Lpg & Ngv Fuel.

[sunny747]

Hi all,

i have just made a good service. the mitsubishi guy told me that i've problem with my Lpg system. I hear lot of ''huss" sound while driving. the race of the car is very low and the speed could hardly reach to 110km even though the engine just has been serviced properly with timing belt set.

The guys said the gas is not passing to the engine properly hence the race and the speed reduced. not sure about this information. i don't get any gas smell while driving . even when i open the bonet i don't see any leakage or smell.

need your idea..

[Plus]

Sleepyjohn, I simply misread your "20 bahtish".

If indeed the price doubles form current 11 baht, overall savings will be minimal.

I just got my diesel replaced with a bigger petrol engine and converted to LPG, fuel consumption is a lot higher with the current settings but I will adjust them again after holidays. Just a few days ago it was a reasonable 1.5baht/l but there was lack of power and some backfiring, and spark plugs and some other LPG parts were replaced.

There's a significant power increase after that, unfortunately better economy often means less power, let's see what the garage will come up with next week.

I still can't get a grip on what they are doing with gas ECU. Looks like they load different power profiles, not simply adjust injector setting up or down. I quite like the current profile - shtiloads of power in lower RPMs but very punishing to the wallet when pushed over 3,000 and I can literally watch LPG lights going out if I push to 6,000.

If I can be sure I can get about 1.8baht/l if driving under 3,000, I'll keep the current settings but now it looks like it's pushing to 2baht/l after all this speeding fun for two days.

[clausewitz]

I believe it was related to excise tax reduction for CNG vehicles, but probably for manufacturer approved conversions only. I remember that Chevrolet offers CNG conversion for Optra, Toyota was planning to offer it, too.

The optra versions with NGV cost an extra 50,000 baht plus.

[chris11]

Hello

Is it possible to change a Nissan Frontier 3.0l ZX Manuell Gear(Diesel) to NGV or LPG and if yes How much is the cost roughly.

Thanks in Advance

Chris

[chris11]

Hello

Is it possible to change a Nissan Frontier 3.0l ZX Manuell Gear(Diesel) to NGV or LPG and if yes How much is the cost roughly.

Thanks in Advance

Chris

Sorry

No ZX i mean Frontier ZDI

[monty]

Diesel engines are very expensive to convert.

With LPG, the engine will still need diesel, I think a mixture of 60% diesel and 40% LPG, so the savings are much smaller.

With NGV I think it's possible to run completely on NGV, but not sure on the price of the engine conversion. This mostly gets done on big trucks doing a huge amount of miles, and with the space to put in 12 or more NGV tanks, since the range you get out of 1 tank is very small...

Most people having diesel engines (admittedly mostly older cars) opt to just take out the original engine (and sell it) and replace it with a petrol engine, which then can get converted to LPG.

[Gary A]

Like everyone else, LPG is looking better and better. CNG would be more economical but the limited range and the lack of filling stations here in Issan make LPG the logical choice. I stopped at a new LPG filling station and the cost per liter was 12.7 baht. A bottle of cooking gas went from 270 baht to 300 baht just recently. That is for 15 kilograms of LPG. That makes it 20 baht per kilogram, or roughly the same price as LPG at the vehicle filling station.

The question is if the rapidly increasing demand for LPG will lead to shortages as well as major price increases is a HUGE question mark.

[Plus]

Thailand produces its own LPG and imports some more. Imported LPG has to be subsidised directly, locally produced is easier to control. I believe many power stations here use LPG, maybe more than all the cars and cooking cylinders combined.

Price increase is imminent, but the government will try to soften the impact by juggling domestic and improted LPG around. They also want to put limits on LPG expansion and stop issuing new licenses for LPG stations.

[Gary A]

Thailand produces its own LPG and imports some more. Imported LPG has to be subsidised directly, locally produced is easier to control. I believe many power stations here use LPG, maybe more than all the cars and cooking cylinders combined.

Price increase is imminent, but the government will try to soften the impact by juggling domestic and improted LPG around. They also want to put limits on LPG expansion and stop issuing new licenses for LPG stations.

Since I am very seriously considering converting my Ford Focus to LPG I was doing a lot of surfing to see if there were any serious draw backs.

I did find one article that compared an LPG powered Focus to a diesel powered Focus. I assume it was from the UK because the figures stated were 52 MPG for the diesel and 26.6 MPG with the LPG so I think that was likely based on an Imperial gallon.

Have you compared diesel kilometers per liter versus LPG kilometers per liter? I knew it would take more LPG per kilometer but twice as much is a little surprising. Still cheaper than diesel but that does cut into savings considerably.

[Plus]

I read that generally fuel economy drops by 20% when using LPG in a petrol car.

There might be the case for buying diesel in the first place, but you already own petrol Focus, right?

I replaced 2.5l diesel with 3l petrol, surely it consumes far more fuel now, but with LPG I still can save. I guess I pay just over a half of what I'd have paid if I was still using diesel now, at the current prices, and I got a lot more power from 2jz, it's so much fun that I don't mind less savings.

[Gary A]

Yes, I already have the Focus. I had my wife ask at the Ford dealer and apparently they have a connection with an LPG installer. I was concerned about the warranty being voided. That's what I had determined would happen from my poor grasp of the Thai language. My wife says Ford doesn't warranty the LPG system (understandable) but the rest of the car is still under normal warranty. I don't want to throw away a year and a half of Ford warranty so I will have to find out for sure before I make a changeover.

[monty]

I read that generally fuel economy drops by 20% when using LPG in a petrol car.

There might be the case for buying diesel in the first place, but you already own petrol Focus, right?

I replaced 2.5l diesel with 3l petrol, surely it consumes far more fuel now, but with LPG I still can save. I guess I pay just over a half of what I'd have paid if I was still using diesel now, at the current prices, and I got a lot more power from 2jz, it's so much fun that I don't mind less savings.

In my personal experience, consumption on LPG (compared to the same engine on petrol) will go up by 10% with the old style (cheap) LPG installation, and less then 5% with the expensive computer controlled LPG injection system.

Wow, over 12 Baht/liter is expensive!

Here in Pattaya the price varies between 9.69 Baht/liter, up to 10.75 Baht/liter for the most expensive station (PTT)

[sunny747]

i have LPG installed with 1.3 cc engine (93 model). I can make about 350 km with Lpg which costs me around 550 baht in the city with heavy traffic.

Recently i took my car to the mechanic and he told me that an engine with 1.8 cc will consume less LPG than my current one. Simple math shows he is wrong. I was thinking of swapping my engine to get more HP.

but does it really consume less LPG if the cc is higher?

[Who, me ?]

i have LPG installed with 1.3 cc engine (93 model). I can make about 350 km with Lpg which costs me around 550 baht in the city with heavy traffic.

Recently i took my car to the mechanic and he told me that an engine with 1.8 cc will consume less LPG than my current one. Simple math shows he is wrong. I was thinking of swapping my engine to get more HP.

but does it really consume less LPG if the cc is higher?

Which system do you have ? The "taxi" one, or the computerized one ? And what are pros and con ?

Thanks

[Plus]

n my personal experience, consumption on LPG (compared to the same engine on petrol) will go up by 10% with the old style (cheap) LPG installation, and less then 5% with the expensive computer controlled LPG injection system.

I got 20% number from some UK LPG forum and manufacturers' websites - they are quite open about it.

Oh, Garry, LPG will void warrantee on the engine, but there's a very little chance you'll ever need it, especially after a year and half use - you must know whether your block is reliable or not by now.

LPG is easier on the engine than petrol, too.

Ok, a typical table with MPGs and price comparison for LPG, diesel, and petrol. MPG drop is nearly 30% between petrol and lpg versions.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Plus

[skydiver77]

Yes, I already have the Focus. I had my wife ask at the Ford dealer and apparently they have a connection with an LPG installer. I was concerned about the warranty being voided. That's what I had determined would happen from my poor grasp of the Thai language. My wife says Ford doesn't warranty the LPG system (understandable) but the rest of the car is still under normal warranty. I don't want to throw away a year and a half of Ford warranty so I will have to find out for sure before I make a changeover.

Exactly one year ago, my wife and I dobbed in our venerable Lancer for a Focus sedan 1.8.

She was expecting to stay with a Jap model, but on a visit back to the UK, we hired a Focus and did some touring around Scotland etc. We were very pleased with the overall performance. And this caused us to go to Ford.

Here we are also pleased with it's driveability especialy in wet conditions but not too happy with the kpl.

So we are now considering going over to LPG.

I have a very good taxi driver friend who has recently had his Mitsubishi converted and now wishes he'd done it ages ago.

He also has a map showing station locations.

As a matter of interest, 6 months ago we had some hassle with Ford Service.

My wife uses the car for the office most days, so the average is around 50kl per day. At 6 months I was observing increasing tire wear on the left rear and at 7mths overall tread depth was down to 2mm. The other tires had normal wear.

For the same kl, our Lancer tires lasted up to 2 years.

At this point, not inclined to switch around, I wanted to see Fords reaction.......

Blank faces all around at the service place. And just a glance at the tire. I then directed the mrs to inform them I would now go to Ford HQ in the city and complain to the top cat. The American boss had just had his pic. in the BKK Post, spouting on about Ford quality service.

Suddenly we were alone.

Then 2 new guys appeared with cameras and took pics of the tire. We were asked to wait in reception.

40 min. later a little guy in a smart suit came to us and agreed the tire wear was abnormal. And if we would wait a little longer, a free new tire would be fitted plus the other rear tire would be replaced at half price.

While we were waiting, my wife spotted the salesman who flogged us the car and got some suprising info.

Ford knew about the problem and were receiving complaints from other customers. It seems the wheel could be 2 degrees off alignment and needed resetting. And this was being seen to right now while we were waiting.

No further problems.

Just keep your eye on the left rear.

[Gary A]

Yes, I already have the Focus. I had my wife ask at the Ford dealer and apparently they have a connection with an LPG installer. I was concerned about the warranty being voided. That's what I had determined would happen from my poor grasp of the Thai language. My wife says Ford doesn't warranty the LPG system (understandable) but the rest of the car is still under normal warranty. I don't want to throw away a year and a half of Ford warranty so I will have to find out for sure before I make a changeover.

Exactly one year ago, my wife and I dobbed in our venerable Lancer for a Focus sedan 1.8.

She was expecting to stay with a Jap model, but on a visit back to the UK, we hired a Focus and did some touring around Scotland etc. We were very pleased with the overall performance. And this caused us to go to Ford.

Here we are also pleased with it's driveability especialy in wet conditions but not too happy with the kpl.

So we are now considering going over to LPG.

I have a very good taxi driver friend who has recently had his Mitsubishi converted and now wishes he'd done it ages ago.

He also has a map showing station locations.

As a matter of interest, 6 months ago we had some hassle with Ford Service.

My wife uses the car for the office most days, so the average is around 50kl per day. At 6 months I was observing increasing tire wear on the left rear and at 7mths overall tread depth was down to 2mm. The other tires had normal wear.

For the same kl, our Lancer tires lasted up to 2 years.

At this point, not inclined to switch around, I wanted to see Fords reaction.......

Blank faces all around at the service place. And just a glance at the tire. I then directed the mrs to inform them I would now go to Ford HQ in the city and complain to the top cat. The American boss had just had his pic. in the BKK Post, spouting on about Ford quality service.

Suddenly we were alone.

Then 2 new guys appeared with cameras and took pics of the tire. We were asked to wait in reception.

40 min. later a little guy in a smart suit came to us and agreed the tire wear was abnormal. And if we would wait a little longer, a free new tire would be fitted plus the other rear tire would be replaced at half price.

While we were waiting, my wife spotted the salesman who flogged us the car and got some suprising info.

Ford knew about the problem and were receiving complaints from other customers. It seems the wheel could be 2 degrees off alignment and needed resetting. And this was being seen to right now while we were waiting.

No further problems.

Just keep your eye on the left rear.

I did have an unusual thing happen. I thought there was a slight rumble at about 70 kilometers per hour that I had not heard before. When I took the car in for regular service, I told them about it. They checked it out and told me to bring the car back the next week. The next week when I went back, they took out both front axles and replaced them with complete new assemblies. They must have had a recall to replace them but nothing was said or sent to us. Other than that I really like the car and particularly the handling, interior and build quality. I have no complaints other than the fuel economy. All the tires still look like new.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Gary A

[junkofdavid2]

Also, they put in extra valve lubrication/cooling together with the LPG installation over here, which basically injects two stroke oil roughly at the rate of 1:300 (doesn't have to lubricate the whole engine like in a two stroke motor, hence the low rate)

Does anyone have a picture of what this "extra-lubrication" system looks like when attached to an LPG powered engine?

I'm looking to buy a used LPG powered car, and I wana know what this extra-lubrication looks like. Thanks.

[qualtrough]

Also, they put in extra valve lubrication/cooling together with the LPG installation over here, which basically injects two stroke oil roughly at the rate of 1:300 (doesn't have to lubricate the whole engine like in a two stroke motor, hence the low rate)

Does anyone have a picture of what this "extra-lubrication" system looks like when attached to an LPG powered engine?

I'm looking to buy a used LPG powered car, and I wana know what this extra-lubrication looks like. Thanks.

I don't have a pic, but it is usually a small plastic bottle for the oil with a tube or tubes running to the valve cover or intake manifold, not sure which. I haven't gotten around to doing that with my engine. It doesn't cost much, I was quoted something like 750 Baht total.

[ishmael]

Dear Sirs,

is it possible to have a safe toroidal LPG tank fitted as part of a LPG conversion? The car would be a Toyota Camry and the doughnut shaped tank would fit in the spare wheel well and leave the trunk free. The cylindrical tanks I've seen not only take up a deal of space but their position is such that one cannot carry long objects by lowering the back seat as the tank is in the way.

I underlined the word "safe" advisedly as I read in the "Nation" or the "Bangkok Post" of such toroidal tanks being poorly made. This was awhiles ago.

Thaking you for taking the time and trouble to read my question.

Yours faithfully,

ishmael.

[sysmaster]

Dear Sirs,

is it possible to have a safe toroidal LPG tank fitted as part of a LPG conversion? The car would be a Toyota Camry and the doughnut shaped tank would fit in the spare wheel well and leave the trunk free. The cylindrical tanks I've seen not only take up a deal of space but their position is such that one cannot carry long objects by lowering the back seat as the tank is in the way.

I underlined the word "safe" advisedly as I read in the "Nation" or the "Bangkok Post" of such toroidal tanks being poorly made. This was awhiles ago.

Thaking you for taking the time and trouble to read my question.

Yours faithfully,

ishmael.

Hi ishmael,

In EU, toroid tanks are considered safe and when properly installed will pass the car inspection there.

You may not be familiar with for example German car inspection (TUV & Dekra) and the rules and regulation there, they are the most stringent in EU.

And there you will find most of the LPG driven cars with toroid tanks.

Currently, to my knowledge, all toroid tanks available in TH are imported from EU manufacturers, and their tanks are tested and approved by their local authorities, I do not expect them to produce "special" batches for export to TH or so.

Several reasons have been popping up why toroid tanks are unsafe in TH:

Poorly installed by local installers and therefor unsafe

Due to typical road conditions in TH (speed bumps etc) tanks tend to be damaged....

(well, my spare does not show any damage, also not the extra protective cover under it)

One more reasonable explanation is that the authorities here have been lobbied by the local tank manufacturers, not to allow toroids (until they are capable to manufacture them), just to keep the competition out. Toroid tanks would be hugely successful because everybody dislikes the fact that valuable booth space is taken by the conventional tanks.

Having some experience how business is done here, this is the more likely reason.

One thing is for sure, as soon as toroids are legal here, I'll be back at my LPG installer's shop to remove the normal tank and install a toroid.

As to your Camry, did you also consider to have the tank installed lengthwise, left or right side in your trunk (best position is the one counter to your gasoline tank, just for balance).

I myself have a Chevy Zafira, and a conventional tank installation would have ruined my rear compartment, specially the 3rd. row of seats, so the tank was installed lengthwise, thereby only losing one extra seat.

Edited August 3, 2008 by sysmaster

[ishmael]

Dear Sirs,

is it possible to have a safe toroidal LPG tank fitted as part of a LPG conversion? The car would be a Toyota Camry and the doughnut shaped tank would fit in the spare wheel well and leave the trunk free. The cylindrical tanks I've seen not only take up a deal of space but their position is such that one cannot carry long objects by lowering the back seat as the tank is in the way.

I underlined the word "safe" advisedly as I read in the "Nation" or the "Bangkok Post" of such toroidal tanks being poorly made. This was awhiles ago.

Thanking you for taking the time and trouble to read my question.

Yours faithfully,

ishmael.

[bellagrego]

Guys, we've got a lot of smart -engineer types out there and some great geeks, we also have some goofy guys that have not done their homework and kinda shoot from hip and report rumors and so called factual self-experience as facts. They are no facts, just antedotel misinformation. Go with accurately researched and documented conclusions only. You will find, as I have, that it is politics, not consumption that drives the cost of your k per l here in Thailand. It is premature to make any sizable investment at this time due to these idiots current misdirections. Wait a year, go with what you have till then. Fact one. Thailand subsidises every fuel price currently due to the price of oil that changes all other fuel prices. Fact 2 Thailand is a net IMPORTER of both CNG (NGV) and LPG at the present time and is pumping up both which are costing them a ton. Fact 3, Diesel is also subsidized to buy votes. There is no way of knowking what direction they will go next. The Thai Auto asociation would like to know as well. E20, E85 who knows. It's all a crock and just politics and idiocy. For the geeks and the engineers they know diesel produces an average of 20percent more power and efficentcy over petrol. Cng and LPG per litre vary in a range of 5-10percent down from petrol when properly setup and regulated. So you do the math and the availability on location of NGV and that is the direction Thailand will go no doubt. The manufacturers know and are selling those conversions factory built now. That will be the ultimate preferred set up. Yhe rest is all smoke and mirrors. the real deal is that 30percent excise penalty of sedans over trucks at 7. Thayt's the real problem. Crunch the numbers all of them and good luck, it's a crap shoot at best

Russ bellagrego, retired 20 years general motors

[G54]

I read that generally fuel economy drops by 20% when using LPG in a petrol car.

There might be the case for buying diesel in the first place, but you already own petrol Focus, right?

I replaced 2.5l diesel with 3l petrol, surely it consumes far more fuel now, but with LPG I still can save. I guess I pay just over a half of what I'd have paid if I was still using diesel now, at the current prices, and I got a lot more power from 2jz, it's so much fun that I don't mind less savings.

2.8 diesel replaced with a 2.5 Toyota engine.

On a run I average 2 baht a kilometre

Around town 2.7 Baht

And that at current prices of 11.5 baht litre for LPG

I also pay at least half of what it would cost for diesel at current prices.

[qualtrough]

Guys, we've got a lot of smart -engineer types out there and some great geeks, we also have some goofy guys that have not done their homework and kinda shoot from hip and report rumors and so called factual self-experience as facts. They are no facts, just antedotel misinformation. Go with accurately researched and documented conclusions only. You will find, as I have, that it is politics, not consumption that drives the cost of your k per l here in Thailand. It is premature to make any sizable investment at this time due to these idiots current misdirections. Wait a year, go with what you have till then. Fact one. Thailand subsidises every fuel price currently due to the price of oil that changes all other fuel prices. Fact 2 Thailand is a net IMPORTER of both CNG (NGV) and LPG at the present time and is pumping up both which are costing them a ton. Fact 3, Diesel is also subsidized to buy votes. There is no way of knowking what direction they will go next. The Thai Auto asociation would like to know as well. E20, E85 who knows. It's all a crock and just politics and idiocy. For the geeks and the engineers they know diesel produces an average of 20percent more power and efficentcy over petrol. Cng and LPG per litre vary in a range of 5-10percent down from petrol when properly setup and regulated. So you do the math and the availability on location of NGV and that is the direction Thailand will go no doubt. The manufacturers know and are selling those conversions factory built now. That will be the ultimate preferred set up. Yhe rest is all smoke and mirrors. the real deal is that 30percent excise penalty of sedans over trucks at 7. Thayt's the real problem. Crunch the numbers all of them and good luck, it's a crap shoot at best

Russ bellagrego, retired 20 years general motors

Pretty good advice overall, but I disagree with the crap shoot, at least in my case. I drive a 35 year old Land Rover which on a good day gets 5km/L with petrol. The conversion cost 17,000 B and paid for itself within a little more than 3 months. Monthly costs now average 2400 B for LPG vs. 7000 for petrol. I estimate about a 5% power loss, which doesn't affect my driving within BKK. So, even if LPG goes to par with petrol at some point I will have saved money.

[Plus]

I read that generally fuel economy drops by 20% when using LPG in a petrol car.

There might be the case for buying diesel in the first place, but you already own petrol Focus, right?

I replaced 2.5l diesel with 3l petrol, surely it consumes far more fuel now, but with LPG I still can save. I guess I pay just over a half of what I'd have paid if I was still using diesel now, at the current prices, and I got a lot more power from 2jz, it's so much fun that I don't mind less savings.

2.8 diesel replaced with a 2.5 Toyota engine.

On a run I average 2 baht a kilometre

Around town 2.7 Baht

And that at current prices of 11.5 baht litre for LPG

I also pay at least half of what it would cost for diesel at current prices.

You don't mention fuel consumption - km per litre or litre per 100 km or mpg or whatever.

And 2.7 baht/km sounds too high. I can't get more than 2 baht/km even if I try. Maybe it's my injector heads that don't waste too much LPG.

[G54]

I read that generally fuel economy drops by 20% when using LPG in a petrol car.

There might be the case for buying diesel in the first place, but you already own petrol Focus, right?

I replaced 2.5l diesel with 3l petrol, surely it consumes far more fuel now, but with LPG I still can save. I guess I pay just over a half of what I'd have paid if I was still using diesel now, at the current prices, and I got a lot more power from 2jz, it's so much fun that I don't mind less savings.

2.8 diesel replaced with a 2.5 Toyota engine.

On a run I average 2 baht a kilometre

Around town 2.7 Baht

And that at current prices of 11.5 baht litre for LPG

I also pay at least half of what it would cost for diesel at current prices.

You don't mention fuel consumption - km per litre or litre per 100 km or mpg or whatever.

And 2.7 baht/km sounds too high. I can't get more than 2 baht/km even if I try. Maybe it's my injector heads that don't waste too much LPG.

Maybe it is high at 2.7 around town because of a problem with the system or it could be the way I drive. It would be good to hear what economy others get from around town driving and longer runs.

[papprit]

Hi,

May I know the LPG workshop around Hadyai? I want to convert my car from petrol to LPG.

Edited August 8, 2008 by papprit

[halim]

hi guys, i just found out there are actually 3 different types of LPG systems here in Thailand. Its called Fix Mixer (Open Loop), Fix Mixer + Lambda Control (Open Loop) and The Sequential Injection System. I understand about the Injection system, but can anyone explain to me the actual difference between the Fix Mixer and Fix Mixer + Lambda control? I tried to find an answer on google, but it all came back in Thai language. And the English answer doesn't make any sense. Thanks in advance.

[sysmaster]

hi guys, i just found out there are actually 3 different types of LPG systems here in Thailand. Its called Fix Mixer (Open Loop), Fix Mixer + Lambda Control (Open Loop) and The Sequential Injection System. I understand about the Injection system, but can anyone explain to me the actual difference between the Fix Mixer and Fix Mixer + Lambda control? I tried to find an answer on google, but it all came back in Thai language. And the English answer doesn't make any sense. Thanks in advance.

OK, I'll give it a try...

Fix mixer design is a device with a venturi-like hole where through the air on its way to the cylinders passes. inheritant to the design, at a certain point in the "air" tunnel, the passing airflow will create a vacuum/under pressure. in this area of the fix mixer, you will see one or more little holes in the inner wall, there the gas will be mixed into the airflow... the under pressure will suction the gas from the regulator.

Plain fix mixer: a device that is mounted on your existing carburetor and depending on the under pressure will release gas into the cylinder-air-intake, under pressure is created when you apply force to the accelerator, thus by opening the carburetor vane increase airflow into the cylinders. These mixers are installed on older cars that have no Lambda censor.

Fix Mixer with Lambda control: same principle but because the modern cars have a lambda censor feedback that will regulate the fuel-air mixture, the fix mixer needs to be able to apply the same regulating signal to the gas flow.

These apply to non-injection type engines, thus standard carburetors.

However apparently fix mixers are also offered to be installed on injector type engines, it will work, since it is also adding the gas to the airflow, but not very economical, and if the engine is in a mediocre condition, driving will not be exiting.

Modern injection engines performance and behavior is fully controlled by ECU's, if one or more cylinders are not performing equally, ECU's will try to compensate by adjusting fuel mix and ignition timing, just to make the engine run smooth. With a fixed mixer, the ECU has no ability to control the fuel mixture on each cylinder separately.