Chinese celery

[Kanga Japan]

Can someone please tell me which of the following is correct, for Chinese celery?

คื่นฉ่าย

คึ่นฉ่าย

I have also come across ขึ้นฉ่าย, but I think that is an error.

Thank you for your help.

[AyG]

It's none of those. It's คึ่นช่าย.

See http://tinyurl.com/n3p3d69 (Google image search) for proof.

[stoneyboy]

Hope this helps.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG and stoneyboy

Thank you both for your answers, but you have both given me different scripts.

[AyG]

Wikipedia states ขึ้นฉ่าย หรือ เซเลอรี (khuen chai or celery) suggesting that ขึ้นฉ่าย is the generic name for celery. See: http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/ขึ้นฉ่าย

This page distinguishes between the two: http://herb.thaibizcenter.com/HerbDetail.asp?id=2023

It includes the text (dodgy spacing included)

คื่นช่ายจีน(Chinesecelery)
ขึ้นฉ่าย(celery)

This supports the idea that ขึ้นฉ่าย is generic celery, and that คื่นช่าย specifically refers to Chinese celery.

Looking at recipes on the web lots of them using Chinese celery refer to it as ขึ้นฉ่าย (the generic term), but enough use คื่นช่าย to persuade me that this is the correct term for Chinese celery.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. Perhaps a native Thai speaker could enlighten us?

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you for your reply. I did not notice that you had replied until this morning, when I decided to ask which one of the two I received yesterday was correct. I opened the forum and your reply was there.

You have gone to a lot of trouble researching this, as usual and I thank you for that.

I think I might go with the idea that:

1. ขึ้นฉ่าย

This is the generic term for celery.

2. คื่นฉ่าย

This refers to Chinese celery, with the word คื่นช่ายจีน emphasizing this.

I notice that you did not mention คึ่นฉ่าย and wonder what this is.

As you suggested, perhaps a native Thai person could enlighten us further on this, so I will keep the post open.

Thank you so much, again.

[AyG]

I think I might go with the idea that:

1. ขึ้นฉ่าย

This is the generic term for celery.

2. คื่นฉ่าย

This refers to Chinese celery, with the word คื่นช่ายจีน emphasizing this.

I notice that you did not mention คึ่นฉ่าย and wonder what this is.

As you suggested, perhaps a native Thai person could enlighten us further on this, so I will keep the post open.

I think for 2. you meant คื่นช่าย not คื่นฉ่าย.

From a linguistic point of view I find this interesting. ขึ้น and คื่น are pronounced identically, apart from vowel length (short and long respectively). ช่าย is falling tone and ฉ่าย is low tone (both vowels long). Otherwise the sounds are the same. I suspect (but have no evidence) that an original Chinese word has entered Thai on two occasions, and possibly from two different Chinese languages. It's rather like the way that "gas" has entered Thai twice, once from American English, and once from British English, with the two different pronunciations means "petrol/gasoline" or "gas" (e.g. oxygen).

I suspect that คึ่นฉ่าย, which I didn't mention, is an erroneous hybrid of the two spellings.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you for your explanation.

Yes, I did make a mistake in 2, as you mentioned. For me, at my stage of reading, the vowels on the top are so small and difficult to distinguish the difference, that I was concentrating on them and did not notice the different consonant.

If I am correct, I don't think you mentioned anything about คื่นฉ่าย, except in your first mail. Would this be an error also? My apologies if you did comment on it further, but I could not find it.

Thanks for your help.

[AyG]

According to my theory, all the other variants, including คื่นฉ่าย are variations upon 1 & 2. They are close in pronunciation, differing only in vowel length and tone. Once you convert these to RTGS they are all going to be absolutely identical. I'd suggest ignore the variants. They're not important.

[Kanga Japan]

OK. Thanks AyG. Just wanted to be sure.