Alternative Breast Cancer Treatment

[mbkudu]

I just received an email from my brother from the States today that our mother has just been diagnosed with breast cancer. She, like many Americans, does not have health insurance because it is not affordable. She will travel here to have the treatment. If anyone has a recommendation for a hospital in Bangkok or in Thailand that uses alternative types of treatment other than chemotherapy or radiation for breast cancer, I would appreciate any help. Any recommendations for a hospital that uses regular breast cancer treatment would also be of help. It is a sad time for us. Thanks for any help.

Regards,

Mbk

[Sheryl]

Sorry to hear this news. Your mother would be in excellent hands in Samitivejj Hospital which provides state of the art cancer treatment. She will probably be recommended for a combination of surgery and chemo and/or radiation. I have a good friend who had successful treatment for cancer of the prostate there and was very happy with the hospital and doctors. I'll email him and get the name of his oncologist for you and post it shortly. Besides an oncologist she'll need a surgeon with expertise in breast cancer. For that, check out Samitivej's website and look for a doc who is board certified in the US or other western country and specializes in breast surgery.

Be sure she brings with her the biopsy result and any other test results, may save unnecessary repetition & cost.

Regarding alternative treatments I would recommend you not think of that at this stage, get her to competent docs who can recommend a treatment plan and also give her and you some concrete idea of survival rates for cancer of her type and stage with these treatments. Assuming she has a reasonably good prognosis then you should not look for alternative treatments as a substitute for modern care, none of them can match its curative potential. But you can avail of it for symptomatice relief in conjunction with modern treatment. Samitivej also has a doctor skilled in accupuncture, which can be helpful for side effects of chemo.

If she has a poor prognosis even with aggressive treatment then that's another story. I don't know of any places in Thailand that are really good at it but there are some places in India where people with incurable cancer go for ayurvedic treatments. These DO NOT cure, but some people believe they prolong life. But let's hope your mom doesn't fall into this category at all.

IIf you can tell me what type of tumor it is and what the biopsy showed with respect to lymph node involvement I can give you more information. There are differences in prognosis according to tumor type. The other key question is whether or not there has been metastasis (spread) to any other part of the body but determiin g that requires CAT scans, MRIs and the like which can be done much more cheaply in Thailand. That would be done first before the docs make their recommendation regarding treatment approach, it is called staging the cancer. For a specific stage and type of tumor, the average survival rate for various treatment approaches are known. Your mom can then use this info to help her decide what she wants to do.

By the way, thanks to new drugs that control side effects like nausea very well and new drugs that help stimulate the bone marrow to produce new red & white cells, chemo & radiation therapy are not as bad to go through as they used to be. I have another friend with Ca of breast who just went through the full course of chemo & radiation without needing to miss a day's work-- or even losing weight. Of course it does vary by individual, but it is not the horror it used to be.

[mbkudu]

Sheryl, thank you very much for your detailed reply. I just talked to my mom this moring and she will go in for the biopsy in the next couple of days. The initial examination by her doctor indicates that it is in a beginning stage. Cost is also a consideration for her (the reason she is strongly considering Thailand, and I am living here to help her). I was told that Bangkok International Hospital has very up to date eqipment and techniques in cancer treatment and might also be cheaper than Semitivejj. The more I am looking into it, it seems that alternative treatment is not the way to go. I'm not sure where she got this idea from. Thanks again.

[Sheryl]

Sheryl, thank you very much for your detailed reply. I just talked to my mom this moring and she will go in for the biopsy in the next couple of days. The initial examination by her doctor indicates that it is in a beginning stage. Cost is also a consideration for her (the reason she is strongly considering Thailand, and I am living here to help her). I was told that Bangkok International Hospital has very up to date eqipment and techniques in cancer treatment and might also be cheaper than Samitivej. The more I am looking into it, it seems that alternative treatment is not the way to go. I'm not sure where she got this idea from. Thanks again.

Glad to help. I think the costs at Bangkok Int and Samitivej are virtually identical. Bkk Int is a perfectly fine hospital but personally I feel Samitivej is a bit better and also I have experience sending people there for cancer tx. But up to you & her. Just be sure to get docs with board certification from abroad. If you like I can probably arrange for you to be in email contact drectly with the friend I know who was treated for prostate cancer at Samitivej as he was very happy with his oncologist and also the radiation specialist.

Most of what is needed can be done as an outpatient, especially if you live in Bangkok. So costs will not be too high. Even the surgery, if one of the less extensive procedures is used, may not need more than a couple of days in hospital. There will be choices to be made with respect to surgical approaches, be sure to ask hard questions about documented survival rates or if you like feel free to PM me with the details & I can provide some info. The more extensive procedures, in addition to being more disfiguring and involving longer recuperation, cost more. So I would recommend going for the least extensive surgeical approach that does not significantly decrease survival rates. But if course it's your mom who must decide.

If it is in early stages then do everything you can to talk her out of alternative anything as there is much to lose. Nowadays more people survive breast cancer tha succomb to it. She can have all the accupuncture and massage she wants on the side but proper modern medical care is a life-saver.

Again, feel free to contact me anytime if can be of further help.

[mbkudu]

Thank you. I will probably ask more questions later when I know more from my mom and the extent of her condition. I know this is a hard question to answer, and I tried to get a figure from the doctor at Bumrungrad, but he would not not give a figure; roughly how much is it going to cost her here in Thailand if it was a situation where she needed surgery, chemo-radiation and the related hospital costs? If you can't answer, I understand. The doctor I talked to said there are too many variables, but that it would be substantially cheaper than the States. I'd just like to know and be able to tell her what she can expect to pay here verses there. She is well aware of the costs there.

[Mark L.]

-not in Thailand but.. (in US)

There are a few people I would contact if I was in a situation looking for where to turn. Dr. Oliver I have personally had some interaction with an I know he works with cancer patients. I also know he has loads of contacts.

This is really alternate stuff. And I know one thing, these guys know what they are doing and get results.

If you're interested in details feel free to email me [email protected]

If not all the best and keep a positive attitude and lots of love cause the mental/emotional aspects of healing are HUGE!!! IMO

Also I hear, but have had no direct contact, that Dr Getoff is very good and I know he works with cancer patients as well.

http://www.naturopath4you.com/ca.htm

Not sure if Dr Oliver has a site but I can get contact info. A very remarcable man. He will also be able to suggest what route is good to look down if nothing else.

This is healing and living and life not drugs and death and disease.

All the best

[mbkudu]

Thanks for that Mark. My mom would like to have treatment in the US, but it is out the question cost

wise. There is a lot of good information on that website though, thanks.

[Mark L.]

In that case here is an article that give a little insight to some factors.

You gotta think for the body to work its best it all needs to work its best. You look at the toxic load and the detox system. I mean deoderants for example (whats in them ain't good for your body usually and look where arm pits are)

Sleep is huge for rest and repair (some people will do best in the time zone they were born in).

But 10-2 is generally (seasons etc come into play) physical recovery and 2-6 is psyc (mental/emotional etc) recovery. So sleep is huge-quality of sleep is huge and when too.

In 1910 the average adults slept 9-10 hrs a night (about 4,370hrs)

Currently average adults sleeps 7 if lucky!! (about 2,555hrs-8years ago it was 3,395)

These might be a year or two old..

But you get the point.. Sleep is HUGE and timing an quality.

do some looking on www.mercola.com if you so choose. Its the worlds #1 travelled natural health website and its good.

Dr Mercola was western trained but is all about the alternative and natural methods (I think he's had only 2 patients out of tons that he had to keep on cholesterol lowering drugs)

Type in cancer, breast cancer, any possible angles you can think of and there will likely be a lot of articles to choose from.

Chinese medicine and QiGong healers (the study of it all in India-they call it Prana and Chakras) I think this end is very big. It deals largely with the mental and emotional factors and how they manifest in the body and can effect healing etc Believe it or not there is western scientific evidence now that can actually look at things like 'Chi'

There is a woman in Malaysia that may have some suggestions

Feel free to e-mail me if you want. If any of this sounds like the direction you're looking.

I believe and understand the body to work as a whole and as a system and that ALL of its physical parts and all the others, mental/emotional/spiritual etc really all work together when it comes to health.

If not, no worries

All the best and think positive (there are many examples of how much the mond can do!)

[Mark L.]

One more thing. If you decide to go with any western aproach and treatments I strongly suggest you read "The Body Clock Guide For Better Health" -Michael Smolensky Ph D and Lynne Lamberg

It looks at circadian rythems etc and shows how meds etc in the am (for example) may work better than pm for some things/ I mean think about it. Your hormones vary throughout the day. Cortisol is up in the morning and lowers in the evening and melatonin goes up (for one example).

The effects of the drugs will be different depending on the time of day.

Also most drugs are NOT tested on women as thier hormone cycles make it much more difficult. Yet of course they dish them out easily enough.

Point being the amounts needed or best times to take meds is often varried. This is not common knowlage in the med community though it is not alternative (hippy) research.

It does talk specifically about cancer treatments etc

Now I am not a fan of the western aproach...but IF you went that way its something to look at in my opinion!

Onset of menstration for example is most common between 6am and noon-14% of docs asked knew this. (more than that must have been women too!)

"Research findings suggest that WHEN people with cancer recieve drug treatment...is at least as critical a determinant of how well they do as the dose or type of treatment they recieve."

-The Body Clock Guide To Better Health"

Again I would not go that route

Think positive the brain is more powerful than we know I think!!

[Mark L.]

One more I'll shut up after

go to mercola.com and type in things like laughter. There are studies that prove its benifits for health and buildinhg the immune system etc

(Ray Boom Boom Mancinee, great boxer, had laughter as a part of his training schedual)

Laughter, human contact, love.. etc etc

k unless you mention somehting or e-mail I'll try to be quiet

[Mark L.]

forgot this guy... Ray Peat raypeat.com

I haven't read the article properly but he comes highly recommended in general and I have read some of his other articles.

He works for no one (is idependant)!! He sells no products.

He's a researcher

The Ecologist figures 75 out of 15000 reaearchers (drug and food) that they looked at were independant.

Anyway heres an article on Breast Cancer

http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/breastcancer.shtml

...:/

[mbkudu]

Interesting that you mention things like stress, laughter, ect. My mother has always had a very healthy diet, no cigarettes and very moderate alcohol consumption, some coffee, plenty of outdoor work like gardening, never used hair dye or lots of makeup. However, she gets angry easily, has had years of financial stress and some recent employment problems. Another factor is that she has lived in Marin County California all her adult life. This may seem insignifcant to some, but this area of in the US has the highest rate of women contracting breast cancer in the world per capita. Researchers have not been able to figure out why. The air and environment is clean, there are strict emmission standards on cars, the food is healthy and overall a very desirable place to live. Most of the cases are middle-class to wealthy white women. There are various theories to the cuase: wealthier women have health insurance and therefore can have testing so therefore the numbers increase, the mamograms themselves trigger the cancer that would otherwise remain dormant, high voltage power lines in residential areas, a Native American curse from the people who once lived on the land, contaminated water sources, ect. But none of these have been proven so the debate goes on. My mother has always been very healthy so it is a big shock for me.

[Prakanong2005]

First of all OP - I wish your mother the best.

The Big fuss in the UK now is about the availability of Herceptin from Roche in early stage Breast Cancer rather than just late stage.

It was only initially available for late stage but after a campaign it os now going to be available country wide.

The results on some types of breast cancer are very good.

I will add the proviso though that i can not see it being that much cheaper in Thailand - i only say this as a friend who sadly died of colon cancer was having treatment at Bumrungrad with a drug not available on the NHS in the UK.

Here is a link

http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=12797

[Prakanong2005]

Sorry Mark but this is absolute pish and you do not know what you are talking about

"Also most drugs are NOT tested on women as thier hormone cycles make it much more difficult. Yet of course they dish them out easily enough."

I work in clinical trials and have done so in pharma and vaccines and I can assure you most drugs ARE tested on women.

Yes there are certain exclusion criteria and the woman is pregnancy tested on each visit and prior to study start and will not initiate the trial or continue if pregnant

But

Healthy non-pregnant women who meet all the inclusion criteria are well represented in clinical trials where the drug is aimed at both sexes - it would not get licensed if not - think about it sensibly please!!!!!!

[Mark L.]

mbkudu

Electromagnetic pollution does much more than studies have been allowed to show. I don't know all the factors but high voltage wires etc do have negative effects on the body that science actually does know about (but there are reasons its not given to public). "The Body Electric" I believe gets into this. Dr Robert Becker (I have not read this one but have another of his). Basically just minimize exposure to EMFs etc

There are different degrees and thoughts on health.

Stress is HUGE.. As is things that relieve stress like laughing and smiling and breathing exercises, relaxation exercises etc Mental/emotional/spiritual are number one. You can not look at the adrenals alone. You can't look at the physical alone. You can not look at Vit A alone. The whole and the system must work together. IMO

Prakanong-I probably should have said that untill resently many of the drug trials etc were tested mostly on men and this is the concisouness of the system.

One thing that is still done (correct me if I'm wrong:) is not pay attention to times of day for testing.

Example being tests on mice and rats. They are nocturnal!!! About 95% of modern drug development studies are done on them. And of course given to humans in the day.

even some sleeping pills are tested in the day!! crazy...

[Sheryl]

Mbkudu,

The oncologist at Samitivej highly recommended by my friend is Dr. Sakpisid Nawasiri. Oncology and radiation are at their Srinakarin branch, but there is free shuttle transport back & forth between there & the Sukhumvut branch.

In terms of cost -- doctor consultations will run about $15-$20 per visit depending upon the doctor. MRIs, CAT scans if I remember correctly are about $250, she'll probably need several. Most blood work is relatively cheap, unless it is something very unusual you can figure on getting a thorough set of tests for about $100.

In short she can probably get the complete work-up to stage the cancer, pre-op tests and explanation of treatment options for about $800 to $1000. Now for surgery, it will depend entirely on the type of procedure and length of hospital stay. If you live in Bangkok and can look after her at home then the latter can be shorter and you should push for as early a discharge as possible with out-patient follow up for dressing chnages & the like. In that case and assuming it is not a very extensive procedure you could be looking at as little as a 2-3 day stay. Figure about $500 for the stay plus the cost of the surgery itself, for that I have no idea but what you can do is email the international relations dept <[email protected]> and ask specifically for an estimate of the cost for (1) excision of breast tumor and partial lymph node dissection; (2) simple mastetcomy. The first will be cheaper than the second and between those you'll have a range for the surgical costs. You can also ask for an estimate of cost for a course of post-operative chemotheapy for breast cancer done on an outpatient basis. It will be variable as it depends much on the drugs used.

Then add all of it together and you'll have a ballpark figure, but of course things may change once she's had the full work up, gotten the doctor's recommendations and made a choice about treatment.

Remember that doing all that still leaves her options open as to whether and where to get treatment. The cost savings in that phase alone are enough to more than pay for the airfare to Thailand, and if she then wants she can take all the test results, films, etc back to the States with her.

Regarding Mark L's posts -- much of that advice is fine and would be good for anyone, sick or not. However I think some perspective needs to be maintained. None of these things, nor any other "alternative"approach have ever been proven to cure cancer. None. Without proper modern medical care, she will die of what may well be a curable tumor.

Unless it is a situation where there is no reasonable expectation of cure through modern medical care, I prefer to regard these sorts of things as "complementary"rather than "alternative" treatments. By the way, may oncologists do use circadian approaches with chemotherapy. I worked for one in the US who did -- it's easy to do as the new infusion pumps ca be programmed to release specific amounts at specific times of the day or night.

She'll have options every step fo the way in modern treatment. Options as to type of surgical procedure (surgery of some kind is a must unless the tumor is so widely spread that the prognosis is hopeless). Although she will probably be recommended to have some chemo and/or radiation as well as surgery, she can decline this if she wants; some people do. She can get from the oncologist clear information on the extent to which the chemo/radiation is likely to improve her overall survival and then decide whether it's worth it or not. It is not as if going to a doctor automatically comits her to a fixed menu of treatments. The oncologist I mentioned trained in the west and is accustomed to western patients wanting to make informed decisions and be full partners in their care.

[sbk]

Regarding Mark L's posts -- much of that advice is fine and would be good for anyone, sick or not. However I think some perspective needs to be maintained. None of these things, nor any other "alternative"approach have ever been proven to cure cancer. None. Without proper modern medical care, she will die of what may well be a curable tumor.

Thank you Sheryl, this needs to be reiterated. My mother has been diagnosed with breast cancer 3 times in the past 20 years. She has not only survived but done quite well. Her sister-in-law went for alternative therapies and died within a year.

[Thai-Aust]

First of all I wish your mother the best.

My mum had been diagnosed with cancer nearly three years ago. Unfortunately the cancer had been metastasised to the last stage. While waiting for chemotherapy (she needed 3 weeks rest before the therapy) we decided to go for an alternative treatment. After one week of drinking the watery soup (made of flowers, herbs, etc..) she could stroll around and had been out of the house for the first time in months. Since she was getting much better we decided to keep on the treatment until she was called from the hospital to start a chemo. I must say that this alternative treatment somehow amazingly works, although cannot cure but if it can alleviate a pain I think that is worth it.

Anyway, if the OP wants to browse for a cheaper hospital but also has a reputation, why not try hospitals where Thais from all walks of life go for treatments. There are plenty of them around and a lot cheaper than those focuses on foreign patients. You can choose to be a private patient in a well-known public hospital such as Siriraj Hospital. They have private clinics after five o’clock for those who require convenient and private treatment from top doctors by paying a few hundreds baht more.

[mbkudu]

Thanks everybody; this is all very helpful. I am doing more research on the hospitals that cater more to Thais to see how much of a difference in cost there is. A doctor at Bangkok International Hospital gave me a quote but insisted that it is quite variable depending on the stage of her condition and what is necessary to perform. After adding up all the figures for the procedures and fees he quoted, it would be around a minimum of $US 15,000-20,000 and a maximum of $US 30,000. The maximum figure is with work up, surgery, chemo, radiation, hospital stay (5-7 days) and doctor's fees. This is still much lower than what it would cost in the US, even when a plane ticket is factored in. I also have a condo she can stay in afterwards, so her accomodation after being in the hospital would be free.

I'm still looking at the alternative treatments because she is asking me to, but it seems that here the western conventional techniques seem to be more popular and marketed much more intensely.

She asked me to try places here that offers the following: EDTA Chelation, live cell therapy, bioelectric repolarisation, autologous dentritic cell vaccines. It's too much for me to handle right now, but I'm trying my best. My brother is over there also trying to help her sift through all this stuff.

[Sheryl]

Thanks everybody; this is all very helpful. I am doing more research on the hospitals that cater more to Thais to see how much of a difference in cost there is. A doctor at Bangkok International Hospital gave me a quote but insisted that it is quite variable depending on the stage of her condition and what is necessary to perform. After adding up all the figures for the procedures and fees he quoted, it would be around a minimum of $US 15,000-20,000 and a maximum of $US 30,000. The maximum figure is with work up, surgery, chemo, radiation, hospital stay (5-7 days) and doctor's fees. This is still much lower than what it would cost in the US, even when a plane ticket is factored in. I also have a condo she can stay in afterwards, so her accomodation after being in the hospital would be free.

I'm still looking at the alternative treatments because she is asking me to, but it seems that here the western conventional techniques seem to be more popular and marketed much more intensely.

She asked me to try places here that offers the following: EDTA Chelation, live cell therapy, bioelectric repolarisation, autologous dentritic cell vaccines. It's too much for me to handle right now, but I'm trying my best. My brother is over there also trying to help her sift through all this stuff.

You ought to be able to get the hospital stay down to 2-3 days assuming one of the less extensive procedures. This would save quite a bit. Shorter hospital stays are the norm now in the US but in Thailand they still tend to go for longer stays but you can push on that, make clear there are cost considerations and that she has a place to stay in Bkk and can come in daily for whatever follow up care is needed. Insist on doing as much as an outpatient as possible and I think it'll end up closer to the $20,000 figure.

They things your mom have mentioned are a mixture of quack treatments that don't have any proven benefit (and most definitely cannot cure cancer) and some new modern approaches which are still in very early experimental stages. None of these are available in Thailand and for that matter, none are available from any reputable place in the US. Do you have insight into what it is she is trying to avoid? Is it the fear of losing a breast? Nowadays it is most often a conservative procedure that removes only the tumor and surrounding tissue, not the whole breast, and cosmetic surgery (often using actual body fat, not silicone) can restore the normal breast contour.

[Mark L.]

Which ever path she chooses will be the right one for her journey so don't stress about it all too much Keep positive and best wishes

[mbkudu]

Thanks everybody; this is all very helpful. I am doing more research on the hospitals that cater more to Thais to see how much of a difference in cost there is. A doctor at Bangkok International Hospital gave me a quote but insisted that it is quite variable depending on the stage of her condition and what is necessary to perform. After adding up all the figures for the procedures and fees he quoted, it would be around a minimum of $US 15,000-20,000 and a maximum of $US 30,000. The maximum figure is with work up, surgery, chemo, radiation, hospital stay (5-7 days) and doctor's fees. This is still much lower than what it would cost in the US, even when a plane ticket is factored in. I also have a condo she can stay in afterwards, so her accomodation after being in the hospital would be free.

I'm still looking at the alternative treatments because she is asking me to, but it seems that here the western conventional techniques seem to be more popular and marketed much more intensely.

She asked me to try places here that offers the following: EDTA Chelation, live cell therapy, bioelectric repolarisation, autologous dentritic cell vaccines. It's too much for me to handle right now, but I'm trying my best. My brother is over there also trying to help her sift through all this stuff.

You ought to be able to get the hospital stay down to 2-3 days assuming one of the less extensive procedures. This would save quite a bit. Shorter hospital stays are the norm now in the US but in Thailand they still tend to go for longer stays but you can push on that, make clear there are cost considerations and that she has a place to stay in Bkk and can come in daily for whatever follow up care is needed. Insist on doing as much as an outpatient as possible and I think it'll end up closer to the $20,000 figure.

They things your mom have mentioned are a mixture of quack treatments that don't have any proven benefit (and most definitely cannot cure cancer) and some new modern approaches which are still in very early experimental stages. None of these are available in Thailand and for that matter, none are available from any reputable place in the US. Do you have insight into what it is she is trying to avoid? Is it the fear of losing a breast? Nowadays it is most often a conservative procedure that removes only the tumor and surrounding tissue, not the whole breast, and cosmetic surgery (often using actual body fat, not silicone) can restore the normal breast contour.

I don't know for sure, but I think she is ok with the surgery part, but she wants to avoid the chemo and radiation parts as much as possible.

[leisurely]

Consider Chulalongkorn hospital. It is apparantly the centre of excellence for breast care in Thailand. Good luck to your mum. If it were mine I would do my best to disaude her from the alternative route. Sheryl and Prakanong talk a lot of sense but that is just my opinion.

[Mark L.]

I think its interesting how every clumps many different methods together as 'alternate'. It may be a correct statement but it is varied and wide in approaches and methods. Of course its not what is in controle and has almost money backing (any running) it.

Its interesting where cancer research money goes if you look closely. HUGE money going on. Treatments bring in more money cures would not.

The whole health care systems would fall apart if people go theathy and the health care systems (in most places) make money when people are sick...

Use to be (is it still?) in China that docs got paid per person when they were NOT sick. When they got sick they LOST the MONEY.

Sounds like a system I'd be more ready to pay into.

I'm not trying to convince you but going with the norm (look around at the norm..pretty sub par health wise don't you think? If you think that IS normal.....

All I'm saying is its not one way or another...there are loads of options. Some are more in controle and funded by the people who make money of the treatments.

There is a whole different concisouness...

Have a look into the famous Louis Pastuer... but also the unknown BeChamp. There is quite a bit of evidence that Pasteur stole from BeChamp and only showed in part what BeChamp found and not in all detail.

Pastuer was a great self promoter. He came up with the 'germ theory'. But many, and certainly BeChamp believed that the 'terrain' was more important.

BeChamp found what he called microzymas (if memory serves). Basically he found that these were a normal part of the body and when the 'terrain' (body) got weak and sick they changed into other things...like germs and even viruses... The cool thing was he also found that when you returned the body to homeostasis that they changed back to a normal part of the body.

When you look at nature (how big an ego do we have to think we can outsmart God or Mother Nature or what ever the creative force is).. When you look at nature, say plants, you see that when they are grown weak and sickly they emit low frequency vibrations that call to pests to come and get rid of them...to return to the earth and try to build something decent and life worthy..

Healthy plants (organic etc) don't get pests because they are healthy and don't attract them with the low vibration.. Even stdies when the plants have been covered in the pests..

Funny thing is humans are the same...as our health wains so does our vibration lower.. it attracts fungus, yeasts, parasites...and germs and viruses to come and clean up...they are natures clean up crew..

Some of you will think this is wacked Thats ok. Some will be wow, lets check this out (prob not many) and some will know about it. But it is all science.

Western med studies are largely funded by the poeple who make money on the products that they sell to 'treat' you.

They attack these 'invaders', cut them out, poison them, use radiation etc etc... but if BeChamp was right then we are attacking the bodys natural function.

Also what often happens is the cause (poor health) is not addressed and though one may be successful at that time, disease, disfunction, decay etc will how up somewhere else..

The etiology (cause) is never addressed.

In fact when experts in the fields of studying viruses and cancer come out and say there are no links after years and years of research...they are kicked out, excommunicated, black listed.. Can't risk the status quo.

So if you believe what we're fed. Then all the best, seriously

If a part of you questions everything you are taught from the authorities then there are some things to maybe look into. And all the best again.

And if you go another route you got it.

But no matter what the case, even western science knows the power of the mind to some degree. Love and laugh and smile.. it goes a long long way.

Peace

(just for fun there are reports of Pasteurs rabies vaccine doing more damage than the bite and many vets, there is a group in US say there is no such thing as rabies lol but it all depends on what you believe-I'm talking bitten and no shot-fine. Not bitten and shot-problems)

I think it was in Belgium that when the docs went on strike, mortality rates dropped... US doc caused death is about 250,000 a year-refferance JAMA-low figures)

[sbk]

Interesting reply mark but my mother was vegan for 15 years, ate only organic fruit and veg and lived quite healthily. She is very aware of what she puts into her body and very aware of what is healthy and what is not. She is genetically predisposed to cancer and she would never forgo chemo for an alternative form of treatment.

So, Mark, it is facile to suggest that cancers are caused by the food we eat or the lifestyle we lead. There are many contributing factors of which diet and lifestyle are just two.

[Mark L.]

I would bet most people with cancer had prior to it fungus issues, yeast issues, even dandruf is an indicator things aren't right.

What did she do for work?

cronic infections is lower on the list too (lower mean lower vitality)

On a scale of about 0-10. 10 being perfect health and 0 being dead... under 7 you are suseptable to natures garbage collectors and its a sign if you don't change something something more serious will follow.

Most disease processes take 15-20 years to develop.. Ceratinly don't think western med will fix that. They may nuke a symptom.. But something else almost always pops up.

But most will tink this is crazy talk... thats cool too.

Believe in which ever path you choose

plasebo operations were 65% successful!!!! (and meds) But ops!!! thats crazy..

Some of these studies come from one of the only places they ever could (not saying it should have happened but if we can learn form it..) Nazies on Jews..

Point is the mind is strong!!!! Many things that show that. So believe what ever you do, smile, lov and laugh... Love first

[Mark L.]

deffinatly many factors and I htin mental/emotional etc to be the highest. I do believe that the foundation needs to be there regardless of anything else.

Nutrition advice is like giving religious advice (thats how strong people hold onto beliefs) but my opinion and experience is it ###### HARD to be vegan and be healthy. Veg is hard enough.

Most vegans are very low on proteins and good fats never mind some of the B vits etc..

This is argued and studies go both ways. I'm not trying to get into it now.

Its interesting that when health fails its never considered if what the health beliefs were were even correct...

www.price-pottenger.org

www.westonaprice.org

a couple sites for anyone interested in some good health info (IMO)

anyone seriously interested in a kick ass book

"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration"

-Weston A Price

interesting how cancer was almost non-existant less than 100 years ago amoung those who ate their native diets (all of which had meat to a lesser or larger degree)

Mix diet with chemical this and toxic that... plus mental/emotional directly effects the immune system (which every one of us uses to fight cancer EVERYONE) so how come it hits some and not others??

[sbk]

Cancer was undiagnosed not necessarily non existant 100 years ago.

And my mother had breast cancer for the first time before she was vegan (but still ate healthily) and had a second one after she had been vegan for about 10 years.

Genetic predisposition is a major factor for some people that cannot be discounted by simple arguments about mental health or fungus or dandruff.

[Mark L.]

No, like I said there are many factors.

Also you can't explain anything to anyone that has thier belief already decided.

Have you researched tribes on native diets in the early 1900s?

Whats interesting about researchers like Weston A Price is that he studied native populations and diets and health etc (early 1900s). He went to Australia, Europe, North and South America, Africa etc etc and what he found EVERYWHERE is that the natives on native diets DID NOT have diseases (and were much happier, more contributing to society). He also looked at those that went to work for the white man or started to abopt white mans food (modernized foods) and always the same thing showed up. (he analised the foods, studied the people-a really brilliant researcher).

He even studied twins (genetics pretty close I'd say). One who adopted modernized ways and foods and one who stuck with the native diet.. The changes will blow your mind.

Also families. say 2 or 3 kids. All healthy and normal and the changes in the next few ater parents adopt modernized foods and white mans eating methods.

Time and time again.. By changes I mean structural (narowing of the nasal passages, hips, smaller middle third of face etc etc) and also the subseptibility to disease etc

Tuberculosis was near epedemic preportions when he visited Switzerland. Yet in the isolated villiages that ate the old ways it was basically unheard of. One of thje ones he went to had never had a case. They had no doc or dentist yet thier teeth were near perfect...as are many remains dug up form way further back.

Genes can only be expressed through enviroment influences.

genotype is our unique blueprint

thoughts, food, air, water etc will determine the expression of that blueprint... one phenotype

"75% of an individual's health after age 40 is dependant upon what the person has done to his or her genes, not the genes themselves."

"...In most cases, disease results when the individual elects a lifestyle or diet that alters the expression of the genes in such a way that the weakness or uniqueness or inheritance factors result inn a phenotype we call a disease."

-Jeffery Bland, Ph.D. "Genetic Nutritioneering

"Environmental factors contribute 80-90% of cancer risk"

Hoover, RN. Cancer-Nature, Nurture, or Both. N Engl J Med 2000

It all depends on what one believes.

Our we helpless and dependant on the medical system to correct our defects and faults and weakness.

There is plenty of evidence if one wants to look that way. IMO

Way more factors to health than food and lifestyle..certainly.. but IMO there is way more to health than genetics too.

Its hard when health fails after one believes they are healthy (and I do believe one can truely be health and get sick-though I htnk this is extreamly rare).

Not many health experts seem to take into acount what was known thousands of years ago and which many cultures understood including the Chinese, Egyptions, Indians..

"One man's food is another mans poison"

-Lucretius (Roman healer/philosopher)

One size fits all diet is a huge mistake IMO no matter how good the food is in an of itself

Oranges will make some more acidic and others more alkaline as will red meat..

To think we are all the same is a huge mistake IMO

Consider that every meal has a hormonal effect in the body...what parts of the body do hormones not effect???? Do they effect the immune system?? Danm straight.

But that all said and the truth as I see it. I think everyones path is different and that part of somes journey is to get western treatment etc

So I don't see it as bad... just part of some peoples paths..

[Sheryl]

I think this discussion about what causes cancer, while interesting, is a bit off topic and certainly a moot point for the OP & mom.

Mbdkudu:

Your mom can opt to have surgery without chemo and/or radiation but it will mean either more extensive surgery or some decrease in survival rate. Exactly how much, her doctor can say. These are known statistics. For that matter, I can give you an idea if I know the type and size of tumor and whether any lymph node involvement. In terms of surgery, the equally good survival rates with simple "lumpectomies" and the like are with radiation and/or chemo added.

These choices are open to her, and some women do opt to go for more extensive surgery and no radiation/chemo or even the more conservative surgery and no radiation/chemo, although the latter group are decreasing their odds of survival somewhat (but still much better than if no surgery). What is important is that your mom make an informed decision and understands the choices and their implications. In that regard, I would recommend that she do at least the diagnostic part (staging of the cancer and consultation as to options) at one of the international hospitals even though more costly. First of all, the extra cost for this phase is not that much, the big expense is in the surgery itself. Secondly, since breast cancer treatment is an area where the technology is rapidly eveolving it is important she get state-of-the-art advice and that may not be what she gets of she goes to an average Thai hospital. Thirdly, at that point it is important that the doctor speak fluent English and be accustomed to western patients and their desire to be fully informed & take part in the decision process. For that you need someone trained in the West.

Once she has all the facts and has made her decision, you could consider having the actual surgery done at a less expensive hospital. One that I forgot to mention is Saint Louis Hospital, which is close to international standard and non-profit, and costs a lot less than Bangkok Int, Bumrungrad & Samitivej. They have a website, you might want to email them for a price quote and ask for details of the qualifications of their best breast surgeon.

Chula does have a good reputation for treating breast cancer but getting into Thai govt hospitals is a time-consuming bureaucratic process that requires a Thai speaker's help. And I suspect your mom would be all the more frightened being in a place where most of the nurses don't speak English. Also, being a teaching hospital, the actual surgery is often done by residents in training. For sure the top docs there will have private practice somewhere, if you want I can l ask around and see if I can find out where. Although it often turns out to be one of the more expensive international hospitals, occasionally one of the top givt hosp docs have private practice in a mid-range private hosp.