Naming and Shaming A Dodgy Builder

[In Search of Space]

Apart from a few lucky people, builders the world over are the same, although still better than lawyers & accountants ! Be it Thailand or anywhere else you need to sit on top of them, a while ago I had a kitchen extension. Left wifie in charge & the wall was built at 60 degrees, even cut the floor tiles to fit ! Had to tell them to knock it down or they didn't get paid, then they did it properly.

Also, I find that Thai female builders are more reliable than men, could probably also beat me in an arm wrestle too

[rgs2001uk]

you guys all seem to be assuming the builder was thai. he is not thai. he is English

do you still think we would not win against him in the courts, with this considered?

we have it in writing that he promises to build a house for us etc etc, then later it turns out he doesnt even have a work permit

there are many stories here in hua hin of builders who repeatedly take customers for mugs, and take their money from them

surely by backing down, as many of the posters suggest above, just gives the green light for unscrupulous people like this to carry on ripping of innocent people of their hard earned cash

are you sure i cannot make a website when i am in the UK, that outlines the facts of what has happened?

Hua Hin and farang builder, why am I shaking my head in disbelief.

Too be perfectly honest here, and I know its not what you want to hear, you left yourself open to this from the start.

I remember your previous threads about house building.

Next time go search out a proper company such as Landy.

Jesus H, where is your contact, breaking down payment stages, theres your first red flag, asking for 500k, theres your second red flag.

Be thankful, you have got off lightly, others have been toasted.

Next time you are in Bkk, give me a shout, I will give you a photocopy of a proper contract and payment stages.

You went for the el cheapo option and got torched.

[Pattaya Lous]

Why do people keep paying large sums of money up front, I can't understand it there are so many stories and forum posts to warn you away from doing this.

Pay in stage payments - it's simple when they turn up on time and have done a job to your satisfaction pay them, they will then have respect for you and do a good job. If they think you are a ding dong falung with to much money you get no respect.

Sorry but no sympathy on this one Beat a dead horse only using this one because there isn't one for bashing my head up against a brick wall

Why do people not listen or learn?

[Pattaya Lous]

Apart from a few lucky people, builders the world over are the same, although still better than lawyers & accountants ! Be it Thailand or anywhere else you need to sit on top of them, a while ago I had a kitchen extension. Left wifie in charge & the wall was built at 60 degrees, even cut the floor tiles to fit ! Had to tell them to knock it down or they didn't get paid, then they did it properly.

Also, I find that Thai female builders are more reliable than men, could probably also beat me in an arm wrestle too

Sorry to interupt; but you forgot estate agents

[rgs2001uk]

Why do people keep paying large sums of money up front, I can't understand it there are so many stories and forum posts to warn you away from doing this.

Pay in stage payments - it's simple when they turn up on time and have done a job to your satisfaction pay them, they will then have respect for you and do a good job. If they think you are a ding dong falung with to much money you get no respect.

Sorry but no sympathy on this one Beat a dead horse only using this one because there isn't one for bashing my head up against a brick wall

Why do people not listen or learn?

You want the honest brutal truth, because they belive their upcountry wifes (who have never built a house in their life).

Pay 300 baht per day, holy buffalo crap, thats exactly what you will get.

The OP is nothing more than an innocent abroad, went for the cheapest option, well he got what he paid for.

Who the eff in their right mind would hand over 500k baht to some Pikey developer?

Wasnt from Sheffield was he?

[spidermike007]

Thai law prohibits defamation, not just slander. As far as I know you can be prosecuted in Thailand for defamation anywhere, if it is clear that you are the person who did the naming and shaming.

Thai law may allow someone to sue you for slander, but that is just pathetic and weak. So fight this guy tooth and nail. Call him out at every opportunity you can. Blast him online, and make his name mud. Who cares about this ridiculous, juvenile, protectionist law? Not I. And hopefully not you. Fight this law. It is about as incorrect as any law in Thailand, and insures that criminals can go on committing crimes against consumers.

Spidermike

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Pralaad]

you guys all seem to be assuming the builder was thai. he is not thai. he is English

do you still think we would not win against him in the courts, with this considered?

we have it in writing that he promises to build a house for us etc etc, then later it turns out he doesnt even have a work permit

there are many stories here in hua hin of builders who repeatedly take customers for mugs, and take their money from them

surely by backing down, as many of the posters suggest above, just gives the green light for unscrupulous people like this to carry on ripping of innocent people of their hard earned cash

are you sure i cannot make a website when i am in the UK, that outlines the facts of what has happened?

OP, i never said anything about Thai or foreigner winning.

Re-read my post again.

Court will still cost you 250K if not more and there is nothing to stop him from simply leaving the country.

You also assuming the company is in his name, for all you know he could be just a front man.

The point i was trying to make for you, that even if you win, you still lose financially.

If you name and shame and he files the case, the burden is on you to prove, again costing you money.

You can name and shame him in UK, but this is not going to help, is it?!

You can also contact revenue department to see how well he pays tax. Immigration to see how his wp is doing, DSI to see if all his employees are legal

I have a mate who sued someone for 100K for unpaid work. His legals fees amounted to only 40K, court also awarded him the costs.

Other party failed to pay, he had to go back to court, another 10K,

Other party paid 20K, again back to court and another 10K,

Other party paid 20K, it went on like this for almost 2 years, until my mate eventually gave up.

So in the end he has lost more than he had won

[JeremyBowskill]

"Perhaps you kinda "forced" him to quote you a superlow Cheap Charly price and he was too weak and in such money trouble that he simply agreed to it all without thinking twice. The typical Thai "Yes, no problem!" thing... Usually stories like yours are born through those Cheap Charly ways of thinking. Correct me if I am wrong, but I sense I am close to the true essence of your story here."

What a crock of horsesh!t!!! How is it OP's fault that someone can't add up??? Exactly how could you force someone to quote stupidly?

I believe the portion you actually quoted explains it - reading skills and the ability to let a text "sink in" and analyse it would help.

Btw... There was a thread about teaching analytical skills on TV just today

The OPs only fault so far is that he did not give us the whole story - we know that 500k were paid and the house is 30% completed... We have no info about the original contract/agreement, the total house price, time frame, etc. but despite all this missing pieces in the puzzle several members automatically feel obliged to jump on the "fight for that poor, innocent, betrayed foreigner" train without even knowing whether or not he actually was conned after all. It's pathetic!

Its either my analyitical skills or you being a pompous arse, I just can't decide..........

[In Search of Space]

Apart from a few lucky people, builders the world over are the same, although still better than lawyers & accountants ! Be it Thailand or anywhere else you need to sit on top of them, a while ago I had a kitchen extension. Left wifie in charge & the wall was built at 60 degrees, even cut the floor tiles to fit ! Had to tell them to knock it down or they didn't get paid, then they did it properly.

Also, I find that Thai female builders are more reliable than men, could probably also beat me in an arm wrestle too

Sorry to interupt; but you forgot estate agents

Sorry, estate agents are definitely up there with lawyers & accountants the world over

[MYKTHEMIN]

Total waste of time, get a new builder and move on, it is NOT worth all the hastle, you will never get any money back just loose more on lawyers and court fees. live and learn.

Never? I can't speak with such terminal certainty. It's this perceived fear that plays well for the dishonest merchants, vendors, contractors and such.

Times are changing and one has to decide if they wish to be part of that change. Living and learning is a good partner of assertive and courteous pursuit of what is right and just.

So far, that has worked for me.

Up toy you, if you have money to waste, you clearly have not been here very long.

[UKJASE]

The lawyer and court fees are going to cost us 50,000 B all in. Translation of the emails, contract etc has cost us 6,000 B

We are in pursuit of 300,000 B +, so hopefully it is worth the risk

He has a kid here by an ex thai wife, plus he has a large house to sell that he is trying to sell for 15 million Baht plus, so he has the assets to repay us, plus he has reason to stay in thailand

i dont think i could look at myself in the mirror, or look my wife in the face, if i were to just walk away

He has offered us 50,000 B already in writing, so has accepted he is at fault. We just need him to increase the amount, but unfortunately i dont think he has it at the minute, as he has used all our funds up to renovate his big house, so he can sell it

[Pralaad]

The lawyer and court fees are going to cost us 50,000 B all in. Translation of the emails, contract etc has cost us 6,000 B

We are in pursuit of 300,000 B +, so hopefully it is worth the risk

He has a kid here by an ex thai wife, plus he has a large house to sell that he is trying to sell for 15 million Baht plus, so he has the assets to repay us, plus he has reason to stay in thailand

i dont think i could look at myself in the mirror, or look my wife in the face, if i were to just walk away

He has offered us 50,000 B already in writing, so has accepted he is at fault. We just need him to increase the amount, but unfortunately i dont think he has it at the minute, as he has used all our funds up to renovate his big house, so he can sell it

Let us know how it works out for you.

Can only hope, you will not be back wanting to sue the lawyer for walking away half way through the case or wanting more money

[JeremyBowskill]

The lawyer and court fees are going to cost us 50,000 B all in. Translation of the emails, contract etc has cost us 6,000 B

We are in pursuit of 300,000 B +, so hopefully it is worth the risk

He has a kid here by an ex thai wife, plus he has a large house to sell that he is trying to sell for 15 million Baht plus, so he has the assets to repay us, plus he has reason to stay in thailand

i dont think i could look at myself in the mirror, or look my wife in the face, if i were to just walk away

He has offered us 50,000 B already in writing, so has accepted he is at fault. We just need him to increase the amount, but unfortunately i dont think he has it at the minute, as he has used all our funds up to renovate his big house, so he can sell it

Last time I used a lawyer he showed me cases he had been working on for 5-6 years that still hadn't got to court. Not a route I would go down, as it will likely cost you more than you think and even if you win at the end, it still doesn't mean he will pay. Better if you can come to some private deal which he has a chance of sticking to, maybe something in regard to the sale of his own house. Maybe getting a contract drawn up by a lawyer linked to the sale of his own property (with a time limit on it) with some kind of monthly/yearly interest on the "loan" you have made to him. I would explain that he can either sign that or go to court (even if I had no intention of following through on it) and see if you can agree terms for the contract. Maybe even take the 50k he is offering as part of the contract, as it seems that might be all he has right now.

Edited July 3, 2014 by JeremyBowskill

[Albertosez]

I wouldn't advise the legal route here......at least not one which heads towards the court. It has improved but it's still likely to disappoint you. Get a lawyer to gather the basic facts and see how you can " broker" some sort of a settlement from the sale of his house. It may be that his house is in a company name, in which case you would have the option to look at taking shares in his company in lieu of the debt ? At least it would be another option. The courts will take at least 1 year with something like this and your costs could end up being more than the debt you are trying to recover. It sounds like you have direct dialogue with this guy and that is a big advantage as he is English. Try to sort it out between you and get the lawyer to document the agreement behind you. I doubt you will do the same again - so I will leave it at that, but just remember there are a lot of desperate people here and ethics is a word that few understand.

Good luck!

[dksharron]

Hi

I sued a builder and got my money back. We later sold the house and made a good profit as well, so it was definitely worth the effort.

If your builder did some work, then it is a civil case, not criminal fraud.

If he has nothing on the surface, it is hard to get something, but not impossible. I am sure he has a truck, on finance or not.

I live in Pattaya, and the lawyer cost me 30,000 baht here.

If you would like more info on how we went about it, and if you are building your house in Pattaya, I will be happy to recommend my lawyer to you.

You will need to show how much work was supposed to be completed for the 500,000 payment, and how much work was actually completed, and then the difference. You can also get a city hall building inspector to come out and look and write a little report for you. Yes, you will need to pay him for the effort.

Best of luck

Edited July 3, 2014 by dksharron

[stgrhe]

Why would anyone pay so much money up front without a security, e.g. a bankers guarantee?

The golden rule in any sound business is that you pay nothing for nothing; and in the case of building a house you pay by installments after each completed phase and final payment after full completion.

If the builder cannot finance the construction with his own money, walk away!

Dead wrong! No builder starts without a downpayment! This is some of the biggest B$ I've ever heard!

I didn't say that; I say pay the down payment but request a guarantee such as Escrow or a Bank Guarantee. All major building companies in Thailand would agree to this whereas cheap Charlie "Somchai" wouldn't.

[dksharron]

After you win in court, if he has not sold the house, you can put a lien on it depending on who owns it. Will your case be against him or his company, and the directors? Do you know if he is also a shareholder / director in the company that owns his house? His car is also a possibility, even if it is on finance. You can put a hold on its sale as long as his name s also on the ownership documents.

He will have something in his name somewhere for you to get.

Best of luck.

The lawyer and court fees are going to cost us 50,000 B all in. Translation of the emails, contract etc has cost us 6,000 B

We are in pursuit of 300,000 B +, so hopefully it is worth the risk

He has a kid here by an ex thai wife, plus he has a large house to sell that he is trying to sell for 15 million Baht plus, so he has the assets to repay us, plus he has reason to stay in thailand

i dont think i could look at myself in the mirror, or look my wife in the face, if i were to just walk away

He has offered us 50,000 B already in writing, so has accepted he is at fault. We just need him to increase the amount, but unfortunately i dont think he has it at the minute, as he has used all our funds up to renovate his big house, so he can sell it

[UKJASE]

we went to meet the lawyer yesterday morning

he had done some digging and it turns out that the builder closed his company 4 years ago. he has another company under a different name (which probably owns his house), but the one he was trading as, and building houses using it's name, and whose headed paper he used when quoting us to build etc, has actually been closed down for 4 years

when my wife and i heard this we thought this would mean we had no entity to sue, but the lawyer has said this makes the consequences more serious for the builder, as he has been trading fraudulently, and has received money by deception. he said he is looking at even more serious consequences now

so today, the lawyer is writing to the builder again to see if he will settle, else it is off to the courts we go. the lawyer says the process wont take too long (ie couple of months max.)

thanks for advice with this guys - i will post back any news for those that are interested

[KittenKong]

.... it turns out that the builder closed his company 4 years ago. he has another company under a different name (which probably owns his house), but the one he was trading as, and building houses using it's name, and whose headed paper he used when quoting us to build etc, has actually been closed down for 4 years

Sounds like yet another hard-working and honest expat businessman of the type that can be found on every street here.

When your dealings with him are complete be sure to report him to Immigration and Tax Office. He's bound to be breaking other rules.

[Pattaya Lous]

The lawyer and court fees are going to cost us 50,000 B all in. Translation of the emails, contract etc has cost us 6,000 B

We are in pursuit of 300,000 B +, so hopefully it is worth the risk

He has a kid here by an ex thai wife, plus he has a large house to sell that he is trying to sell for 15 million Baht plus, so he has the assets to repay us, plus he has reason to stay in thailand

i dont think i could look at myself in the mirror, or look my wife in the face, if i were to just walk away

He has offered us 50,000 B already in writing, so has accepted he is at fault. We just need him to increase the amount, but unfortunately i dont think he has it at the minute, as he has used all our funds up to renovate his big house, so he can sell it

Last time I used a lawyer he showed me cases he had been working on for 5-6 years that still hadn't got to court. Not a route I would go down, as it will likely cost you more than you think and even if you win at the end, it still doesn't mean he will pay. Better if you can come to some private deal which he has a chance of sticking to, maybe something in regard to the sale of his own house. Maybe getting a contract drawn up by a lawyer linked to the sale of his own property (with a time limit on it) with some kind of monthly/yearly interest on the "loan" you have made to him. I would explain that he can either sign that or go to court (even if I had no intention of following through on it) and see if you can agree terms for the contract. Maybe even take the 50k he is offering as part of the contract, as it seems that might be all he has right now.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Pattaya Lous

[mccw]

Wait until you win the court case. Then you can post the results as fact. Otherwise I think you could be open to trouble.

But chances are they not got the money to press charges against you anyways. But up to you risk it or not.

Best to just move on I think.

I lost 700k btw- with zero work done.

Going on criminal and civil action against the scammer.