Amnesty Thailand debunks 'myths' about capital punishment

[webfact]

Amnesty debunks 'myths'
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Amnesty International Thailand published an article titled "Five facts that you may not know about capital punishment" on its website (http://blog.amnestyusa.|org/africa/5-death-penalty-myths-debunked). Below is a summary:

Myth: The threat of execution is an effective strategy in preventing terrorism.

Fact: Those people willing to commit large-scale acts of violence aimed at inflicting terror upon a society do so knowing that they could come to serious physical harm. Therefore, they often show little or no regard for their own safety. Executions of such people often provide welcome publicity for the groups to which they belong and create martyrs around whom further support may be rallied for their cause.

Myth: The death penalty deters violent crime and makes society safer.

Fact: Evidence from around the world has shown that the death penalty has no unique deterrent effect on crime. For example, in Canada the homicide rate has fallen by 40 per cent since 1975; the death penalty was abolished for murder in 1976.

Myth: The death penalty reduces drug crime.

Fact: The use of the death penalty for drug-related crimes is in violation of international law. There is no clear evidence that the use of the death penalty for such crimes acts as a stronger deterrent than long terms of imprisonment. (In March 2008, the executive director of the UN Office on Drugs and Crime called for an end to the use of the death penalty for drug offences: "Although drugs kill, I don't believe we need to kill for drugs.")

Myth: Individuals are less likely to commit violent crimes if they know they will face capital punishment.

Fact: Many crimes are committed on the spur of the moment, leaving little opportunity for potential punishments to influence whether the crime is committed in the first place, as criminals do not believe they will be caught and held to account.

Myth:The death penalty is fine as long as the majority of the public support it.

Fact: It is understandable that populations look to their leaders to take decisive action against violence and express anger at those guilty of brutal crimes. Amnesty International recognises the right of nations to create laws. However, such laws must be formulated within the boundaries of respect for human rights.

Myth: Executions provide the most cost-effective solution to violent crime.

Fact: Human life should not be taken by the state on the grounds that it saves money. Using the death penalty to reduce the prison population is futile. For example, the United States has a prison population of about 2.2 million, but only around 3,000 prisoners are condemned to death. If the entire population of death row were executed, it would make no discernible difference to the prison population.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Amnesty-debunks-myths-30238265.html


-- The Nation 2014-07-11

[Gsxrnz]

They forgot to mention the rate of re-offending by those convicted.

The death penalty is 100% effective at preventing re-offending.

[terryp]

Myth number 13: the prisons are not full of RE-OFFENDERS

[kriswillems]

In subjects like this you can't just compare the advantages with the disadvantages.

If you start thinking logically sending people to jail often also has more disadvantages than advantages.

People often leave jail worse than they entered.

People are not sent to jail to improve only, it's a punishment.

Same is true for death penalty, it's not some kind of tool to help society to save money or to reduce the number of crimes.

It's a punishment, which gives society a feeling of justification.

It's a way to be assured they extremely bad people are for once and forever removed from it world.

In extreme cases like this I am in favor of the death penalty (if there's hard evidence and no possible doubt).

So, I agree with the points of amnesty international, but they are not relevant factors when deciding if someone should get death penalty or not.

This case makes me think about the guy that killed 2 children in Pattaya because he felt jealous the home owner took his girlfriend to a bar.

One of the children, a 6 years old was a school friend of my son. The other child was 2 years old.

I hope the one that did it will be removed from this world.

Edited July 11, 2014 by kriswillems

[UbonRatch]

5 myths written about... great article.

Let's go with the facts, or even one of them. This <deleted>er raped and killed a 13 year old girl.

FACT: He won't be mentioned again once he's been executed, AND will NEVER be a martyr

FACT: He doesn't derserve a second chance, as he'd already done it twice - three times and out!

FACT: Execution does have an affect upon costs. The myth is rubbish, and I rubbish it here now. Each and every offender costs money. Get rid of one, and you save the very expensive cost of one. That is a FACT.

I could go on, but I bet there are a lot more logical facts in opposition to the few myths presented in the OP.

[h90]

With enough checks in cases which are very clear and not political (Freedom fighter vs. Terrorist) it is right to remove the worst from the society.

[kamahele]

I agree with Amnesty International on this one. It mirrors the evidence of my own country in which the death penalty is legal is most states.

[jaltsc]

Let's face it, as is the case of most religions in this world where its adherents ignore the moral teachings, when you have a society which basis its morality and guide for daily living on the five precepts in order to live a better life, and chooses to ignore them, I doubt that the fear of the death penalty or any other "punishment" will affect how they behave on a daily basis. Morality is not something that is in their thoughts when they commit their acts of greed and self enrichment (vs. self enlightenment). How many of the following do we see broken on an ongoing basis?

1. To refrain from taking life (non-violence towards sentient life forms),
2. To refrain from taking that which is not given (not committing theft);
3. To refrain from sensual (including sexual) misconduct;
4. To refrain from lying (speaking truth always);
5. To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (specifically, drugs and alcohol).

Basically, most humans are greedy, and the most greedy have no moral compass. Thus, there is no law, threat of imprisonment or death that will deter them from satisfying their primitive animalistic needs and desires. The death penalty satisfies those who want to kill for the right reasons in what they consider a civilized manner, and yes the executed will not repeat their offences. However, it does nothing to deter certain people from committing the same barbaric acts in the future. I don't think anyone has the answer or solution to this problem, but somehow stopping hypocritical behaviors from those leaders who are entrusted with worldly and spiritual guidance would be a good start.

Edited July 11, 2014 by jaltsc

[The Deerhunter]

I agree with Amnesty International on this one. It mirrors the evidence of my own country in which the death penalty is legal is most states.

And it is so Final. They cannot say Sorry we were wrong and let you out!!! There is a lot of posthumous pardons going through in the USA now that DNA is available to disprove many executed convictions. In my own country (not USA) there are several murders over the last 30 years where there were more than two trials or trials & appeals and later they found out he did'nt do it and was released. One was released a month or two ago after DNA evidence disproved his conviction & 20 years imprisonment. But he is still alive. He wouldn't be if they still had capital punishment.

[h90]

Let's face it, as is the case of most religions in this world where its adherents ignore the moral teachings, when you have a society which basis its morality and guide for daily living on the five precepts in order to live a better life, and chooses to ignore them, I doubt that the fear of the death penalty or any other "punishment" will affect how they behave on a daily basis. Morality is not something that is in their thoughts when they commit their acts of greed and self enrichment (vs. self enlightenment). How many of the following do we see broken on an ongoing basis?

1. To refrain from taking life (non-violence towards sentient life forms),
2. To refrain from taking that which is not given (not committing theft);
3. To refrain from sensual (including sexual) misconduct;
4. To refrain from lying (speaking truth always);
5. To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (specifically, drugs and alcohol).

Basically, most humans are greedy, and the most greedy have no moral compass. Thus, there is no law, threat of imprisonment or death that will deter them from satisfying their primitive animalistic needs and desires. The death penalty satisfies those who want to kill for the right reasons in what they consider a civilized manner, and yes the executed will not repeat their offences. However, it does nothing to deter certain people from committing the same barbaric acts in the future. I don't think anyone has the answer or solution to this problem, but somehow stopping hypocritical behaviors from those leaders who are entrusted with worldly and spiritual guidance would be a good start.

All religions go and bless the guns at the military.....the sole purpose of guns is to kill.

Face it most religions are commercial enterprises......Like Greenpeace.....A bit show to hide the fact, but their higher manager are living very well......

[zydeco]

It doesn't deter? Then, somebody tell me why, when the police are chasing some guy running away from a horrific crime, the criminal will usually throw his hands up and say, "don't shoot, I surrender."

[Bob12345]

5 myths written about... great article.

Let's go with the facts, or even one of them. This <deleted>er raped and killed a 13 year old girl.

FACT: He won't be mentioned again once he's been executed, AND will NEVER be a martyr

FACT: He doesn't derserve a second chance, as he'd already done it twice - three times and out!

FACT: Execution does have an affect upon costs. The myth is rubbish, and I rubbish it here now. Each and every offender costs money. Get rid of one, and you save the very expensive cost of one. That is a FACT.

I could go on, but I bet there are a lot more logical facts in opposition to the few myths presented in the OP.

You seem to confuse FACTS with OPINIONS.

But lets go over your "facts":

1) where did you get the idea he will be a martyr when he is not executed?

2) guess that is not up to you but up to the judges and the rule of law

3) the myth is not rubbish as it has been studied already many times. The death penalty is more expensive then putting someone in jail for a very very long time. Maybe you should read up on it a bit before you "rubbish" something. Just google "cost of death penalty vs life sentence" and read the first 5-10 links that show up; you might learn something.

And please go on with logical facts because so far you are at zero...

Edited July 11, 2014 by Bob12345

[Bob12345]

It doesn't deter? Then, somebody tell me why, when the police are chasing some guy running away from a horrific crime, the criminal will usually throw his hands up and say, "don't shoot, I surrender."

Not sure how the death penalty relates to people saying "don't shoot, I surrender". Maybe it sounded logical when you thought of it.

But you should read the article again as it explains how the death penalty does not deter ("evidence from around the world has shown that the death penalty has no unique deterrent effect on crime. For example, in Canada the homicide rate has fallen by 40 per cent since 1975; the death penalty was abolished for murder in 1976") and why people might say "don't shoot, i surrender" even though they did someone that might land them the death penalty ("many crimes are committed on the spur of the moment, leaving little opportunity for potential punishments to influence whether the crime is committed in the first place, as criminals do not believe they will be caught and held to account").

[kurnell]

It ain't about deterring crime. It's about killing off the gene that makes violent criminals. The world would be far better off without the billion psychos running around.

[kleelof]

Why is deterrent even an issue?

Who would care if it is a deterrent?

Even in America, I've never seen a pro-capital punishment politician push the deterrent issue. Usually they say what I say, the world is just a better place without people who have no regard for the lives of others.

[Lancelot]

I don't have a problem with select uses of the Death Penalty- if the executed person actually committed the crime...

[Seastallion]

"However, such laws must be formulated within the boundaries of respect for human rights."

Some crimes are so anti-social, so horrific, that the perpetrator in committing them has abrogated any rights he may have had prior.

[robblok]

It doesn't deter? Then, somebody tell me why, when the police are chasing some guy running away from a horrific crime, the criminal will usually throw his hands up and say, "don't shoot, I surrender."

Not sure how the death penalty relates to people saying "don't shoot, I surrender". Maybe it sounded logical when you thought of it.

But you should read the article again as it explains how the death penalty does not deter ("evidence from around the world has shown that the death penalty has no unique deterrent effect on crime. For example, in Canada the homicide rate has fallen by 40 per cent since 1975; the death penalty was abolished for murder in 1976") and why people might say "don't shoot, i surrender" even though they did someone that might land them the death penalty ("many crimes are committed on the spur of the moment, leaving little opportunity for potential punishments to influence whether the crime is committed in the first place, as criminals do not believe they will be caught and held to account").

Just because in Canada the crime rate dropped when they stopped the death penalty does not mean you are right. Correlation does not prove causation. Every good scientist knows that and just one country.. wow big sample.

Of course it deters and his example is valid it shows that people want to live if they did not care about their life they would have let themselves get shot after a chase. So loosing your life is a big deterrent.

Fact anti capital punishment people love to twist data a lot.

Putting someone to death is expensive in the US so its more expensive all over the world. That kind of reasoning just can't be taken serious by anyone with half a brain and you expect us to buy it. Putting someone to death does not have to be more expensive it depends how its done, how long the wait is and what costs are included in the calculation. Just because the US sytem is more expensive does not make it so all over the world.

Fact

Anti capital punishment people love cherry picking (taking Canada and the US in an other example just because its in their favor. You know the world is a big place)

[UbonRatch]

5 myths written about... great article.

Let's go with the facts, or even one of them. This <deleted>er raped and killed a 13 year old girl.

FACT: He won't be mentioned again once he's been executed, AND will NEVER be a martyr

FACT: He doesn't derserve a second chance, as he'd already done it twice - three times and out!

FACT: Execution does have an affect upon costs. The myth is rubbish, and I rubbish it here now. Each and every offender costs money. Get rid of one, and you save the very expensive cost of one. That is a FACT.

I could go on, but I bet there are a lot more logical facts in opposition to the few myths presented in the OP.

You seem to confuse FACTS with OPINIONS.

But lets go over your "facts":

1) where did you get the idea he will be a martyr when he is not executed?

2) guess that is not up to you but up to the judges and the rule of law

3) the myth is not rubbish as it has been studied already many times. The death penalty is more expensive then putting someone in jail for a very very long time. Maybe you should read up on it a bit before you "rubbish" something. Just google "cost of death penalty vs life sentence" and read the first 5-10 links that show up; you might learn something.

And please go on with logical facts because so far you are at zero...

1. I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION.

2. Continued living keeps one in the news... that is a form of martyrdom, in living on and being given the opportunity to be whitewashed in future.

3. The death penalty costs $US 83 FOR THE DRUGS. It is the trials and tribulations and court costs of those who maintain innocence that cost. The death penalty does not cost more than incarceration; any right minded basic home accountant can work that one out. This guy confessed. (Argue or not whether he was forced to). You need to read more about what you read about and actually see where the costs are incurred... before throwing trivia back at me.

Zero in your opinion... which you are entitled to!!

[Seastallion]

It ain't about deterring crime. It's about killing off the gene that makes violent criminals. The world would be far better off without the billion psychos running around.

Yep. Every time one of them breeds, is just another case of someone p1$sing in the gene pool.

[Bob12345]

...

...

1. I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION.

2. Continued living keeps one in the news... that is a form of martyrdom, in living on and being given the opportunity to be whitewashed in future.

3. The death penalty costs $US 83 FOR THE DRUGS. It is the trials and tribulations and court costs of those who maintain innocence that cost. The death penalty does not cost more than incarceration; any right minded basic home accountant can work that one out. This guy confessed. (Argue or not whether he was forced to). You need to read more about what you read about and actually see where the costs are incurred... before throwing trivia back at me.

Zero in your opinion... which you are entitled to!!

1. You sure are, but also make sure you represent your opinion as an opinion and don't call your opinions "facts".

2. Thats why i daily read about every person in jail in the newspapers. Thousands of pages filled about murderers all over the country and what they ate in prison, how many times they went to the toilet, etc. This does not make any sense.

3. You had the "fact" that execution saves money, i pointed out this is false. Maybe IN THIS CASE it will be cheaper as he will not fight his conviction, but you were speaking in general and not about this particular case. So i don't have to read more about what i read, you should be more specific in your "facts" when you air them here.

[jaltsc]

Number One Reason Why Capital Punishment Is Not A Deterrent in Thailand....

Losing Face Is a Fate Worse Than Death.

As long as this is the prevailing attitude among the populace, people will continue killing for the most incomprehensible reasons.

Edited July 11, 2014 by jaltsc

[Bob12345]

...

...

Just because in Canada the crime rate dropped when they stopped the death penalty does not mean you are right. Correlation does not prove causation. Every good scientist knows that and just one country.. wow big sample.

Of course it deters and his example is valid it shows that people want to live if they did not care about their life they would have let themselves get shot after a chase. So loosing your life is a big deterrent.

Fact anti capital punishment people love to twist data a lot.

Putting someone to death is expensive in the US so its more expensive all over the world. That kind of reasoning just can't be taken serious by anyone with half a brain and you expect us to buy it. Putting someone to death does not have to be more expensive it depends how its done, how long the wait is and what costs are included in the calculation. Just because the US sytem is more expensive does not make it so all over the world.

Fact

Anti capital punishment people love cherry picking (taking Canada and the US in an other example just because its in their favor. You know the world is a big place)

Let me start of by stating i posted my comments simply because every item mentioned in the comment i reacted on was already addressed in the original piece. It seemed like someone read the headlines and then started to comment.

Correlation does not prove causation; agree. Saying that correlation does not prove causation also does not prove there is no causation.

There are probably many more samples available, but this is a newspaper article and not a paper on earlier research done.

In my view it is not a valid example (don't shoot, i surrender) as the article mentions many crimes are committed without putting much thought in it or the person does not think he will get caught. So if there is the death penalty but you strongly believe it will not apply to you, then how does it deter? And if the death penalty deters or not... Hard to say but when you look around the globe you will see that countries with harsher penalties for crimes do not have less criminality. Recently it more seems like the opposite is true.

Fact: pro-capital punishment people also love to twist data a lot.

Another fact: almost everybody loves to twist data a lot when it serves their goals.

And true, most statistics about costs are from the US. You assume that the US is unique in this while I assume that this is not the case. And I don't expect you to simply buy it but I do not see you trying to refute it with facts either. So why would you expect anybody with more than half a brain to believe you that it will be different outside of the US?

Fact:

Pro-capital punishment people love cherry picking also.

Another fact:

Most people love cherry picking.

[robblok]

...

...

Just because in Canada the crime rate dropped when they stopped the death penalty does not mean you are right. Correlation does not prove causation. Every good scientist knows that and just one country.. wow big sample.

Of course it deters and his example is valid it shows that people want to live if they did not care about their life they would have let themselves get shot after a chase. So loosing your life is a big deterrent.

Fact anti capital punishment people love to twist data a lot.

Putting someone to death is expensive in the US so its more expensive all over the world. That kind of reasoning just can't be taken serious by anyone with half a brain and you expect us to buy it. Putting someone to death does not have to be more expensive it depends how its done, how long the wait is and what costs are included in the calculation. Just because the US sytem is more expensive does not make it so all over the world.

Fact

Anti capital punishment people love cherry picking (taking Canada and the US in an other example just because its in their favor. You know the world is a big place)

Let me start of by stating i posted my comments simply because every item mentioned in the comment i reacted on was already addressed in the original piece. It seemed like someone read the headlines and then started to comment.

Correlation does not prove causation; agree. Saying that correlation does not prove causation also does not prove there is no causation.

There are probably many more samples available, but this is a newspaper article and not a paper on earlier research done.

In my view it is not a valid example (don't shoot, i surrender) as the article mentions many crimes are committed without putting much thought in it or the person does not think he will get caught. So if there is the death penalty but you strongly believe it will not apply to you, then how does it deter? And if the death penalty deters or not... Hard to say but when you look around the globe you will see that countries with harsher penalties for crimes do not have less criminality. Recently it more seems like the opposite is true.

Fact: pro-capital punishment people also love to twist data a lot.

Another fact: almost everybody loves to twist data a lot when it serves their goals.

And true, most statistics about costs are from the US. You assume that the US is unique in this while I assume that this is not the case. And I don't expect you to simply buy it but I do not see you trying to refute it with facts either. So why would you expect anybody with more than half a brain to believe you that it will be different outside of the US?

Fact:

Pro-capital punishment people love cherry picking also.

Another fact:

Most people love cherry picking.

Fact is this was a real bias article that i shredded with some points in no time.

You even agreed with me showing it was a weak article.

Thing that it cost so much in the US is the cost of the legal system and the opportunities to appeal. Those costs are far lower in other countries especially a country like Thailand. Though to be honest I don't think its that expensive to house a prisoner here in Thailand given the state of prisons here. If you take Singapore for example in cost you will see its not more expensive. So yes one should not compare the USA to Asia, you can compare it to Europe and then it still might hold true.. but not Asia or other less developed countries with less appeal possibilities.

Thing is if this article had given more data to show off then i might agree.. I like data but in this article the two points i made were fair.

What deters even more as the death penalty is a high catch rate. I wager you that in Canada the catch rate is high and that is why crime is low.

I am pro capital punishment.. but not because it might deter more people.. mainly because it has the lowest rate of re offenders. It also makes the family of victims feel better. It is punishment after all. But I feel it should only be done in those cases where there is overwhelming evidence.

[fabphil]

FACT...Once the offender has been executed..he wont do it again... FACT

[h90]

Just because in Canada the crime rate dropped when they stopped the death penalty does not mean you are right. Correlation does not prove causation. Every good scientist knows that and just one country.. wow big sample.

Of course it deters and his example is valid it shows that people want to live if they did not care about their life they would have let themselves get shot after a chase. So loosing your life is a big deterrent.

Fact anti capital punishment people love to twist data a lot.

Putting someone to death is expensive in the US so its more expensive all over the world. That kind of reasoning just can't be taken serious by anyone with half a brain and you expect us to buy it. Putting someone to death does not have to be more expensive it depends how its done, how long the wait is and what costs are included in the calculation. Just because the US sytem is more expensive does not make it so all over the world.

Fact

Anti capital punishment people love cherry picking (taking Canada and the US in an other example just because its in their favor. You know the world is a big place)

Let me start of by stating i posted my comments simply because every item mentioned in the comment i reacted on was already addressed in the original piece. It seemed like someone read the headlines and then started to comment.

Correlation does not prove causation; agree. Saying that correlation does not prove causation also does not prove there is no causation.

There are probably many more samples available, but this is a newspaper article and not a paper on earlier research done.

In my view it is not a valid example (don't shoot, i surrender) as the article mentions many crimes are committed without putting much thought in it or the person does not think he will get caught. So if there is the death penalty but you strongly believe it will not apply to you, then how does it deter? And if the death penalty deters or not... Hard to say but when you look around the globe you will see that countries with harsher penalties for crimes do not have less criminality. Recently it more seems like the opposite is true.

Fact: pro-capital punishment people also love to twist data a lot.

Another fact: almost everybody loves to twist data a lot when it serves their goals.

And true, most statistics about costs are from the US. You assume that the US is unique in this while I assume that this is not the case. And I don't expect you to simply buy it but I do not see you trying to refute it with facts either. So why would you expect anybody with more than half a brain to believe you that it will be different outside of the US?

Fact:

Pro-capital punishment people love cherry picking also.

Another fact:

Most people love cherry picking.

Fact is this was a real bias article that i shredded with some points in no time.

You even agreed with me showing it was a weak article.

Thing that it cost so much in the US is the cost of the legal system and the opportunities to appeal. Those costs are far lower in other countries especially a country like Thailand. Though to be honest I don't think its that expensive to house a prisoner here in Thailand given the state of prisons here. If you take Singapore for example in cost you will see its not more expensive. So yes one should not compare the USA to Asia, you can compare it to Europe and then it still might hold true.. but not Asia or other less developed countries with less appeal possibilities.

Thing is if this article had given more data to show off then i might agree.. I like data but in this article the two points i made were fair.

What deters even more as the death penalty is a high catch rate. I wager you that in Canada the catch rate is high and that is why crime is low.

I am pro capital punishment.. but not because it might deter more people.. mainly because it has the lowest rate of re offenders. It also makes the family of victims feel better. It is punishment after all. But I feel it should only be done in those cases where there is overwhelming evidence.

Compare with China for example, Malaysia or maybe Singapore, not the USA. Than the costs of the capital punishment will be much lower.

[Bob12345]

Fact is this was a real bias article that i shredded with some points in no time.

You even agreed with me showing it was a weak article.

Thing that it cost so much in the US is the cost of the legal system and the opportunities to appeal. Those costs are far lower in other countries especially a country like Thailand. Though to be honest I don't think its that expensive to house a prisoner here in Thailand given the state of prisons here. If you take Singapore for example in cost you will see its not more expensive. So yes one should not compare the USA to Asia, you can compare it to Europe and then it still might hold true.. but not Asia or other less developed countries with less appeal possibilities.

Thing is if this article had given more data to show off then i might agree.. I like data but in this article the two points i made were fair.

What deters even more as the death penalty is a high catch rate. I wager you that in Canada the catch rate is high and that is why crime is low.

I am pro capital punishment.. but not because it might deter more people.. mainly because it has the lowest rate of re offenders. It also makes the family of victims feel better. It is punishment after all. But I feel it should only be done in those cases where there is overwhelming evidence.

I absolutely agree that this is a weak article; and that is putting it mildly! The headline is about debunking 5 myths, but they mention 6 myths in the article (they just printed 5 out of 6 in bold). The article is supposed to be a summary of something published by anmesty, but if you actually follow the link you will notice that the original piece mentions different myths. For example the myth about costs is not mentioned at all in the original article.

And I agree with you on the catch rate. The problem in the media these days is that they all focus on capital punishment and people love jumping on the bandwagon by coming up with even more horrible ways to punish somebody. But it would help much more to focus on prevention and improving the catch rates. Unfortunately this is harder to improve/implement so they fire the director of the train company and kill accused rapists in jail. Instead they should spend energy on what causes the problems and try to tackle that.

I am anti capital punishment for the simple reason that there is no opportunity to correct the punishment when new evidence appears. In some cases it is 99% clear someone did it but years later it becomes clear they were innocent. Take for example the Puttense moordzaak or Lucia de Berk. In case of capital punishment there would be no opportunity to find the truth in these cases and in case of the Puttense moordzaak the real killer would have never be convicted of his crime.

(sorry for the non-Dutch people who do not know these cases)

[robblok]

Fact is this was a real bias article that i shredded with some points in no time.

You even agreed with me showing it was a weak article.

Thing that it cost so much in the US is the cost of the legal system and the opportunities to appeal. Those costs are far lower in other countries especially a country like Thailand. Though to be honest I don't think its that expensive to house a prisoner here in Thailand given the state of prisons here. If you take Singapore for example in cost you will see its not more expensive. So yes one should not compare the USA to Asia, you can compare it to Europe and then it still might hold true.. but not Asia or other less developed countries with less appeal possibilities.

Thing is if this article had given more data to show off then i might agree.. I like data but in this article the two points i made were fair.

What deters even more as the death penalty is a high catch rate. I wager you that in Canada the catch rate is high and that is why crime is low.

I am pro capital punishment.. but not because it might deter more people.. mainly because it has the lowest rate of re offenders. It also makes the family of victims feel better. It is punishment after all. But I feel it should only be done in those cases where there is overwhelming evidence.

I absolutely agree that this is a weak article; and that is putting it mildly! The headline is about debunking 5 myths, but they mention 6 myths in the article (they just printed 5 out of 6 in bold). The article is supposed to be a summary of something published by anmesty, but if you actually follow the link you will notice that the original piece mentions different myths. For example the myth about costs is not mentioned at all in the original article.

And I agree with you on the catch rate. The problem in the media these days is that they all focus on capital punishment and people love jumping on the bandwagon by coming up with even more horrible ways to punish somebody. But it would help much more to focus on prevention and improving the catch rates. Unfortunately this is harder to improve/implement so they fire the director of the train company and kill accused rapists in jail. Instead they should spend energy on what causes the problems and try to tackle that.

I am anti capital punishment for the simple reason that there is no opportunity to correct the punishment when new evidence appears. In some cases it is 99% clear someone did it but years later it becomes clear they were innocent. Take for example the Puttense moordzaak or Lucia de Berk. In case of capital punishment there would be no opportunity to find the truth in these cases and in case of the Puttense moordzaak the real killer would have never be convicted of his crime.

(sorry for the non-Dutch people who do not know these cases)

Your point on innocent people being executed is well taken and yes as a Dutch guy I know of those cases. However I would not have seen those as cases where death penalty should be done. I did not consider the evidence that strong. I feel for capital punishment the burdon of proof should be even higher. But in this case that it is all about the evidence is strong and he is a repeat offender.

[Bob12345]

Your point on innocent people being executed is well taken and yes as a Dutch guy I know of those cases. However I would not have seen those as cases where death penalty should be done. I did not consider the evidence that strong. I feel for capital punishment the burdon of proof should be even higher. But in this case that it is all about the evidence is strong and he is a repeat offender.

With this case you probably refer to the rapist/killer in the train. As far as i know he was a repeat offender of selling and using drugs, not of raping or murdering.

Anyways, I think we agree for 99% and the last 1% is the extreme cases you want to apply capital punishment for; I can have peace with that.

[NeverSure]

It doesn't deter? Then, somebody tell me why, when the police are chasing some guy running away from a horrific crime, the criminal will usually throw his hands up and say, "don't shoot, I surrender."

Not sure how the death penalty relates to people saying "don't shoot, I surrender". Maybe it sounded logical when you thought of it.

But you should read the article again as it explains how the death penalty does not deter ("evidence from around the world has shown that the death penalty has no unique deterrent effect on crime. For example, in Canada the homicide rate has fallen by 40 per cent since 1975; the death penalty was abolished for murder in 1976") and why people might say "don't shoot, i surrender" even though they did someone that might land them the death penalty ("many crimes are committed on the spur of the moment, leaving little opportunity for potential punishments to influence whether the crime is committed in the first place, as criminals do not believe they will be caught and held to account").

Just because in Canada the crime rate dropped when they stopped the death penalty does not mean you are right. Correlation does not prove causation. Every good scientist knows that and just one country.. wow big sample.

Of course it deters and his example is valid it shows that people want to live if they did not care about their life they would have let themselves get shot after a chase. So loosing your life is a big deterrent.

Fact anti capital punishment people love to twist data a lot.

Putting someone to death is expensive in the US so its more expensive all over the world. That kind of reasoning just can't be taken serious by anyone with half a brain and you expect us to buy it. Putting someone to death does not have to be more expensive it depends how its done, how long the wait is and what costs are included in the calculation. Just because the US sytem is more expensive does not make it so all over the world.

Fact

Anti capital punishment people love cherry picking (taking Canada and the US in an other example just because its in their favor. You know the world is a big place)

The US has the death penalty. The violent crime rate in the US has dropped by about 50% in the past 20 years.

There is no provable correlation between death penalty and the crime rate. According to the OP, the US crime rate shouldn't have dropped more than Canada's but it did.

Look at the 4th column over - number of violent crimes per 100,000 people. The United States FBI.

The death penalty is the proper way for society to prove its outrage in horrific cases.