Malay Or Thai In Deep South?

[george]

Govt backs Prem against use of Malay in South

PM: Local tongue fine for personal use, but Thai must be used by state officials

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his deputy Chidchai Vanasathidya yesterday jumped on the bandwagon of Privy Council President Prem Tinsulanonda who has opposed the use of Malay as an additional "official language" in the South.

"Thai must be the official language. But it's fine for the local people to use another language in their personal communication," Thaksin said yesterday.

Chidchai said Prem's suggestion reflected the sentiment of the majority of people in Thailand.

The National Reconciliation Council (NRC), an independent body tasked with looking for ways to integrate the Malay-speaking South with the rest of the country, had floated the idea of using Malay as a "working language" to make people feel more comfortable when communicating with state officials.

The decision to shoot down the proposal was deemed a major set-back for the NRC that was headed by former prime minister Anand Panyarachun.

A prominent academic and NRC member Ahmed Somboon Bualuang said Prem and the government ministers have misunderstood the intention behind the proposal.

"The idea is to make Malay a working language, not an official language as they had stated," Ahmed said.

He declined to comment on whether he thought Prem and Thaksin had used the word "official language" as a way to politicise the issue and generate opposition to the proposal.

Ahmed urged the state to be more opened-minded and not feel threatened by the Malay language, which is not only spoken in the three southernmost provinces of Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat but also throughout Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and the southern region of the Philippines.

Ahmed said Malay was an integral part of the southern community and was used in their daily lives - and in their teaching of Islam.

Ahmed said the fact that nearly 300 million people in Southeast Asia speak the Malay language in various dialects should prompt the state to look at the idea as an investment in human capital and in economic prospects.

"Even the Chinese in Singapore are encouraging the use of Malay language," said Ahmed, referring to next month's "blogging" contest to encourage Singaporeans to make greater use of Malay. Fourteen per cent of the city-state's predominantly Chinese population are Malays.

--The Nation 2006-06-26

[Scott]

Separating people from their mother tongue can be a dangerous situation. Take a look at Turkey (and Iraq) and the Kurds.

[Oswulf]

The Nation article seems very confused. People in the South don't speak Malay (Bahasa Melayu or Bahasa Malaysia) - they speak Yawi - and the objection is to an official status for Yawi, not Bahasa Melayu.

Yawi is a dialect of Bahasa Melayu (officially known as Bahasa Melayu Patani), and is spoken by about 3 million people. It is written using the jawi script - not the roman alphabet which is used for Bahasa Melayu - rendering it unintelligible to almost everyone.

[h90]

The Nation article seems very confused. People in the South don't speak Malay (Bahasa Melayu or Bahasa Malaysia) - they speak Yawi - and the objection is to an official status for Yawi, not Bahasa Melayu.

Yawi is a dialect of Bahasa Melayu (officially known as Bahasa Melayu Patani), and is spoken by about 3 million people. It is written using the jawi script - not the roman alphabet which is used for Bahasa Melayu - rendering it unintelligible to almost everyone.

How compatible are these languages? Can people who speak Yawi speak communicate with a guy from Malaysia or is it too different?

[MrSnrang]

Why not let them declare it as an official language?

Thai is only used in Thailand. It's useless anywhere else. If people can learn multiple languages it can only be an advantange, If the government officially sponsors another language it can be an advantage for everyone.

It's as simple as that.

[Tarragona]

Separating people from their mother tongue can be a dangerous situation. Take a look at Turkey (and Iraq) and the Kurds.

It also maintains an 'us' and 'them' division where all those not using Thai are 'them'.

the objection is to an official status for Yawi, not Bahasa Melayu.

Read it again carefully - you are making the exactly the same error as the Thai officials

The idea is to make Malay a working language, NOT an official language

[Oswulf]

How compatible are these languages? Can people who speak Yawi speak communicate with a guy from Malaysia or is it too different?

Across the border in Kelantan they speak another dialect called Kelante. It is pretty similar to Yawi and the languages are mutually intelligible (which isn't surprising because families were divided by the arbitrary partitioning of the area by the British).

However, Kelante and Yawi are unintelligible to most Malay Malaysians. This is particularly the case for the written language, because Yawi is written with a script derived from Arabic.

[hammered]

Thai nationalism will preclude the upgrading of Yawi, or for that matter any other local language.

[tettyan]

This is a BIG mistake. The NRC already compromised quite a bit by excluding any reference to the possibility of granting autonomy to the 3 southern provinces. Which is fine - autonomy can be one solution, but it's not the only solution, and it's not necessarily guaranteed to work, given how it's implemented. But Thai nationalism would preclude any form of autonomy.

While growing up in the west, I tired very quickly of political correctness. But I think Thailand could use a big dose of political correctness and try to embrace its cultural and linguistic diversity, as opposed to trying to squash it. Even a communist country like China officially recognizes 55 minority "nationalities" as a matter of policy (how the policy is implemented in practice is of course another matter). But it seems as if Thais have a lot of difficulty in accepting even the principle of this concept.

Seperatism is not inevitable, but the stupidity of an out-of-touch central government can turn out to be a godsend for the seperatists. Just like the British government's over-reaction to the Easter Rebellion of 1916, which was almost like a dream-come-true for Irish nationalists.

The rebels had little public support at the time, and were largely blamed for hundreds of people being killed and wounded, (mostly civilians caught in the crossfire). At the time the executions were demanded in motions passed in some Irish local authorities and by many newspapers, including the Irish Independent and The Irish Times. Prisoners being transported to Frongoch internment camp in Wales were jeered and spat upon by angry Dubliners -many of whom had relatives serving with British forces in the First World War.

... [but] Irish nationalist opinion was appalled by the executions and wholesale arrests of political activists (most of whom had no connection with the rebellion) that took place after the Rising. This indignation led to a radical shift in public perception of the Rising and within three years of its failure, the seperatist Sinn Fein party won an overwhelming majority in a general election, supporting the creation of an Irish Republic and endorsing the actions of the 1916 rebels.

[phuketsiam]

just make everyone speak in English, in SA the official language used to be Africaans, since the ANC got to power Mandella made a very wise move, he declared all 11 languages used (9 tribal and English and Africaans) as official languages, but also decreed the language of law and government to English, the logical choice as the international language of commerce

[Explorer]

How compatible are these languages? Can people who speak Yawi speak communicate with a guy from Malaysia or is it too different?

Across the border in Kelantan they speak another dialect called Kelante. It is pretty similar to Yawi and the languages are mutually intelligible (which isn't surprising because families were divided by the arbitrary partitioning of the area by the British).

However, Kelante and Yawi are unintelligible to most Malay Malaysians. This is particularly the case for the written language, because Yawi is written with a script derived from Arabic.

Oswulf, i had to disagree with you on certain parts -

Kelante is a dialect spoken from the state of Kelantan this same goes as Terengganu as they have their on dialects and also Penang in which none of them really speak the bahasa Melayu. In Malaysia most states on the nothern side would tend to have their own dialects different from the south.

As for Jawi is the arabic script which spells out the same sound as bahasa melayu, no difference - it does not spells out the kelante or Yawi language. Infact from my knowledge (with Dewan Bahasa and Pustaka which is like the oxford for Bahasa Malaysia/Melayu) there has not been any register of the language Yawi it is only a dialect of Kelante and the script Jawi.

If you still say that Jawi is meant for the Yawi language than you must explain to me how the Johorians (in the south near to Singapore) do not speak Yawi yet they still read Jawi and sounds exactly like bahasa melayu?

Explorer

[Scott]

I think the important thing in the South is that they be talking to one another--I don't care what language they use or it's status!

By the way, the info on the different variations of the languages is interesting and informative. It sounds like a lot of people in the South (and Malaysia) can understand one another, now to get the Thai gov't to understand them!

[chuang]

Today they want Malay to be an offical language...Tomorrow they want Islam to be an offical religion...Then they want the southern Thailand to be know as Malayland...and finally they said the southern part of Thailand belongs to them, the Malays and not the Thais..how convincing..

[Plus]

They didn't say they want Malay as an official language. They didn't even say they want Malay as a working language. It's what Thai National Reconciliation Comission recommended, to foster better understanding and cooperation between the state and "natives".

So far Malay Thais themselves haven't set any demands at all. No statehood, no autonomy, no official languages, nothing.

[jaiyenjohn]

just make everyone speak in English, in SA the official language used to be Africaans, since the ANC got to power Mandella made a very wise move, he declared all 11 languages used (9 tribal and English and Africaans) as official languages, but also decreed the language of law and government to English, the logical choice as the international language of commerce

I agree, make English the "working language" of the south, couple it with the muslim work ethic and the natural resources there both ag and tourism, and pretty soon the south could be one of the wealthiest parts of Thailand.

If giving working language status to the lingua franca down there, helps diffuse the situation even a little bit, isn't that worth it?

[Oswulf]

If you still say that Jawi is meant for the Yawi language than you must explain to me how the Johorians (in the south near to Singapore) do not speak Yawi yet they still read Jawi and sounds exactly like bahasa melayu?

Explorer

Jawi used to be used much more widely in Malaysia. However, following the introduction of the Roman alphabet, Jawi became obsolete in most areas of Malaysia, except for some legal and ceremonial purposes. Jawi is much more difficult to learn and write than the Roman alphabet, so the Roman alphabet became favoured. It's a similar situation to Turkey where, under Ataturk, the Arabic script was abandonned in favour of the Roman one.

Now, the vast majority of Malaysians can not read Jawi.

The reason that people reading Jawi sound as if they are speaking Bahasa Melayu is because they are speaking Bahasa Melayu. Jawi and the Roman alphabet are simply alternative ways of representing the same language, the same sounds.

[stats]

If you still say that Jawi is meant for the Yawi language than you must explain to me how the Johorians (in the south near to Singapore) do not speak Yawi yet they still read Jawi and sounds exactly like bahasa melayu?

[longway]

They didn't say they want Malay as an official language. They didn't even say they want Malay as a working language. It's what Thai National Reconciliation Comission recommended, to foster better understanding and cooperation between the state and "natives".

So far Malay Thais themselves haven't set any demands at all. No statehood, no autonomy, no official languages, nothing.

so u think its all the work of 'foreign islamic insurgents'?

[lukamar]

My thought is you cannot have a regional second official language without causing major problems in the future.

Canada opted for this approach making French and English the official languages of Canada. Every government document is in both languages, Every court, Every Government employee, every product you buy is printed in both languages, if I want my child to be schooled in French the government has to pay for it even if that child is the only Francophone in the town or city. I've even get 5 mandatory French TV channels and a bunch of Radio stations that are required to be broadcast even if there are no French speakers watching or listening, the Nealson's for those channels outside Quebec are almost Zero.

If Thailand makes a regional official language anywhere, not just the south, they would be opening a can of worms for other groups to ask for similar status. The Thai Government some time ago decided Central Thai would be the official language because of the regional dialect problems and they should stay with that approach. Keep Central Thai as the official language and let the people converse in any language they want in day to day use, be it in the North, Issan or the South.

[chuang]

They didn't say they want Malay as an official language. They didn't even say they want Malay as a working language. It's what Thai National Reconciliation Comission recommended, to foster better understanding and cooperation between the state and "natives".

So far Malay Thais themselves haven't set any demands at all. No statehood, no autonomy, no official languages, nothing.

So why are they killing the innocents...hoping to go to heaven where virgins are waiting

[tettyan]

My thought is you cannot have a regional second official language without causing major problems in the future.

If Thailand makes a regional official language anywhere, not just the south, they would be opening a can of worms for other groups to ask for similar status.

Really? I havn't seen the Chinese in Vancouver demanding that Chinese be made an official language too.

You also forget that the on the flip side, the Official Languages Act and bilingualism protects the rights of anglophones within Quebec.

In any case, to remind you, the recommendation does not call for Thailand as a whole to go bilingual, but for Yawi to be made a "working" second language only in the three provinces. Just like native populations in Canada and the US have the right to access public services in their own languages while in their areas, even though they havn't be declared "official" languages. The situation is not the same as Isarn dialect, which is very close to central Thai - as discussed above, Yawi is really a form of Malay and bears no resemblance to Thai. The people there have always spoken this language (in addition to having their own culture and history), long before they were annexed by Siam.

[Tarragona]

Keep Central Thai as the official language and let the people converse in any language they want in day to day use, be it in the North, Issan or the South.

The problem is that "day to day use" for many people includes occasional contact with various government/official departments. The point about the idea is that in such situations they should be able to use the local dialect. It doesn't mean that the dialect becomes an official language, simply that it can be used by local people (who may not be able to speak Central Thai) when they need to communicate in district offices and the like.

[Anek18]

just make everyone speak in English, in SA the official language used to be Africaans, since the ANC got to power Mandella made a very wise move, he declared all 11 languages used (9 tribal and English and Africaans) as official languages, but also decreed the language of law and government to English, the logical choice as the international language of commerce

I agree, make English the "working language" of the south, couple it with the muslim work ethic and the natural resources there both ag and tourism, and pretty soon the south could be one of the wealthiest parts of Thailand.

If giving working language status to the lingua franca down there, helps diffuse the situation even a little bit, isn't that worth it?

I'm sure tourist love to go down south for vacation with all of these bombing and all. The south does have the resources of make it self being weathy but all they can do being is hateful toward the western and Thailand.

[lukamar]

My thought is you cannot have a regional second official language without causing major problems in the future.

If Thailand makes a regional official language anywhere, not just the south, they would be opening a can of worms for other groups to ask for similar status.

Really? I havn't seen the Chinese in Vancouver demanding that Chinese be made an official language too.

The Chinese do not have to demand it, their language rights are entrenched in the Canadian Constitution and it has been estimated that in 25 years Cantonese will be the working language of Vancouver.

You also forget that the on the flip side, the Official Languages Act and bilingualism protects the rights of anglophones within Quebec.

Bill C-120 was put into existence to appease the FLQ (Terrorists in Quebec) and the Quebec separatist movement after a term (1963-1970) of political unrest bombings and political murders, similar to the situation in the deep south. 35 years later Canada still has a strong separatist movement but they are working within the political system.

If you were to open a store in Quebec and put up a big English sign "Tettyan's Thai Imports" the French language police would shortly arrive at your door and serve you with a warrant because your sign is not in French, you would have to replace the English sign with a French one - so much for anglophone rights in the OLAct. If you opened that same store in Vancouver, your sign could be in any language you heart desires.

In any case, to remind you, the recommendation does not call for Thailand as a whole to go bilingual, but for Yawi to be made a "working" second language only in the three provinces.

Why not declare every area of Thailand has to use the working second language of the area you are in. When I registered my marriage in Phayao they used Northern at the Amphoe and the ceremony was in the Pauli language. When I go to Customs or Immigration they try to speak my working language, English, most of the time. If subsequent Thai governments had upheld the order by the Pibulsonggram regime in the 40's that Thai was the only language to be taught in schools, we would not be having this debate now.

[tettyan]

35 years later Canada still has a strong separatist movement but they are working within the political system.

My point exactly.

If you were to open a store in Quebec and put up a big English sign "Tettyan's Thai Imports" the French language police would shortly arrive at your door and serve you with a warrant because your sign is not in French, you would have to replace the English sign with a French one - so much for anglophone rights in the OLAct. If you opened that same store in Vancouver, your sign could be in any language you heart desires.

I am well aware of the debate over Bill 101. In the end, the compromise allows me to display my sign in English so long as I display the French text alongside, it, the the French being "markedly predominant".

Why not declare every area of Thailand has to use the working second language of the area you are in. When I registered my marriage in Phayao they used Northern at the Amphoe and the ceremony was in the Pauli language. When I go to Customs or Immigration they try to speak my working language, English, most of the time. If subsequent Thai governments had upheld the order by the Pibulsonggram regime in the 40's that Thai was the only language to be taught in schools, we would not be having this debate now.

Duhhh! The French were there first. I think bill 101 is an abomination personally, but in light of earlier English Canadian efforts to restrict the rights of Francophones outside Quebec (such as the Manitoba Schools Question and Regulation 17), the reaction by Quebec nationalists isn't all too surprising.

My views on this matter are colored by my experience growing up as an ethnic minority in the country where I was raised for most of my life. Those who demand an "our way or the highway" approach toward cultural integration should have the benefit of such an experience before making such strong, blanket statements on this matter. They should know what it's like to speak Thai since you were born only to be dropped off on the first day of kindergarden to discover that everyone else around you is speaking some strange alien language.

In any case, as immigrants, my parents had to accept that they were going to be raising their children as westerners. It's part of the deal and I believe it's fair. People like my parents had a choice - if they didn't want anything to do with western culture, and if they wanted to raise their children as "Thais", they could have chosen to remain in Thailand. On the other hand, Pattani Malays and the Quebecois, as indigenous ethnic minorities, were not given the luxury of that choice.

The more you try to shove integration down their throats, the uglier it's going to get. As you alluded to earlier, as much as a pain the BQ and PQ (Quebec sovereigntist parties) are, I'd take them any day over the FLQ, or PULO, or any terrorist group. Bringing those with grievances into the system is key.

IMHO, if Thailand is ever to solve the southern troubles for good, it's going to need to move from a narrow, ethnocentric definition of nationalism to a more inclusive form of civic nationalism that is not necessarily restricted by blood, religion or language.

Edited July 1, 2006 by tettyan

[h90]

My thought is you cannot have a regional second official language without causing major problems in the future.

Canada opted for this approach making French and English the official languages of Canada. Every government document is in both languages, Every court, Every Government employee, every product you buy is printed in both languages, if I want my child to be schooled in French the government has to pay for it even if that child is the only Francophone in the town or city. I've even get 5 mandatory French TV channels and a bunch of Radio stations that are required to be broadcast even if there are no French speakers watching or listening, the Nealson's for those channels outside Quebec are almost Zero.

If Thailand makes a regional official language anywhere, not just the south, they would be opening a can of worms for other groups to ask for similar status. The Thai Government some time ago decided Central Thai would be the official language because of the regional dialect problems and they should stay with that approach. Keep Central Thai as the official language and let the people converse in any language they want in day to day use, be it in the North, Issan or the South.

Switzerland has at min. 3 official languages, Belgium min. 2 Austria min. 4 or 5, Spain min. 2 or 3.

I don't know if it makes sense, but I don't think that it causes troubles. And I don't see in Austria that every gouverment employee can speak all the languages or every product is printed in more languages.

It is enough if the official in that area can speak that language and at court you get help in your language if you demand it.

Maybe it is somehow better to let them freedom on how they speak and what they do, instead force them with the guns and get bombs in exchange.

[lukamar]

My views on this matter are colored by my experience growing up as an ethnic minority in the country where I was raised for most of my life.

Tettyan please don't think that because I live on the west coast, I'm anti-French. My first wife was from Montreal and my two daughters were schooled in French language schools here on the west coast and are Bilingual as their heritage is both French and English.

What I am saying is that allowing a second language will not fix the problem, it certainly has not in Canada.

[tettyan]

What I am saying is that allowing a second language will not fix the problem, it certainly has not in Canada.

Well, it's certainly no panacea. Just like the whole idea of "autonomy", it's not going to solve everything. I think Anand really wanted to include the consideration of creating an autonomous region in the NRC's final report, but was stopped by more conservative elements. That left the "working language" issue as the only substantive concession. With that gone, there's really not much left to offer them.

As discussed in other threads, being a "Muslim Thai" and being a Muslim in the 3 provinces are two different things. Satun is a majority-Muslim province, but the people there actually speak Thai (or a dialect of it) and are culturally Thai - they just happen to be Muslim. Same goes for Muslims in Prawet (majority-Muslim district in NE Bangkok). On the other hand, the residents of the 3 southern provinces are really ethnic Malays, their language and culture bears more resemblance to Malaysia than the rest of Thailand. They just happened to be on the wrong side of the border when the British and Thais drew the lines a 100 years ago. Not all Muslims in the 3 provinces are terrorists, but from what I read it seems that many would like for their distinct culture to be recognized, rather than systematically demeaned and squashed. We could be seeing another Meech Lake moment here (if it wern't rejected, I doubt the BQ would exist today, but we can agree to disagree on this one).

So yes, bilingualism, just like any one thing, will not solve the problem. Just as bilingualism hasn't solved Canada's problems, but I don't see any evidence that it's hurt. Nor is this a problem that can be solve quickly and easily. I hate to sound all namby-pamby poltically correct, but Thailand really needs to be prepared to accept "multiculturalism" if this is ever going to work. People in the South need to be convinced that they can preserve the identity inherited from their ancestors while being loyal subjects of HM the King at the same time. But they won't be convinced so long as the central government persists with its "one-size-fits all" integration policy.

Edited July 2, 2006 by tettyan

[hammered]

If a government official talks to locals in their locl dialect the locals are more likely to have good or better feeling towards that person who has made an effort to learn about local culture than if the same government official spoke to them in any other language/dialect. Quite simple really.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Yet, in Chiang Mai, when they make roadsigns with Lanna script it's called preserving the culture!