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Posted

hi there,

got some ph level mesure strips delivered

after reading about PH and body health, I tought of testing tap water and also the bottled water I buy to drink.

To my surprise, the tap water in Bangkok has a healthy PH of around 6-7

To my even bigger surprise, my bottled water from BIG C and Tesco Lotus brands, had a reading of about 5

Which is way to acidic, if you compare it to a healthy 7.

The big 6 liter bottles of tesco, I added 1 teaspoon of baking soda,and now I got a reading of 8.

You can find on internet that it is more healthy to drink PH 8 water to counter all the acidity of coffee / cola.

Just my 2 cents

  • Like 2
Posted

5 isn't unhealthy.....

An Orange would be 100 times more sour.

A salad with some vinegar would be 1000 times more sour.

the acid in your stomach is 10.000 times more sour.

If 5 is unhealthy you would die immediately at 1000 times more sour.

  • Like 1
Posted

Your body has a very efficient and complex system for regulating its pH within a very narrow range. Nothing you eat or drink will affect this -- the stuff on various internet sites about "alkalizing" or "acidifying" the body has absolutely no scientific validity.

The only thing that will change in pH is your stomach/intestinal contents and urine, both temporarily - the body's cells stay as they were at the same constant pH.

The main thing to be concerned about with Bangkok tapwater is possible contamination through the pipe system - bacterial or mineral. Old pipes in particular can leak rust etc.

  • Like 2
Posted

There are a wealth of studies that show sodium bicarb loading substantially increases athletic performance.

So much so the various regulating bodies are considering testing for high levels of bicarb as banned performance enhancing drugs.

http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/buffer/lrm.htm

http://www.academia.edu/1841940/Sodium_Bicarbonate-A_Potent_Ergogenic_Aid

http://www.acsm.org/about-acsm/media-room/acsm-in-the-news/2011/08/01/soda-doping-raises-ethical-issues-as-performance-enhancing-aid

I have yet to see an endurance athlete not benefit from buffering PH. It delays the onset of muscle fatigue and soreness and improves recovery time.

Posted

Bottle water will have a lower Ph as the minerals have been removed thru distillation or reverse osmosis. Although oranges are acidic when eaten they will cause your stomach to become alkaline this is caused by the alkalizing minerals found in a orange. Rain water tends to be acidic as it can be very pure with no minerals, grass and other plants will green up as they like a little bit of water on the acid side.

Posted

There are a wealth of studies that show sodium bicarb loading substantially increases athletic performance.

Being skeptical I had wondered whether any of those studies been published in a well-regarded scientific journal. (On-line journals and conference reports don't count.) I was rather surprised to find that one has, in the British Medical Journal: http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/1/41.short

However, the enhancement to athletic performance observed is nothing to do with body pH (which is tightly regulated), but presumably to do with the concentration of bicarbonate ions in the body.

Posted

There are a wealth of studies that show sodium bicarb loading substantially increases athletic performance.

Being skeptical I had wondered whether any of those studies been published in a well-regarded scientific journal. (On-line journals and conference reports don't count.) I was rather surprised to find that one has, in the British Medical Journal: http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/1/41.short

However, the enhancement to athletic performance observed is nothing to do with body pH (which is tightly regulated), but presumably to do with the concentration of bicarbonate ions in the body.

Sounds like your trying to classify the PH of the muscles as not being part of the body.

I guess that is some sort of technical argument.

It would appear to most that muscle tissues ARE a large part/% of the human body.

Posted

Bottle water will have a lower Ph as the minerals have been removed thru distillation or reverse osmosis. Although oranges are acidic when eaten they will cause your stomach to become alkaline this is caused by the alkalizing minerals found in a orange. Rain water tends to be acidic as it can be very pure with no minerals, grass and other plants will green up as they like a little bit of water on the acid side.

Orange: ph 3

Stomach ph 1-1.5

your stomach become more alkaline as ph 3 is more alkaline than ph 1. Oranges are alkaline in compare to your stomach. While they feel sour when eating, if you vomit what comes up is much more sour.....

Posted

Your body has a very efficient and complex system for regulating its pH within a very narrow range. Nothing you eat or drink will affect this -- the stuff on various internet sites about "alkalizing" or "acidifying" the body has absolutely no scientific validity.

The only thing that will change in pH is your stomach/intestinal contents and urine, both temporarily - the body's cells stay as they were at the same constant pH.

The main thing to be concerned about with Bangkok tapwater is possible contamination through the pipe system - bacterial or mineral. Old pipes in particular can leak rust etc.

Thank you for pointing this out clap2.gif

pipes in Europe sometimes have the problem with lead.

In Thailand not only bacteria....In the south once a worm came out of the public tap water sick.gif.pagespeed.ce.tVTSNn-2vr.png

Posted

Your body has a very efficient and complex system for regulating its pH within a very narrow range. Nothing you eat or drink will affect this -- the stuff on various internet sites about "alkalizing" or "acidifying" the body has absolutely no scientific validity.

The only thing that will change in pH is your stomach/intestinal contents and urine, both temporarily - the body's cells stay as they were at the same constant pH.

The main thing to be concerned about with Bangkok tapwater is possible contamination through the pipe system - bacterial or mineral. Old pipes in particular can leak rust etc.

True, thank you for pointing it out.

The Alkaline diet and pH of water myths came out of an ages old study which showed that cancer cells in a petri dish could not survive an alkaline environment.

The internet took off with all these wacky diets and water systems selling for hundreds of dollars.

What wasn't said was what you pointed out, that you really can't change your body's pH. Oh, and also, the study showed healthy cells didn't survive the alkaline environment either.

As a cancer survivor, I hate this @#$% repeated.

Posted (edited)

The best way to counter all the acidity of coffee / cola. HELLO, the best way is to Stop drinking coffee and cola. Your body doesn't need more acids like in cook food, meat, snacks. The body makes it's own acid's except amino acids. Your body needs alkalines like fresh raw veggies and fruit. And can anyone tell me what the black stuff is that builds up at the bottom of your sink, which comes from tap water, so if your brave enough to drink tap water, then your putting that black stuff in your body to, YUCK!

Edited by amse
Posted

There are a wealth of studies that show sodium bicarb loading substantially increases athletic performance.

Being skeptical I had wondered whether any of those studies been published in a well-regarded scientific journal. (On-line journals and conference reports don't count.) I was rather surprised to find that one has, in the British Medical Journal: http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/1/41.short

However, the enhancement to athletic performance observed is nothing to do with body pH (which is tightly regulated), but presumably to do with the concentration of bicarbonate ions in the body.

Sounds like your trying to classify the PH of the muscles as not being part of the body.

I guess that is some sort of technical argument.

It would appear to most that muscle tissues ARE a large part/% of the human body.

No, he is trying to explain the action through which sodium bicarb enhances athletic performance and that it has nothing to do with "alkalyzing" the body. The pH of all the body's cells (including in muscle) do not change.

Posted

Bottle water will have a lower Ph as the minerals have been removed thru distillation or reverse osmosis. Although oranges are acidic when eaten they will cause your stomach to become alkaline this is caused by the alkalizing minerals found in a orange. Rain water tends to be acidic as it can be very pure with no minerals, grass and other plants will green up as they like a little bit of water on the acid side.

Oranges will not "cause your stomach to become alkaline" but will slightly raise its pH (though still within acidic range). Since the pH of the gastric juices in the stomach is about 1, anything you might eat or drink will make your stomach contents less acidic than they otherwise are. Of course, the higher the pH of whatever you ingest, the greater the change. That's the pH of your stomach contents, not the stomach organ itself, that changes and the changes are temporary.

Posted

There are a wealth of studies that show sodium bicarb loading substantially increases athletic performance.

Being skeptical I had wondered whether any of those studies been published in a well-regarded scientific journal. (On-line journals and conference reports don't count.) I was rather surprised to find that one has, in the British Medical Journal: http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/1/41.short

However, the enhancement to athletic performance observed is nothing to do with body pH (which is tightly regulated), but presumably to do with the concentration of bicarbonate ions in the body.

Sounds like your trying to classify the PH of the muscles as not being part of the body.

I guess that is some sort of technical argument.

It would appear to most that muscle tissues ARE a large part/% of the human body.

No, he is trying to explain the action through which sodium bicarb enhances athletic performance and that it has nothing to do with "alkalyzing" the body. The pH of all the body's cells (including in muscle) do not change.

What other chemical reaction is occurring?

When Sodium Bicarbonate or combinations of potassium, magnesium and sodium bicarbonate are applied its been shown to

increase time to lactic acid buildup and fatigue

decrease soreness intensity and duration

and

decrease recovery time

It would seem its PH buffering the system. Is short term PH buffering not affecting the PH mechanism?

Does sodium bicarbonate have another mechanism than PH to effect those kinds of performance changes?

Isn't this similar to taking B vitamins? They don't last long in the system but when they are in the system then other processes can utilize them for higher performance.

So its like arguing B vitamins don't change a specific B vitamin status in the blood etc because they are just in the system short term?

Posted

Just incidentally, while on the subject of tap vs. bottled: while Bangkok's water supply has been deemed safe to drink, that certification takes place at the source. It is not an end line test, such as out of a bubbler at a park or a residential or hotel tap. The water system has a chance to be compromised due to breaks, leaks, unregulated connections and contaminated back flow associated with these.

Many modern hotels have their own water filtration systems and it may be safe to drink from their taps, but I would not count on it. If you have not lived here for quite awhile, I would not chance it. Why is it you see so many Thais using bottled water? Because they get sick too!

Once while waiting for my number to be drawn at an Immigration Office queue, I was about to get a drink from the provided bottled water from the dispenser using a paper cup. The woman sitting next to me said something like "sir, that water is contaminated, you shouldn't drink it." I thought she was just being a busybody and was prepared to ignore her. She insisted and told me in English with a German accent, " I am a Micro-biologist and I have always suspected this bottle to be contaminated. On my last trip I took a sample back with me to Germany and confirmed that it has several unwanted micro organisms that will make you sick."

Well, that stopped me and makes one wonder about any bottled water. I don't know if they were filling it from the tap, or if the government went with the low bid and crappy water company.

Just water for thought.

Posted (edited)

Ph is tightly regulated by breathing and kidney function. You can drop your body's pH slightly just by holding your breath and letting the CO2 accumunlate which forms carboxylic acid. If you breath quickly and lose more CO2 you will increase your bodies pH by decreasing carboxylic acid. You need to take into account this is an onging process. If you consume sodium bicarbonate which is the salt of carboxylic acid, you are really just consuming sodium, because the equilibrium is maintained by your body.

It is true that lactate (lactic acid) builds up in your muscles during anaerobic metabolism. It accumulates when you cannot supply your muscles with enough oxygen to renew NADPH to NADP to keep the Kreb's cycle going with regular aerobic metabolism. This allows you to keep producing ATP which is used as an energy source by your cells, muscles included.

Lactate needs to be transported to your liver to be metabolized.

Consuming carboxylate (baking soda) makes your body excrete more sodium, using a more complex buffer might achieve different results lasting more than a couple hours. Just as consuming vinegar or vitamin C will cause your kidneys to excrete more acid drawing some substances with it. Acidifying urine is believed to speed detox of some substances at times.

Edited by GregBahder
Posted (edited)

Good breakdown of sodium bicarbonate effects on the body.

http://examine.com/supplements/Sodium+Bicarbonate/

2.2. Serum

When 300mg/kg sodium bicarbonate is given to recreationally active males at rest (400mL liquid), there is an increase in blood bicarbonate and pH within 30 minutes which plateus at 60-90 minutes and declines yet remains above baseline for up to 3 hours post ingestion[17] which is due to a reduction in serum hydrogen ions (H+) which follow the same time course.[19]

The plateau in serum levels (from 300mg/kg) reached 30.7-31.7mmol/L from a concentration of 23.8mmol/L, and on an individual basis people in this study seemed to peak at either 60 minutes or 90 minutes (although all subjects recorded a peak).[17]

Evidently sodium bicarbonate does change blood PH for about 3 hours per dose.

Edited by CobraSnakeNecktie
Posted

There are a wealth of studies that show sodium bicarb loading substantially increases athletic performance.

So much so the various regulating bodies are considering testing for high levels of bicarb as banned performance enhancing drugs.

http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/buffer/lrm.htm

http://www.academia.edu/1841940/Sodium_Bicarbonate-A_Potent_Ergogenic_Aid

http://www.acsm.org/about-acsm/media-room/acsm-in-the-news/2011/08/01/soda-doping-raises-ethical-issues-as-performance-enhancing-aid

I have yet to see an endurance athlete not benefit from buffering PH. It delays the onset of muscle fatigue and soreness and improves recovery time.

Sodium Bicarb is also a masking agent for other drugs, so that is another reason why high levels are tested for.

Posted

Good breakdown of sodium bicarbonate effects on the body.

http://examine.com/supplements/Sodium+Bicarbonate/

2.2. Serum

When 300mg/kg sodium bicarbonate is given to recreationally active males at rest (400mL liquid), there is an increase in blood bicarbonate and pH within 30 minutes which plateus at 60-90 minutes and declines yet remains above baseline for up to 3 hours post ingestion[17] which is due to a reduction in serum hydrogen ions (H+) which follow the same time course.[19]

The plateau in serum levels (from 300mg/kg) reached 30.7-31.7mmol/L from a concentration of 23.8mmol/L, and on an individual basis people in this study seemed to peak at either 60 minutes or 90 minutes (although all subjects recorded a peak).[17]

Evidently sodium bicarbonate does change blood PH for about 3 hours per dose.

The sources you site do not list their sources.

Certainly really massive ingestion of sodium bocarb can alter the pH, but this is not a desirable effect, it is a very dangerous one. Most studies therefore look to ensure it is not taking place and to find the balance wherein the beneficial effects of NaHCO3 (be they on athletics, gastric irritation or whatever) will not disrupt the body' pH.

The pH of the blood is maintained within a very narrow range of 7.35 - 7.45. Any deviation from this is life threatening.

"Excessive bicarbonate ingestion places patients at risk for a variety of metabolic derangements including metabolic alkalosis, hypokalemia, hypernatremia, and even hypoxia. The clinical presentation is highly variable but can include seizures, dysrhythmias, and cardiopulmonary arrest." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9950389

There is indeed evidence of benefit from NaHCO3 in sports endurance but it most defininitely is not due to alteration in the pH of the blood and cellular fluids, on the contrary, that is the major risk that needs to be guarded against.

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/11/2/369.full.pdf

  • Like 1
Posted

There is indeed evidence of benefit from NaHCO3 in sports endurance but it most defininitely is not due to alteration in the pH of the blood and cellular fluids, on the contrary, that is the major risk that needs to be guarded against.

My best speculation as to what is happening is that the bicarbonate ions are displacing other anions within the body (since the body's pH needs to be maintained), and that bicarbonate ions are more effective than the displaced ions at some metabolic function (possibly helping to extract lactic acid from within muscle cells, then binding with it*), leading to enhanced athletic performance.

* Bicarbonate ions can't penetrate the muscle cell wall.

Posted

Good breakdown of sodium bicarbonate effects on the body.

http://examine.com/supplements/Sodium+Bicarbonate/

2.2. Serum

When 300mg/kg sodium bicarbonate is given to recreationally active males at rest (400mL liquid), there is an increase in blood bicarbonate and pH within 30 minutes which plateus at 60-90 minutes and declines yet remains above baseline for up to 3 hours post ingestion[17] which is due to a reduction in serum hydrogen ions (H+) which follow the same time course.[19]

The plateau in serum levels (from 300mg/kg) reached 30.7-31.7mmol/L from a concentration of 23.8mmol/L, and on an individual basis people in this study seemed to peak at either 60 minutes or 90 minutes (although all subjects recorded a peak).[17]

Evidently sodium bicarbonate does change blood PH for about 3 hours per dose.

The sources you site do not list their sources.

Certainly really massive ingestion of sodium bocarb can alter the pH, but this is not a desirable effect, it is a very dangerous one. Most studies therefore look to ensure it is not taking place and to find the balance wherein the beneficial effects of NaHCO3 (be they on athletics, gastric irritation or whatever) will not disrupt the body' pH.

The pH of the blood is maintained within a very narrow range of 7.35 - 7.45. Any deviation from this is life threatening.

"Excessive bicarbonate ingestion places patients at risk for a variety of metabolic derangements including metabolic alkalosis, hypokalemia, hypernatremia, and even hypoxia. The clinical presentation is highly variable but can include seizures, dysrhythmias, and cardiopulmonary arrest." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9950389

There is indeed evidence of benefit from NaHCO3 in sports endurance but it most defininitely is not due to alteration in the pH of the blood and cellular fluids, on the contrary, that is the major risk that needs to be guarded against.

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/11/2/369.full.pdf

A couple of points

1. The studies source was annotated in the text. Here it is. Inputs do change the Ion levels within the normal range.

  1. Renfree A. The time course for changes in plasma {h+} after sodium bicarbonate ingestion. Int J Sports Physiol Perform. (2007

2. Making a change to PH does not imply it leaves the 7.35 to 7.45 range. Faulty assumption?

Changes within the range are still measurable changes that for example the skeletal muscles respond to as being signficant. Saying there are no changes because the range was not exceeded is perhaps a semantic argument.

Posted

Good breakdown of sodium bicarbonate effects on the body.

http://examine.com/supplements/Sodium+Bicarbonate/

2.2. Serum

When 300mg/kg sodium bicarbonate is given to recreationally active males at rest (400mL liquid), there is an increase in blood bicarbonate and pH within 30 minutes which plateus at 60-90 minutes and declines yet remains above baseline for up to 3 hours post ingestion[17] which is due to a reduction in serum hydrogen ions (H+) which follow the same time course.[19]

The plateau in serum levels (from 300mg/kg) reached 30.7-31.7mmol/L from a concentration of 23.8mmol/L, and on an individual basis people in this study seemed to peak at either 60 minutes or 90 minutes (although all subjects recorded a peak).[17]

Evidently sodium bicarbonate does change blood PH for about 3 hours per dose.

The sources you site do not list their sources.

Certainly really massive ingestion of sodium bocarb can alter the pH, but this is not a desirable effect, it is a very dangerous one. Most studies therefore look to ensure it is not taking place and to find the balance wherein the beneficial effects of NaHCO3 (be they on athletics, gastric irritation or whatever) will not disrupt the body' pH.

The pH of the blood is maintained within a very narrow range of 7.35 - 7.45. Any deviation from this is life threatening.

"Excessive bicarbonate ingestion places patients at risk for a variety of metabolic derangements including metabolic alkalosis, hypokalemia, hypernatremia, and even hypoxia. The clinical presentation is highly variable but can include seizures, dysrhythmias, and cardiopulmonary arrest." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9950389

There is indeed evidence of benefit from NaHCO3 in sports endurance but it most defininitely is not due to alteration in the pH of the blood and cellular fluids, on the contrary, that is the major risk that needs to be guarded against.

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/11/2/369.full.pdf

A couple of points

1. The studies source was annotated in the text. Here it is. Inputs do change the Ion levels within the normal range.

  1. Renfree A. The time course for changes in plasma {h+} after sodium bicarbonate ingestion. Int J Sports Physiol Perform. (2007

2. Making a change to PH does not imply it leaves the 7.35 to 7.45 range. Faulty assumption?

Changes within the range are still measurable changes that for example the skeletal muscles respond to as being signficant. Saying there are no changes because the range was not exceeded is perhaps a semantic argument.

I should just point out that the word buffering refers to the ability of a compound to dampen out or prevent changes in pH.

So if bicarbonate helps to increase athletic performance by a buffering effect ( and I do not think that this has been proved to be the actual mechanism of the effect), this means that it makes any changes in plasma or cellular pH that occur within the normal range during exercise smaller than they would otherwise be.

So any beneficial effects would be occurring not through changing pH, but by helping to keep the pH even more tightly held within the normal range despite exercise stresses .

Other posts in the thread about changing the body's pH for health effects by drinking or eating acids or alkalis are, as Sheryl has pointed out, completely wrong.

The body is a machine that is designed to keep pH within the normal metabolic limits whatever you eat. To overcome these mechanism by extreme measures will be dangerous to your health.

Posted

Iceland Spring water is now available in Rimping Supermarkets (Chiang Mai). ph 8.8.

Congratulations, yours is the first post relevant to the OP topic in days ;-)

Posted

Good breakdown of sodium bicarbonate effects on the body.

http://examine.com/supplements/Sodium+Bicarbonate/

2.2. Serum

When 300mg/kg sodium bicarbonate is given to recreationally active males at rest (400mL liquid), there is an increase in blood bicarbonate and pH within 30 minutes which plateus at 60-90 minutes and declines yet remains above baseline for up to 3 hours post ingestion[17] which is due to a reduction in serum hydrogen ions (H+) which follow the same time course.[19]

The plateau in serum levels (from 300mg/kg) reached 30.7-31.7mmol/L from a concentration of 23.8mmol/L, and on an individual basis people in this study seemed to peak at either 60 minutes or 90 minutes (although all subjects recorded a peak).[17]

Evidently sodium bicarbonate does change blood PH for about 3 hours per dose.

The sources you site do not list their sources.

Certainly really massive ingestion of sodium bocarb can alter the pH, but this is not a desirable effect, it is a very dangerous one. Most studies therefore look to ensure it is not taking place and to find the balance wherein the beneficial effects of NaHCO3 (be they on athletics, gastric irritation or whatever) will not disrupt the body' pH.

The pH of the blood is maintained within a very narrow range of 7.35 - 7.45. Any deviation from this is life threatening.

"Excessive bicarbonate ingestion places patients at risk for a variety of metabolic derangements including metabolic alkalosis, hypokalemia, hypernatremia, and even hypoxia. The clinical presentation is highly variable but can include seizures, dysrhythmias, and cardiopulmonary arrest." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9950389

There is indeed evidence of benefit from NaHCO3 in sports endurance but it most defininitely is not due to alteration in the pH of the blood and cellular fluids, on the contrary, that is the major risk that needs to be guarded against.

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/11/2/369.full.pdf

A couple of points

1. The studies source was annotated in the text. Here it is. Inputs do change the Ion levels within the normal range.

  1. Renfree A. The time course for changes in plasma {h+} after sodium bicarbonate ingestion. Int J Sports Physiol Perform. (2007

2. Making a change to PH does not imply it leaves the 7.35 to 7.45 range. Faulty assumption?

Changes within the range are still measurable changes that for example the skeletal muscles respond to as being signficant. Saying there are no changes because the range was not exceeded is perhaps a semantic argument.

I should just point out that the word buffering refers to the ability of a compound to dampen out or prevent changes in pH.

So if bicarbonate helps to increase athletic performance by a buffering effect ( and I do not think that this has been proved to be the actual mechanism of the effect), this means that it makes any changes in plasma or cellular pH that occur within the normal range during exercise smaller than they would otherwise be.

So any beneficial effects would be occurring not through changing pH, but by helping to keep the pH even more tightly held within the normal range despite exercise stresses .

Other posts in the thread about changing the body's pH for health effects by drinking or eating acids or alkalis are, as Sheryl has pointed out, completely wrong.

The body is a machine that is designed to keep pH within the normal metabolic limits whatever you eat. To overcome these mechanism by extreme measures will be dangerous to your health.

if the body is such a great machine

than why eat vegetables and not junk food every day ?

when u get sick, your body is in a more acidic state

when you eat junk food, your body needs to buffer this acidic food by getting buffers from your minerals and eventually bones (aka stored minerals)

Posted

Unless you are suffering from acidosis -- in which case you are critically ill and in an ICU - your body is not "more acidic" when you are ill.

Simply untrue. Internet junk science.

  • Like 1
Posted

Unless you are suffering from acidosis -- in which case you are critically ill and in an ICU - your body is not "more acidic" when you are ill.

Simply untrue. Internet junk science.

Do you know that: When making extreme sport, lets say a sprint over a few minutes, does the lactic acid and the accumulated CO2 lower the ph in your blood for a short time (minutes)?

I think I read that but I can't recall exactly.

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