British Citizenship are my children entitled?

[ozsamurai]

I am a 1st generation Australian, born there. I received my British passport through descent from my father. Now my children have been born in Thailand are they entitled to hold a British passport as well. They have an Australian and Thai one. A recent post just made me wonder on this.

Oz

[AnotherOneAmerican]

If you can prove you spent 3 years living in England, yes (NI payments, passport stamps, school records, medical records, etc.).

If not, you can apply using your fathers BC (their grandfather) if he was born in the UK.

http://britishexpats.com/wiki/British_Citizenship_by_Descent

"How can I get British citizenship for my child?

If your child is not automatically a British citizen, then there are three options, usually, to get the child British citizenship:

Section 3(2) Registration The child can be registered as a British citizen if:

a parent is a British citizen by descent at the time of the child's birth; and

the child has a grandparent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent when the parent was born. (this effectively limits this kind of registration to the second generation born overseas); and

the British parent has lived in the United Kingdom or a British Overseas Territory for a period of 3 years in which absences do not exceed 270 days, (this does not apply if the child has no other nationality at birth); and

application is made while he is a minor (under no circumstances can this be extended). [see Clause 43, Borders Citizenship and Nationality Act 2009, effective from 13 January 2010. Prior to this date, the age limit was 12 months, extendable to 6 years in some cases.]

The child will, if registered, become a British citizen by descent."

Edited July 19, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[MANICMINER]

No, because you got your citizenship by descent. you may be able to get them registered as British citizens, but they do not have automatic right to it.

[ozsamurai]

so how does one go about 'registering them' as British citizens? Is there a link anyone could point out to do some study on the ins and outs.

Oz

[beano2274]

As Manic above has stated there is no chance, as you got it by descent and not by being Born in the UK.

[beano2274]

British citizenship - born on or after 1 January 1983

Being born in the UK doesn’t automatically give you British citizenship.

If you were born on or after 1 January 1983, you will be a British citizen if your mother or father was either:

• a British citizen when you were born
• ‘settled’ in the UK when you were born

In most cases you will be a British citizen if your mother or father was born or naturalised in the UK.

If you were born before July 2006, your father’s British nationality will pass to you only if he was married to your mother at any time.

https://www.gov.uk/british-passport-eligibility

Edited July 19, 2014 by beano2274

[AnotherOneAmerican]

As Manic above has stated there is no chance, as you got it by descent and not by being Born in the UK.

And as I posted, with a link, there is a chance using the grandfather's BC.

[innerspace]

Not sure about aoa's post, never heard anything like that but doesn't necessarily mean its wrong.

Manics post is correct from my previous research (I have a British daughter born here).

Child of a born british citizen is automatically entitled to british citizenship.

Child of british citizen by descent is not entitled, but previous 2 posts suggest may be possible case by case.

But note than current immigration policies in uk are not in your favour, everything is stricter plus long delays after many passport offices closed.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[beano2274]

As Manic above has stated there is no chance, as you got it by descent and not by being Born in the UK.

And as I posted, with a link, there is a chance using the grandfather's BC.

There is a major difference between

British by Birth and British by descent.

Acquisition of British citizenship

British Citizenship can be acquired in the following ways:

1. lex soli: By birth in the UK to a parent who is a British citizen at the time of the birth, or to a parent who is settled in the UK
2. lex sanguinis: By birth abroad, which constitutes "by descent" if one of the parents is a British citizen otherwise than by descent (for example by birth, adoption, registration or naturalisation in the UK). British citizenship by descent is only transferable to one generation down from the parent who is a British citizen otherwise than by descent, if the child is born abroad.
3. By naturalisation
4. By registration
5. By adoption

For nationality purposes, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man are generally treated as if they were part of the UK^{[citation needed]}.

Leaflets and advice that describe how British citizenship and other kinds of British nationality can be held, applied for, or renounced are available from the Home Office UK Border Agency.^[2] Information is also available from the Home Office on provisions for reducing statelessness.^[3]

British Citizenship by descent

'British Citizenship by descent' is the category for the children born outside the UK to a British citizen. Rules for acquiring British citizenship by descent depend on when the person was born.

From 1983

A child born outside the UK on or after 1 January 1983 automatically acquires British citizenship by descent if either parent is a British citizen other than by descent at the time of the birth.

• At least one parent must be British otherwise than by descent.
• As a general rule, an unmarried father cannot pass on British citizenship automatically in the case of a child born before 1 July 2006. If the parents marry subsequent to the birth the child normally becomes a British citizen at that point if legitimated by the marriage and the father was eligible to pass on British citizenship. If the unmarried British father was domiciled in a country that treated (at the date of birth of the child born before 1 July 2006) a child born to unmarried parents in the same way as a child born to married parents, then the father passed on British citizenship automatically to his child, even though the child was born before 1 July 2006 to unmarried parents.^[7] Such countries are listed in the UK Home Office Immigration and Passport Services publication "Legitimation and Domicile".^[8] Failing that, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.
• Where the parent is a British citizen by descent additional requirements apply. In the most common scenario, the parent is normally expected to have lived in the UK for three consecutive years and apply to register the child as a British citizen while the child is a minor (clause 43, Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, effective from 13 January 2010). Prior to this date, the age limit was 12 months.
• For British nationality purposes, the Isle of Man and Channel Islands are treated as though they were part of the UK.
• Before 21 May 2002, British Overseas Territories were treated as 'overseas' for nationality purposes. The exceptions were Gibraltar, British citizens under the British Nationality Act 1981; and the Falkland Islands, granted British citizenship following the Falklands War under the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983. Children born on or after 21 May 2002 in a British Overseas Territory (other than the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus) are entitled to British citizenship on the same basis as UK-born children.
• Children born overseas to parents on Crown Service are normally granted British citizenship otherwise than by descent, so their status is the same as it would have been had they been born in the UK.
• In exceptional cases, the Home Secretary may register a child of parents who are British by descent as a British citizen under discretionary provisions, for example if the child is stateless.

Edited July 19, 2014 by beano2274

[ozsamurai]

Found some info....

2 British citizenship by descent

British citizenship may descend to one generation born abroad. So a child born abroad

to a parent who is British otherwise than by descent will automatically be British by

descent.

The exception is

•

A child born before 1 July 2006 illegitimately to a British father and non-British

mother. They will have to register under section 3 (1).

Children born to parents who are British by descent have no automatic claim to British

citizenship. Applications may be made through entitlement under section 3 (2) or

section 3 (5) if children satisfy the requirements for registration. Or they may apply at

the Home Secretary’s discretion under section 3 (1) if there are compelling or

exceptional reasons for registering a child as British.

Children born abroad to British parents – Section 3 (2) or section 3 (5) application.

This category applies to children who

•

Were born outside the United Kingdom. Or

•

If born after 21 May 2002, were born outside any of the British overseas

territories (listed below) and

•

In either case, were born to parents who are British citizens by descent (see

“Automatic acquisition of British citizenship” on page 6).

The United Kingdom means England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the

Channel

Island and the Isle of Man.

For the purposes of this guide, and form MN1, the British overseas territories are:

Anguilla; Bermuda; British Antarctic Territory; British Indian Ocean Territory;

Cayman Islands; Falkland Islands; Gibraltar; Montserrat; Pitcairn, Henderson,

Ducie

& Oeno Islands; St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha; South Georgia

and the South Sandwich Islands (except from 3 October 1985 until 4 December

2001); Turks and Caicos Islands; Virgin Islands

.

Children coming under this category have an entitlement to register provided they can

satisfy the requirements under either section 3 (2) or section 3 (5).

Section 3(2)

To qualify under this section, the parent who is British by descent must have been born

to a parent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent (or if that person died,

then they would have been a British citizen otherwise than by descent but for their

death).

The British citizen by descent parent must have lived in the UK (or, if the child was born

on or after 21 May 2002, in a British overseas territory) for a continuous period of 3

11

years at any time before the child’s birth. During that period they should not have

absences exceeding 270 days. The application must be made whilst the child is under 18

years of age.

The 3 year residence requirement for the parent does not need to be met if the

child is stateless.

An example of a child who qualifies under section 3(2) is as follows:

•

The child’s maternal grandfather was born in the United Kingdom in 1949.

•

The child’s mother was born in France in 1970 (and is a British citizen by

descent). She lived in the United Kingdom from September 1989 to September

1992 (and was not outside the United Kingdom for more than 270 days during

that time).

•

The child, born in France in 2009, is not a British citizen but can be registered

under section 3 (2)

It is important to note that a child registered under this section will be a British citizen

by descent and unable to pass British citizenship automatically by descent to any of their

children born abroad. A child registered under section 3(5) (see below) will be a

British citizen otherwise than by descent: any of their children born abroad will be

British by descent. If the family are living abroad, parents will need to decide whether to

apply under this section. Or, if there is a possibility that they may return to live in the

UK or a British overseas territory before the child reaches age 15, whether to wait and

apply under section 3 (5). You should indicate that you are aware of this by ticking

section 3.16 of the Form MN1.

Section 3 (5).

To qualify under this section the child and their mother and father should have lived in

the UK (or British overseas territory (see page 8) if born after 21 May 2002) for a three

year period ending with the date the application is received. And the child and their

parents should be physically present in the UK or a British overseas territory at the start

of that period.

The child and their parents should not have been absent from the UK (or the British

overseas territories if appropriate) for more than 270 days during the 3 year residential

period. There is no discretion to disregard absences greater than 270 days.

If the parents’ marriage or civil partnership has ended or they are legally separated then

only the child and one parent has to satisfy the residence requirement.

Both parents must consent to the child being registered as a British citizen. If one of the

parents has died then only the consent of the surviving parent is required.

A child registered under this section will be a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

Seems as clear as mud... will have to read into it

[sustento]

so how does one go about 'registering them' as British citizens? Is there a link anyone could point out to do some study on the ins and outs.

Oz

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/nationality-instructions-volume-1

[7by7]

From British citizenship basics:-

There are basically two forms of British citizenship; British by descent or British otherwise than by descent.

British by descent means that you inherited your British nationality from one or both of your parents; usually because you were born outside the UK or a qualifying territory.

British nationality can only descend one generation, so if you are British by descent then your children will only be British if they qualify in their own right by being born in the UK or a qualifying territory; unless their other parent is British otherwise than by descent, in which case see below.

British otherwise than by descent means that you are British in your own right; usually because you were born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one of your parents is British or is legally settled in the UK or the qualifying territory where you were born, or by some other means such as naturalisation.

If you are British otherwise than by descent then your children will be British no matter where they are born and no matter the nationality of the other parent.

However, as already mentioned, it may be possible to register the child as British; see Chapter 9: registering minors at discretion (nationality instructions).

[ozsamurai]

a parent is a British citizen by descent at the time of the child's birth; and

the child has a grandparent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent when the parent was born. (this effectively limits this kind of registration to the second generation born overseas);

and

the British parent has lived in the United Kingdom or a British Overseas Territory for a period of 3 years in which absences do not exceed 270 days, (this does not apply if the child has no other nationality at birth);

For the purposes of this guide, and form MN1, the British overseas territories are:

Anguilla; Bermuda; British Antarctic Territory; British Indian Ocean Territory;

Cayman Islands; Falkland Islands; Gibraltar; Montserrat; Pitcairn, Henderson,

Ducie

& Oeno Islands; St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha; South Georgia

and the South Sandwich Islands (except from 3 October 1985 until 4 December

2001); Turks and Caicos Islands; Virgin Islands

So either I move to the UK or its territories for 3 years or more or no go. What kind of visa would I be aiming at for my family then?

Oz

[AnotherOneAmerican]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/318564/Guide_MN1_-_June_2014.pdf

Section 3(2)-3(5) clearly states.

Grandparent British other than by decent

+Parent British by decent with 3 years continuous residence in UK

entitles child to be British by descent.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

So Oz

Have you spent 3 years in GB or a GB territory?

Alternatively,

Is there time for you to spend 3 years in GB or a GB territory before your kid is 18?

Finally,

If you became a GB resident, you could apply from within GB, right away.

Edited July 19, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[beano2274]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/318564/Guide_MN1_-_June_2014.pdf

Section 3(2)-3(5) clearly states.

Grandparent British other than by decent

+Parent British by decent with 3 years continuous residence in UK

entitles child to be British by descent.

Reading the OP Posts he has never been to the UK so the second part

+Parent British by decent with 3 years continuous residence in UK

does not apply

[AnotherOneAmerican]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/318564/Guide_MN1_-_June_2014.pdf

Section 3(2)-3(5) clearly states.

Grandparent British other than by decent

+Parent British by decent with 3 years continuous residence in UK

entitles child to be British by descent.

Reading the OP Posts he has never been to the UK so the second part

+Parent British by decent with 3 years continuous residence in UK

does not apply

As I just posted, he may have time to get the 3 years done before the kid is 18.

Or he could just move the entire family to the UK and apply right away, as a UK resident.

[7by7]

ozsamurai,

This topic is stating to get unnecessarily complicated.

What, exactly, is it you want to achieve?

Simply British nationality for your children in case it may be useful to them at some future date?

British nationality and passports for your children because you want to move to or visit the UK or another EEA state with your family without having to get visas for them?

Something else?

To be honest, apart from settling in or visiting the UK or EEA, I can see no advantages which a British passport gives them which they don't already have from their Australian ones.

[7by7]

<snip>

Or he could just move the entire family to the UK and apply right away, as a UK resident.

To do so, all members of his family who are not currently British would need settlement visas and so would need to meet all the requirements; including the financial one.

[ozsamurai]

I do have time to spend 3 years in the UK or its territories, this is why at this stage I am planning. My father (born Oldham) is not in good shape and we will move to Australia very soon to take care of him in his last years. When we are in a situation to 'move on', we would consider the UK. I really have no longing to come back to Thailand, and to be honest Australia leaves a lot to be desired. My wife (Thai) by the time we plan to move on should have made application for and approved as an Australian Citizen. The children are only 2 & 4 at this stage. Yes, I have spent some time in the UK, but only a few months, visiting relatives etc..

Oz

[beano2274]

I do have time to spend 3 years in the UK or its territories, this is why at this stage I am planning. My father (born Oldham) is not in good shape and we will move to Australia very soon to take care of him in his last years. When we are in a situation to 'move on', we would consider the UK. I really have no longing to come back to Thailand, and to be honest Australia leaves a lot to be desired. My wife (Thai) by the time we plan to move on should have made application for and approved as an Australian Citizen. The children are only 2 & 4 at this stage. Yes, I have spent some time in the UK, but only a few months, visiting relatives etc..

Oz

Your wife would still require a visa for the UK, as 7by7 stated above, even if she has Australian Citizenship

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Your wife would still require a visa for the UK, as 7by7 stated above, even if she has Australian Citizenship

The only real requirement Oz needs to fulfil, is himself living in the UK for 3 years before the kids are 18.

No actual need for the wife or kids to be with him.

But if his wife and kids did accompany him (only 70k savings in the bank for the settlement visa).

It appears he could register the kids as UK citizens the day he and his family landed in the UK.

Sorry that was wrong info, after reading Section 3(5) more carefully,

If claiming under 3(5), 3 years spent in UK after birth of children.

Both parents and children need to be in the UK for 3 years before registration, but as a bonus, the children will be given citizenship as 'British other than by decent', so British by birth, and can hand on their citizenship.

Edited July 19, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[MANICMINER]

I do have time to spend 3 years in the UK or its territories, this is why at this stage I am planning. My father (born Oldham) is not in good shape and we will move to Australia very soon to take care of him in his last years. When we are in a situation to 'move on', we would consider the UK. I really have no longing to come back to Thailand, and to be honest Australia leaves a lot to be desired. My wife (Thai) by the time we plan to move on should have made application for and approved as an Australian Citizen. The children are only 2 & 4 at this stage. Yes, I have spent some time in the UK, but only a few months, visiting relatives etc..

Oz

In your post (no.10), does it not state that the 3 years must be BEFORE the child is born. So you could be wasting your time. I would check before making any plans.

[ozsamurai]

I have no desire to leave the wife and kids for 3 years. I actually like them (most of the time). I can meet the financials, what is a settlement visa...here we go again.....

Oz

[7by7]

See UK settlement visa basics.

Note that if your wife has an Australian passport then she will be exempt from the English requirement for her initial visa, and if applying in Australia the TB certificate requirement as well.

I am not convinced that registering your children as British is just a simple matter of them moving to the UK or you living there for three years.

I suggest that you read all the UKVI information linked to very carefully before making any decision.

Edited July 19, 2014 by 7by7

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I have no desire to leave the wife and kids for 3 years. I actually like them (most of the time). I can meet the financials, what is a settlement visa...here we go again.....

Oz

About $2,000 dollars for the VISAs and $120,000 in banked savings.

[7by7]

The financial requirement for settlement can be met by income, savings or a combination of both.

See here.

[ozsamurai]

You guys are great thank you... as I said I don't have a problem on the financials, more than enough in savings. Its more a case of the logistics.. I'll now look into the settlement visa with a view point of an Australian citizen,(ie wife & children only) to see where that leaves me.

Oz

[AnotherOneAmerican]

You guys are great thank you... as I said I don't have a problem on the financials, more than enough in savings. Its more a case of the logistics.. I'll now look into the settlement visa with a view point of an Australian citizen,(ie wife & children only) to see where that leaves me.

Oz

You mean settlement VISA from the viewpoint of a British citizen with an Australian wife and children.

[ozsamurai]

Well what I mean is that as the wife and kids are 'Aussies', I will look into their migration with me as a POM.....

Oz