Lpg & Ngv Fuel.

[monty]

report of using it: its not 15 or 20 minutes to fill up a tank. it takes merely 5 minutes or maybe less to fill up from empty to full tank of a 70 lit

Useful info!

i get about 200km's per fill up of about 130 baht.

Major drawback. It wouldn't even last 1 round trip to the airport from where I am!

In what car is this, and what is the average mileage you get on petrol?

Knowing this i would be able to calculate what mileage I would get with my cars!

[tigerbeer]

report of using it: its not 15 or 20 minutes to fill up a tank. it takes merely 5 minutes or maybe less to fill up from empty to full tank of a 70 lit

Useful info!

i get about 200km's per fill up of about 130 baht.

Major drawback. It wouldn't even last 1 round trip to the airport from where I am!

In what car is this, and what is the average mileage you get on petrol?

Knowing this i would be able to calculate what mileage I would get with my cars!

monty, i drive the current model of honda civic 1.8 auto. with petrol i get about 13 to 14 kms per litre. it works out to be approximately 2.8 baht to a km. with CNG, it works out to be about 70 satang per km. which is significant savings. my bro in law's audi 2.4 V6 A6 with LPG does 2.5 baht per km with LPG. reckon that would go up to about 4 baht per km on petrol!!!

nevertheless, i am saving lots of $$$ and do about 100km's a day when children go to school. 2 days is all it lasts and then a refill. more NGV stations are due to come up soon. so lets see how it goes. at the moment though, LPG is a cheaper conversion and more convenient.

[monty]

monty, i drive the current model of honda civic 1.8 auto. with petrol i get about 13 to 14 kms per litre.

Ouch, my Volvo runs 7 km to the liter. This would mean a range of slightly over 100km when on cng!

my bro in law's audi 2.4 V6 A6 with LPG does 2.5 baht per km

Huh???

at 10 Baht/liter for LPG, this would mean 4km to the liter!!!

If that's true, then he'll run maximum 5km to the liter on petrol or 6.5 Baht/km !!!

[tigerbeer]

monty, i drive the current model of honda civic 1.8 auto. with petrol i get about 13 to 14 kms per litre.

Ouch, my Volvo runs 7 km to the liter. This would mean a range of slightly over 100km when on cng!

my bro in law's audi 2.4 V6 A6 with LPG does 2.5 baht per km

Huh???

at 10 Baht/liter for LPG, this would mean 4km to the liter!!!

If that's true, then he'll run maximum 5km to the liter on petrol or 6.5 Baht/km !!!

yes cause his full tank of LPG costs 550 baht and does about 240km. that makes it about 2.3baht. not 2.5baht per km as i stated earlier.

his car only does 95 benzene too. you do 7km to a litre of LPG? whats the work out of your car running on LPG as unit of price per km? if my calculations are correct, then NGV is indeed cheaper to LPG. net costs per km. not talking about price of lpg vs Ngv as a commodity. they sell NGV per kilogram vs LPG per litre anyways.

[monty]

you do 7km to a litre of LPG? whats the work out of your car running on LPG as unit of price per km

I only do maybe 8 km to the liter on Petrol. This is a 25 year old, 1900 kg heavy Volvo 245 with the original 2.3 liter engine inside. Automatic gearbox as well...

So on LPG 1.45 Baht/km, on petrol 4.125 Baht/km.

The Audi should get much better mileage, even on LPG. If the difference in mileage (between LPG and petrol) is more then 10% he should have his LPG system checked!

[Crossy]

report of using it: its not 15 or 20 minutes to fill up a tank. it takes merely 5 minutes or maybe less to fill up from empty to full tank of a 70 lit which is what most cars can fit. i still don't get get the 20 minutes part. waiting is line to fill up is a different story though.

Thanks for clarifying that. Apparently it's a common misunderstanding.

Actually there are two types of CNG stations, high-pressure and low-pressure. The original stations were low-pressure and took a LONG time to fill, many of the stations around BKK are still this type. New high-pressure stations fill in 3-5 minutes, much more acceptable

By the way, both CNG and LPG are measured in KILOGRAMS and not LITRES. A measurement of volume is meaningless when it refers to a gas, the volume vares significantly with temperature and pressure. Your 70L tank always has 70L of gas in it, just at lower pressure as the gas is used.

For comparing consumption a Baht/Litre comparison is probably easiest.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Crossy

[percy2]

By the way, both CNG and LPG are measured in KILOGRAMS and not LITRES. A measurement of volume is meaningless when it refers to a gas, the volume vares significantly with temperature and pressure. Your 70L tank always has 70L of gas in it, just at lower pressure as the gas is used.

For comparing consumption a Baht/Litre comparison is probably easiest.

In another thread I was involved in I started to investigate this.

The answer wasn't apparent.

But I assume LPG is sold in Litres as it is not a gas but Liquid Petroleum Gas.

Can anybody clarify?

This is why earlier in the thread I asked about Baht/Kilometer as I think its the only practical measurement.

Cheers

[monty]

But I assume LPG is sold in Litres as it is not a gas but Liquid Petroleum Gas.

LPG is liquid, so sold per liter.

CNG is gas, so sold per kg.

This is the reason the range of cng cars is so short.

Advantage of LPG is that when you compress it till it goes liquid, it also reduces 250 times in volume!

The other way around, when you release 1 liter of LPG, it'll change in to 250 liters of gas!

That's why LPG gets a good range out of a relative lowly pressurized tank, and why CNG has to be forced into the tank at very high pressures to get any usable amount inside!

As an indication, the volumetric energy density of CNG is about 25% of that of diesel (1 liter of diesel generates 4 times more energy then 1 liter of CNG), while LPG is about 65% of diesel...

FYI 1 liter of LPG weighs around 0.5 kg

1 KG of CNG weighs, well eeeuh, 1 kg

[percy2]

I found many of these equations when I looked it up.

Hence my decision to compare efficiencies based on B/km, so much easier for me to understand at a glance.

The other option is to get somebody cleverer to do the maths.

Cheers

[madjbs]

My car stutters slightly when at about 3000rpm and running LPG. I am not sure if it's a problem that is amplified when LPG is used or it’s a problem with the LPG system. It had a new system installed not so long ago and someone has told me that a new system needs to be tuned a few times after the installation so that could be it. Does this sound like the problem to you guys?

[monty]

My car stutters slightly when at about 3000rpm and running LPG. I am not sure if it's a problem that is amplified when LPG is used or it’s a problem with the LPG system. It had a new system installed not so long ago and someone has told me that a new system needs to be tuned a few times after the installation so that could be it. Does this sound like the problem to you guys?

Is it the old style vacuumsystem?

If so, yes they can lose the correct setting after a while.

The rough way to adjust is to let the engine run at 3000 RPM, slowly close the valve/regulator screw with the heavy spring underneath (it's located on the hose going from the evaporator to the venturi ring at the air intake of your engine) until the rpm's start to drop, then open a quarter turn again.

If the RPM start to drop immediately at the slightest closing of that valve, you probably were running on the lean side, if it took more then a quarter turn to make the engine lose revs, you were running too rich!

Too rich only increases consumption without increased power, to lean is bad for your engine!

Nothing much more to tune!

[tigerbeer]

my bro in law's lpg took quite a bit of setting before it worked perfectly well. now it flies ! ..

monty, as you suggested earlier, i think he should take his car to an expert to relook at his LPG system. 250km's for a 50 litre tank is too short a mileage.

[madjbs]

Thanks Monty

I get fairly bad millage so I guess that could be the problem, I will take a look if I can find the right screw. I am not sure if my car has an oiler fitted or not, what exactly does it look like?

Thanks for the help

[MaiChai]

Saw on the channel 11 news tonight that one of the first things the new government is going to do is bump up the lpg price to 'market levels'. They also mentioned that they would at ways of cushioning the change on consumers. Thus lpg will be more expensive some time soon.

[monty]

Saw on the channel 11 news tonight that one of the first things the new government is going to do is bump up the lpg price to 'market levels'. They also mentioned that they would at ways of cushioning the change on consumers. Thus lpg will be more expensive some time soon.

Well, that definitely won't be a populist thing. Don't forget the country cooks on LPG, so this would hit the Thai population especially on the lowest level!

One of the biggest costs of noodle soup is the LPG with which to keep the big pot boiling, and price of the noodle soup 'round the corner is one of the first thing Thai people relate to if they want to make a point living costs have gone up!

[monty]

If you do a quick check on price levels of LPG, compared to the price level of premium fuel, you'll see it almost always at 40-45% of premium fuel.

Apart from Thailand where it currently is at 33% of premium fuel.

Letting the price float with zero subsidy would bring it roughly between 13 and 14 Baht/liter, unless they are going to slap more tax on LPG then they do on fuel.

Which they won't, they simply can't justify that considering premium fuel is a luxury item (not diesel!) and LPG is a much needed commodity!

So yes, we're most probably in for a price hike, but even taking in consideration the increased consumption we'll still be driving at under 50% of the price of regular fuel.

[Gary A]

Cooking gas should not be affected because the price increase will come from a road tax. The article I read said that all LPG is domestically produced but with all the vehicle conversions, LPG will have to be imported within two years.

[Plus]

Years ago there were complaints that Cambodians were buying cooking gas in Thailand, subsidised with Thai taxpayers money, but the issue was so sensitive that they preferred to leave it as it is. They can probably raise it without raising cooking gas prices, but that would hit taxi drivers - current government only support base in Bangkok.

At the moment they are talking about freezing prices of most popular consumer items and freezing bus fares, raising prices of LPG doesn't fit in with their overall policy.

Sooner or later the subsidy will be gone, however.

[monty]

If they rise the price at the LPG pumps, but not of cooking gas (hard since quite a few of those cooking gas tanks get filled at LPG stations), people will just start filling their cars from cooking gas containers, regardless of the danger involved.

12V powered pumps are readily available from the internet allowing you to pump the contents of a cooking gas tank into your car!

Indeed, a special road tax for LPG powered vehicles is more probable, they do this for instance in several European countries, where you also need a clearly visible sticker indicating you are LPG powered...

[tigerbeer]

all this fear of rise in prices of LPG was one of the reasons i went with NGV. i figured that with all the government support for the use of NGV, this is the best for the future. least did i realise how inconvenient it is to find a pumping station and how little one could travel with a full tank. typical all talk but no show by PTT and all that are involved. NGV users in bangkok are the ones suffering most despite the expensive cost of conversion.

electric cars anyone???

[Plus]

I don't think they'll increase road tax on LPG as it's also clearly against their overall policy - they'd better reduce taxes on "green" vehicles. They already give 50k refund for converting new cars to CNG, I believe.

[tigerbeer]

I don't think they'll increase road tax on LPG as it's also clearly against their overall policy - they'd better reduce taxes on "green" vehicles. They already give 50k refund for converting new cars to CNG, I believe.

and where did you hear that from??? 50k? the price quoted to me for conversion was 56k. 5k was given as a rebate from PTT. THat was all.

[Plus]

I believe it was related to excise tax reduction for CNG vehicles, but probably for manufacturer approved conversions only. I remember that Chevrolet offers CNG conversion for Optra, Toyota was planning to offer it, too.

[luckyboy]

I live in the south and NGV are available everywhere now , also near towns at all PTT stations even till the borders. I wish there’s a production car or truck for full NGV, I’ll buy them for sure but to modified I’m least convince about safety and reliability. Biodiesel are equally as expensive as diesel and could get more expensive if world really demand, and the facts that it’s sharing our food, causing fertilizer to get expensive thus affect other crops, mass clearing of rainforest driving animal kingdoms to their early ends. This oil tree bear no wood so there’ll not even a primary forest left soon afterwards, gone are all the wildlife species, all in one package into your fuel tank just to keep you driving. See for yourself and think of our children.

[sunny747]

hi,

my car is installed with manual LPG.....i bought this car few days ago. but the owner hardly driven on oil. But ever since i bought the car, i always start my car with oil and after 2/3 minutes i switch to LPG. But i can't drive with oil. My car shakes a lot while on oil and the start goes off if i don't kick the accelerator. but with LPG it runs fine.

i would like to drive on oil sometimes........what could be the problem?

[madjbs]

Fuel system probably needs a clean, try a fuel injector cleaner.

[sleepyjohn]

A friend just told me his LPG supplier told him the price would rise to 20 bahtish in Julyish.

Can anyone confirm or deny as I am considering a conversion and would love to do it but this might be a deal breaker? Would they have to do it to cooking LPG too?

thanx John

Edited April 9, 2008 by sleepyjohn

[Plus]

Depending on the car and the engine your price might increase from 1.4 baht per km to 1.5 baht. Still at most half of the cost of running on gasoline.

[sleepyjohn]

your price might increase from 1.4 baht per km to 1.5 baht.

May I ask what your 7% increase is based on Plus?

Edited April 9, 2008 by sleepyjohn

[sleepyjohn]

Plus I just looked back at your past posts.

Is your disagreement with what my friend heard based on your interpretation of government policy or anything specific?

Presumably if they added to car gas they would have to add to cooking gas otherwise it could be transferred from bottle to bottle. Is it possible they could raise cooking gas by double?