ISIS: The first terror group to build an Islamic State?

[Steely Dan]

It is interesting the lack of interest that large vocal segments of the "Progessives" take into the sufferings of countless other peoples around the globe. Or perhaps it is the laser like focus they place on the plight of the Levantine Arabs. I have worked for the past few decades attempting to raise awareness of the plight of the minorities in Burma without being able to elicit much response. And the number of these people who care a whit about Tibet or he Kurds, well you can literally count them on your fingers in most larger communities. You can find more non-Arabs wearing a kafiya on your local college campus then finding people on that same campus who can locate Burma on a map. OK, admittedly that one might be a bit of an exaggeration to make my point.

So it does pose an interesting question as to why the post-modernist "progressives" find their unity, their amelioration of their anomie, by uniting behind the "Palestinian cause". It has become their primary marker of identification, even for those who have at most a shallow understanding of the issues. And why exactly is this cause so persistent amongst this generation when they gave up relatively quickly on their anti-capitalist "occupy Wall Street" movement which according to the very few intellectuals left, is the root cause of the problems in the Middle East. I don't have any answers although I think the need for some sort of focal point for group identity results from the disappointment in what Chris Hedges calls 'Brand Obama". It is an easy brand, wear a kafiya or protest against "Israeli aggression" and you show your identity no less than driving a Prius or a Subaru Outback.

I think that many view Gaza as a sort of modern day "Alamo". It is some sort of a pivotal time or place in history.

Perhaps you are right, ever since the Soviets invented the Palestinians as a discrete nationality, as oppose to generic Arabs Israel has been looked on as the larger entity, in other words the oppressor. This is IMHO an inversion. Of reality, Israel being the Alamo of the West, just as Vienna and Constantinople were in times past. 312 Yazidis were murdered yesterday, Boko Haram murdered 1000 the day before, yet the attention given to these events is minuscule by comparison. I call this disparity a clear sign of politics at work not humanitarian arguments and as such Israel should treat outside pressure accordingly. Edited August 17, 2014 by Steely Dan

[boomerangutang]

I think that many view Gaza as a sort of modern day "Alamo". It is some sort of a pivotal time or place in history.

Interesting analogy. In a nutshell: The Alamo was on contested territory, and was a church not a fortress. Santa Anna and his Mexican Army were a far superior force. They stormed and overwhelmed the American defenders. However, he did a stupid and cruel deed afterwards: he killed every surviving defender. Sam Houston was not able to get to the Alamo in time to fight the Mexicans with his American troops. Houston slowly retreated. His lieutenants berated for not confronting the Mexicans. Houston kept saying, "wait, not now." Then, a few days later when the circumstances were favorable, Houston set a trap, turned and confronted the Mexican army and destroyed it.

It's interesting to compare the Alamo's defenders/Santa Anna's forces .....to the Israeli/Gaza quagmire, but the differences far outweigh the similarities.

[Credo]

It's symbolism and an analogy. I would hope they are different.

[thailiketoo]

I think that many view Gaza as a sort of modern day "Alamo". It is some sort of a pivotal time or place in history.

Interesting analogy. In a nutshell: The Alamo was on contested territory, and was a church not a fortress. Santa Anna and his Mexican Army were a far superior force. They stormed and overwhelmed the American defenders. However, he did a stupid and cruel deed afterwards: he killed every surviving defender. Sam Houston was not able to get to the Alamo in time to fight the Mexicans with his American troops. Houston slowly retreated. His lieutenants berated for not confronting the Mexicans. Houston kept saying, "wait, not now." Then, a few days later when the circumstances were favorable, Houston set a trap, turned and confronted the Mexican army and destroyed it.

It's interesting to compare the Alamo's defenders/Santa Anna's forces .....to the Israeli/Gaza quagmire, but the differences far outweigh the similarities.

There was another identical mission to the Alamo at Goliad. At Goliad the Mexicans marched out the Americans who had surrendered and then slaughtered them as they stood in line all except for the doctor if my memory is accurate. A few days later the Americans with cries of, "remember the Alamo and remember Goliad slaughtered the Mexicans who were yelling me no Alamo, me no Goliad" 630 Mexicans died vs 9 Texans. If you know anything about battles you can figure what happened when KIA's were 630 to 9.

My point is the same sort of trading massacres is the kind of thing that does not stop until one side gets killed and leaves the field.

[Steely Dan]

I think that many view Gaza as a sort of modern day "Alamo". It is some sort of a pivotal time or place in history.

Interesting analogy. In a nutshell: The Alamo was on contested territory, and was a church not a fortress. Santa Anna and his Mexican Army were a far superior force. They stormed and overwhelmed the American defenders. However, he did a stupid and cruel deed afterwards: he killed every surviving defender. Sam Houston was not able to get to the Alamo in time to fight the Mexicans with his American troops. Houston slowly retreated. His lieutenants berated for not confronting the Mexicans. Houston kept saying, "wait, not now." Then, a few days later when the circumstances were favorable, Houston set a trap, turned and confronted the Mexican army and destroyed it.

It's interesting to compare the Alamo's defenders/Santa Anna's forces .....to the Israeli/Gaza quagmire, but the differences far outweigh the similarities.

There was another identical mission to the Alamo at Goliad. At Goliad the Mexicans marched out the Americans who had surrendered and then slaughtered them as they stood in line all except for the doctor if my memory is accurate. A few days later the Americans with cries of, "remember the Alamo and remember Goliad slaughtered the Mexicans who were yelling me no Alamo, me no Goliad" 630 Mexicans died vs 9 Texans. If you know anything about battles you can figure what happened when KIA's were 630 to 9.

My point is the same sort of trading massacres is the kind of thing that does not stop until one side gets killed and leaves the field.

Negotiation and appeasement has really worked a charm since 2009 has it not, it's high time Islamism was treated like the cancer it is, negotiation with a totalitarian ideology is a non starter.

[boomerangutang]

It's symbolism and an analogy. I would hope they are different.

you're right, but I wanted to use your comment as a springboard to making a further mention of the Alamo.

[Morch]

Finally the world seems to be waking up to the fact that these armed lunatics need dealing with before its too late, there is also a chance to get Russia back on side as well. A lot of shock an awe is required to destroy this barbaric rabble before it really gets out of hand.

Muslims, sunnis and shia who is on whose side? A year ago Iran was the black sheep, now? Who is bank rolling this bunch, somehow I get the impression its one of our "allies" in the Gulf, what a strange part of the world this is, how do you know who your enemy is and who your friend is? Seems to change like the wind.

For now I am happy for the US Navy and the RAF to bomb this lot until they dont move, but, that will not solve the problem of the middle east, its inheritantly unstable and there are rich backers who want to stoke things up again and again, will we ever understand their culture and how to deal with it?

First things first though, wipe this Islamic State off the map ( it was not there in the first place) and then lets take one step at a time.

Who is funding them ? To varying degrees I would suggest their backers are Qatar and Turkey, the former being the HQ of a so called research institute on terrorism, but who Shimon Peres called the biggest funder of terrorism in the world today. Turkey has it's own megalomaniac whould be Caliph who is moving Turkey in that direction, though at a more gradual rate, they will be very unhappy at the thought of the Kurds being armed. Iran's insane leaders also have delusions of leading a Caliphate and have done everything in their power to de-stabilize the region, they might be on the receiving end of some blowback from this policy.

Meanwhile the Western leaders need to urgently deal with the fact that this little problem is no longer confined to the Middle East, 900 'French' passport holders are currently in Syria, now that's a foreign legion gone wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Turkey does not seem to be on friendly terms with ISIS.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/isis-militants-kidnap-turkish-diplomats-consulate-mosul-iraq

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/01/30/Turkish-army-strikes-ISIS-convoy-in-Syria.html

ISIS was tied to several terrorist attacks within Turkey as well.

[Steely Dan]

Finally the world seems to be waking up to the fact that these armed lunatics need dealing with before its too late, there is also a chance to get Russia back on side as well. A lot of shock an awe is required to destroy this barbaric rabble before it really gets out of hand.

Muslims, sunnis and shia who is on whose side? A year ago Iran was the black sheep, now? Who is bank rolling this bunch, somehow I get the impression its one of our "allies" in the Gulf, what a strange part of the world this is, how do you know who your enemy is and who your friend is? Seems to change like the wind.

For now I am happy for the US Navy and the RAF to bomb this lot until they dont move, but, that will not solve the problem of the middle east, its inheritantly unstable and there are rich backers who want to stoke things up again and again, will we ever understand their culture and how to deal with it?

First things first though, wipe this Islamic State off the map ( it was not there in the first place) and then lets take one step at a time.

Who is funding them ? To varying degrees I would suggest their backers are Qatar and Turkey, the former being the HQ of a so called research institute on terrorism, but who Shimon Peres called the biggest funder of terrorism in the world today. Turkey has it's own megalomaniac whould be Caliph who is moving Turkey in that direction, though at a more gradual rate, they will be very unhappy at the thought of the Kurds being armed. Iran's insane leaders also have delusions of leading a Caliphate and have done everything in their power to de-stabilize the region, they might be on the receiving end of some blowback from this policy.

Meanwhile the Western leaders need to urgently deal with the fact that this little problem is no longer confined to the Middle East, 900 'French' passport holders are currently in Syria, now that's a foreign legion gone wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Turkey does not seem to be on friendly terms with ISIS.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/isis-militants-kidnap-turkish-diplomats-consulate-mosul-iraq

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/01/30/Turkish-army-strikes-ISIS-convoy-in-Syria.html

ISIS was tied to several terrorist attacks within Turkey as well.

Well according to the FT article Erdogan is against air strikes on ISIS, which is in marked contrast to his advocacy of air strikes against the Assad regime.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ae101292-f7b0-11e3-90fa-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3AvgBvsyK

[Morch]

Finally the world seems to be waking up to the fact that these armed lunatics need dealing with before its too late, there is also a chance to get Russia back on side as well. A lot of shock an awe is required to destroy this barbaric rabble before it really gets out of hand.

Muslims, sunnis and shia who is on whose side? A year ago Iran was the black sheep, now? Who is bank rolling this bunch, somehow I get the impression its one of our "allies" in the Gulf, what a strange part of the world this is, how do you know who your enemy is and who your friend is? Seems to change like the wind.

For now I am happy for the US Navy and the RAF to bomb this lot until they dont move, but, that will not solve the problem of the middle east, its inheritantly unstable and there are rich backers who want to stoke things up again and again, will we ever understand their culture and how to deal with it?

First things first though, wipe this Islamic State off the map ( it was not there in the first place) and then lets take one step at a time.

Who is funding them ? To varying degrees I would suggest their backers are Qatar and Turkey, the former being the HQ of a so called research institute on terrorism, but who Shimon Peres called the biggest funder of terrorism in the world today. Turkey has it's own megalomaniac whould be Caliph who is moving Turkey in that direction, though at a more gradual rate, they will be very unhappy at the thought of the Kurds being armed. Iran's insane leaders also have delusions of leading a Caliphate and have done everything in their power to de-stabilize the region, they might be on the receiving end of some blowback from this policy.

Meanwhile the Western leaders need to urgently deal with the fact that this little problem is no longer confined to the Middle East, 900 'French' passport holders are currently in Syria, now that's a foreign legion gone wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Turkey does not seem to be on friendly terms with ISIS.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/isis-militants-kidnap-turkish-diplomats-consulate-mosul-iraq

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/01/30/Turkish-army-strikes-ISIS-convoy-in-Syria.html

ISIS was tied to several terrorist attacks within Turkey as well.

Well according to the FT article Erdogan is against air strikes on ISIS, which is in marked contrast to his advocacy of air strikes against the Assad regime.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ae101292-f7b0-11e3-90fa-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3AvgBvsyK

If this is the article you meant (your link led me elsewhere) - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ae101292-f7b0-11e3-90fa-00144feabdc0.html - then it is dated June 19th, when Erdogan was still on the campaign trails and saying a lot of

things.

Even so, with ISIS holding around 80 Turkish hostages, some high profile, Erdogan is probably not going to try

anything too risky. Guess they are as clueless as how to go about it as most neighbors are. Wait and see will

be the most probable course of action as far as Turkey goes. But hardly think they are pals with ISIS.

[Steely Dan]

Finally the world seems to be waking up to the fact that these armed lunatics need dealing with before its too late, there is also a chance to get Russia back on side as well. A lot of shock an awe is required to destroy this barbaric rabble before it really gets out of hand.

Muslims, sunnis and shia who is on whose side? A year ago Iran was the black sheep, now? Who is bank rolling this bunch, somehow I get the impression its one of our "allies" in the Gulf, what a strange part of the world this is, how do you know who your enemy is and who your friend is? Seems to change like the wind.

For now I am happy for the US Navy and the RAF to bomb this lot until they dont move, but, that will not solve the problem of the middle east, its inheritantly unstable and there are rich backers who want to stoke things up again and again, will we ever understand their culture and how to deal with it?

First things first though, wipe this Islamic State off the map ( it was not there in the first place) and then lets take one step at a time.

Who is funding them ? To varying degrees I would suggest their backers are Qatar and Turkey, the former being the HQ of a so called research institute on terrorism, but who Shimon Peres called the biggest funder of terrorism in the world today. Turkey has it's own megalomaniac whould be Caliph who is moving Turkey in that direction, though at a more gradual rate, they will be very unhappy at the thought of the Kurds being armed. Iran's insane leaders also have delusions of leading a Caliphate and have done everything in their power to de-stabilize the region, they might be on the receiving end of some blowback from this policy.

Meanwhile the Western leaders need to urgently deal with the fact that this little problem is no longer confined to the Middle East, 900 'French' passport holders are currently in Syria, now that's a foreign legion gone wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Turkey does not seem to be on friendly terms with ISIS.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/isis-militants-kidnap-turkish-diplomats-consulate-mosul-iraq

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/01/30/Turkish-army-strikes-ISIS-convoy-in-Syria.html

ISIS was tied to several terrorist attacks within Turkey as well.

Well according to the FT article Erdogan is against air strikes on ISIS, which is in marked contrast to his advocacy of air strikes against the Assad regime.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ae101292-f7b0-11e3-90fa-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3AvgBvsyK

If this is the article you meant (your link led me elsewhere) - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ae101292-f7b0-11e3-90fa-00144feabdc0.html - then it is dated June 19th, when Erdogan was still on the campaign trails and saying a lot of

things.

Even so, with ISIS holding around 80 Turkish hostages, some high profile, Erdogan is probably not going to try

anything too risky. Guess they are as clueless as how to go about it as most neighbors are. Wait and see will

be the most probable course of action as far as Turkey goes. But hardly think they are pals with ISIS.

What I'm driving at is the lack of will Turkey has shown in stopping Jihaddists from Europe transiting its borders to reach Iraq and Syria. This reluctance no doubt stemmed from Turkey's desire to topple the Assad regime. They are now suffering blowback from this move seeing as recent gains by Syria and her proxies have caused ISIS to seek other routes to smuggle oil out and let fighters join them. It would appear you don't have to be American to suffer blowback and with Turkish hostages held by ISIS I suspect they will be reluctant to police their borders against Jihaddists heading for Iraq.

[simple1]

Back in June Turkey’s Prime Minister warned of the risks of launching air strikes against Islamist militants in Iraq amid concerns about the fate of dozens of Turkish citizens captured by IS. Will he now change his mind and authorise attacks from US bases in Turkey?

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ae101292-f7b0-11e3-90fa-00144feabdc0.html

Isis surges towards the borders of Turkey as West mulls options

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/isis-islamic-state-surges-to-turkish-border

US 'set to launch air strikes' on senior Isis terror chiefs in Syria

White House will 'take action' against threats as Turkey comes under pressure to halt flow of jihadists across its border

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/us-air-strikes-isis-commanders-syria-considered

Edited August 24, 2014 by simple1

[Steely Dan]

Back in June Turkey’s Prime Minister warned of the risks of launching air strikes against Islamist militants in Iraq amid concerns about the fate of dozens of Turkish citizens captured by IS. Will he now change his mind and authorise attacks from US bases in Turkey?

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ae101292-f7b0-11e3-90fa-00144feabdc0.html

Isis surges towards the borders of Turkey as West mulls options

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/isis-islamic-state-surges-to-turkish-border

US 'set to launch air strikes' on senior Isis terror chiefs in Syria

White House will 'take action' against threats as Turkey comes under pressure to halt flow of jihadists across its border

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/us-air-strikes-isis-commanders-syria-considered

It looks like we were on exactly the same page, the second link you enclosed was the article I just read. The bit about Turkish police being more keen on stopping foreign fighters than Erdogan's intelligence service is very revealing. Then we come to Qatar, who the US recently entered into a multi-billion dollar arms deal with, who underwrote the $2 billion dollar Hamas tunnel building work and who have just been accused of funding terrorism by a German politician. Remember the US tried to appoint Turkey and Qatar as mediators between Israel and Hamas, not Egypt or Saudi Arabia.

Is it any wonder golf seems to preoccupy Obama whilst ISIS run riot, whilst Cameron goes surfing, ISIS what crisis? As the Daily Mirror quipped.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/08/20/German-minister-accuses-Qatar-of-financing-ISIS-.html#.U_SIxLqjMHA.twitter

Edited August 24, 2014 by Steely Dan

[Bwanatickey]

All the more reasons for the West to stay out of this, let this region sort their own differences out. It is a crazy part of the world, and they like nothing better than to drag outsiders into their arguments.

[MJP]

Afghan militants Hezb-e-Islami 'may join Islamic State'

Fighters from a militant Islamic group in Afghanistan, allied to the Taliban, have told the BBC they are considering joining forces with Islamic State (IS).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29009125

This is gearing up to be a long, slow burning World War III.

[MJP]

Islamic State accused of 'ethnic cleansing on a historic scale'

Another survivor managed to escape after a Muslim man helped him. He told Amnesty International: "Some could not move and could not save themselves; they lay in agony waiting to die. They died a horrible death."

http://www.theweek.co.uk/middle-east/islamic-state/60225/islamic-state-accused-of-ethnic-cleansing-on-a-historic-scale#ixzz3CCZaSo2n

Only Muslims can solve the extremist problem. The glimmer of light is in the quote.

[Scott]

Troll post and reply deleted.