in Thailand? Are you a tourist or resident ?

Do you raise children or plan to raise children in Thailand ?

Is Thailand the way it was 50 years ago ? Will it be the same way in 50 years ?

Is change inevitable and/or necesarry for society ?

Is accepting and sucking in every thing an effective catalyst for a better society ?

Sure, complaining and or ranting on a webboard might not directly change that which is unfair in a the system, but venting about injustice(s) is a healthy way to put things in perspective and raise awareness and issues that could benefit or affect others in future situations. And it is also another method of reinforcing individual ethics and morals---helping me and others clarify what is 'right' in my (their) mind and backing up why I (they) believe so.

If you really lack the sympathy, empathy, support, and or care to read my cries and situation than it is simple enough not to waiste the effort in replying, move on to the thread where you can actually make a contribution or benefit. This is Thailand (TIT), yes I agree but did you also know that This was Siam (TWS) and you can bet assure This Will Be Something Else (TWBSE) and most definately Change is Inevitable (CIE) ...moving on...

Many have asked questions like 'What makes you any different or more special than other farang?, etc.' I don't claim or expect to be treated more special than any other farang parent of a Thai child, If one is a parent to a Thai citizen, than he/she should have every right to be allowed to be the best father/mother to their offspring without the state holding them back with racist double standards. And there are logical and humane ways to garuntee someone's intent and nature as a parent. Is not a legal affadavit binding one to the law and conviction for failing to live up to their official word sufficient to garuntee that I won't just run out on my responsibility as a parent just to take advantage of an 'extended holiday' ???

Without being able to automatically show a quota of 400k, I can assure you I have the ability and cabability to provide for my son the health, happiness, and education than any other Thai citizen if not more being a native speaker of the world's most in demand language.

400 k or 10 grand just sitting in a bank account is unreasonable for most Thai parents independently raising children, and I highly doubt most of the immagration officers with children could meet such a quota without getting it from some other source. So the fathers that can't meet such a quota and are 'coerced' to dissapear, does the child at loss get some security check from immigration since they claim to be so concerned with the wellbeing of the child for even having such a high quota.

Yes, I admit that I have always had expectations that the country of my mother and blood would-should be more accepting of of one of its own direct decendents who has taken the effort and self initiative to learn the language, history, and national anthem among other things despite growing up in a foreign land untill the age of 18. But no, all of this has no value in a system that is selective on a double standard, unequal (inhumane) racist, status-financial basis controlled and enforced by underpaid police officers.

With the current system, any Joe, Jack or Jim with enough cash can qualify for residence (one year visa) simply by investing a certain amount of money in whatever i.e beer bar, real estate, etc. or simply marrying some hooker and meeting the financial quota. There is no initiative or requirements for him/her to learn anything about Thai culture, history, or language. Simply, show the money and you're in. Even the permanent residence status i.e. green card all comes down to a big bulk of cash as the bottom line. And the point is the whole system is a big contradiction to what Thai people strive to be or at least claim to represent as a Buddhist nation.

I don't recall anywhere in the national anthem or any Buddhist sermon or any national pledge that one must be financially elite to be legit to stay in this country. Or that if you want to be allowed to be the father of a Thai citizen in Thailand, you must make 4-10 times as much as the average income of the working class or show the amount of money in one year that atleast more than half of the country won't make gross in their lifetime. However, the lack of any real enforced constitution leaves our future Thai generations with a system that revolves around tea money, and a buttered beaurocracy that holds double standards to foreign nationals based on social and selective stratification.

And what am I teaching my son if I just accept such injustice, contradiction, and inhumanity with a grain of salt without any effort in using my voice to counter such ignorant racist practice ?

It's not like I am begging the Thai government to give me social welfare or some special freeby that puts a burden on Thai society. My Thai son deserves to have a father legally raise him in the country of his birth whether or not his father can pull 10 grand USD out of his bum or not.

Still got three months before my visa is up. So from here, looks like me and the wifey will make an attempt to borrow the sum of the quota from various relatives just for one day---enough time to print out a statement which shows such a sum and then return their money. This in fact was the suggestion that the big sargeant at immigration suggested to her. So aparently they don't really care if we actually have this money and use it to raise our child. All about surface and face...irrelevent and pointless to even have in the system if you ask me.

This will atleast buy me another year without closing the doors for permanent residency...From there, I can figure out whether it will be better for me to pursue Permanent residence or if it is in fact not too late to be naturalized Thai legit (as my right and due process, not via motivational tea money, etc.) . Either way, I've already decided that my son deserves to grow up with both his father and mother no matter what bumps may lie in the road.

Thanks for the support...

[greenwanderer108]

I don't understand why working illegally seems to be your only option. Don't you work for one of the big English Language papers here...surely a work permit isn't out of the question.

Three years of that, and you'd get your residency, which someone like you would get in a second.

For the last year and a half, I have freelanced for a periodical that is connected to a big English language paper. Aparently they can legally contract me for freelance work without any obligation as an employer (other than taxing me...go figure) so I'm not officialy employed with any company and thus legal in earning my independently---most of my work is via corespondance i.e. the computer solely on a freelance agreement.

I doubt that I could ever work for them as a real and legit employee because they couldn't afford to pay me the American citizen quota for legit employment in such a field for a non-government company (if I'm not mistaken must be 50-60k per month) let alone prove that an educated Thai is incapable of doing such work. And also, there's the fine line around the whole 'degree' stigma...Perhaps if I was 30 up, things would be easier, but I'm just a 'kid' as far they're concerned.

[samran]

Greeny, what about the work permit? If you are looking to get PR, having a work permit and and official job, with 3 years of tax returns, is one of the requirements if you are going to be on a 'B' visa.

I know that you can get PR via other routes, but I haven't heard too many people who have got it without having been here on an economic basis to begin with.

Just letting you know about another potential bump in the road thats all.

[samran]

sorry, you answered part of my question as you were posting it.

[thaihome]

I feel for you and the situation you find yourself in. I would like to point out that Thai Immigration did not put you in this situation, you did. Throughout your long eloquent rant I see no sign of you accepting any personal responsibility for anything. It is everyone else fault that you find yourself living in a foreign country without the funds or prospects. Is it Thai Immigrations fault you don't have the experience or education to get a decent job that would allow you stay here according the rules that everyone has to abide by? Is it Thai Immigration fault that you have neither the initiative nor the wither all to prove your eligibility for Thai citizenship?

Get a grip, kid and start taking responsibility for your own life and quit blaming other people for your own self induced problems. Life is tough and you make your own road.

TH

I think that you are mistaken for it seems that it was his PARENTS that deceided where he would be born and I can totally understand his deep down desire to return to the land of his ROOTS. I do not think this was a rant, but, rather a venting of his frustrations and anger that many of us have felt within the Asian way of life. Young people do this that many times causing older people like you and me to become insensitive toward their problems. Let's help people on the forum and give positive advise instead of dismissing them as CRY BABIES!

I think telling him to start taking responsibility for his own life and quit blaming the world for the position he finds himself in is giving positive advice. As a matter of fact, I believe it is the best advice he has ever got.

For every single complaint he makes the root cause is something HE did (or didn’t do). The citizenship issue a prime example of that. He claims to have taken the time to learn the language and culture before he ever came to Thailand. But he certainly did not take the time to learn the rules. He did not even take the time to learn that dual citizenship is allowed, by both the US and Thailand. No, he based his entire life on an urban myth that neither country allows it, something that has not been true for many years. The simplest why to have taken care of his entire problem would have been to a get a Thai passport before he left the US. What did he do? He came to Thailand and expected Thai Immigration to welcome him with open arms simply because he had a Thai mother.

TH

[samran]

visa's aside mate....

get a degree back in the states. Invest the time and money in it.

Clearly, you are a smart person, but if you are going to make it here in Thailand, a degree is the starting point. Do it in your home state and the fees will probably be cheaper. And it is not because employers necessarily mandate these things, but because there is a glut of english speaking Thai's with masters from overseas universities allow them to pick and choose. Where I work is a prime example of that.

[bina]

thaihome,

"The simplest why to have taken care of his entire problem would have been to a get a Thai passport before he left the US."

dont u ever read thru posts??

he is a thai/falang 20+ man w/ a newborn baby (check previous posts); his mother, a thai woman, came to the states many many years a go before he was born (as i understood it) and never registered him with the embassy of thailand when he was born (no mention of father, greenie? cant he get u the docs?) so he never got the tabian baan/ passport/thai id etc....

his mother died w/o him being able to get these documents

he needs original documentation for marriage, birth, death etc etc to get the passport etc....

so , he IS thai culturally and physically partially for what thats worth, speaks reads and writes thai (since he bombarded us with thai way back when he first started posting as an abonoxious 20+ year old) but is not 'legally' thai ...

but wants to live in thailand w/his kid and thai partner

not quite the same situation as a 'regular' falang with no ties to thailand

greenie, just be glad u dont want to come live in israel and prove u are jewish (we all had to do that!!) to live here as citizens

Edited June 16, 2006 by bina

[thaihome]

thaihome,

"The simplest way to have taken care of his entire problem would have been to a get a Thai passport before he left the US."

dont u ever read thru posts??

....

Yes I do read all the posts, do you?

My comment is based on the following from the the OP’s second post:

“The last trip to 'proving nationality' office, told that I would need to get every single original marriage certificate, divorce certificate, name change documents and death certificate translated and stamped by American embassy---of which I don't even have access to all such documents that tied me to my mother and my mother being Thai without making a trip to USA and formally requesting them all."

Now he can't afford to go back and he blames everyone else.

TH

[sbk]

thaihome,

"The simplest way to have taken care of his entire problem would have been to a get a Thai passport before he left the US."

dont u ever read thru posts??

....

Yes I do read all the posts, do you?

My comment is based on the following from the the OP’s second post:

“The last trip to 'proving nationality' office, told that I would need to get every single original marriage certificate, divorce certificate, name change documents and death certificate translated and stamped by American embassy---of which I don't even have access to all such documents that tied me to my mother and my mother being Thai without making a trip to USA and formally requesting them all."

Now he can't afford to go back and he blames everyone else.

TH

Maybe you missed this part of his post?:

As far as I know, the only way to get a Thai passport is if I proved Thai nationality as explained above or I showed my documents-case to the embassy in my home country's of which I already inquired several years ago and got the response from them that because I was of the age of majority I would be required to give up my American citizenship if I aquired Thai passport through them.

Which, btw, is incorrect information.

[samran]

As far as I know, the only way to get a Thai passport is if I proved Thai nationality as explained above or I showed my documents-case to the embassy in my home country's of which I already inquired several years ago and got the response from them that because I was of the age of majority I would be required to give up my American citizenship if I aquired Thai passport through them.

Which, btw, is incorrect information.

True enough, though there do appear to be arcane provisions which have never been applied in the real world. Greeny is in the same position as a bunch of my friends, automatically Thai by birth (tha citizenship is passed on regardless of place of birth) as well as being US nationals by virtue of the 14th ammendment which guarantees citizenship to all born on US soil. Just ask one Panthonthae Shinawatra....

[greenwanderer108]

Samran, good advice...something that should definately happen before the big 3 0...still plenty of time yet

Bina, you seem to got it right for the most part...

Thaihome, Let me get this straight, I should sit on my thumb and take it like a man ??? After all, it was my fault for being born to a naturalized Thai mother struggling to make ends meet in the USA, who herself was under jurisdiction/understanding that by making her naturlization oaths 30 years ago to the USA, that her Thai citizenship status would be lost (though not to be mistaken with national status and the rights that are entitled). So I can't blame my American father or mother who may have (but most likely didn't) know(n) about my birth rights as a dual national being born in the USA. Or maybe it's American society / public's society on a whole's fault for not having an extra copy of the Thai nationality act avialable and acceisible in every library branch from 1983 to 1996, so my mother with an american life/family/occupation could have easily known when she was still around to make it simple for me....no maybe you're right, why didn't I force my dad to make an effort to understand and learn about the culture/country of his spouse ?? Even though he met her in the USA and probably thought that Thailand was just some huge village country in the jungle near vietnam...nevertheless, it's my fault, I should have, could have, would have....but didn't.

You're pretty clever homeskip...Maybe I shouldn't even have waisted the time to register my son's birth at the US embassy and apply for his passport. After all, he should learn to take responsibility unlike his old man. YEa right, give me a break...

enough waisting time with this silliness...I've got more updates from today. It's been a crazy roller coaster ride with hopes and expectations as often in the Immigration Beurocracy.

So I go with the mom and kid back to Nationality Verification office at Immigration...now determined to make a final stand. This time, I would have some backup to help my case. The poo yai who takes cases eventually recognizes me and is wandering what happened...

'you know, poor, getting by, family now, my immigration sorrows, bla bla bla...I want to take advantage of my birth rights...yad a yada ya'

he takes a look at all my documents once again as I passionately counter every dead-end hope comment he gives about the unlikelies and difficulties

This time, I have a stamped and certified letter from a poo yai at the amphur of my mom's birth place that says he is convinced that the lady on the (now destroyed/lost in the old records system) copied birth certificate of my mother was in fact the same lady on my birth certificate...that pretty much cuts out all the name changes, marriages and divorce factors

Finally comes down to two other documents that needed to be legally verified to be used as evidence for my case. That is my birth certificate which clearly states my moms name and maiden name as well as her birth place being in Thailand, and a notarized copy of her death certificate.

All this, once touched up with A. Seal from the US Embassy and B. Seal/stamp from Ministry of foreign affairs will be enough evidence to extend my Thai visa for atleast another 6 months for the trial period the last major part of the Thai nationality verification...

duh duh duh.... DNA testing.

Idea is once I get that extra 6 months or whatever, just have to arrange a meeting with my mother's younger sister to do a hefty 17000 baht (8500 per person)DNA test at Thai government hospital that can verify that I am the blood kin of her, and thus the son of her older sister (which is clear in a 30 year old house registration that I dug up from a district office a few years ago) which is all backed up in the official evidence in the first place.

All this with all the right verified stamps, and the officer is finally after 4 years (3 attempts) sounding optimistic about my chances for getting a house registration, id card, and nationality...

1st step, he tells me, get to the embassy ASAP and get these vital records certified, stamped, sealed, than get them translated into Thai and on to the ministry of foreign affairs...and before your three months, will easily get that extension to proceed on to the next step.

Leaving the office feeling high, we rush back to the embassy...Dun da dun dun. Aparently, there is some major communication issues between Thai government officials and United States Consular agents....because after an hour of waiting, notary fees paid, form submitted, the agent tells me that the US embassy has no authority or power to give a government seal with anything dealing with a 'vital record' which includes birth certificates, death certificates, and marriage certificates ....

Dum dum dum dar.........

That's a surprise to me...what's that? have to go to four different government departments back in the USA to certify such records to be used overseas ??? Oh...when will these bumps stop ? ! ? I can't believe that the US embassy hasn't the authority to attest to the affadavit that my birth certificate with a Colorado register seal and the exact information that is in my passport (that was actually used to get my passport initially)...

so now, i'm left with the strategy of focusing my pleeds with the department of state for verifying I am who I say I am with a mother who's maiden name was xxx and was a national of Thailand, and died in the USA a decade ago...rather than go through the big snail mail process of requesting/purchasing new records and sending such vital records back and forth between different seal/stamp holders---of which will end up costing lots of time and money before it ever even gets in the hands of the ministry affairs official....Not to mention,half of the information in the documents are irrelevent for my case...Perhaps a simple affadavit, sworn oath that I am yada yada ya born in/on ya da dum to the Thai ya d a dee daddy dado dum stamped by the department of state (since the embassy aparently has no power despite the common belief of thai authorities) Is that possible ? Can/will the department of state stamp/seal a sworn verifiable oath-statement regarding vital records verifying that I am x from x of x....and if they would, can it be done via corespondance over seas?

I'm so wiped, forgive the jibber jabber, wabbers and sledge hammers that don't make a fense when we're trying to mence the sense ?

Edited June 16, 2006 by greenwanderer108