Only 9 Chinese cities reach air quality standards

[P45Mustang]

^

You improve your chances if ALL the population has representation in government.

Ask a Uighur or a Tibetan.

[LawrenceChee]

^^^good one, but a kind of hypocrisy I've noticed with the powers-that-be in the PRC (and Russia for that matter) that is not present in the PTB in the US is: they use the state propaganda channels to build up hatred for foreign countries such as in the west, all the while moving their assets and lives over to those countries, taking advantage of their systems, etc. Rather ironic, eh? I think reporting on this is what got Washington Post and NYT blocked by the censors there. I guess there is no way for the censors to block out the air quality standards, though.

I don't think the western press have ever been very kind of the east either and paints them in a negative light for maximum media coverage

It's ironic as well while the media have been painting China in the same brush ...they also have no qualms moving all of their toxic factories production there so that the pollution is not at home

I sincerely invite anyone to visit a factory in Dongguan Guangzhou which is the hub of manufacturing for the world

Take a deep breathe of the air there ...and if you have not already detected the metal tint in the air

walk into one of the factories making your $1 party streamers you find at target and Walmart ....have a look at the faces of the Chinese bent over the desks making them for 10-12 hours and imagine the irony of them watching a pirated DVD of the TV series friends and imagining life in walking at the aisle of Walmart buying this ....

What happen to OSHA or USPH ? Where's the factory inspectors ?

Why would the manufacturers offer only $0.06 to the factory owner per piece to make this product ? What would you expect the owner to pay the workers ...

Why can't the civilized west pay the proper price to make this product in a safe way ?

The reality is the irony of ignoring the bad is easy when it's not in your own backyard

[P45Mustang]

^

Blaming the West for China's environmental problems is a bit of a stretch imho.

[LawrenceChee]

^

You improve your chances if ALL the population has representation in government.

Ask a Uighur or a Tibetan.

I see ...the reality of that "unified fairness of decision making "may mean no decisions ever made ...

Using a small example of Amtrak and it's diminishing role in USA ...imagine for one moment the Chinese government seeked feedback from a groups where to build their fast railway for progression and economic expansion

I would guarantee you the railway will not be built at all as they will take 1000 years to argue if not more ...the communist agreed it had to be done and it was done ...again the common good decision making model vs trying to make it fair for everyone

USA has 2 dominant party groups to represent the country and they cannot agree on most things if you believe what's on tv ...how does 600 groups make it any easier to make any state or country or federal decisions ?

[Credo]

Typical. It is the Wests fault that the country is polluted? China can make it's own laws and that includes laws about safety and minimum wages. They have made a choice and it is an informed choice. Many western countries experienced severe problems with pollution and great expense in cleaning it up. Perhaps China could benefit from that experience, if they chose to.

I don't buy goods or food from China unless I have no option. It has nothing to do with the Chinese, it has to do with the inferior nature of so many of the products.

[LawrenceChee]

^

Blaming the West for China's environmental problems is a bit of a stretch imho.

I respectfully disagree ...walk through one of your local Walmart ....take every non food product $5 or lesser and flip it and see where it's made

Odds are 90% is in china ...imagine all of those cheap factories closed ...would you not think immediately there would be a change in the air quality and water pollution index ? I think there would be

No one is blaming the west alone as other parts of Asia have been buying the same product ...there are tons of 30 baht toys made in china in your local Talat

The reality is to stop importing those means more factories will re-open in USA for jobs with the correct union protection USPH OSHA ...PPE protection ...mandated minimum wages ...union breaks

The price will move back to a more correct socially responsible prove tag of $15-30 per item and reduce wasteful consumption

Do I hear anyone taking a deep breath and making that bold move ? Go ahead ...lobby your congressman to do the right thing and bring the jobs home to USA.

[P45Mustang]

China would be a very much healthier place for everybody if they adopted a system of a democratically elected government and environmental protection practices as adopted by developed countries.

But it's early days. China is only now catching up with the outside world.

One day it might happen. Unlikely it will be in the time frame of Xi Jinping's leadership.

[LawrenceChee]

China would be a very much healthier place for everybody if they adopted a system of a democratically elected government and environmental protection practices as adopted by developed countries.

But it's early days. China is only now catching up with the outside world.

One day it might happen. Unlikely it will be in the time frame of Xi Jinping's leadership.

Good observations

You are right it won't happen in Xi leadership ...China is adopting practices and slowing ambling along to see what will fit for them and it will take a lot of time

Hong Kong is an experiment with free speech , protests voting ...what does that mean when translated into 1.3 billion ...Macau used for gambling hub to see the revenue vs the social ills ...Shenyang heavy industries and car making and it's corresponding pollution index and you are right it's early days what it means to the Chinese

Democratically elected government is an ideal in the west. In the east it may not be held in the same regard of importance as Asians are in general very cynical of governments

[P45Mustang]

^

You improve your chances if ALL the population has representation in government.

Ask a Uighur or a Tibetan.

I see ...the reality of that "unified fairness of decision making "may mean no decisions ever made ...

Using a small example of Amtrak and it's diminishing role in USA ...imagine for one moment the Chinese government seeked feedback from a groups where to build their fast railway for progression and economic expansion

I would guarantee you the railway will not be built at all as they will take 1000 years to argue if not more ...the communist agreed it had to be done and it was done ...again the common good decision making model vs trying to make it fair for everyone

USA has 2 dominant party groups to represent the country and they cannot agree on most things if you believe what's on tv ...how does 600 groups make it any easier to make any state or country or federal decisions ?

Precisely. It's called the state steamroller. Lowest common denominator mentality emanating from 12 powerful men in Beijing.

[P45Mustang]

China would be a very much healthier place for everybody if they adopted a system of a democratically elected government and environmental protection practices as adopted by developed countries.

But it's early days. China is only now catching up with the outside world.

One day it might happen. Unlikely it will be in the time frame of Xi Jinping's leadership.

Good observations

You are right it won't happen in Xi leadership ...China is adopting practices and slowing ambling along to see what will fit for them and it will take a lot of time

Hong Kong is an experiment with free speech , protests voting ...what does that mean when translated into 1.3 billion ...Macau used for gambling hub to see the revenue vs the social ills ...Shenyang heavy industries and car making and it's corresponding pollution index and you are right it's early days what it means to the Chinese

Democratically elected government is an ideal in the west. In the east it may not be held in the same regard of importance as Asians are in general very cynical of governments

Why?

Because the CCP leadership do not want to relinquish power.

You may be able to build railways quickly, but getting up to speed with modern society doesn't seem to be China's strong suit.

China will of course continue to do it their way.

[P45Mustang]

^

You improve your chances if ALL the population has representation in government.

Ask a Uighur or a Tibetan.

I see ...the reality of that "unified fairness of decision making "may mean no decisions ever made ...

Using a small example of Amtrak and it's diminishing role in USA ...imagine for one moment the Chinese government seeked feedback from a groups where to build their fast railway for progression and economic expansion

I would guarantee you the railway will not be built at all as they will take 1000 years to argue if not more ...the communist agreed it had to be done and it was done ...again the common good decision making model vs trying to make it fair for everyone

USA has 2 dominant party groups to represent the country and they cannot agree on most things if you believe what's on tv ...how does 600 groups make it any easier to make any state or country or federal decisions ?

Precisely. It's called the state steamroller. Lowest common denominator mentality emanating from 12 powerful men in Beijing.

Mao tried the same thing.

Got it badly wrong though didn't he, cos 30-50 million died from starvation while Japan were flourishing.

Then we have the pragmatism of Deng Xiaoping.

Then we have Xi Jinping and Chinese shovelling food into their mouth and buying Gucci handbags and gold in case there's another famine.

Toxic. Ecologically, socially and politically.

[P45Mustang]

Everybody got the correct drift?

[P45Mustang]

Well that seems to have shut the CCP-PRC apologist up for the moment.

[LawrenceChee]

Well that seems to have shut the CCP-PRC apologist up for the moment.

Our asian upbringing of manners dictate we hold my comments instead of retorting rubbish with impolite comments ...it sounds rather degrading to use one brains this way.

[P45Mustang]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

[squarethecircle]

"Toxic. Ecologically, socially and politically. "

I had the same thought when I was travelling around China. The outward pollution is like a physical manifestation of the inside dirtiness. And that's no reflection on the average Chinese of whom 80% are good people (like anywhere) but at the core it is dirty bullies, just a somewhat less crazy version of their cousin in North Korea. And judging by the attitudes of those heading abroad, or towards HK/etc. etc., they are expecting the rest of the world to adapt to them and accept their rule rather than acclimate to the world. Very stupid but I am confident, despite all the BS propaganda about the evil foreigners persecuting poor little China, that China will have high demand for foreign educators for the next century - my great grand-dad taught in China 100 years ago until the Nipponese invaded and my inbox is full of ESL adverts even though I am not in that business.

Edited August 19, 2014 by squarethecircle

[P45Mustang]

"Toxic. Ecologically, socially and politically. "

I had the same thought when I was travelling around China. The outward pollution is like a physical manifestation of the inside dirtiness. And that's no reflection on the average Chinese of whom 80% are good people (like anywhere) but at the core it is dirty bullies, just a somewhat less crazy version of their cousin in North Korea. And judging by the attitudes of those heading abroad, or towards HK/etc. etc., they are expecting the rest of the world to adapt to them and accept their rule rather than acclimate to the world. Very stupid but I am confident, despite all the BS propaganda about the evil foreigners persecuting poor little China, that China will have high demand for foreign educators for the next century - my great grand-dad taught in China 100 years ago until the Nipponese invaded and my inbox is full of ESL adverts even though I am not in that business.

I have sympathy for that view, based on knowledge not prejudice.

Good Morning from London where the air is OK and birds continue to fly in the sky.

[LawrenceChee]

The learned among us understand no one culture or country is superior and the consensus built is China is a world partner like everybody else and it's in everyone interest to learn more about them, culturally and what makes them tick and as much the leadership of china is engaging the rest of the world and understanding it better and seeing how china needs to adapt to respect those countries too.

The world is not built the same and when there are differences , it should be judged as differences however when words such as toxic and evil are used or general hate generating comments are directed ...it's shallow as every country modern or developing have social , human rights , economic and trade / border problems and it's naive to think one deserves more flak than another.

When one makes personal observations about a bus load of tourists or a few trips into the country and claim to understand everything it's rather a broad judgement call more than an accurate description

Remember it's about scale ...1% of china visiting your country is 130 million tourists and depending on which state they are from...some are still learning social graces and tourist etiquette and some are very cultured and you may not see them at your sphere of influence

Those who have been tolerant and understanding and forgiving goes a long way in seeing the Chinese reciprocate in kindness and understanding and learning something new and in turn understand each other better

I was in Dallas airport the other day and there was about 400 Chinese tourists lined up in immigration ...one CBP officer was obnoxious and making it difficult for the Chinese as they pass thru and they were muttering how rude the USA people are ...the alternative line had a lady who was patient and smiling and she had old people bowing and smiling back with respect ...

for the 40-50 who passed thru that obnoxious one they will walk home and share their experiences with their friends about their impressions and it's a wrong one if they thought every person in USA is a lout or uncouth person because I know from personal experience not all of them all although I have my reservations about airports and TSA in general and I hope they enjoyed their shopping

[P45Mustang]

LawrenceChee is up to his old tricks.

[P45Mustang]

The learned among us understand no one culture or country is superior and the consensus built is China is a world partner like everybody else

Chinese leadership are NOT interested in partnership with the outside world. They are interested in domination. The self proclaimed "Middle Kingdom" epitomises a mentality of superiority. The industrial revolution now taking place in China ( the subject of this thread ) is something which developed countries experienced long ago. China, because they got left behind are now hell bent on catching up. The motivation to catch up is clouding minds as well as the air.

Toxicity:

1.Environmental. No developed country would allow a situation to arise where 14,000 dead pigs are found floating in a river.

Pollution of the air, water and earth in China is a major environmental issue. Fact. Hydroelectric power to fuel China is likely to be environmentally damaging to neighbouring countries. Air pollution in NE China is doing Japan no favours.

2. Social. A society where people do not have brothers or sisters is highly questionable from a behavioural psychologist's viewpoint.

There is no belief system that is tolerated in China other than the all powerful CCP state. This, in the Roman Calendar year of 2014, and the Buddhist Calendar year of 2557 etc.

3. Political. 12 powerful men in Beijing accountable to nobody. Led by Xi Jinping, the outward face of Chinese modernity and partnership with the World.

China needs a serious clean up Mr Chee before it does serious damage outside the borders of the Middle Kingdom. And we haven't mentioned territorial occupation of the South China Sea yet, have we.

As for the rest of your post and the deflectionary point about a warm welcome at immigration, I'd choose border control at New York JFK, London Heathrow, or Bangkok Suvarnabhum way ahead of Beijing Capital.

Edited August 19, 2014 by P45Mustang

[craigt3365]

A series of off topic posts have been removed from view. Please stay on topic and no personal attacks.

[LawrenceChee]

Chinese has no rights for an equal and right speech as long as the bashing is one way . That's the truth even in a forum.

Great. Free speech by western standards at its best

[boomerangutang]

Shenzhen is clean? I thought there were 1,000 plastics factories at that city. Do the air-quality tests gauge plastic/toxin residue as well as other particulates? How about dried wind-blown fecal matter from dogs and other animals? Asbestos dust from vehicle brakes?

Speaking of plastic, there's the 'Pacific Trash Vortex' comprised of a Texas-sized layer of plastic goop, averaging 3 meters thick, floating just below the ocean's surface (what settles lower down? we don't know). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to fathom that the vast majority of that non-degradable plastic trash

comes from China. Not just its sea coast regions, but also its rivers.

Only 9 cities and Lhasa isn't really Chinese.

When the list goes down to 1 city (next year, perhaps?), Lhasa will be the last one.

[squarethecircle]

"China needs a serious clean up Mr Chee before it does serious damage outside the borders of the Middle Kingdom. And we haven't mentioned territorial occupation of the South China Sea yet, have we."

Certainly, I was in Shan State of Myanmar a few weeks ago and it seems like mining companies based out of Yunnan have ripped up the countryside there as well. Locals remain on a few dollars a day salary, meanwhile the resources have been yanked out of the ground, pollution is left behind, and nobody benefits besides (I'm guessing) some crooked local officials, and I guess the CEO's up in Kunming. So much for "Asia for Asians".

[LawrenceChee]

Shenzhen is clean? I thought there were 1,000 plastics factories at that city. Do the air-quality tests gauge plastic/toxin residue as well as other particulates? How about dried wind-blown fecal matter from dogs and other animals? Asbestos dust from vehicle brakes?

Speaking of plastic, there's the 'Pacific Trash Vortex' comprised of a Texas-sized layer of plastic goop, averaging 3 meters thick, floating just below the ocean's surface (what settles lower down? we don't know). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to fathom that the vast majority of that non-degradable plastic trash

comes from China. Not just its sea coast regions, but also its rivers.

Only 9 cities and Lhasa isn't really Chinese.

When the list goes down to 1 city (next year, perhaps?), Lhasa will be the last one.

Agree

All are in bad shape. We need to stop cheap production and move them out and back.

Everyone needs to pay for responsibly manufactured products like an iPhone or Samsung Galaxy 5 ...China is fully capable of making quality products that are environmentally friendly to the world and more importantly to china and the people who all it home

We now need the countries who are buying cheap stuff and demanding them and negotiating to stop.

Like all the environmental posters say " when the buying stop, the killing stops too"

[squarethecircle]

"Everyone needs to pay for responsibly manufactured products like an iPhone or Samsung Galaxy 5 ...China is fully capable of making quality products that are environmentally friendly to the world and more importantly to china and the people who all it home

We now need the countries who are buying cheap stuff and demanding them and negotiating to stop."

Problem is most or all of China's best and brightest have fled abroad (along with plenty of crooks from the CPC and the like). The country does not have innovation (does not improve products like neighbouring east Asian nations S Korea and Japan) so what remains is cheap products produced by what amounts to slave labor, together with the sort of corrupt local structures and lack of environmental protections that make this possible. PRC's treatment of the environment even in neighbouring countries like in SE Asia shows that it is an internal issue, not the fault of the "white devils" you seen so keen to strike revenge on, Mr. Chee.

[lovetotravel]

It's not up to the consumers. They'll spend their dollars as efficiently as possible. It's up to the governments to make sure things are done properly. If that means a product is produced at cost of, say, 30% more, then so be it. These environmental problems have all been created by China.

I don't agree that China's best and brightest have left. From what I've seen on my trips there, and meeting with a variety of business people, many Chinese are coming back from overseas and making big money. But yes, perhaps a lack of innovation.

[squarethecircle]

"I don't agree that China's best and brightest have left. From what I've seen on my trips there, and meeting with a variety of business people, many Chinese are coming back from overseas and making big money. But yes, perhaps a lack of innovation."

Question is, what are they making the money doing? There's opportunities in terms of the vast population willing to work for slave wages, plus corruption/lack of controls and the like. I know a few are doing honest business and contributing something to humankind, but I think this is the minority and it is difficult for them due to the thieving culture in PRC (I read that 10 cent stole the WeChat technology from the actual innovator who saw nothing from it, as 10Cent had better "connections" or knew where to place the bribes in other words), Most of the actual innovators are outside of the country, and they've seen a further exodus since HK went back under mainland control. I maintain one of the great "successes" of the criminals running the country has been chasing their best and brightest away, certainly good for the west they are so fond of demonizing.

[lovetotravel]

The ones I've met are working for multi-nationals. Many are MBA types, all higher level jobs.

[LawrenceChee]

It's not up to the consumers. They'll spend their dollars as efficiently as possible. It's up to the governments to make sure things are done properly. If that means a product is produced at cost of, say, 30% more, then so be it. These environmental problems have all been created by China.

I don't agree that China's best and brightest have left. From what I've seen on my trips there, and meeting with a variety of business people, many Chinese are coming back from overseas and making big money. But yes, perhaps a lack of innovation.

This is an interesting view. China is at a crossroad ; if they adopt tough measures of stopping cheap production they need to balance out jobs reduction, international decry over a crackdown and also protecting their environment.

That's a hard juggler considering their current position trying to transit and slow the economy down to a domestic consumption model that the top leadership envision

I remember when some top brand names were in Guangzhou for the annual intentional trade show this year and basically muscling in the contract manufacturing jobs by offering the lowest and they were companies desperate enough to say yes and complete the contracts signing

I think when it comes to Chinese they really lack innovation, however they learn quick on how to do something faster , cheaper and better and this is exploited in all angels by all nations / MNCs who depend on them now to manufacture and do it without care of the environment and this has to stop.

Whenever I return to my favorite city of hangzhou , I lament the loss of the lush tea plantations annually which produces the fine trip of longjing tea which tea lovers appreciate and it make me angry enough to point this out to the local administration , they need to stop producing more hotels and resorts and focus on driving expensive ones to minimize mass tourism and the cheap Charlie's.

There are also rare exceptions such as Xiaomi which is currently thumping Apple and Samsung in China and no the No 1 Handphone company in china done in a short span of 4 years.

However from a respect point , I am unsure if many know them ...they don't figure internationally as they have basically done what Apple and Samsung cannot do ...make an apple look alike phone satisfying this who loves Apple design with android capabilities for those frustrated by the Apple iOS restrictions and done it a price point not matches by the giants and slaying their market share with their 4th model and again on the span of 4 years

Is that innovation and people would hail their CEO or would it be accused by the west of copying ?

The Chinese are best at copying a product and asking internal questions on how to do it better and they have learned quickly studying apple and marketing techniques from USA which I believe is still the best in mass consumerism marketing and making people need something.

On a side note , the recent CCP internal article is proposing harsher penalties including family prosecution however I only fear this will not go down well with the international community who will probably label as a trample of human rights.