Israel declares seven-hour Gaza truce

[Ulysses G.]

How about a terrorist army? They don't wear uniforms, target civilians, use terrorist tactics and delight in their own people being killed. I don't know what else to call them.

[joepublic]

The IDF does kill civilians deliberately - I don't see any uniforms on the people they kill, or are we just supposed to take their word for it. All they have to do is apply the label "militant' (what ever that means), and the target becomes legitimate.

Using your logic, Hamas can also claim to be targeting military targets, but due to the technological limitations of their weapons, the low accuracy causes regrettable collateral damage.

The whole idea of the terrorist label takes us away from the facts that people will resist by all means necessary, including their own lives if they must. It creates a false equivalency between the IDF and Hamas.

You do not see uniforms on Palestinian casualties because Hamas does not always wear uniforms (although they do sometimes use IDF uniforms when raiding into Israel), and because Hamas policy is not to admit to militants deaths unless there's simply no denying it. Apparently, you are happy with taking their word for it.

If you suppose that all casualties are civilians, then the IDF is probably the lousiest army ever, and I do not think that is a claim that goes down well when applying the other common Palestinian argument about being an underdog pitted against the might of the Israel. Also, there would be questions regarding those Palestinian "civilians" killed while popping out of tunnels leading into Israel, for example. Don't let the facts confuse you, though.

Hamas does not claim to target military facilities much, and does not make a fuss when it hits civilian targets. There are no internal inquiries when this happens. The technological argument presented is bogus - firing low accuracy weapons into civilian areas is considered problematic in the eyes of international law - exactly the sort of thing Israel is criticized about right now (but not that much of the same criticism applied to Hamas).

So, in your world, there are no terrorists?

A terrorist is someone who creates terror - armies or individuals can do this. Therefore the IDF and the resistance can be called terrorists if you want to debate a word. The IDF, Mossad, MI5, the CIA and Al Quieda, Abu Sayyaf have all targeted and killed civilians, so whats the point in the word terrorist?

The rest of your argument assumes a moral, organizational and military equivalence between the IDF and the civilian population resisting the occupation - as if they have the same resources and choices - they don't - and that's the big Zionist lie I'm trying to draw attention to.

That is your own definition of what a terrorist is. I doubt if it is accepted globally.

One thing we can be sure of, because of the evident world reaction, with huge demonstrations, and the outrage of politicians and ordinary people, is what the world thinks of Israel.

Bury your head in the sand as much as you want, be a reality-denier as much as you like, but globally, Israel is being condemned. That says it all.

[Ulysses G.]

Israel has always been unfairly criticized and the press has made it very clear that these demonstrations were dominated, by anti-Semites - neo-Nazis and Islamic hate groups. No other country in the world would allow thousand of rockets to be shot at them.

There is nothing new here and the usual public hypocrisy will make little difference in the long run.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[joepublic]

Israel has always been unfairly criticized and the press has made it very clear that these demonstrations were dominated, by anti-Semites - neo-Nazis and Islamic hate groups. No other country in the world would allow thousand of rockets to be shot at them.

There is nothing new here and the usual public hypocrisy will make little difference in the long run.

UC has been discredited so many times, yet continues to repost the same tired propaganda points, over and over. I used to think he was smart, but misguided. Now I simply think he is prolific but repetetive.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't know who "UC" is but why don't you point out where he has been "discredited" instead of just making unsubstantiated claims. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't have much faith in your myopic opinions.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

Your attempt to justify this action under the cloak of democracy is a disgrace.

Putting a stop to the thousands of rockets and mortars fired into Israel is all the justification needed for this campaign. The civilian deaths are the responsibility of Hamas.

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....before Netanyahu had his tantrum on June 12th. Deny that fact if you can or do a Mark Regev and spin it with stats from other periods of the conflict.

The deal Netanyahu is looking for now had more chance of success during the detente of early June, before he started the present round of violence. Netanyahu has the blood of 67 Israelis on his hands.

The man who pulls the trigger is responsible for the death of 400 innocent children...think about it.

[Ulysses G.]

Your attempt to justify this action under the cloak of democracy is a disgrace.

Putting a stop to the thousands of rockets and mortars fired into Israel is all the justification needed for this campaign. The civilian deaths are the responsibility of Hamas.

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

Israel has always been unfairly criticized and the press has made it very clear that these demonstrations were dominated, by anti-Semites - neo-Nazis and Islamic hate groups. No other country in the world would allow thousand of rockets to be shot at them.

There is nothing new here and the usual public hypocrisy will make little difference in the long run.

Netanyahu started this present round of murderous collective punishment against the whole population of Gaza, ostensibly targeting the Hamas leadership, without a shred of evidence that they had ordered the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli teens. But ...but..he claims they were Hamas “affiliates”.

Netanyahu moved the goalposts a few years ago introducing a new precondition and obstacle to peace talks that Palestinians must recognize the Jewish State of Israel.

So by your logic does that make the Jews of Europe “affiliates” of the Jewish State of Israel?

Netanyahu has created a global PR disaster for Israel and is responsible for an increase in antisemitism world wide.

[dexterm]

Your attempt to justify this action under the cloak of democracy is a disgrace.

Putting a stop to the thousands of rockets and mortars fired into Israel is all the justification needed for this campaign. The civilian deaths are the responsibility of Hamas.

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

I notice you don't address my point [nothing new there then] that the rockets had dried to a trickle, one a week in the 3 weeks prior to the psychopath Netanyahu spitting the dummy.

It just seems odd doesn't it that Israel didn't launch a campaign of Stop the Rockets months ago, but instead chose a period when they had virtually ceased anyway....sort of like Israel wanted to escalate a situation in the midst of detente.

[Ulysses G.]

I did address your point. There were plenty of rockets before and after the three week period where they "only" fired two rockets. Israel was perfectly justified in putting a stop to it at any point that they felt it was necessary to do so.

[Johpa]

How about a terrorist army? They don't wear uniforms, target civilians, use terrorist tactics and delight in their own people being killed. I don't know what else to call them.

I think the term Jihadist encapsulates their essence better than the term terrorists.

[Ulysses G.]

Good enough.

[dexterm]

I did address your point. There were plenty of rockets before and after the three week period where they "only" fired two rockets. Israel was perfectly justified in putting a stop to it at any point that they felt it was necessary to do so.

So you agree then that in the 3 weeks prior to Operation Brothers Keeper the rockets had reduced to a trickle of one per week. Thank you..it’s like pulling teeth sometimes getting admissions out of you.

It seems a very strange time indeed for Israel to launch a major provocative operation against Hamas when they had virtually already achieved their objective of stopping the rockets.

What a wonderful time that period of detente would have been for indirect talks with Hamas to stop the rockets completely in return for a gradual easing of the blockade.

Diplomacy will ultimately produce a more lasting peace than war, which was a global PR disaster for Israel, creating bitterness and a new generation of fighters.

[joepublic]

How about a terrorist army? They don't wear uniforms, target civilians, use terrorist tactics and delight in their own people being killed. I don't know what else to call them.

I think the term Jihadist encapsulates their essence better than the term terrorists.

How about Resistance, Freedom Fighter, Anti Occupation Forces....

[joepublic]

Good enough.

As long as its not the truth, its good enough for you

[Ulysses G.]

Do you ever post anything other than stupid insults?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

The reason for Neta-Nut-Job to escalate, is that he wanted stop the improving relations between Fatah and Hamas.

You mean that he did not want a terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of Israel to be part of a unity government? Why ever would that be?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[joepublic]

I did address your point. There were plenty of rockets before and after the three week period where they "only" fired two rockets. Israel was perfectly justified in putting a stop to it at any point that they felt it was necessary to do so.

Rockets and resistance are justified as long as there is occupation and collective punishment. They are a response that is completely predictable while the Zionists continue to carry out war crime and human right abuses

[Morch]

You do not see uniforms on Palestinian casualties because Hamas does not always wear uniforms (although they do sometimes use IDF uniforms when raiding into Israel), and because Hamas policy is not to admit to militants deaths unless there's simply no denying it. Apparently, you are happy with taking their word for it.

If you suppose that all casualties are civilians, then the IDF is probably the lousiest army ever, and I do not think that is a claim that goes down well when applying the other common Palestinian argument about being an underdog pitted against the might of the Israel. Also, there would be questions regarding those Palestinian "civilians" killed while popping out of tunnels leading into Israel, for example. Don't let the facts confuse you, though.

Hamas does not claim to target military facilities much, and does not make a fuss when it hits civilian targets. There are no internal inquiries when this happens. The technological argument presented is bogus - firing low accuracy weapons into civilian areas is considered problematic in the eyes of international law - exactly the sort of thing Israel is criticized about right now (but not that much of the same criticism applied to Hamas).

So, in your world, there are no terrorists?

A terrorist is someone who creates terror - armies or individuals can do this. Therefore the IDF and the resistance can be called terrorists if you want to debate a word. The IDF, Mossad, MI5, the CIA and Al Quieda, Abu Sayyaf have all targeted and killed civilians, so whats the point in the word terrorist?

The rest of your argument assumes a moral, organizational and military equivalence between the IDF and the civilian population resisting the occupation - as if they have the same resources and choices - they don't - and that's the big Zionist lie I'm trying to draw attention to.

That is your own definition of what a terrorist is. I doubt if it is accepted globally.

One thing we can be sure of, because of the evident world reaction, with huge demonstrations, and the outrage of politicians and ordinary people, is what the world thinks of Israel.

Bury your head in the sand as much as you want, be a reality-denier as much as you like, but globally, Israel is being condemned. That says it all.

So you managed to cut a line out of my post. Well done.

I do not think, nor stated, that world reaction is supportive of Israel.

At the same time I do not think that Hamas itself is seen as legit as you would like to think.

Hamas and the people of Gaza are not necessarily the very same thing.

[Jingthing]

...

You can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Good cliche.

Here's another one:

[Morch]

Israel has always been unfairly criticized and the press has made it very clear that these demonstrations were dominated, by anti-Semites - neo-Nazis and Islamic hate groups. No other country in the world would allow thousand of rockets to be shot at them.

There is nothing new here and the usual public hypocrisy will make little difference in the long run.

Netanyahu started this present round of murderous collective punishment against the whole population of Gaza, ostensibly targeting the Hamas leadership, without a shred of evidence that they had ordered the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli teens. But ...but..he claims they were Hamas “affiliates”.

Netanyahu moved the goalposts a few years ago introducing a new precondition and obstacle to peace talks that Palestinians must recognize the Jewish State of Israel.

So by your logic does that make the Jews of Europe “affiliates” of the Jewish State of Israel?

Netanyahu has created a global PR disaster for Israel and is responsible for an increase in antisemitism world wide.

About that shred of evidence:

Hamas in Gaza funded June kidnap and murder of three teens, Israel says

The state said Wednesday that Hamas operatives in Gaza funded the June kidnapping and murder of three teens in the West Bank, the event that led up to Israel’s four-week Gaza offensive.

The funding aspect was revealed in a reply to a petition against the demolition of the homes of the three men suspected of the kidnapping and murder.

The state named Hussam Qawasmeh as the leader of the cell; the Shin Bet security service had previously suspected that Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisheh were the leaders. Last month, the police’s counterterrorism unit arrested Hussam Qawasmeh at the home of relatives in the Shoafat refugee camp in East Jerusalem.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609167

[Morch]

I did address your point. There were plenty of rockets before and after the three week period where they "only" fired two rockets. Israel was perfectly justified in putting a stop to it at any point that they felt it was necessary to do so.

So you agree then that in the 3 weeks prior to Operation Brothers Keeper the rockets had reduced to a trickle of one per week. Thank you..it’s like pulling teeth sometimes getting admissions out of you.

It seems a very strange time indeed for Israel to launch a major provocative operation against Hamas when they had virtually already achieved their objective of stopping the rockets.

What a wonderful time that period of detente would have been for indirect talks with Hamas to stop the rockets completely in return for a gradual easing of the blockade.

Diplomacy will ultimately produce a more lasting peace than war, which was a global PR disaster for Israel, creating bitterness and a new generation of fighters.

Was Hamas offering any such talks at the time? Or open for negotiations?

Were there other factors related to the current conflagration, or is it your learned assessment that this was all an Israeli

ploy to have a go at Hamas?

[Morch]

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

I notice you don't address my point [nothing new there then] that the rockets had dried to a trickle, one a week in the 3 weeks prior to the psychopath Netanyahu spitting the dummy.

It just seems odd doesn't it that Israel didn't launch a campaign of Stop the Rockets months ago, but instead chose a period when they had virtually ceased anyway....sort of like Israel wanted to escalate a situation in the midst of detente.

The reason for Neta-Nut-Job to escalate, is that he wanted stop the improving relations between Fatah and Hamas. He wanted to stop any unity taking place in the occupied territories. Classic divide and conquer, even if that meant using the deaths of the teenager as a Trojan horse.

When the tragic kidnapping of the three teenagers happened, he used that as an excuse to attack Hamas, even though he KNEW Hamas were innocent. The rockets have never been the reason, but its a great diversion to throw.

That's why there is no point getting into debates with the likes of UG - their tactic is to spout irrelevant facts, with zero context, and then send you off to expend energy to explain to him what he already knows,

The designs of the Zionists of an Upper Israel is the problem, not the rockets. And Neta-Nut-Job will sacrifice his own civilians as well as those of Palestine to achieve this.

Right, them Israelis manipulating everything again. Don't let the facts regarding difficulties in the reconciliation process deter you from having a clear vision of Israeli nastiness. Don't let the fact that the Palestinians do have a rather lively domestic politics scene, and quite intense internal struggles shatter your faith in Israel being at the root of it all. Common logic is also a hindrance, it would seem - actually easier for Israel to derail the peace process with Hamas as part of Palestinian government (the whole no recognition of Israel and armed struggle bit is a big no no as far as core agreements go).

The Hamas...innocent. That would be, quite probably, one of the oddest combinations I have ever seen on this matter. I do not think anyone made this claim before. Well done, yet again. Besides the kidnappers definitely being Hamas affiliated, and Hamas leadership openly praising the kidnapping, there's also this latest bit:

Hamas in Gaza funded June kidnap and murder of three teens, Israel says

The state said Wednesday that Hamas operatives in Gaza funded the June kidnapping and murder of three teens in the West Bank, the event that led up to Israel’s four-week Gaza offensive.

The funding aspect was revealed in a reply to a petition against the demolition of the homes of the three men suspected of the kidnapping and murder.

The state named Hussam Qawasmeh as the leader of the cell; the Shin Bet security service had previously suspected that Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisheh were the leaders. Last month, the police’s counterterrorism unit arrested Hussam Qawasmeh at the home of relatives in the Shoafat refugee camp in East Jerusalem.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609167

By the way, what is an "Upper Israel"?

[kblaze]

About that shred of evidence:

Hamas in Gaza funded June kidnap and murder of three teens, Israel says

The state said Wednesday that Hamas operatives in Gaza funded the June kidnapping and murder of three teens in the West Bank, the event that led up to Israel’s four-week Gaza offensive.

The funding aspect was revealed in a reply to a petition against the demolition of the homes of the three men suspected of the kidnapping and murder.

The state named Hussam Qawasmeh as the leader of the cell; the Shin Bet security service had previously suspected that Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisheh were the leaders. Last month, the police’s counterterrorism unit arrested Hussam Qawasmeh at the home of relatives in the Shoafat refugee camp in East Jerusalem.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609167

1) The article specifically says "Hamas operatives in gaza" helped fund the kidnapping. So yes, you can say Hamas was involved, but there is still no evidence senior leadership were involved or even knew. I think its particularly telling the Hamas didn't publicly take credit for the kidnapping as they have for other kidnappings. Now it could also be that they just wanted to keep a low profile...but that doesn't seem to be their typical calling card.

2) The confession that he received funding was done under interrogation from shin bet. Take that with a grain of salt; could be completely honest, could also be made under duress, none of us know.

3) I'm curious how much money they actually needed to kidnap the teens? I guess maybe they needed money to buy a car? Buy guns? I'm just thinking out loud here, but I never envisioned the kidnapping as a complex, expensive "operation". But what the hell do I know.

[Morch]

I did address your point. There were plenty of rockets before and after the three week period where they "only" fired two rockets. Israel was perfectly justified in putting a stop to it at any point that they felt it was necessary to do so.

Rockets and resistance are justified as long as there is occupation and collective punishment. They are a response that is completely predictable while the Zionists continue to carry out war crime and human right abuses

Actually, the launching of rockets is not deemed as justified, nor as in being in accordance with international law pertaining to these matters.

[up-country_sinclair]

Israel has always been unfairly criticized and the press has made it very clear that these demonstrations were dominated, by anti-Semites - neo-Nazis and Islamic hate groups.

Utter tripe. From start to finish.

And you also managed to insert the Hasbara-bot trifecta at the end of the sentence.

[Ulysses G.]

I think this is semantics. Israeli youth certainly know that their country faces external threats and military defense of those threats involves killing enemy forces.

Exactly. I did not mean that it was taught formally.

[Morch]

About that shred of evidence:

Hamas in Gaza funded June kidnap and murder of three teens, Israel says

The state said Wednesday that Hamas operatives in Gaza funded the June kidnapping and murder of three teens in the West Bank, the event that led up to Israel’s four-week Gaza offensive.

The funding aspect was revealed in a reply to a petition against the demolition of the homes of the three men suspected of the kidnapping and murder.

The state named Hussam Qawasmeh as the leader of the cell; the Shin Bet security service had previously suspected that Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisheh were the leaders. Last month, the police’s counterterrorism unit arrested Hussam Qawasmeh at the home of relatives in the Shoafat refugee camp in East Jerusalem.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609167

1) The article specifically says "Hamas operatives in gaza" helped fund the kidnapping. So yes, you can say Hamas was involved, but there is still no evidence senior leadership were involved or even knew. I think its particularly telling the Hamas didn't publicly take credit for the kidnapping as they have for other kidnappings. Now it could also be that they just wanted to keep a low profile...but that doesn't seem to be their typical calling card.

2) The confession that he received funding was done under interrogation from shin bet. Take that with a grain of salt; could be completely honest, could also be made under duress, none of us know.

3) I'm curious how much money they actually needed to kidnap the teens? I guess maybe they needed money to buy a car? Buy guns? I'm just thinking out loud here, but I never envisioned the kidnapping as a complex, expensive "operation". But what the hell do I know.

Intentionally quoted only the Haaretz article, as seemingly it is sort of accepted to represent positions not supportive of the current Israeli government. There are further details in other media sources which to tie the kidnapping operation to specific leaders of Hamas (these reports have been around since almost day one, btw).

Implying that the confession was made under illegal duress can be made, but in that could be applied to any investigation anywhere. If one is in the opinion that this should be taken with a grain of salt, than why place so much trust in Hamas's denials over involvement in the kidnapping? I suggest that if this story was picked up by Haaretz without similar comments added, it could be quite legit.

As for funds - piece of land to hide the bodies, a car, weapons, fake documents for getaway and a reward. Probably some compensation for family as well. Could easily stack up to a considerable sum.

[metisdead]

A racist hate speech post has been removed as well as the replies.

[Johpa]

I think the term Jihadist encapsulates their essence better than the term terrorists.

How about Resistance, Freedom Fighter, Anti Occupation Forces....

Now that is a laugh. Hamas did resist competition from the Palestinian Authority (PA) by executing approximately 600 PA activists. There has been no occupation of Gaza for years. And freedom is an anathema to orthodox interpretations of Islam. You have no real comprehension of Hamas or the larger Salafi movement.