Gay/transgender Vocabulary

[kunjet]

What Thai words are being used to describe being gay, transgender, etc. I am especially interested in the particular connotations of different words. I've been told, for example, not to use "kathoey," as it can be offensive.

[meadish_sweetball]

As in other languages, there are levels of formality/politeness to be observed.

The politically correct word for 'kathoey' is 'saao bprapheet sawng' (approx. 'the second type of girl').

There is also the pair 'thom' / 'dîi' where 'thom' means a lesbian who does the masculine part, and 'dîi' a lesbian who does the feminine part.

[Johpa]

What Thai words are being used to describe being gay, transgender, etc. I am especially interested in the particular connotations of different words. I've been told, for example, not to use "kathoey," as it can be offensive.

Thai has a healthy variety of words to not only talk about gay folks but also let the listener know your feelings, positive or negative, towards gay people. And like most languages, the tone (not high low) used can always be used to imply additional connotations. I have heard the word kathoeyused in a very neutral manner and have heard it used as a perjorative term. I have used kathoey for decades to refer to an effeminate gay man in the third person, and have also heard the term used by some gay acquaintances in the same manner.

You might want to check out the "Gay Thailand" forum to discuss the current trend in political correctness regarding terminology in Thai.

[meadish_sweetball]

Yep, I'd agree that kathoey in most contexts is not offensive and rather neutral, but the euphemism 'saao bprapheed sawng' is still rather popular in formal contexts, and is sure to not be offensive.

[BambinA]

for me, and for 80% of transgirl ,the word "kathoey" is quite insult

[Johpa]

for me, and for 80% of transgirl ,the word "kathoey" is quite insult

I know this is a bit off-topic, but what is the newest acceptable politically correct term for the transgendered in English and Thai? Sorry but saao bprapheed sawng in Thai is far too cumbersome and transgendered in English is far too clinical for my tastes.

[Guest endure]

for me, and for 80% of transgirl ,the word "kathoey" is quite insult

I know this is a bit off-topic, but what is the newest acceptable politically correct term for the transgendered in English and Thai? Sorry but saao bprapheed sawng in Thai is far too cumbersome and transgendered in English is far too clinical for my tastes.

I know this is a bit off topic but why do you find it necessary to keep repeating this tired old phrase? It was politically correct to call black folk n****** a while ago. I'd have thought a man of your impeccable liberal leanings would have understood the use of language as labels or is that old rocking chair a bit too comfortable?

[BambinA]

I know this is a bit off-topic, but what is the newest acceptable politically correct term for the transgendered in English and Thai? Sorry but saao bprapheed sawng in Thai is far too cumbersome and transgendered in English is far too clinical for my tastes.

I know this is a bit off-topic too .Call me The 46 chromosomes come in 23 matching pairs.

I am what you are , aka. human .

[BambinA]

What Thai words are being used to describe being gay, transgender, etc

gay = gay

transgender = sao praphet song

queer /faggot/ sissy/ladyboy = katheoy , toot

[Johpa]

.... I'd have thought a man of your impeccable liberal leanings would have understood the use of language as labels or is that old rocking chair a bit too comfortable?

My political leanings do trend well left of center but I don't associate myself with those whiner politically correct liberals of today. And although not yet in the rocking chair, I am too far into my middle aged curmudgeoness to give a rat's derriere whether my vocabulary has become a bit dated and perhaps parts of which are now found a wee offensive by one person or another. To such people I say "get a life."

It is an interesting socio-linguistic topic, words and how they change connotations over time. Heck, when I was in high school the only things that had gender were French and Spanish nouns. And just look at the never ending debate today over the term "Farang" which many TV members here find an offensive term.

By the way, the highly euphemistic phrase "sao praphet song" does invite the question as to what pray tell is "sao praphet saam" !

[withnail]

Surely the most politically correct way of addressing someone would be by not making an issue of it in the first place. i.e. คุณ Khun. If you're talking about someone who isn't there then I doubt being offensive is really an issue. I suppose the important question is, how do transexual Thai women refer to other transexual Thai women when they are specifically discussing their gender?

How about เพศที่สาม pêt têe săam the third sex?

[PeaceBlondie]

We've had countless English discussions in the gay forum over words and their meanings. When khunjet asked the same question there, we suggested that he ask about Thai meanings in the Thai forum.

I've never posted here and doubt I've ever read a post here before today, but it appears to me that the Thai language is struggling with these words more than it ever did. Dr. Jackson's book about "Uncle Go" showed me that these issues, and the words for them, have evolved in Thailand for a long time now.

I'm no socio-linguist, but my curiosity tells me that when a modern language is struggling with words, it reflects a struggle on the part of that society to define the words.

[Johpa]

I'm no socio-linguist, but my curiosity tells me that when a modern language is struggling with words, it reflects a struggle on the part of that society to define the words.

Blondie, you have captured the essence of the field of socio-linguistics in a single sentence. I have seen graduate students struggle with this concept over pages of writing. As society changes in a myriad of directions so does the mirror of that society, its language. And in a rapidly changing society as today, this can leave those of us on the plus side of 50 years of age a bit semantically out of kilter with a younger generation who have not yet learned to hold their horses when judging others.

By the way, there is a nice short article on "euphemism" over on Wikipedia that is worth a gander regardless of one's gender.

[chokdii2002]

Here's another one for you guys:

Gay Thai men will often refer to women as "Chanee" or "ee-chanee". The latter is more often used when the particular woman of interest may be cutting into their territory.

[Patex]

Here's another one for you guys:

Gay Thai men will often refer to women as "Chanee" or "ee-chanee". The latter is more often used when the particular woman of interest may be cutting into their territory.

Do you know why?

[Guest endure]

.... I'd have thought a man of your impeccable liberal leanings would have understood the use of language as labels or is that old rocking chair a bit too comfortable?

My political leanings do trend well left of center but I don't associate myself with those whiner politically correct liberals of today. And although not yet in the rocking chair, I am too far into my middle aged curmudgeoness to give a rat's derriere whether my vocabulary has become a bit dated and perhaps parts of which are now found a wee offensive by one person or another. To such people I say "get a life."

Well, that's a sad thing, Johpa. I bet when you were a young firebrand you'd die of shame if your language offended those minority groups that you cared so much about. Now you're using the excuse of middle age to tell them to 'get a life'. Sad, sad, sad...

[meadish_sweetball]

Here's another one for you guys:

Gay Thai men will often refer to women as "Chanee" or "ee-chanee". The latter is more often used when the particular woman of interest may be cutting into their territory.

Do you know why?

'chanee' ชะนี means gibbon (a small ape of the family Hylobatidae with long arms native to South East Asia, see Gibbon at Wikipedia). Female gibbons have ferocious fights over male gibbons as part of the mating ritual.

However, if you ask a gay Thai man, he will probably give you the popular explanation, which is that female gibbons call out a sound that sounds like ผัว ผัว ผัว phoo-a phoo-a phoo-a (husband, husband, husband).

'ee' อี is a very impolite female prefix.

[Johpa]

.... I'd have thought a man of your impeccable liberal leanings would have understood the use of language as labels or is that old rocking chair a bit too comfortable?

My political leanings do trend well left of center but I don't associate myself with those whiner politically correct liberals of today. And although not yet in the rocking chair, I am too far into my middle aged curmudgeoness to give a rat's derriere whether my vocabulary has become a bit dated and perhaps parts of which are now found a wee offensive by one person or another. To such people I say "get a life."

Well, that's a sad thing, Johpa. I bet when you were a young firebrand you'd die of shame if your language offended those minority groups that you cared so much about. Now you're using the excuse of middle age to tell them to 'get a life'. Sad, sad, sad...

There is no need for thoughts of sadness. Au contraire mon amie, I feel quite liberated, empowered in the newer jargon, no longer caring about whether my lexicon is in vogue or not. Aging, including joining the ranks of the middle-aged, is a fact of life, and needs no excuses.

I fear you are misssing the point here. Language change, inlcuding lexical connotations, are of course most often initiated by its more youthful speakers. It is quite common to see an older generation using vocabulary, and even sometimes syntactical forms of speech, that are no longer in fashion amongst the younger generations. I still encounter senior citiens in the US refering to Blacks Americans as "coloreds". Many use this term without malice; it is simply the term they grew up with. That is not to say that some who use the term have no prejudice, but it is the person that imbues the word with a negative connotation and not the word itself.

Same goes for "Farang", a word many here find offensive and a word that a Thai speaker can use with utter neutrality or imbue with outright hatred. But I have never judged such people solely on the basis of their vocabulary, even during the mutually imagined days of my "firebrand" youth.

Perhaps I was indeed a tad overly caustic with my "get a life" remark and I apologise, but you still need to better understand the nature of language and you do judge people far too quickly. Beware of judging people solely based upon the clothes they wear or the vocabulary they may employ.

[Rikker]

In a thread that I don't have a lot to contribute to, let me express my solidarity with Johpa on this point. It's pretty much human nature to judge people within one's own worldview, when more often than not we would gain some insight by considering things from another perspective. It's really an enlightening thing to drop the stigmas people put on certain words or features of spoken language. It's a schism between popular (mis)conception and neutral observation, I suppose.

One of my favorite examples of this in the English-speaking world is the hubbub that surrounded the release of Webster's Third New International Dictionary in 1961. If you're linguistically inclined, the book "The Story of Webster's Third" by H.C. Morton is a great read. Basically, the popular conception of what a dictionary is and was supposed to be differed from the academic viewpoint. The press balked that it would include words like "ain't" without labeling them "substandard" or "colloquial", etc. Non-linguist reviewers raved that the dictionary would lead to English becoming degenerate, etc. etc. But the lexicographic world immediately hailed it as a milestone, and time has certainly vindicated it. The age of the "unabridged" print dictionary has passed, but it's still a classic work.

Anyhow, that's perhaps off-topic. Language changes. Every person uses language differently. Sensitivity to those differences is a good thing, living in the social world that we do. But you can't judge others based on their vocabulary alone. Good point, Johpa.