Luxury condo in CM?

[Globalist]

Would anyone know if there are any plans by any major developers to build a grade A / luxury condo project somewhere in Chiang Mai?

I'm aware that there are a couple of very old ones that are of decent quality (e.g. Furama, Floral), but I'm looking for an upcoming high-end project.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Globalist

[wisemonkey]

I am in the same boat: I have found these ones:

Karnkanok Condo 3

Baan Suan Greenery Hill

Na Tara.

Also this one looks very A grade, not sure if its built yet or not: The Alps (google it, not sure the rules of if I am allowed to post links or not) made or being made by a Singaporean firm.. looks amazing.

Let me know if you find any others,

Cheers,

Alex

[evenstevens]

give green valley condo a google

[Globalist]

Thanks for feedback!

Many of those are already completed, so less interesting for me I'm afraid, as I want to buy off plan.

Those that look nicest on paper IMHO are Green Valley and Alps, both by Kingsfield Asia. Especially Green Valley looks nice, although it is golf-focused (which can be both good and bad).

I researched Kingsfield Asia a bit and it seems it's formally a Thai company, with some Singaporean connections (e.g. architect), which has recently started some developments (only?) in Chiang Mai. They seem affiliated with another (mysterious) company called Quality Condo.

Does anyone have any feedback on the track record of Kingsfield/Quality Condo...?

It still seems like none of the major A grade developers have come to Chiang Mai yet, they all stay in Bangkok, Phuket and Pattaya and still believe there is no high end rental market in CM...

Land and Houses, a very solid developer (did e.g. Terminal 21 in Bangkok), has one off-plan project in CM called "North", but not A grade...

Edited June 13, 2014 by Globalist

[mccw]

Nimmana looks like best location and facility on offer right now/ coming up.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[evenstevens]

gee thats bloody frightening,to say the least

vibe may i politely asked

u say that it took 9 months to fix etc etc,,i take it ,u did not hand the full balance over to the developer until bungled work was completed to your satifaction?

did u pay the extra 40k for the wall paper?

many thks for the heads up,it is greatly appreciated

[Beng]

Thanks for feedback!

Many of those are already completed, so less interesting for me I'm afraid, as I want to buy off plan.

Those that look nicest on paper IMHO are Green Valley and Alps, both by Kingsfield Asia. Especially Green Valley looks nice, although it is golf-focused (which can be both good and bad).

I researched Kingsfield Asia a bit and it seems it's formally a Thai company, with some Singaporean connections (e.g. architect), which has recently started some developments (only?) in Chiang Mai. They seem affiliated with another (mysterious) company called Quality Condo.

Does anyone have any feedback on the track record of Kingsfield/Quality Condo...?

It still seems like none of the major A grade developers have come to Chiang Mai yet, they all stay in Bangkok, Phuket and Pattaya and still believe there is no high end rental market in CM...

Land and Houses, a very solid developer (did e.g. Terminal 21 in Bangkok), has one off-plan project in CM called "North", but not A grade...

We bought a condo from "quality condo". Took them 9 months to fix all the errors before we could move in. They cut so many corners it was shocking. Have spoke to many many others that had the same thing. Major issues that they had to fix. Example was there was to be a water pipe and drain in the kitchen for a washing machine (don't ask me why). Well, the drain was there, where was the water pipe? Cemented over! They came with a hammer drill and stated to punch holes in the wall until they found it. A wall that was nicely wall papered. What a mess.

A friend bought a condo and found that there was NO water supply to the kitchen, and "quality condo" told them that the owner they bought it from had requested that. That was until the owner and the buyer both confronted the developer. Who does not want a water source in the kitchen??

Lies upon lies.

We were told to that our unit comes with wall paper. It was written in the sales contract. So we go to the show room and choose wall paper from the books that THEY gave to us to pick. Few weeks later we get a bill for 40K from the developer. He said the wall paper that we chose was "pang" and wanted us to pay. No where in the contract did it state a max value of wall paper. And it was from their own samples!! Freakin unreal!! This type of thing went on for months and months. It really was a horrible experience.

Bathroom had to be smashed out 2 times over due to shoddy work. We had to change the mains breaker box on our own after moving in as things kept blowing and sparking. Scary. Also, the building roof seal was gone and water was pooling, and even though it was "under warranty" it took legal threats before the developer would "fix it". And guess what he did when he fixed it? A cheap repair that bubbled up after only one week.

These are only a few of the issues that we had to deal with. Sad to say….there are many more. Buyer beware.

Thanks for telling, hopefully this will save others a big headache.

[Globalist]

Thanks VIBE, and sorry to hear about your experiences.. not exactly what you like to go through moving into a brand new condo...

Having quite some global property experience, I am generally VERY sceptical to developers in Thailand. Having said that, I am aware that a few of them are in fact very professional. For example, I have personally very good experience of RaimonLand.

Would be interesting to hear feedback from others regarding Kingsfield / Quality Condo..

[Globalist]

Nimmana looks like best location and facility on offer right now/ coming up.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nimmana does look very good, at least on paper. Also this developer (Key Star) does not have any track record, the owners were apparently in the rice (!) business before.

Do you know the interior specs, like flooring quality, kitchen surfaces, central A/C or not, hot water at all sources or not, etc ? (Can't tell from web site) The pictures from their computer simulated photos look A grade but pictures from their mock-up room look more like B grade...

The location is very good in principle, but any opinions on airplane noise, it looks like right in the flight path.. (?)

Edited June 15, 2014 by Globalist

[chiang mai]

Perhaps check out Serene Lake/North Condo.

[Globalist]

Perhaps check out Serene Lake/North Condo.

Yes, I did thanks, I mentioned it above. The good thing is that it is developed by Land and Houses (L&H). But the design and specs appear somewhat underwhelming to me.

[mccw]

Nimmana looks like best location and facility on offer right now/ coming up.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nimmana does look very good, at least on paper. Also this developer (Key Star) does not have any track record, the owners were apparently in the rice (!) business before.

Do you know the interior specs, like flooring quality, kitchen surfaces, central A/C or not, hot water at all sources or not, etc ? (Can't tell from web site) The pictures from their computer simulated photos look A grade but pictures from their mock-up room look more like B grade...

The location is very good in principle, but any opinions on airplane noise, it looks like right in the flight path.. (?)

I think it has a central hot water to run to showers etc/ without having separate need to install separate units at each spot like the older condos. Also there is plumbing and wastes included for washing machine. The flooring is a good quality laminate or can have tiles; the laminate is standard. Air con to every room as standard and pipes hidden in the walls.

I have been to look around the site and seen the plumbing and sparks going in. Also checked the materials they'll be using for finishing. On the construction side; the infill (ie walls between the posts and beams) are using quality blocks and concrete- compared to other Thai buildings of a lower standard using the rubbish little bricks and more mortar than brick.

The floor plans / layout look like a good use of space; like fitting in 1 and 2 bedrooms with living room; like a western or UK style use of space- more rooms but a smaller and better designed use of the same space- compared to the old units of one massive studio room, which kinda wastes space and is harder to subdivide to make extra room without loosing light or whatever.

I am aware they are a first time developer / project for this company but hear from friends in the industry that they have employed a good experienced team and are going at it for quality and no problems, especially since the are wanting to do multiple projects and want to secure a good reputation. Money from rice trading maybe; but money is money to buy the experience of others- it's not like every financier is or needs to be a qualified architect to do their project- I say it comes down to the quality of the team put together.

Regards noise- they are using good glazing and like I said- the blocks in the walls are better insulation than most. I spent several hours over several days there and didn't notice any plane sound issues- nothing like as bad as out over the hangdong road by bigC.

Regards other projects- these ones around the highways maybe ok for farang wanting to buy and live long term in it themselves; but from a rental point I can not see why anybody would rent a condo out of town when got the same money they could rent a house. Only reason to buy a condo outside I can see is for quieter living with property in own name. So could be hard to rent and maybe a smaller market for re sale I not sure.

Regards luxury condo market- I would say it's look like a shortage of real quality units in Chiang Mai available. Especially in that prime location. So I think a premium / better return maybe available than getting another of the hundreds of low end aging condos which are swamping the market already. I expect there are plenty of people with money here too but after a short time in town or not finding a decent quality they move to a nicer house out side town and just accept to get a car and drive. I know lots of people renting houses over 50 or 60k pm. I think a good sized unit in nimmana could fetch in the same range. 118sqm with an nice view for example.

This is what I am hoping anyway- since I deposit already ;-)

[Globalist]

Nimmana looks like best location and facility on offer right now/ coming up.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nimmana does look very good, at least on paper. Also this developer (Key Star) does not have any track record, the owners were apparently in the rice (!) business before.

Do you know the interior specs, like flooring quality, kitchen surfaces, central A/C or not, hot water at all sources or not, etc ? (Can't tell from web site) The pictures from their computer simulated photos look A grade but pictures from their mock-up room look more like B grade...

The location is very good in principle, but any opinions on airplane noise, it looks like right in the flight path.. (?)

I think it has a central hot water to run to showers etc/ without having separate need to install separate units at each spot like the older condos. Also there is plumbing and wastes included for washing machine. The flooring is a good quality laminate or can have tiles; the laminate is standard. Air con to every room as standard and pipes hidden in the walls.

I have been to look around the site and seen the plumbing and sparks going in. Also checked the materials they'll be using for finishing. On the construction side; the infill (ie walls between the posts and beams) are using quality blocks and concrete- compared to other Thai buildings of a lower standard using the rubbish little bricks and more mortar than brick.

The floor plans / layout look like a good use of space; like fitting in 1 and 2 bedrooms with living room; like a western or UK style use of space- more rooms but a smaller and better designed use of the same space- compared to the old units of one massive studio room, which kinda wastes space and is harder to subdivide to make extra room without loosing light or whatever.

I am aware they are a first time developer / project for this company but hear from friends in the industry that they have employed a good experienced team and are going at it for quality and no problems, especially since the are wanting to do multiple projects and want to secure a good reputation. Money from rice trading maybe; but money is money to buy the experience of others- it's not like every financier is or needs to be a qualified architect to do their project- I say it comes down to the quality of the team put together.

Regards noise- they are using good glazing and like I said- the blocks in the walls are better insulation than most. I spent several hours over several days there and didn't notice any plane sound issues- nothing like as bad as out over the hangdong road by bigC.

Regards other projects- these ones around the highways maybe ok for farang wanting to buy and live long term in it themselves; but from a rental point I can not see why anybody would rent a condo out of town when got the same money they could rent a house. Only reason to buy a condo outside I can see is for quieter living with property in own name. So could be hard to rent and maybe a smaller market for re sale I not sure.

Regards luxury condo market- I would say it's look like a shortage of real quality units in Chiang Mai available. Especially in that prime location. So I think a premium / better return maybe available than getting another of the hundreds of low end aging condos which are swamping the market already. I expect there are plenty of people with money here too but after a short time in town or not finding a decent quality they move to a nicer house out side town and just accept to get a car and drive. I know lots of people renting houses over 50 or 60k pm. I think a good sized unit in nimmana could fetch in the same range. 118sqm with an nice view for example.

This is what I am hoping anyway- since I deposit already ;-)

Thanks Mccw! Since you are a buyer, you're obviuously not completely unbiased ;-) but it also means you've done your homework and your input does seem largely objective.

I think I might go there myself and have a look soon.

Another issue that comes to mind re CM is building standards w.r.t. earthquakes..

[mccw]

I don't know the technicals but they said the Nimanna is built to withstand up to an 8.1 or something. (I deposited before the earthquake and got an email from them about it to say no damage and how they designed for withstanding quakes).

Not sure about other places. But; The 6.1 or 6.4 we just had was pretty big for these parts and not really and damage on the bigger buildings; I think the big ones use propper teams and higher checks needed on structural integrity- where as the smaller ones would be more of a worry.

[evenstevens]

Nimmana looks like best location and facility on offer right now/ coming up.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I spent several hours over several days there and didn't notice any plane sound issues- nothing like as bad as out over the hangdong road by bigC.

aircraft noise generally is nt a major problem, unless the sensless jockeys from wing 41 start whinning there jets overhead

had a bow peep when they were in the foundation stages

very impressed with model showroom and service from sales staff

but

the condo position, and access to and from, plus noise polluotion were a major concern to me

hell i would do my crumpet taking on nimiheidin road ,when i wanted to leave,or come in

and the condo is already flanked at touching range by ban thai and the unique, the vacant land on the west side will be soon be developed(just a matter of time)

and that whole area to the canal road will be a sea of condos(again just a matter of time)

and off my top of my head at 80.000k a sq metre i immediately trembled at that figure

but don t be dismayed at my post, been wrong plenty of times before, and i sincerely wish u the best of luck on your investment

and i will leave you with the following

luck and good fortune follow the brave,and its a great life if u don.t weaken

[northernjohn]

Perhaps check out Serene Lake/North Condo.

Yes, I did thanks, I mentioned it above. The good thing is that it is developed by Land and Houses (L&H). But the design and specs appear somewhat underwhelming to me.

If you are buying and it is not built yet can you not redesign it and get a new price from them on your design?

Glad to see you are checking on the people behind the projects.

[mccw]

Hi evenstevens

Just happened to be reading reutures app and thought this relevant.

""

Prime real estate in Dubai costs between $6,200 and $7,500 per square meter ($580-700 per square foot), against $27,600-33,700 in Singapore, according to Knight Frank.

""

Now I know chiang Mai is no hongkong. But compared to prime bkk or Puket it's still a third to half price.

So looking both globally and locally I reason that 80kbht for top location and quality is a reasonable price and towards the better value side. Over the next 5 to 10 years and out I think the land prices in Chiangmai will keep going up as the population increases.

Personally I see Chiangmai as a great growth oppertunity over the coming decades as people retire from bangkok, the south, china and SE Asia region. It's the new demographic wave and means in my opinion chiang Mai is at the early phase of market rather than the much talked about bubble. Not to say there might not be a pull back here and there but talking longer term trend.

Second point- the proximity of other buildings- I agree; which is why I chose a unit at the front/ street side. So no building and the view of the mountain is up the road from the balcony so can not be obstructed by building.

[mccw]

Also ; I just say that the general invest principles apply- thinking what is your purpose?

A solid easy to manage rental return? -My unit I am hoping somewhere between 4 and 6% net.

Capital gains?

- this unit I just aim for a solid rental and gains be a bonus; but after 5-6 years I would expect a modest gain.

Quick flip?

Need to consider the tax in to equation. Probably not for me unless had an amazing offer I couldn't refuse; doubtful.

Living?

Not for me- but it's a place I would be happy to live if my wife kicked me out for example, haha, so has value as a back up pad ;-)

The real capital gains to be made in Chiang Mai are in land if you can find the keen prices and have an eye and a nose for the market. Must trust your wife though obviously- which I do, and we have a couple projects on the go at the moment actually. Like with the condos- I prefer to buy what has a smaller supply, like land with decent location AND nice views or condo with views and good facility and location etc. even if it costs a bit more it means you have something that is in short supply; supply and demand and all that- like I said, I think increasing demand over the mid to long term is coming.

Chock dee

[iancnx]

Build quality is a major issue. I was lucky enough to be on-site on a weekly basis when I bought mine. Not perfect, but the building is one of the best in CM. Just as crucial is the management of the building. You will find new buildings are poorly managed up until the developer lets go of the reigns, and the developer will only let go if:

A. He has sold all of his units

Or

B. The co-owners properly evict the JPM from office and installs their own management committee and JP under Thai Law and the Condominium Act.

The latter is easier said than done. Failure to act early could put long term prosperity of the condo at risk, and may well be detrimental to the sinking fund. RESEARCH the accounts before you buy. RESEARCH the developers past track record.

OP i have sent you personal message.

[ARISTIDE]

Forgive me but Furama and Floral are hardly Luxury! More like a grade C. try the Nimmana, the Unique for a better ones.

Furama, Floral

[skldd]

Try Sansiri one

Many projects from this top developer in Thailand

D condo projects

[evenstevens]

Hi evenstevens

Just happened to be reading reutures app and thought this relevant.

""

Prime real estate in Dubai costs between $6,200 and $7,500 per square meter ($580-700 per square foot), against $27,600-33,700 in Singapore, according to Knight Frank.

""

Now I know chiang Mai is no hongkong. But compared to prime bkk or Puket it's still a third to half price.

So looking both globally and locally I reason that 80kbht for top location and quality is a reasonable price and towards the better value side. Over the next 5 to 10 years and out I think the land prices in Chiangmai will keep going up as the population increases.

Personally I see Chiangmai as a great growth oppertunity over the coming decades as people retire from bangkok, the south, china and SE Asia region. It's the new demographic wave and means in my opinion chiang Mai is at the early phase of market rather than the much talked about bubble. Not to say there might not be a pull back here and there but talking longer term trend.

Second point- the proximity of other buildings- I agree; which is why I chose a unit at the front/ street side. So no building and the view of the mountain is up the road from the balcony so can not be obstructed by building.

many thanks for your above comments,they are happily taken on board

the real achilles heel , of your investment, is access to and from your condo, which i brought up in my previous post (j.m.o)

your condo project is 350 units,which will certainly bring more traffic to a already horrendous situation on niminhedin road in particular soi 6

there is no doubt further projects will be built in soi 6 , and nearby ,thus adding to already impossibe situation

its absoulately traffic bedlam now in peak hrs on niminhedin ,gridlocked at times

another question mark ,is how many car parking spaces is the condo providing to the owners ??

as i said previously i sincerely wish u the best of luck,

a very nice afternoon to all

[mccw]

Hello again.

Answer a couple questions from above posters.

- Nimana has 3 units facing the street. These are not put up for sale- at least not yet. If rented to a good biz it could be an asset. If rented to an eye sore it would be a shame. They appear to be double height- like commercial with a residential room / small flat on the upper back side. I enquired as to prices but they did not decide to sell or not yet. They would make nice office or cafe / restaurant. Probably too high price for some grundy mom n pop outfit - they bandied about numbers around 8-10million bht but no firm decision yet.

- parking inside is for residents only- manned and sticker system to get in. Cars at 30% of building catered for. The bigger units having 1 allocated car space. The parking is across the entire 4 rai plot/ construction underground according to the model/ plans.

- the commercial customers would park on the street out front like they do at warwee. A good point for the value of that commercial space- quite a few spaces available unlike most tiny sois. Also all that space on the as yet undeveloped areas just next door.

[isaac3]

Hello again.

Answer a couple questions from above posters.

- Nimana has 3 units facing the street. These are not put up for sale- at least not yet. If rented to a good biz it could be an asset. If rented to an eye sore it would be a shame. They appear to be double height- like commercial with a residential room / small flat on the upper back side. I enquired as to prices but they did not decide to sell or not yet. They would make nice office or cafe / restaurant. Probably too high price for some grundy mom n pop outfit - they bandied about numbers around 8-10million bht but no firm decision yet.

- parking inside is for residents only- manned and sticker system to get in. Cars at 30% of building catered for. The bigger units having 1 allocated car space. The parking is across the entire 4 rai plot/ construction underground according to the model/ plans.

- the commercial customers would park on the street out front like they do at warwee. A good point for the value of that commercial space- quite a few spaces available unlike most tiny sois. Also all that space on the as yet undeveloped areas just next door.

MCCW i totally agree with you Nimmana has many units that are not put up for sale unless you know the right people. The property at Nimmana is considered prime estate as when talking property its all about location location location! Also as for the furnishings Nimmana has one of the better furnishings and attention to detail such as usage of led lightings instead of the usual lightbulbs. Definitely a property worth considering, as I own one myself hahaha. I might be the privileged few as I am a property consultant myself and managed to get a nice unit. Anyone whose interested can PM me i'll pass you the contact.

[mccw]

On access/ parking. Compare to most of London or any city centre UK or a lot of Europe; there is no free parking and hardly any / not enough residents permit public parking on the street- one has to drive around and walk for ages if i do find a space. It's a nightmare. But because of every facility on doorstep people still choose to live in these locations and the property is highly priced and in demand, while residents mostly walk and take public transport, or a bike. People who want to drive car around everyday are a different target market and would probably live outside town a bit. This Nim area target is for the local doorstep.

Other areas; like riverside and out of town the traffic is more an issue because one has to go drive to everything else; where as on Nim one is already in the heart of the city with all facilities with in a brisk walking distance.

[evenstevens]

Hello again.

Answer a couple questions from above posters.

- Nimana has 3 units facing the street. These are not put up for sale- at least not yet. If rented to a good biz it could be an asset. If rented to an eye sore it would be a shame. They appear to be double height- like commercial with a residential room / small flat on the upper back side. I enquired as to prices but they did not decide to sell or not yet. They would make nice office or cafe / restaurant. Probably too high price for some grundy mom n pop outfit - they bandied about numbers around 8-10million bht but no firm decision yet.

- parking inside is for residents only- manned and sticker system to get in. Cars at 30% of building catered for. The bigger units having 1 allocated car space. The parking is across the entire 4 rai plot/ construction underground according to the model/ plans.

- the commercial customers would park on the street out front like they do at warwee. A good point for the value of that commercial space- quite a few spaces available unlike most tiny sois. Also all that space on the as yet undeveloped areas just next door.

MCCW i totally agree with you Nimmana has many units that are not put up for sale unless you know the right people. The property at Nimmana is considered prime estate as when talking property its all about location location location! Also as for the furnishings Nimmana has one of the better furnishings and attention to detail such as usage of led lightings instead of the usual lightbulbs. Definitely a property worth considering, as I own one myself hahaha. I might be the privileged few as I am a property consultant myself and managed to get a nice unit. Anyone whose interested can PM me i'll pass you the contact.

^^^^^^^^^^smell the onions some sales pitch

i will throw in this bit

they have a june only promo

4 electrical appliances, and furnished by modern furniture

just cough up the 50k booking fee

thats how the sales are going come in spinner

[mccw]

^ That "promo" has been the same through-out I think. The same deal as I was offered over a month ago. Standard.

(However I did negotiate a bit more cash discount by giving up some appliances. After a bit of debate I also customized the unit to change from 3 bed to a more spacious 2. In doing so giving back approximately half the discount.)

But; You smell onions Even? because a seller has a package and will negotiate on sales; to promote sales? Strange. Since- er property sales is the business they are in. Every purchase I have ever made there has been a good amount of negotiation involved. When I sell I expect to deal with offers and when I buy, likewise I make offers. You know of course that the sales agent/ office has a commission of a few percent which can be leeway from themselves wanting to close the deal and on top of this the developer can be consulted on layout or appliances, materials and such.

Most developments should be turning roughly a 30 to 20% profit at least; so appliances/ furniture package to promote sales is really just a small % out of that profit margin. It does not indicate desperation at all. It's just a deal sweetener.

As an example- My business partner is currently negotiating for the sale of a condo unit in "one millennium" in Miami; google it if you like; I can tell you there is a good amount of negotiating going on there, and as standard - interior, furniture, appliances etc are included- it is part of the overall design package, so everything matches and looks good together; it's a luxury full package- that's what your buying; but you think they must be desperate too? A 4 million dollar unit that one under offer, one of the smaller ones.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[evenstevens]

MCCW i totally agree with you Nimmana has many units that are not put up for sale unless you know the right people. The property at Nimmana is considered prime estate as when talking property its all about location location location! Also as for the furnishings Nimmana has one of the better furnishings and attention to detail such as usage of led lightings instead of the usual lightbulbs. Definitely a property worth considering, as I own one myself hahaha. I might be the privileged few as I am a property consultant myself and managed to get a nice unit. Anyone whose interested can PM me i'll pass you the contact.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^smell the onions some sales pitch

mccw...my last post was not in any way reflecting your investment interests, the prom bit was just a add on what they are offering to secure sales as they are hard to come by all round i might add not just your condo project , and the onions bit is to the member which i just again directed it to, not you

[isaac3]

If its directed at me you can contact me directly, as i've alr mentioned i do have contacts in nimmana but i've no intentions of doing any sales pitch here..

if you would like to verify if i reali do own a condo you can pm me to meet up directly n i'll show you all the documentations.. but i'll also demand a public apology from u..

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[evenstevens]

Casa Till condo ooks like they actually know what quality is….they even landscaped around the temporary building fence! Think they just started on the piles, not yet built.

casa til , appears dead in its tracks , as i went by there y/day,they had this project up on offer for well over a year or more

no names condo (directly opposite casa til) is powering along and is taking out t/hill condo,s magnicent views,at point blank range, and i heard against a court order

and t/hill 2 is still in death mode stopped constuction at 4 th floor 9 months ago

scary business buying into the c/mai condo scene (, me thinks),in particular at this moment of time

whether its nimmahedin ,conv centre,meehok plaza areas,or any where in c/mai for that matter

perhaps a better phrase to use is, all smoke and mirriors

Edited June 22, 2014 by evenstevens