More Eco Fraud At Uk Home Office

[fisherd3]

30-50,000 fraudulent (illegal) student visas issued a year by UK Home Office visa department, source BBC News .

[vinny]

See Schools used as visa scam front and also LANGUAGE SCHOOL VISA SCAM.

Edited June 29, 2006 by vinny

[Prakanong2005]

This has been going on for years and years.

Its a good time for a re-hash of the story though with the Home Office being very much in the limelight as of late.

I have worked at places where Zimbabwean and Cameroonian students were working on Student visa's - they are allowed to work part time but these were full time

Edited June 29, 2006 by Prakanong2005

[the scouser]

30-50,000 fraudulent (illegal) student visas issued a year by UK Home Office visa department, source BBC News .

To be fair to the Home Office, the allegation is not that their staff are implicated in this fraud. Rather that certain unscrupulous individuals are pulling the wool over their eyes by issuing bent letters.

As Prakanong 2005 says, this is hardly a new phenomenon.

Scouse.

[Prakanong2005]

It was said on the morning BBC News that 25% of those schools inspected by Home Office staff were dodgy and removed fom approved establishments.

Maybe the barrier to being approved should be made higher?

(Those of us of a certain age might snigger at the term "Approved Schools" though ) ;-)

Edited June 29, 2006 by Prakanong2005

[GU22]

Why title this thread "More Eco Fraud At Uk Home Office"?

As Scouse says, it's not the Home Office nor any of their staff who are commiting the fraud, it's bogus schools and bogus students!

[bangkokblue]

Why title this thread "More Eco Fraud At Uk Home Office"?

As Scouse says, it's not the Home Office nor any of their staff who are commiting the fraud, it's bogus schools and bogus students!

Quite, ,But under who's authoritive umbrella have they existed. Like others, i've known of the scam for years but the Home Office Did'nt ?.

[GU22]

Quite, ,But under who's authoritive umbrella have they existed.

The Language schools etc.? The Department for Education and Skills, probably.

Like others, i've known of the scam for years but the Home Office Did'nt ?.

The Home Office did. That is why the rules for a student visa have been considerably tightened up over the tears. Much to the chagrin of many, who saw a student visa as an easy way of getting their girlfriend to the UK.

This seems to be a determined and well organised fraud perpetuated by well organised criminals. More rigorous inspection of registered schools and other methods may cut down on the amount of this type of fraud, but it is impossible to eliminate it all together.

But my point being that the title of this thread accuses Home Office staff of being guilty of this fraud, when they are no such thing. With the limited staff numbers and resources they have it is impossible to thoroughly investigate every case and interview every applicant. Most cases have to be decided on the papers alone, and if the papers are right then they have to approve the visa extension. It is not the Home Office who are to blame if those papers have been obtained fraudulently.

Edited June 29, 2006 by GU22

[atlastaname]

Perhaps they shouldn't make it so difficult for people to bring their girlfriends into the UK , then , following GU22's logic , there wouldn't have been the NEED to have found underhand ways of getting them here. Its natural human behaviour to want to be in a relationship with someone , and natural for them to want to be together . Possibly it should be made a little easier to do so. ?

[bangkokblue]

GU22. I take your point, But 35-50,000? as exist today and after the clampdown. An obvious case that crime did pay. What's sophisticated about what the report covered last evening in it's simplicity.

[GU22]

Perhaps they shouldn't make it so difficult for people to bring their girlfriends into the UK , then , following GU22's logic , there wouldn't have been the NEED to have found underhand ways of getting them here. Its natural human behaviour to want to be in a relationship with someone , and natural for them to want to be together . Possibly it should be made a little easier to do so. ?

In an ideal world there would be no need for border and immigration controls, but this is not an ideal world.

To give you two examples of why some form of immigration control is necessary.

Many girls working in bars in tourist areas of Thailand want to find themselves a farang boyfriend who will sponsor them for a visit visa to his home country. Once there, the girl disappears and continues her chosen profession where she can earn in a day what it would take her over a month to earn in Thailand. Of course, this is not something that is restricted to Thailand, it happens in many other countries as well.

"So what?" one might say. "Good luck to them, they don't hurt anyone." Morality aside, one could say that is a valid argument.

However, a far more disturbing, and increasingly more common, situation is where it is the applicant who is the victim. An unsuspecting girl can be duped into coming to a western country by someone she believes to be her boyfriend, or can offer her legal work, or a place at an educational establishment, only to find herself sold into sex slavery or a dangerous and illegal sweatshop when she arrives. Men and boys too.

Human Trafficking & Modern-day Slavery

Freedom for Thai sex slave women

I am not suggesting, of course, that any one posting on, or connected with, this site is in any way involved in either of the above, nor any criminal activity.

Despite what some may see as an over vigorous visa regime, the fact remains that well over 90% of visa applications to the British embassy in Bangkok each year are approved. (source)

Of those that are refused, based on posts on this and similar forums, I feel confident in saying that in the vast majority of cases the refusal was down to a poorly prepared or unrealistic application.

Edited June 30, 2006 by GU22

[bangkokblue]

Perhaps they shouldn't make it so difficult for people to bring their girlfriends into the UK , then , following GU22's logic , there wouldn't have been the NEED to have found underhand ways of getting them here. Its natural human behaviour to want to be in a relationship with someone , and natural for them to want to be together . Possibly it should be made a little easier to do so. ?

In an ideal world there would be no need for border and immigration controls, but this is not an ideal world.

To give you two examples of why some form of immigration control is necessary.

Many girls working in bars in tourist areas of Thailand want to find themselves a farang boyfriend who will sponsor them for a visit visa to his home country. Once there, the girl disappears and continues her chosen profession where she can earn in a day what it would take her over a month to earn in Thailand. Of course, this is not something that is restricted to Thailand, it happens in many other countries as well.

"So what?" one might say. "Good luck to them, they don't hurt anyone." Morality aside, one could say that is a valid argument.

However, a far more disturbing, and increasingly more common, situation is where it is the applicant who is the victim. An unsuspecting girl can be duped into coming to a western country by someone she believes to be her boyfriend, or can offer her legal work, or a place at an educational establishment, only to find herself sold into sex slavery or a dangerous and illegal sweatshop when she arrives. Men and boys too.

Human Trafficking & Modern-day Slavery

Freedom for Thai sex slave women

I am not suggesting, of course, that any one posting on, or connected with, this site is in any way involved in either of the above, nor any criminal activity.

Despite what some may see as an over vigorous visa regime, the fact remains that well over 90% of visa applications to the British embassy in Bangkok each year are approved. (source)

Of those that are refused, based on posts on this and similar forums, I feel confident in saying that in the vast majority of cases the refusal was down to a poorly prepared or unrealistic application.

GU22. Why afford so much Weight and script towards the ' sex trade ' what in comparison with the EU angle can be considered overall of little concern in comparison. If as you say quoting Government figures the refusals are small in number and most was down to poorly prepared or unrealistic applications then are you now saying that ' weight ' is indeed used when processing certain applications with this in mind.

[GU22]

EU nationals do not need a visa to travel to, live, work or study in the UK, and vice versa. The high level of current immigration to the UK from the new EU states is a concern, but irrelevant to this discussion. I will gladly contribute to a thread on this problem should anyone wish to start one.

Do the ECOs consider whether applicants are using their sponsor merely to come to the UK and work, whether in the sex industry or elsewhere? Of course they do! Especially where applicant and sponsor have only known each other for a short time (what I refer to as an unrealistic application.)

They must also consider the bona fides of the sponsor as well when the relationship is very short. Exploitation of immigrant workers and sex slavery may be of "little concern" to some, but it is a real problem for the victims who live in squalor and constant fear; often physically abused by their masters and fed crack or heroin to keep them quiet and under control.

If efforts to protect them mean that someone can't get a visa for the girl he barfined for a couple of weeks, then, IMO, that is a small price to pay.

[atlastaname]

I don't agree. GU22 seems to be saying its better to hang 99 innocent people so as to be sure of catching the 1 guilty one . I would say its better to accept 1 guilty person may slip through the net if it means 99 genuine cases are not penalised.

[GU22]

I'm not saying that at all.

Genuine couples who are in a long standing relationship will eventually get a visa, even if there have been previous breaches of the immigration rules such as working and never studying whilst on a student visa. You and your boyfriend are living proof of this.

You seem to be saying that you don't care if thousands of innocent young people, male and female, are subject to forced drug addiction and regular rape, as long as your boyfriend can come and go as he pleases.

Shame on you.

Edited July 1, 2006 by GU22

[atlastaname]

I'm not saying that at all. READ what i wrote.

For some reason you seem to have a long standing thing about sex slaves in the UK . Yes it happens , but its far rarer than you seem to think. And NO i don't approve of it in case you are wondering.

And YES i do think that genuine couples , mine included, should be free to come and go as they please (as indeed mine is much to your obvious annoyance) and not be penalised on initial application on the off chance that they are being recruited as sex slaves. IF indeed this practise does really exist beyond the medias imagination , the government should come up with another way of stopping it without interfering with genuine couples. That should be their problem , not mine.

[bangkokblue]

EU nationals do not need a visa to travel to, live, work or study in the UK, and vice versa. The high level of current immigration to the UK from the new EU states is a concern, but irrelevant to this discussion. I will gladly contribute to a thread on this problem should anyone wish to start one.

Do the ECOs consider whether applicants are using their sponsor merely to come to the UK and work, whether in the sex industry or elsewhere? Of course they do! Especially where applicant and sponsor have only known each other for a short time (what I refer to as an unrealistic application.)

They must also consider the bona fides of the sponsor as well when the relationship is very short. Exploitation of immigrant workers and sex slavery may be of "little concern" to some, but it is a real problem for the victims who live in squalor and constant fear; often physically abused by their masters and fed crack or heroin to keep them quiet and under control.

If efforts to protect them mean that someone can't get a visa for the girl he barfined for a couple of weeks, then, IMO, that is a small price to pay.

GU22. I also think it a shame that you paint such a sorrowful picture and one of an old hat at that. The fact is a considerable amount of weight is afforded with this in mind regardless of age and/or time in relationship, unless of course your loaded and the other half has multiple assetts. In reality one should be well prepared in documentation and especially in mind should an interview be called for. Proving that your girl/boy friend will be up to no good can be a strong test on their character at interview.

[GU22]

Atlastaname and Bangkokblue, , genuine couples are, to all intents and purposes, free to come and go as they please; once they have shown themselves to be a genuine couple. The burden of proof is on the applicant, but it is not set very high, on the balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt. The ECO has to separate the genuine applicant from the non genuine, the genuine sponsor from the non genuine. Mostly they get it right, sometimes they unfortunately get it wrong.

But we will have to agree to disagree on this. I feel that efforts should be made to halt the exploitation and abuse and torture of victims conned into coming to the UK and then put to work in sweat shops or other dangerous employment or in brothels (it's not just sex slaves, as I made clear at the start). You, Gentlemen, don't.

Bangkokblue, you say

I also think it a shame that you paint such a sorrowful picture and one of an old hat at that.

Yes it is a sorrowful picture, it is old hat in the sense that it has been going on for a long time. That doesn't mean it should be ignored and nothing done to stop it.

Atlastaname, you say

IF indeed this practise does really exist beyond the medias imagination , the government should come up with another way of stopping it without interfering with genuine couples. That should be their problem , not mine.

It's not your problem. Lucky you, lucky me too. Neither of us have been affected by this. Thousands have, but that's not your problem. So, just pass by on the other side, avert your gaze and ignore it.

And I am not annoyed that your partner has his visa, even though any difficulties he may have had in obtaining it were not my problem.

[bangkokblue]

GU22. Ok, Whilst still on the same subject spare a little thought for all those 'young' Thai lassie's being exploited and used as a sex slave married to fat, ugly and hairy/les farang in which catergory i must fall, ( love in my case ) no doubt the ECO's have that interest in mind. In fact suh is my guilt i still leave a 500 bht note on the bedside cabinet, cheap i know, but she's getting older. Some folk really should stay home and indoors it's an unjust world out there.

[GU22]

Bangkokblue, please tell me what relevance a marriage freely entered into by two consenting adults has to the subject we were discussing.

Hopefully you were pissed when you posted, in which case perhaps you should consider waiting until you are sober before posting again.

I doubt very much that your marriage really is as you describe above, but if it is then your wife has my deepest sympathy.

[Jersey_UK]

Fraud at the Home Office? Certainly incompetence, but that is so normal no one get excited about stuff like this anymore.

Whether it is actually Fraud is a good question, certainly it could be argued that as the Home Office have known about this for years and done nothing that they are guilty of wilful blindness at the very least, and potentially they have colluded in the Scam by deliberately looking the other way as policy, in order to keep the numbers of immigrants up who fill the low paid jobs that no one else would do IF they had a choice. (for many economic reasons it IS better to have illegal immigrants than legal ones).

Certainly in my job if I had fulfilled the Home Office role in this Scam I would be looking at a Prison Sentence..........but they have the slight advantage over me in that they enforce the laws and they control the Police. One of the advantages of living in a police state is you do not have to worry about anyone else catching you. Mai Pen Rai as they say..........

[atlastaname]

GU22 there is no doubt that you are absolutely genuine in your beliefs and to an extent you make some very good points. The problem I and others have is that in their efforts to "protect " the "vulnerable" genuine cases are suffering sometimes , as in my case , for well over a year. It is a shame they can't protect the vulnerable whilst somehow (and i have suggested before a checklist would make it all factual but i know you don't like this idea) not penalising couples who just want to be together. And in the UK , not in Thailand.

Its a tough one and unfortunately not one that is high on the governments list to solve , especially in the current hysterical media lead campaign against immigration of all kinds. And i'm gald to see Jersey making the comment about the UK being a police state. I have to say i agree with that , often thinking back to my young days in the 70's when virtually everything was legal. Unfortunately Britain is very different now ..