Lpg & Ngv Fuel.

[Citra]

Is that the only place an LPG tank could be mounted on a Fortuner?

No, it could go on the roof as well.

[sumrit]

you can do conversion to NGV with a diesel engine. called DDF (Diesel Dual Fuel). about the same price for conversion of petrol cars. according to my list here, its 60k for 70lit tank installation and 65k for 100lit tank.

What list and info have you got on DDF conversions in Thailand?

[monty]

he instructed that I should flip to petrol for 1-2 kms every 50-70 kms of driving,

Totally unnecessary IMO.

The engine gets lubricated by the engine oil, this does not change when driving on LPG.

The only parts getting lubricated by the fuel are the valves. Putting in a valve lubrication system (oil injector on the inlet manifold) is very cheap and normally included even with the cheapest LPG installations. You normally use two stroke oil, which will keep the valves lubricated and slightly cooler, and once inside the combustion chamber the oil will burn cleanly just like in a 2 stroke engine.

The amount injected is very low, since unlike in a two stroke engine, it only lubricates the valves, and thus adds very little to the operating costs.

Keep the little oiltank religiously filled up, and your valves should last as long or longer as when driving on regular fuel!

It is however indeed advised to run your engine on petrol every so often, but for a whole other reason, namely to keep your fuel system working. Not running the fuel system (i.e. fuel pumps, injection/carburation) for a few months would render it completely inoperable!!! Petrol has the habit of leaving a rubbery deposit when evaporating, these deposits can easily clog a fuel system.

Running the engine for half a fuel tank on petrol every 3 to 5 gas tanks removes these deposits. Then fill up with fresh petrol...

[wimster]

Thanks! Can I ask you how the driving is compared to on petrol? Also how does the cost per km on NGV comes out compared to petrol?

Have you been able to do this, on a Civic 1.8? I have a 2 year old one and considering it also.

What was the costs for the LPG conversion?

Thanks.

wimster, i have decided to go with NGV since its more stable than LPG on price. seems like ngv is the better option for the future. prices in chiang mai set at 10.35 per kilo for the next two years guaranteed. bkk : 8.50 per kilo. conversion price is 61k for a 100lit tank with a discount of 5k. so i pay 56k. there is a queue to fit it at S.O. NGV chiang mai and we got the date at 18th of feb for the conversion. collect car on 21st. they do all the paperwork. something to do with registering an NGV car with the government. only problem is the lack of refueling stations but seems like some Jiffy stations would start selling NGV under the PTT brand.

Edited January 8, 2008 by wimster

[percy2]

It would be nice if anyone had a Baht / Km comparison for LPG , NGV , Petrol and Diesel.

Car for car that is.

Cheers

[hbert]

I own a 2003 Honda CRV.

Is it anybody out there that have converted one to LPG/NGV and can share the experience...?

What would a conversion to LPG do to the second hand value...?

Cheers

[percy2]

What would a conversion to LPG do to the second hand value...?

Cheers

I would imagine it will increase it.

Cheers

[monty]

I own a 2003 Honda CRV.

Is it anybody out there that have converted one to LPG/NGV and can share the experience...?

What would a conversion to LPG do to the second hand value...?

Cheers

It's advisable on modern engines like yours to install a LPG injection system. More expensive, but the mixture is more correctly controlled all the way through the rpm range. Very little power loss, resulting in very little increase in consumption!

I paid 40,000 Baht for a 6 cilinder cefiro, on the 4 cilinder engines (like yours) the base price is 33,000 Baht, with extra for the optional bigger tanks or donut tanks.

[monty]

It would be nice if anyone had a Baht / Km comparison for LPG , NGV , Petrol and Diesel.

Car for car that is.

Cheers

I have 3 vehicles on LPG currently.

VW caravelle (5 cilinder 2500cc) On petrol 6 Baht/km, on LPG 2 Baht/km

Nissan cefiro (6 cilinder 2000cc) On petrol 4.3 Baht/km, on LPG 1.3 Baht/km

Volvo 245 (4 cilinder, 2300cc) on petrol 4.6 Baht/km, on LPG 1.6 Baht/km

All cars above are ideal for LPG conversion, because the burn quite a lot of fuel. The Volvo is old and heavy, the Caravelle is very heavy with a relative small engine, and the Nissan is OK on highways, but drinks a lot in the city since the engine needs to get pushed and revved high to get some acceleration!

The Caravelle and the Volvo both have the old style vacuum controlled LPG systems, the Nissan a new high tech injection system.

Above prices are calculated for simplicity at a petrol price of 33 Baht/liter (not sure what the actual current price is) and LPG at 10 Baht/liter (I actually pay 9.69 Baht/liter, but other places are more expensive).

[percy2]

It would be nice if anyone had a Baht / Km comparison for LPG , NGV , Petrol and Diesel.

Car for car that is.

Cheers

I have 3 vehicles on LPG currently.

VW caravelle (5 cilinder 2500cc) On petrol 6 Baht/km, on LPG 2 Baht/km

Nissan cefiro (6 cilinder 2000cc) On petrol 4.3 Baht/km, on LPG 1.3 Baht/km

Volvo 245 (4 cilinder, 2300cc) on petrol 4.6 Baht/km, on LPG 1.6 Baht/km

All cars above are ideal for LPG conversion, because the burn quite a lot of fuel. The Volvo is old and heavy, the Caravelle is very heavy with a relative small engine, and the Nissan is OK on highways, but drinks a lot in the city since the engine needs to get pushed and revved high to get some acceleration!

The Caravelle and the Volvo both have the old style vacuum controlled LPG systems, the Nissan a new high tech injection system.

Above prices are calculated for simplicity at a petrol price of 33 Baht/liter (not sure what the actual current price is) and LPG at 10 Baht/liter (I actually pay 9.69 Baht/liter, but other places are more expensive).

Thats a good start.

It should be the best way to do a real comparison. I would imagine that the Fortuner is the car that we might have the most chance of having one vehicle that runs on all four fuels.

Where did the tank go in the Caravelle, behind the back seats or somewhere more imaginative?

Cheers

[monty]

Where did the tank go in the Caravelle, behind the back seats or somewhere more imaginative?

Our Caravelle was the 11 seat version (unlike the more common 5 seat VIP version), took out the back bench, put the tank there (a big 116 liter one), so we now have a 7 seat van with huge luggage compartment.

None of the 11-seaters take 11 persons including luggage anyway, unless you stick everything on the roof!

[percy2]

None of the 11-seaters take 11 persons including luggage anyway, unless you stick everything on the roof!

Does that include the driver his wife and sundry children that normally take up the front seats

Cheers

PS really am interested if we have TV members who have Fortuners powered by the 4 options.

What is the B/Km generally for the Petrol and Diesel ones?

[Plus]

Monty, where did you do your conversions, and where to you take your cars for service?

Do official serive centers like Nissan or Volvo know what to do with you LPGs?

Actually a list of recommended garages would be useful. There are lots of dodgy "hole in the fence" LPG conversion shops on every corner, are there any really big ones with guarantees and stuff?

[hbert]

I would also be interested in reliable conversion shops in Pattaya area....?

[monty]

The best one in Pattaya (which did the Nissan conversion) is on Sukhumvit, North Pattaya.

When coming from Naklua driving towards North Pattaya you'll see two fuel stations on your left side, about 1 km before Mini Siam.

The first one is a JET (yellow sign), the second one, just next to the JET, has only a Thai name (green colored signs).

The second one has a carshop doing the conversions. Very happy with the high quality job they did. 1 year warranty on the complete system, and 3 years on the tank!

The same fuel station also sells LPG at 9.69 Baht/liter.

Do official service centers like Nissan or Volvo know what to do with you LPGs?

No problem, LPG installations are maintenance free anyway, the rest of the engine gets serviced as per the user manual.

I'm not sure though about warranties, guess you risk losing the warranty when converting to LPG. Better inform yourself at your garage.

[madjbs]

Do you know of any BKK ones monty?

[monty]

Some pictures of the conversion the above mentioned shop did:

The gas tank in the boot

The little switch to change over between petrol and gas. Switchover is instantaneous between the fuels. Also has a gas level indicator.

Here you see one of the two injection valve banks, feeding 3 cylinders. The second set of injectors is hidden at the other side of the engine.

[Plus]

Do official service centers like Nissan or Volvo know what to do with you LPGs?

No problem, LPG installations are maintenance free anyway, the rest of the engine gets serviced as per the user manual.

I'm not sure though about warranties, guess you risk losing the warranty when converting to LPG. Better inform yourself at your garage.

I was talking about LPG warranty, but now you say it's maintanance free, so it must not be an issue.

I also understand that the engine doesn't require any change in regular service, which is a good news.

Btw, do they convert turbo engines to LPG as well? Does it work with turbos?

[monty]

Do you know of any BKK ones monty?

Sorry, no idea...

Btw, do they convert turbo engines to LPG as well? Does it work with turbos?

Should be no problem, but you'll need the injection version I would think.

I know of people in Europe actually increasing the boost level of the turbo after converting to LPG, without problems due to the fact that the octane number of LPG is much higher then petrol (110 versus 91 or 95).

You can also increase power by advancing the ignition, again, no pinging risk due to the high octne number of LPG.

Both modifications would create problems when switching to petrol, so not advised!

[Plus]

Both modifications would create problems when switching to petrol, so not advised!

Good point!

[Gary A]

I was simply not interested in an LPG conversion because there were no LPG stations in my area. Now I am of the opinion that LPG is indeed here to stay and is becoming much more popular. There are now at least four new LPG stations just south of Muang Loei. One is already open, another is nearly ready to open and two more are being built. It's interesting that there are no gasoline or diesel pumps at the one that is already open. Unfortunately I have yet to see a customer there.

The next trip to the Ford dealer, I will ask them if there is any danger of voiding my warranty if I convert.

[Plus]

All "experts" agree that NGV/CNG is the way forward, not LPG, but the market is clearly dominated by LPG, even if prices are unstable and they blow up from time to time. I guess if it goes wrong, you can convert to CNG, when they build enough stations.

Currently taxis complain that they spend an hour in each shift trying to fill their tanks. That's scary.

[monty]

All "experts" agree that NGV/CNG is the way forward, not LPG, but the market is clearly dominated by LPG, even if prices are unstable and they blow up from time to time. I guess if it goes wrong, you can convert to CNG, when they build enough stations.

Currently taxis complain that they spend an hour in each shift trying to fill their tanks. That's scary.

Yep, waiting 15-20 minutes to get your tank full (actual filling time) would drive me nuts!

Even though I have a CNG fuel station behind my corner now, I still wouldn't consider it.

2nd often forgotten disadvantage of CNG is the poor range you get out of a tank (bit over 200 km for Vios, a fuel guzzling Volvo might not even get 140 km!)

[Plus]

20 min is just to fill the tank, waiting in lines is a lot longer, I suppose.

Every Saturday I drive pass a long line of taxis waiting for refuel on Sukha 3, I'm not surprised if they spend an hour each day (I drive there on Sats only).

[monty]

LPG is easier.

The station in Pattaya I fill up at is very popular as somehow they are cheaper then anywhere else.

Never had to wait more the 5 minutes in the line, and actual filling adds another 3 minutes to that!

[qualtrough]

Thought I would report my experience so far with an LPG conversion since it has been about 3 months now.

I have an old Land Rover with a 2.25 petrol engine. The conversion cost 17,000 Baht and I had a 90 L tank put in, which is good for 72 L of usable gas. I have carefully recorded mileage and to my surprise I actually obtain slightly better mileage with LPG, although I have heard that there is usually a 10% loss. Why that would be I have no idea, but I will take it. My engine use to run on when shut off hot, which is not unusual for this engine due to hotspots, but does not do that with LPG, which is very nice. My engine always runs smooth, but I think it runs a bit smoother on LPG. Slightly less power, but I don't think you would even notice that on more powerful engines. In my case it is quite acceptable. My fuel bills have gone down now from 8000 B+/mo. to about 2600 B, so the conversion has already paid for itself. There are lots of LPG stations in Bangkok now, and there is usually no wait at my local station. There is also a book you can buy for 100 B or so that shows filling stations throughout the country.

One concern I have is that given the age of my car (35 yrs.) it does not have hardened valve seats. Because LPG doesn't have the lubricating properties that leaded petrol did these may erode more rapidly than would be desirable. However, there is some information to suggest that seats that have been in use for years and had lead lubrication self-harden. I do plan on having an oiler installed as it only costs about 600 B or so. In any case, I can now obtain hardened seats here and if the valves train should fail at some point the cost for repairing that is very little as I have all the parts and I can swap the head out in a few hours.

So, so far so good. At some point will convert the Volvo.

My wife recently saw a story about long, long waits at NGV stations, so if you are considering that it is something to check out first.

[tigerbeer]

i just did a CNG/NGV conversion here in chiang mai for 53k. tank is a 70 lit which can take something like 22kgs of CNG. its extremely heavy and they had to add some rubber thing to the shocks to lift the car up a bit on the back. i have to go to a professional shock person to change them shocks to something proper that can take heavy weights at the back.

report of using it: its not 15 or 20 minutes to fill up a tank. it takes merely 5 minutes or maybe less to fill up from empty to full tank of a 70 lit which is what most cars can fit. i still don't get get the 20 minutes part. waiting is line to fill up is a different story though. i live in chiang mai and we only have two filling up stations for CNG which is a shame. with all the promotion that PTT and the government is doing to convert to NGV, its totally disappointing. i have to go out of my way to get the tank filled up. i get about 200km's per fill up of about 130 baht. yes it is cheaper than LPG. there is power loss when on NGV. between 10% to 20% for sure. alright for city driving.

also reports from bkk is that they mostly just fill up your tank for 100 baht cause too many cars need it and they need to ration on NGV. and many stations run out of the gas quite often.

all factors considered, LPG is still the way to go. and this is coming from an NGV user. if you can handle the occasional smell of LPG in the car that is. its cheaper to convert and most convinent with the number of filling stations. shame on PTT as the sole distributor of CNG, a typical monopoly.

[ratcatcher]

Thought I would report my experience so far with an LPG conversion since it has been about 3 months now.

I have an old Land Rover with a 2.25 petrol engine. The conversion cost 17,000 Baht and I had a 90 L tank put in, which is good for 72 L of usable gas. I have carefully recorded mileage and to my surprise I actually obtain slightly better mileage with LPG, although I have heard that there is usually a 10% loss. Why that would be I have no idea, but I will take it. My engine use to run on when shut off hot, which is not unusual for this engine due to hotspots, but does not do that with LPG, which is very nice. My engine always runs smooth, but I think it runs a bit smoother on LPG. Slightly less power, but I don't think you would even notice that on more powerful engines. In my case it is quite acceptable. My fuel bills have gone down now from 8000 B+/mo. to about 2600 B, so the conversion has already paid for itself. There are lots of LPG stations in Bangkok now, and there is usually no wait at my local station. There is also a book you can buy for 100 B or so that shows filling stations throughout the country.

One concern I have is that given the age of my car (35 yrs.) it does not have hardened valve seats. Because LPG doesn't have the lubricating properties that leaded petrol did these may erode more rapidly than would be desirable. However, there is some information to suggest that seats that have been in use for years and had lead lubrication self-harden. I do plan on having an oiler installed as it only costs about 600 B or so. In any case, I can now obtain hardened seats here and if the valves train should fail at some point the cost for repairing that is very little as I have all the parts and I can swap the head out in a few hours.

So, so far so good. At some point will convert the Volvo.

My wife recently saw a story about long, long waits at NGV stations, so if you are considering that it is something to check out first.

"qualtrough", do you know where this book is available?

It should be very useful to drivers of LPG converted vehicles.

I am keen to get one. As I plan on traveling around this summer.

Thanks

Edited February 8, 2008 by ratcatcher

[Gary A]

Thought I would report my experience so far with an LPG conversion since it has been about 3 months now.

I have an old Land Rover with a 2.25 petrol engine. The conversion cost 17,000 Baht and I had a 90 L tank put in, which is good for 72 L of usable gas. I have carefully recorded mileage and to my surprise I actually obtain slightly better mileage with LPG, although I have heard that there is usually a 10% loss. Why that would be I have no idea, but I will take it. My engine use to run on when shut off hot, which is not unusual for this engine due to hotspots, but does not do that with LPG, which is very nice. My engine always runs smooth, but I think it runs a bit smoother on LPG. Slightly less power, but I don't think you would even notice that on more powerful engines. In my case it is quite acceptable. My fuel bills have gone down now from 8000 B+/mo. to about 2600 B, so the conversion has already paid for itself. There are lots of LPG stations in Bangkok now, and there is usually no wait at my local station. There is also a book you can buy for 100 B or so that shows filling stations throughout the country.

One concern I have is that given the age of my car (35 yrs.) it does not have hardened valve seats. Because LPG doesn't have the lubricating properties that leaded petrol did these may erode more rapidly than would be desirable. However, there is some information to suggest that seats that have been in use for years and had lead lubrication self-harden. I do plan on having an oiler installed as it only costs about 600 B or so. In any case, I can now obtain hardened seats here and if the valves train should fail at some point the cost for repairing that is very little as I have all the parts and I can swap the head out in a few hours.

So, so far so good. At some point will convert the Volvo.

My wife recently saw a story about long, long waits at NGV stations, so if you are considering that it is something to check out first.

"qualtrough", do you know where this book is available?

It should be very useful to drivers of LPG converted vehicles.

I am keen to get one. As I plan on traveling around this summer.

Thanks

This is another benefit of using a GPS. It will find stations that sell LPG and CNG. We now have LPG stations in Loei but the 2007 ESRI map doesn't list them. Maybe next year's up date will have them.

[Plus]

report of using it: its not 15 or 20 minutes to fill up a tank. it takes merely 5 minutes or maybe less to fill up from empty to full tank of a 70 lit which is what most cars can fit. i still don't get get the 20 minutes part. waiting is line to fill up is a different story though.

Thanks for clarifying that. Apparently it's a common misunderstanding.