ISIS: The first terror group to build an Islamic State?

[CBR250]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

So what would YOU do? Hand out goodie bags and leaflets on how to integrate into the civilised world ?

Well, for a start, I wouldn't bother too much with half witted suggestions from TV posters. A lot of the mighty electronic warriors on TV would struggle to string enough words together to write a decent leaflet.

[CBR250]

I do want to say that I really dislike the gung-ho let's nuke 'em approach to problems that so many people safe behind their keyboards advocate. It is these armchair warriors who are responsible for so many senseless deaths over the past decades - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.

I am not saying that atrocities are not being committed either, or defending the IS. I am peace loving, but not a pacifist. I accept that military force may be necessary to contain the horrors being perpetrated by IS. I just hope any military action does not have the reek of Cheney, Bush and is cheered on by obese heroes sitting in their Lay-z-boys with a 6 pack or two. It's easy to call for a war when it is not you or your family members who may get sent home in a box.

Don't allow the atrocities to continue, but let cool heads prevail.

[GentlemanJim]

I may be having a dull moment here, but who suggested Nukes? I can't find it. The only thing I find is a reference to Nike? After that everyone starts talking about Nukes?

[Ulysses G.]

This may be the first time that I have ever agreed with you on ANYTHING. No one said anything about nukes.

[Steely Dan]

Here is an article that sums up the naïveté of Western leaders in dealing with the biggest threat of our times. Funnily enough some of our posters may consider the link to be from a 'hate' site, which is kind of ironic seeing as it opposes a group who just murdered 500 women and children by burying them alive, I can't recall the IDF or Basque separatists ever doing that.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/barack-obama-and-david-cameron-do-not-dare-even-now-tell-the-truth-about-what-islamic-state-or-is-are-or-what-motivates-them

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[CBR250]

I may be having a dull moment here, but who suggested Nukes? I can't find it. The only thing I find is a reference to Nike? After that everyone starts talking about Nukes?

I think the first mentions are #264 and #267. Others - the greenie eco types - just want to bomb the sh-- out of them with conventional weapons.

[Credo]

Northern Iraq is a vast and relatively empty area. A nuclear device would probably kill more sheep than people. It would be about the least effective weapon.

[CBR250]

Here is an article that sums up the naïveté of Western leaders in dealing with the biggest threat of our times. Funnily enough some of our posters may consider the link to be from a 'hate' site, which is kind of ironic seeing as it opposes a group who just murdered 500 women and children by burying them alive, I can't recall the IDF or Basque separatists ever doing that.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/barack-obama-and-david-cameron-do-not-dare-even-now-tell-the-truth-about-what-islamic-state-or-is-are-or-what-motivates-them

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Ah, yes. Another one of those commendably objective sites. The link doesn't work, but I can tell from the url (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/barack-obama-and-david-cameron-do-not-dare-even-now-tell-the-truth-about-what-islamic-state-or-is-are-or-what-motivates-them) that this is a carefully crafted, meticulous examination of the issues by impartial academics doing on-site research.

I look forward to being enlightened by "jihadwatch" once they work out how to deal with the complex technology required to post their articles online. Or maybe their server has been disrupted by the CIA / NSA and I'll never find out that it is all an anti-semitic plot.

[CBR250]

My apologies - Jihad watch has finally loaded. I read half of the Times while I waited. And, ok, it isn't quite the mad hatter's tea party I assumed. There are some good points to consider about the nature of the new ME drama. I think the bit about the paralysis of western leaders is not news - they were similarly paralysed over Gaza.

It is a pity that the agenda in the Middle East for the past few decades has not been to help create and develop moderate Islamic states. A moderate Palestine, for instance, would have been particularly useful as a buffer between Israel and the Arab world. But there has been an abundance of myopic policies from Israel and the US, and now these particularly nasty chickens are coming home to roost. And unless there is a radical change in thinking about how the west relates to the Muslim world, we will continue to suffer for our past ineptness. Surely it is time for a change. To paraphrase Santayana - those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat its errors.

[Steely Dan]

M apologies - Jihad watch has loaded. I shall check it out. And do my best to withhold scepticism.

I would incidentally have linked directly to the original source, but the Daily Mail seems to be blocked in Thailand hence my resorting to another source.

Incidentally you really ought to get your moral compass fixed if you seriously believe IS in anything but indiscriminate and the IDF is anything but targeted in its actions.

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[CBR250]

M apologies - Jihad watch has loaded. I shall check it out. And do my best to withhold scepticism.

I would incidentally have linked directly to the original source, but the Daily Mail seems to be blocked in Thailand hence my resorting to another source.

Incidentally you really ought to get your moral compass fixed if you seriously believe IS in anything but indiscriminate and the IDF is anything but targeted in its actions.

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I don't know how you concluded I believe anything positive about the IS. Not one positive word from me anywhere on this or any thread about their actions. In fact, I think I have been pretty scathing in my condemnation of them. Perhaps you are unable to appreciate that others may have a more complex world view than yours.

Sure, I have grave reservations about the IDF, especially given the evidence of hate they left behind in the houses and schools of Gazans. Remember the graffiti scrawled in the girls school that threatened rape? The graffiti carved into a coffee table of a Gazan family house trashed by the IDF that said "Good Arab = Dead Arab?" Do you really think that soldiers with that depth of animosity are carefully avoiding harming civilians in their actions?

Maybe on this thread we should leave the IDF aside. We may then find that you and I share a lot more common ground than in other arenas. My comments on the thread re Gaza indicate fairly clearly that I am concerned with justice and peace regardless of ethnicity, religion, and nationality - and that I am not a one-eyed unabashed supporter of any specific ideology.

[Mosha]

OK now on the outskirts of Aleppo, So at the Bospherous we arm the Greeks?

[Scott]

Please stay away from comparisons with the IDF. It is off-topic and will derail the thread.

[H1w4yR1da]

Sorry, Simple1. My tongue was so firmly in my cheek that it wasn't apparent. No, I have not signed up to the nuke 'em all brigade. I hate what is happening to innocent people in the ME - whether from ISIS or the IDF - and detest those who engage in depraved and cowardly acts. But I have not yet become so morally bereft that I think it is best to meet murder with murder.

That's the only language these uncivilized scum understand. Maybe if you spent time looking at the real issue instead of throwing barbs at posters who disagree with you, you wouldn't sound so ridiculously out of touch.

So, how would you deal with IS, formerly ISIS? Kumbaya's out! The negotiating table?

Pray, do tell?

Suzuki GSX-R1000 L3 182 hp in-line 4 Superbike

[nong38]

Finally the world seems to be waking up to the fact that these armed lunatics need dealing with before its too late, there is also a chance to get Russia back on side as well. A lot of shock an awe is required to destroy this barbaric rabble before it really gets out of hand.

Muslims, sunnis and shia who is on whose side? A year ago Iran was the black sheep, now? Who is bank rolling this bunch, somehow I get the impression its one of our "allies" in the Gulf, what a strange part of the world this is, how do you know who your enemy is and who your friend is? Seems to change like the wind.

For now I am happy for the US Navy and the RAF to bomb this lot until they dont move, but, that will not solve the problem of the middle east, its inheritantly unstable and there are rich backers who want to stoke things up again and again, will we ever understand their culture and how to deal with it?

First things first though, wipe this Islamic State off the map ( it was not there in the first place) and then lets take one step at a time.

[Johpa]

Here is an article that sums up the naïveté of Western leaders in dealing with the biggest threat of our times. Funnily enough some of our posters may consider the link to be from a 'hate' site, which is kind of ironic seeing as it opposes a group who just murdered 500 women and children by burying them alive, I can't recall the IDF or Basque separatists ever doing that.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/barack-obama-and-david-cameron-do-not-dare-even-now-tell-the-truth-about-what-islamic-state-or-is-are-or-what-motivates-them

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Although I agree that ISIS represents a long term existential threat to the Age of Enlightenment even with all its flaws, and thus to 'The West" and specifically Europe , but appealing to the ghosts of losers past Reagan and Thatcher will not move us forward.

[CBR250]

Sorry, Simple1. My tongue was so firmly in my cheek that it wasn't apparent. No, I have not signed up to the nuke 'em all brigade. I hate what is happening to innocent people in the ME - whether from ISIS or the IDF - and detest those who engage in depraved and cowardly acts. But I have not yet become so morally bereft that I think it is best to meet murder with murder.

That's the only language these uncivilized scum understand. Maybe if you spent time looking at the real issue instead of throwing barbs at posters who disagree with you, you wouldn't sound so ridiculously out of touch.

So, how would you deal with IS, formerly ISIS? Kumbaya's out! The negotiating table?

Pray, do tell?

Suzuki GSX-R1000 L3 182 hp in-line 4 Superbike

Wonderful that you provide a model of how not to throw barbs. Always good to have someone showing the way with such courtesy. But you don't seem to have thought this through very well - you want to respond to "uncivilised scum" by doing exactly what was done that led you to refer to them as "uncivilised scum". So where does that leave you?

I don't have an easy answer to IS - and have not claimed or implied I do. I doubt you want my views anyway, given the tone of your question. But I'll pretend we are having a rational discussion. So, I do have a set of principles that I apply to political decisions. I am not a pacifist, but I value peace. So I don't oppose military action, even the strategic bombing that has occurred. But I believe that knee-jerk over-the-top gung-ho military action - apparently favoured by you - usually causes many more problems than it solves. The endless body bags sent back from Iraq and Afghanistan indicate that the bomb-the-f----- out of 'em brigade aren't too bright. Iraq and Afghanistan got bombed - heavily. Plus lots of ground grunts and artillery and drones and air support. Over 50,000 young American guys were killed or seriously injured in those wars. And that military action that so many people demanded - as you are doing now - did it solve the problems in those 2 countries?

I would prefer to see some high level bods who are well versed in the intricate politics of the region - and without any colonialist agenda - working out how to respond to minimise current deaths and prevent future complications. Use the learning from all of the stuff ups of recent incursions. I imagine that this is precisely what the EU, US and UN are doing, and hopefully with a better class of people than in the Bush/Blair days. A military response is pretty well guaranteed to be part of this, but it should be surgical, not vengeful. And the political action will need to accompany this. Or, if you like, a negotiating table, where players can be found who will control the situation effectively. I bet there are a few people who wish Saddam was still with us.

[simple1]

I may be having a dull moment here, but who suggested Nukes? I can't find it. The only thing I find is a reference to Nike? After that everyone starts talking about Nukes?

Just what you you interpret the meaning as - throw some running shoes? Another postsers comment of a "few buckets of sunshine" really means airburst weapons. Rediculous...

A fair amount of BS going on with disclaimers.

[Bwanatickey]

The French are now arming the Kurds to repel attacks by IS who have weapons of mass destruction.

[Steely Dan]

Finally the world seems to be waking up to the fact that these armed lunatics need dealing with before its too late, there is also a chance to get Russia back on side as well. A lot of shock an awe is required to destroy this barbaric rabble before it really gets out of hand.

Muslims, sunnis and shia who is on whose side? A year ago Iran was the black sheep, now? Who is bank rolling this bunch, somehow I get the impression its one of our "allies" in the Gulf, what a strange part of the world this is, how do you know who your enemy is and who your friend is? Seems to change like the wind.

For now I am happy for the US Navy and the RAF to bomb this lot until they dont move, but, that will not solve the problem of the middle east, its inheritantly unstable and there are rich backers who want to stoke things up again and again, will we ever understand their culture and how to deal with it?

First things first though, wipe this Islamic State off the map ( it was not there in the first place) and then lets take one step at a time.

Who is funding them ? To varying degrees I would suggest their backers are Qatar and Turkey, the former being the HQ of a so called research institute on terrorism, but who Shimon Peres called the biggest funder of terrorism in the world today. Turkey has it's own megalomaniac whould be Caliph who is moving Turkey in that direction, though at a more gradual rate, they will be very unhappy at the thought of the Kurds being armed. Iran's insane leaders also have delusions of leading a Caliphate and have done everything in their power to de-stabilize the region, they might be on the receiving end of some blowback from this policy.

Meanwhile the Western leaders need to urgently deal with the fact that this little problem is no longer confined to the Middle East, 900 'French' passport holders are currently in Syria, now that's a foreign legion gone wrong.

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[Mosha]

Finally the world seems to be waking up to the fact that these armed lunatics need dealing with before its too late, there is also a chance to get Russia back on side as well. A lot of shock an awe is required to destroy this barbaric rabble before it really gets out of hand.

Muslims, sunnis and shia who is on whose side? A year ago Iran was the black sheep, now? Who is bank rolling this bunch, somehow I get the impression its one of our "allies" in the Gulf, what a strange part of the world this is, how do you know who your enemy is and who your friend is? Seems to change like the wind.

For now I am happy for the US Navy and the RAF to bomb this lot until they dont move, but, that will not solve the problem of the middle east, its inheritantly unstable and there are rich backers who want to stoke things up again and again, will we ever understand their culture and how to deal with it?

First things first though, wipe this Islamic State off the map ( it was not there in the first place) and then lets take one step at a time.

Who is funding them ? To varying degrees I would suggest their backers are Qatar and Turkey, the former being the HQ of a so called research institute on terrorism, but who Shimon Peres called the biggest funder of terrorism in the world today. Turkey has it's own megalomaniac whould be Caliph who is moving Turkey in that direction, though at a more gradual rate, they will be very unhappy at the thought of the Kurds being armed. Iran's insane leaders also have delusions of leading a Caliphate and have done everything in their power to de-stabilize the region, they might be on the receiving end of some blowback from this policy.

Meanwhile the Western leaders need to urgently deal with the fact that this little problem is no longer confined to the Middle East, 900 'French' passport holders are currently in Syria, now that's a foreign legion gone wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I think the Saudi Wahabi Sunnis are also in on it. They are behind a lot of the radicalisation of the Sunnis.

[nong38]

Finally the world seems to be waking up to the fact that these armed lunatics need dealing with before its too late, there is also a chance to get Russia back on side as well. A lot of shock an awe is required to destroy this barbaric rabble before it really gets out of hand.

Muslims, sunnis and shia who is on whose side? A year ago Iran was the black sheep, now? Who is bank rolling this bunch, somehow I get the impression its one of our "allies" in the Gulf, what a strange part of the world this is, how do you know who your enemy is and who your friend is? Seems to change like the wind.

For now I am happy for the US Navy and the RAF to bomb this lot until they dont move, but, that will not solve the problem of the middle east, its inheritantly unstable and there are rich backers who want to stoke things up again and again, will we ever understand their culture and how to deal with it?

First things first though, wipe this Islamic State off the map ( it was not there in the first place) and then lets take one step at a time.

Who is funding them ? To varying degrees I would suggest their backers are Qatar and Turkey, the former being the HQ of a so called research institute on terrorism, but who Shimon Peres called the biggest funder of terrorism in the world today. Turkey has it's own megalomaniac whould be Caliph who is moving Turkey in that direction, though at a more gradual rate, they will be very unhappy at the thought of the Kurds being armed. Iran's insane leaders also have delusions of leading a Caliphate and have done everything in their power to de-stabilize the region, they might be on the receiving end of some blowback from this policy.

Meanwhile the Western leaders need to urgently deal with the fact that this little problem is no longer confined to the Middle East, 900 'French' passport holders are currently in Syria, now that's a foreign legion gone wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I think the Saudi Wahabi Sunnis are also in on it. They are behind a lot of the radicalisation of the Sunnis.

Turkey is a member of Nato, Iran seems concerned about the IS almost as much as us and then there are the Saudis good friends of the West, well we thought so but someone out there is not what we thought. I wonder why Turkey is not accepted into the EU? Funny old world, well that part anyway, its always been unstable and perhaps it always will be, we need to take a firm stand with IS or they will just expand, they are not going to go away are they. They seem to have a penchant for killing defenceless peoples and in todays world that is not an acceptable way a civilized people should behave, its time to give them their comeuponce in a way they understand, prisoners cost money.

[CBR250]

Nong 38 said:

"They seem to have a penchant for killing defenceless peoples and in todays world that is not an acceptable way a civilized people should behave, its time to give them their comeuponce in a way they understand, prisoners cost money."

I agree, they are behaving barbarically. I share your anger and disgust at their actions based on news reports I have seen. But your "take no prisoners" line is also "not an acceptable way a civilized people should behave". There are Laws of War which, to earn the sobriquet of "civilised", we must follow.

The IS needs stopping, and quickly. But not in a way that begins yet another round of revenge cycles. There are already too many of these in the ME. And while there are clearly psychopaths in IS, there are probably plenty of ill-educated ignorant young men too who are just following the crowd because they lack the wit or opportunity to lead a fulfilling life. Young men are easily led. Mix that with a desire for excitement, a bunch of hormones and a liberal dose of brainwashing and they do all kinds of evil sh--. Remember the My Lai massacre in Vietnam? About 500 villagers were killed by US Infantry. Victims included children and infants. Women were gang-raped then murdered. Bodies were mutilated. Horrendous as it was, I don't think their behaviour would have justified a call to kill every US soldier in Vietnam - as is now being done regarding the soldiers in IS.

I was surprised in checking on the massacre for this post to discover that Lt William Calley, the officer in charge, was the only one convicted of the any of the killings. He was sentenced to life imprisonment, but only served 3.5 years. And even that was under house arrest, not in a prison.

[simple1]

Don't think any local ground forces fighting IS will observe the Rules of War. Foreign governments will not help young foreign fighters, won't receive any compassion, shot on sight or 'disappeared'.

[dr_lucas]

Who is funding them ? To varying degrees I would suggest their backers are Qatar and Turkey, the former being the HQ of a so called research institute on terrorism, but who Shimon Peres called the biggest funder of terrorism in the world today. Turkey has it's own megalomaniac whould be Caliph who is moving Turkey in that direction, though at a more gradual rate, they will be very unhappy at the thought of the Kurds being armed. Iran's insane leaders also have delusions of leading a Caliphate and have done everything in their power to de-stabilize the region, they might be on the receiving end of some blowback from this policy.

Meanwhile the Western leaders need to urgently deal with the fact that this little problem is no longer confined to the Middle East, 900 'French' passport holders are currently in Syria, now that's a foreign legion gone wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I think the Saudi Wahabi Sunnis are also in on it. They are behind a lot of the radicalisation of the Sunnis.

Turkey is a member of Nato, Iran seems concerned about the IS almost as much as us and then there are the Saudis good friends of the West, well we thought so but someone out there is not what we thought. I wonder why Turkey is not accepted into the EU? Funny old world, well that part anyway, its always been unstable and perhaps it always will be, we need to take a firm stand with IS or they will just expand, they are not going to go away are they. They seem to have a penchant for killing defenceless peoples and in todays world that is not an acceptable way a civilized people should behave, its time to give them their comeuponce in a way they understand, prisoners cost money.

Posts removed to allow replying.

The costs of imprisoning soldiers/enemies/terrorists should not be a factor in such decisions (and I personally doubt if it really is).

If it is possible to capture them alive without risking the lives & well beings of the western forces sent to capture them, then this should be the priority.

The main problem is that IS radical Islamist ideology is probably the most extreme, ruthless and dangerous in the world & to make things worse, they are quite well armed & organized.

Most if not all of their militants would rather die ("in the name of Allah") than be captured alive, and they won't stop their atrocities & pursuing their ideology and forcefully imposing the most radical/conservative interpretation of the "Sharia law" until they die (to be joined with [72?] virgins in paradise).

Many in the west view such radical terror groups as metastasizing cancer (and a serious threat to the international community, greater than Al-Qaeda's) and say that while you can't completely cure cancer, you usually can (and should) fight it, even at the risk (of killing/injuring "healthy cells", ie. western soldiers) involved.

ISIS: The cancer in Iraq the Obama administration should have seen coming

But he needs to start leading the international community in order to address this threat because it is a very serious threat.

They are very capable, I would say, more capable than al Qaeda on 9/11. And it needs to be addressed seriously.

Full Source: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/2014/08/14/isis-cancer-iraq-obama-administration-should-have-seen-coming

[Steely Dan]

Here is an account of the genocide taking place in Iraq from an Iraqi Christian, the details are quite horrific, yet the indifference shown by the West is in marked contrast to the intense focus they have on Gaza. Where are the marches, where are the calls for our governments to intervene and where is the realization that we have to fight IS either now or at some point in the future?

http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/08/do-not-wait-until-the-jihad-arrives-on-our-own-doorstep/

[Johpa]

Here is an account of the genocide taking place in Iraq from an Iraqi Christian, the details are quite horrific, yet the indifference shown by the West is in marked contrast to the intense focus they have on Gaza. Where are the marches, where are the calls for our governments to intervene and where is the realization that we have to fight IS either now or at some point in the future?

It is interesting the lack of interest that large vocal segments of the "Progessives" take into the sufferings of countless other peoples around the globe. Or perhaps it is the laser like focus they place on the plight of the Levantine Arabs. I have worked for the past few decades attempting to raise awareness of the plight of the minorities in Burma without being able to elicit much response. And the number of these people who care a whit about Tibet or he Kurds, well you can literally count them on your fingers in most larger communities. You can find more non-Arabs wearing a kafiya on your local college campus then finding people on that same campus who can locate Burma on a map. OK, admittedly that one might be a bit of an exaggeration to make my point.

So it does pose an interesting question as to why the post-modernist "progressives" find their unity, their amelioration of their anomie, by uniting behind the "Palestinian cause". It has become their primary marker of identification, even for those who have at most a shallow understanding of the issues. And why exactly is this cause so persistent amongst this generation when they gave up relatively quickly on their anti-capitalist "occupy Wall Street" movement which according to the very few intellectuals left, is the root cause of the problems in the Middle East. I don't have any answers although I think the need for some sort of focal point for group identity results from the disappointment in what Chris Hedges calls 'Brand Obama". It is an easy brand, wear a kafiya or protest against "Israeli aggression" and you show your identity no less than driving a Prius or a Subaru Outback.

[uptheos]

I may be having a dull moment here, but who suggested Nukes? I can't find it. The only thing I find is a reference to Nike? After that everyone starts talking about Nukes?

Maybe they didn't read it as Nike and saw what they wanted to see?

[CBR250]

I may be having a dull moment here, but who suggested Nukes? I can't find it. The only thing I find is a reference to Nike? After that everyone starts talking about Nukes?

Maybe they didn't read it as Nike and saw what they wanted to see?

No, it's there. Hard to spot when you only have one eye, tho'.

[Credo]

It is interesting the lack of interest that large vocal segments of the "Progessives" take into the sufferings of countless other peoples around the globe. Or perhaps it is the laser like focus they place on the plight of the Levantine Arabs. I have worked for the past few decades attempting to raise awareness of the plight of the minorities in Burma without being able to elicit much response. And the number of these people who care a whit about Tibet or he Kurds, well you can literally count them on your fingers in most larger communities. You can find more non-Arabs wearing a kafiya on your local college campus then finding people on that same campus who can locate Burma on a map. OK, admittedly that one might be a bit of an exaggeration to make my point.

So it does pose an interesting question as to why the post-modernist "progressives" find their unity, their amelioration of their anomie, by uniting behind the "Palestinian cause". It has become their primary marker of identification, even for those who have at most a shallow understanding of the issues. And why exactly is this cause so persistent amongst this generation when they gave up relatively quickly on their anti-capitalist "occupy Wall Street" movement which according to the very few intellectuals left, is the root cause of the problems in the Middle East. I don't have any answers although I think the need for some sort of focal point for group identity results from the disappointment in what Chris Hedges calls 'Brand Obama". It is an easy brand, wear a kafiya or protest against "Israeli aggression" and you show your identity no less than driving a Prius or a Subaru Outback.

I think that many view Gaza as a sort of modern day "Alamo". It is some sort of a pivotal time or place in history.