Schengen or family member of an EU/EEA citizen route?

[sandyf]

If the OP had gone to VFS there would be no awkward dialogue with the Spanish embassy and would be sitting waiting for the visa. But then, what do I know.

I will admit I'm not as expert as your good self in these matters.

My partner is lodging her application directly at the Spanish Consulate next week, the appointment was easy to arrange, a simple email exchange with a less than 24 hour response.

What awkward dialogue can she expect with the Spanish Embassy?

I fail to see how lodging the application with VFS would save her "sitting waiting for a visa", surely VFS only receive the application and then pass it on to the Embassy for processing, as they say on their website "Applications submitted in Bangkok will be assessed by The Embassy of Spain, located in Bangkok", and wait for it to be returned before it can be picked up. So I what the problem is with lodging it directly, as you rightly say "but then, what do I know".

I would be really grateful for your advice.

I am aware that she wants to bypass the VFS Application Centre following the incorrect advice they gave her last year when she applied for a previous Schengen Visa, to be fair VFS did apologise and promise to re-train their staff, but she wasn't convinced.

You have obviously misunderstood, I was referring to someone else who had already been in contact with the embassy and had received a disappointing response.

It would appear that you have been fortunate in receiving a more positive response. You are in a slightly different situation to the other applicant, and as I was, in that there is no question of a free visa. In fact you may well be better off at the embassy, follow the guidelines and there shouldn't be a problem.

I also tried to avoid VFS, but got knocked back by the embassy. As it happens, with circumstance as they were at the time it probably turned out for the best. As no appointment was required we managed to slot the application in alongside a Seminar in BKK so no time off work was required.

Good luck with the application.

[sandyf]

You are probably right.

In the wayward train of thought I think that there are many on here that think they can be a driving instructor without getting behind the wheel.

If the OP had gone to VFS there would be no awkward dialogue with the Spanish embassy and would be sitting waiting for the visa. But then, what do I know.

Thanks for your "useful" comment Sandy. I prefer to get information before I start wasting my time going to Bangkok and to embassies, and so far I have learnt a lot from this forum. At least now I can rock up to the embassy with the facts and some back up with some of the useful sites which people have suggested and I may just get everything sorted in one visit......... But then, what do I know !!

I responded to your original post in post No5., only you can determine the option to follow.

Good luck on the outcome.

[jpinx]

I seem to remember someone saying that the law allows the spouse of a UK passport holder to arrive as a couple but unannounced, in any EEA country and be granted admission. If the airline is a problem, what about surface travel? If Spain is the problem that would also be eliminated by travelling through France, etc.

Also - what about the situation where there is no direct flight Thailand to the preferred destination in UK, but a flight is possible via some EEA city like Amsterdam? Would the spouse be allowed out of the airport in that situation? Having said that -- the chances are that the Dutch will be up to speed on the regulations -- unlike the Spanish.

[sandyf]

I seem to remember someone saying that the law allows the spouse of a UK passport holder to arrive as a couple but unannounced, in any EEA country and be granted admission. If the airline is a problem, what about surface travel? If Spain is the problem that would also be eliminated by travelling through France, etc.

Also - what about the situation where there is no direct flight Thailand to the preferred destination in UK, but a flight is possible via some EEA city like Amsterdam? Would the spouse be allowed out of the airport in that situation? Having said that -- the chances are that the Dutch will be up to speed on the regulations -- unlike the Spanish.

You are probably quite right in what you say, unlikely to be refused just the hassle of getting sorted out. When i arrived at Tenerife there was no one to stamp the passports. Ourselves and another foreign family had to wait about 20 minutes for someone with the authority to stamp passports, only 5 passports off the flight. I suspect this is the reason the airlines are so strict, that certain destinations just do not have the resources to deal with the additional paperwork.

The OP did say he was planning to travel from the UK, just as I did. I had a flight to the UK and a flight to Tenerife, tickets were not a problem once VFS realised the canary Islands were Spain.

Amsterdam is not a good example, it is an open airport. When you come off an international flight you pass through immigration, there is no transit as such. I have gone into Amsterdam a few times waiting on an onward flight. It is a bit like several terminals under one roof.

[jpinx]

You are probably quite right in what you say, unlikely to be refused just the hassle of getting sorted out. When i arrived at Tenerife there was no one to stamp the passports. Ourselves and another foreign family had to wait about 20 minutes for someone with the authority to stamp passports, only 5 passports off the flight. I suspect this is the reason the airlines are so strict, that certain destinations just do not have the resources to deal with the additional paperwork.

I seem to remember someone saying that the law allows the spouse of a UK passport holder to arrive as a couple but unannounced, in any EEA country and be granted admission. If the airline is a problem, what about surface travel? If Spain is the problem that would also be eliminated by travelling through France, etc.

Also - what about the situation where there is no direct flight Thailand to the preferred destination in UK, but a flight is possible via some EEA city like Amsterdam? Would the spouse be allowed out of the airport in that situation? Having said that -- the chances are that the Dutch will be up to speed on the regulations -- unlike the Spanish.

The OP did say he was planning to travel from the UK, just as I did. I had a flight to the UK and a flight to Tenerife, tickets were not a problem once VFS realised the canary Islands were Spain.

Amsterdam is not a good example, it is an open airport. When you come off an international flight you pass through immigration, there is no transit as such. I have gone into Amsterdam a few times waiting on an onward flight. It is a bit like several terminals under one roof.

-----------------

Out of curiosity -- what/who made you wait to get the passport stamps in Tenerife? I can't see any problem until you come to leave, but even then it'd not be much with the proof of intent to only stay a short time being clearly demonstrated. I accidentally entered Chile without an entry stamp once (long story) and they were quite sanguine about it when I was leaving. They take the view that I was leaving, so it was not their problem anymore

P.S. Yes -- Amsterdam is "interesting". Long taxi distances from runway to gate, and equally long time to walk from international to EU/domestic -- but I'm glad to stretch my legs by then

Edited June 27, 2014 by jpinx

[7by7]

BTW, Russia is not a member of the EEA.

Exactly. A Russian would require a Schengen visa to travel to Spain.

VFS guidelines state you must have a return ticket to Thailand, Schengen regulations say you must have an onward journey.

All I know is she was upset that her application would not be accepted.

Quite, and as she is not an EEA national she has no freedom of movement rights in the EEA and so, as well as having to comply with all the other requirements, she should apply in her country of residence.

Unless she is the qualifying family member of an EEA, but not Spanish, national and travelling with or to join her EEA national family member.

So, unless that is the case, I fail to see what your point was in bringing her up!

If nationality was a problem then she would never have been at the counter in the first place. I would have thought that with your experience you would have been aware of that.

I'm sorry, but what on earth are you on about?

You seemed to be saying that she was at the counter of the VFSA run Spanish visa application centre trying to apply for a Spanish Schengen visa; where else in Bangkok do you suggest she should go? She can't apply directly to the Spanish embassy unless she is the qualifying family member of an EEA, but not Spanish, national and travelling with or to join her EEA national family member!

You said she was having problems and I suggested that these problems may have been because she may not have been resident in Thailand and so, unless she is the qualifying family member of an EEA etc., should not be able to apply in Thailand.

It's not her nationality that is the problem, and I have never said that it was; it's where she lives!

Sorry if it's too complicated for you; I have tried to keep it as simple as possible.

[7by7]

I seem to remember someone saying that the law allows the spouse of a UK passport holder to arrive as a couple but unannounced, in any EEA country and be granted admission. If the airline is a problem, what about surface travel? If Spain is the problem that would also be eliminated by travelling through France, etc.

Not just the spouse of a UK passport holder, but the spouse of any EEA national; provided they are

• travelling with or to join their EEA national spouse and
• not trying to enter the country of which the EEA spouse is a citizen.

Same rule applies to other non EEA national qualifying family members of an EEA national as well.

See under "Arriving at the border without an entry visa" on this page from Your Europe.

However, as it says there,

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

I.e., get a visa.

[jpinx]

I seem to remember someone saying that the law allows the spouse of a UK passport holder to arrive as a couple but unannounced, in any EEA country and be granted admission. If the airline is a problem, what about surface travel? If Spain is the problem that would also be eliminated by travelling through France, etc.

Not just the spouse of a UK passport holder, but the spouse of any EEA national; provided they are

• travelling with or to join their EEA national spouse and
• not trying to enter the country of which the EEA spouse is a citizen.

Same rule applies to other non EEA national qualifying family members of an EEA national as well.

See under "Arriving at the border without an entry visa" on this page from Your Europe.

However, as it says there,

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

I.e., get a visa.

Yes -- they relax the rules in one way -- but they make the job more difficult in other ways. I suppose the non-EEA person has to make the choice - time spent at the embassy vs time and possible hassle spent at the border. It's pretty much the same paperwork for both methods.....

[Donutz]

Exactly. A Russian would require a Schengen visa to travel to Spain.

VFS guidelines state you must have a return ticket to Thailand, Schengen regulations say you must have an onward journey.

All I know is she was upset that her application would not be accepted.

Quite, and as she is not an EEA national she has no freedom of movement rights in the EEA and so, as well as having to comply with all the other requirements, she should apply in her country of residence.

Unless she is the qualifying family member of an EEA, but not Spanish, national and travelling with or to join her EEA national family member.

So, unless that is the case, I fail to see what your point was in bringing her up!

If nationality was a problem then she would never have been at the counter in the first place. I would have thought that with your experience you would have been aware of that.

I'm sorry, but what on earth are you on about?

You seemed to be saying that she was at the counter of the VFSA run Spanish visa application centre trying to apply for a Spanish Schengen visa; where else in Bangkok do you suggest she should go? She can't apply directly to the Spanish embassy unless she is the qualifying family member of an EEA, but not Spanish, national and travelling with or to join her EEA national family member!

You said she was having problems and I suggested that these problems may have been because she may not have been resident in Thailand and so, unless she is the qualifying family member of an EEA etc., should not be able to apply in Thailand.

It's not her nationality that is the problem, and I have never said that it was; it's where she lives!

Sorry if it's too complicated for you; I have tried to keep it as simple as possible.

I might be confused (no time to re-read the previous pages) but in general;

- Anybody can go to a Schengen embassy and request a visa or appointment for a visa. Both EU/EAA family members aswell as anybody else. External services providers are optional. So you could either go to the Spaniards or optionally to VFS.

- If you are not a ressident of say Thailand, such as this Russian wishing to apply for a visa to Spain from Thailand, they MAY consider this if there is a justified reason for not returning to the Spanish embassy in Russia. In most cases you would need to go back to Russia but in say an emergency (your mother had an very serious accident while on holiday in Spain, ... ) it would be unreasonable to tell you to b*ggur off to Russia for a visa to Spain.

- EU/EEA spouse (Russian married to say a Brit) should be able to apply for a trip to Spain from Thailand aswell, and could even obtain entry at the border, all under Freedom of Movement.

Now my brain hurts. Is Mr Gumby in the room? It may have to come out, all the bits of it.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Donutz

[7by7]

I seem to remember someone saying that the law allows the spouse of a UK passport holder to arrive as a couple but unannounced, in any EEA country and be granted admission. If the airline is a problem, what about surface travel? If Spain is the problem that would also be eliminated by travelling through France, etc.

Not just the spouse of a UK passport holder, but the spouse of any EEA national; provided they are

• travelling with or to join their EEA national spouse and
• not trying to enter the country of which the EEA spouse is a citizen.

Same rule applies to other non EEA national qualifying family members of an EEA national as well.

See under "Arriving at the border without an entry visa" on this page from Your Europe.

However, as it says there,

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

I.e., get a visa.

Yes -- they relax the rules in one way -- but they make the job more difficult in other ways. I suppose the non-EEA person has to make the choice - time spent at the embassy vs time and possible hassle spent at the border. It's pretty much the same paperwork for both methods.....

Not really relaxing the rules or otherwise. The rules are the same; whether you show you satisfy them at the border on arrival or at an embassy prior to travelling.

But the main problem, IMHO, of not having a visa is not going to be with immigration, especially if entering at a main, busy entry point with experienced staff.

It's going to be with the carrier; whose check in staff may not be familiar with the rules and so refuse to board a non EEA national passenger who does not have a visa.

[jpinx]

I seem to remember someone saying that the law allows the spouse of a UK passport holder to arrive as a couple but unannounced, in any EEA country and be granted admission. If the airline is a problem, what about surface travel? If Spain is the problem that would also be eliminated by travelling through France, etc.

Not just the spouse of a UK passport holder, but the spouse of any EEA national; provided they are

• travelling with or to join their EEA national spouse and
• not trying to enter the country of which the EEA spouse is a citizen.

Same rule applies to other non EEA national qualifying family members of an EEA national as well.

See under "Arriving at the border without an entry visa" on this page from Your Europe.

However, as it says there,

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

I.e., get a visa.

Yes -- they relax the rules in one way -- but they make the job more difficult in other ways. I suppose the non-EEA person has to make the choice - time spent at the embassy vs time and possible hassle spent at the border. It's pretty much the same paperwork for both methods.....

Not really relaxing the rules or otherwise. The rules are the same; whether you show you satisfy them at the border on arrival or at an embassy prior to travelling.

But the main problem, IMHO, of not having a visa is not going to be with immigration, especially if entering at a main, busy entry point with experienced staff.

It's going to be with the carrier; whose check in staff may not be familiar with the rules and so refuse to board a non EEA national passenger who does not have a visa.

-----------------

Indeed. I have never had any problems with thai immigration officers, who have been pleasant and helpful, but various airlines are a complete pita sometimes. Even a valid re-entry permit needed the airline check in staff to get the supervisor after berating me for not having the right papers.

[sandyf]

You are probably quite right in what you say, unlikely to be refused just the hassle of getting sorted out. When i arrived at Tenerife there was no one to stamp the passports. Ourselves and another foreign family had to wait about 20 minutes for someone with the authority to stamp passports, only 5 passports off the flight. I suspect this is the reason the airlines are so strict, that certain destinations just do not have the resources to deal with the additional paperwork.

I seem to remember someone saying that the law allows the spouse of a UK passport holder to arrive as a couple but unannounced, in any EEA country and be granted admission. If the airline is a problem, what about surface travel? If Spain is the problem that would also be eliminated by travelling through France, etc.

Also - what about the situation where there is no direct flight Thailand to the preferred destination in UK, but a flight is possible via some EEA city like Amsterdam? Would the spouse be allowed out of the airport in that situation? Having said that -- the chances are that the Dutch will be up to speed on the regulations -- unlike the Spanish.

The OP did say he was planning to travel from the UK, just as I did. I had a flight to the UK and a flight to Tenerife, tickets were not a problem once VFS realised the canary Islands were Spain.

Amsterdam is not a good example, it is an open airport. When you come off an international flight you pass through immigration, there is no transit as such. I have gone into Amsterdam a few times waiting on an onward flight. It is a bit like several terminals under one roof.

-----------------

Out of curiosity -- what/who made you wait to get the passport stamps in Tenerife? I can't see any problem until you come to leave, but even then it'd not be much with the proof of intent to only stay a short time being clearly demonstrated. I accidentally entered Chile without an entry stamp once (long story) and they were quite sanguine about it when I was leaving. They take the view that I was leaving, so it was not their problem anymore

P.S. Yes -- Amsterdam is "interesting". Long taxi distances from runway to gate, and equally long time to walk from international to EU/domestic -- but I'm glad to stretch my legs by then

When we entered the terminal there was only one guy at a small desk, I am not sure if he was security or immigration. He was just looking at passports, not inside just the outside, and waving people through. When he saw the Thai passport he just indicated to wait behind him, then the same with another foreign family. After everyone had gone through, he took the foreign passports, told us to wait there and disappeared. The place was absolutely deserted not another person in sight, after about 15 minutes he returned, handed back the passports and apologised for the delay.

Lack of resources is an issue from the real world, it is not addressed in directives and regulations as many caught up in the UK passport fiasco can testify.

[7by7]

So you are saying that an inexperienced official at a quiet airport was unsure of the directives and regulations, went to check and having done so granted entry to your wife and the other non EEA passenger?

BTW, the reason for airlines 'being so strict' about visas has nothing to do with the resources, or lack of them, of immigration at the passenger's destination.

International agreements mean that if an airline knowingly carries someone who does not have the necessary entry clearance for their destination and that person is refused entry then the airline not only has to bear the cost of returning the passenger from whence they came, but also has to pay a large fine; up to 20,000USD if memory serves.

[sandyf]

So you are saying that an inexperienced official at a quiet airport was unsure of the directives and regulations, went to check and having done so granted entry to your wife and the other non EEA passenger?

BTW, the reason for airlines 'being so strict' about visas has nothing to do with the resources, or lack of them, of immigration at the passenger's destination.

International agreements mean that if an airline knowingly carries someone who does not have the necessary entry clearance for their destination and that person is refused entry then the airline not only has to bear the cost of returning the passenger from whence they came, but also has to pay a large fine; up to 20,000USD if memory serves.

Not what i said at all.

Credit where credit is due, you really are a master at taking things out of context.

[7by7]

So what were you saying?

Btw, you do seem to either not know what a question mark means, or are incapable of seeing them!

Edited June 30, 2014 by 7by7