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Posted

Hello

I am looking for some advice on applying for a visitors visa for my thai g/f. I have already received plenty of good advice just by reading back over previous topics in this forum. I would also like to say that I am really impressed by the generosity showed by the members in giving their time and expertise to help others.

On to my question, my g/f works for a legitimate massage shop in Pattaya (I know, sounds bad already) and I don’t know if this will look bad in the application. I have been told that writing the word Pattaya on an application form puts it one step closer to the refusal tray, and I can understand why. I have also been told that we would be best to say she works on her family’s farm in Petchabun. I can see the logic behind this, but it is lying, hard to substantiate and doesn’t give her a reason to return. Although, does working in a massage shop, or any menial job, give a reason to return?

I met her last year, have visited in April and will be going back in September. I have plenty of evidence of our relationship (e-mails, phone bills showing SMS’s, phone cards, receipts from money transactions, photos etc.). I have a good job and can prove this. I have my own flat and can prove this. I am 30 and my g/f is 29. The reason for her visiting Scotland is basically for us to spend some time together as I can only get so many days holiday per year. I would also like her to come to Scotland to see if she likes it here before taking the relationship any further.

The main problem I can see is the reason to return, the main real reason would be so as not to ruin any subsequent visa applications but how can this be proved?. Does anyone know if there is a set of rules or guidelines that the ECO’s have to operate within on this subject.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated

Posted

Hi.

Firstly, and most importantly, do not under any circumstances be tempted to lie! The slightest inconsistency means that the visa will almost certainly be refused.

I can't speak for other countries, but as far as the UK is concerned:-

Girls from Pattaya do get visit visas.

Legitimate masseuses do get visas.

So do bar girls.

Liars don't.

Write a sponsors letter giving a brief history of your relationship. Where and when you met, how many times you have visited her etc. Say why she wishes to visit the UK at this time and how long for. Include a brief outline of your future plans together.

Provide as much evidence as you can of your relationship. Phone bills, e-mails, letters etc. A small (20-30) selection of photos of you together in different locations at different tomes always helps.

Provide evidence that you can support and accommodate her during the visit. Bank statements, pay slips etc. Details of where she will be staying to show there is room for her. Proof of ownership if you own your home or, if you rent, a letter from the landlord confirming she can stay there and that there is room for her.

Reason to return can be difficult. Will her employer confirm that she works there and the job will be kept open for her?

Even with no real reason to return, many applicants (including bar girls from Pattaya) have got a visit visa based on the strength of the relationship with their sponsor. If the ECO is satisfied that, on the balance of probabilities, the relationship is genuine and therefore the reason for the visit is genuine then they will probably issue the visa. This is because, as you mention, the ECO feels that the applicant would not want to jeopardise any future settlement application by overstaying or otherwise breaking the conditions of a visit visa.

See the following for more information:-

Guidance - Visitors (INF 2)

Guidance - Sponsors (INF 3)

Where and how to apply

Social visit checklist

Does anyone know if there is a set of rules or guidelines that the ECO’s have to operate within on this subject.
See Diplomatic Service Procedures - Entry clearance, specifically Chapter 10 - Visit entry requirements
Posted

Hello ling men,

Which country are you planning to go to ? I am guessing at the UK and if this is so ....

As i see it you have 2 problems here. First , as i think you realise , your g/friend comes under the "menial jobs" category and so has no real reason to return that can be shown convincingly to the ECO. Lying about her working on her family's farm will not help as it gives no better reason to return and by lying will actually make it worse if found out.

Your second problem, is that you are presenting her as your g/friend (assuming that is your intention) so another concern will be that she is even less likely to return as they will suspect your evential intention may be to settle in the UK together.

How to address them . Well as you said , you must convince the visa officer that you wouldn't want to harm any future applications by messing up this one and overstaying, working etc. All you can do to this end is to write a covering letter explaining that you both understand the importance of this . Also don't ask for too long .. 3 weeks is reasonable for a first visit. Proving your relationship is not really crucial here as she is asking for a vv . On the bright side you can it seems satisfy the financial and accomodation criteria .

They are trying to decide as many applications as possible nowadays on the documents alone so she will only be called to interview if they are in two minds and need to clarify anything. So make sure you include everything you can in your application . Unfortunately your application will be in the hands of the subjective mood of whichever visa officer gets to look at it , and in the absence of a clear set of factual criteria which the government doesn't want to lay down , luck will play a part. This is wrong but is the system we have until its changed.

To answer your last question , spend an hour or two looking at the copious notes provided by the government as guidelines for the ECO's to go by. You can find them on

www.ukvisas.gov.uk

or type "uk visas diplomatic" into a google search engine and it will take you directly to the page you need to study.

Your application is so typical of thousands of identical scenarios every year. Some get it and some don't. You have a chance .. thats all that can be said

If its not the UK you are referring to just ignore this post.

Posted

Sorry i was typing my reply at the same time as GU22 so have repeated much of what he wrote (clearly he is the faster typist !!) . Everything he has written is good advice and if you read it in conjunction with mine you will see the answers are pretty similar.

Good luck !!

Posted (edited)

The OP says he is in Scotland.

Atlastaname and I are in general agreement on how to procede, but I must take issue with

Unfortunately your application will be in the hands of the subjective mood of whichever visa officer gets to look at it , and in the absence of a clear set of factual criteria which the government doesn't want to lay down , luck will play a part. This is wrong but is the system we have until its changed.
Total rubbish, I'm afraid.

ECOs have to base their decisions on the balance of probabilities as per the immigration rules and the DPS. Their performance is regularly monitored. All refusals in categories which have a right of appeal are automatically reviewed by the ECM, and if it does go to appeal the AIT. Any refusal which doesn't have a right of appeal could be randomly reviewed by the independent monitor.

The Independent Monitor

The Independent Monitor’s main task is to make a twice-yearly review of between 3000 and 4000 randomly chosen entry clearance refusals without a right of appeal. She or he looks at the overall quality of refusal decisions, paying particular attention to fairness, consistency and the procedures used to reach those decisions. Entry Clearance Posts do not know in advance which cases have been chosen for review.

The findings of the Independent Monitor are given in a report to the Foreign Secretary, who submits it to Parliament.

If a particular ECO was consistently treating applicants too harshly then it would show up and that ECO would be told to shape up or ship out.

I am naturally sympathetic toward any genuine person who has suffered the pain, frustration and anger of being refused a visa. I've been there and know what it feels like. I am not saying that the ECOs never get it wrong. However, in most refusal cases, when looked at dispassionately, one can see that the fault lies with the application, not with the ECO.

This may sound harsh, but far better, IMO, to look at and deal with the real reasons for failure rather than simply but the blame on a 'bad' or 'unfair' ECO.

ling men,

Based upon what you have said, then provided you take the time to prepare the application properly (and are not tempted to lie) I think she has an excellent chance.

Edited by GU22
Posted

This is about the closest GU22 and I will ever come to agreeing , but i do still stick by what i wrote.

Its all very well saying they have guidelines they are supposed to follow but its human nature that some ECO's will have slightly different personal feelings about immigration matters. For example some maybe absolutely fine with bar girls getting visas and some may not on moral grounds. Just like a cross section of the British public (which they are after all) some ECO's may privately favour immigration and some may not . They can't but help that this will spill over into their judgements , and on an identical application some may refuse whilst others will grant. Yes its true they have guidelines they are supposed to follow and can be read by all at the links i and GU22 gave.

But it doesn't mean they will follow them if they decide they dislike someone does it ?

As for saying you can appeal to the AIT , how does that alter the fact that mistakes can and are made to start with? (which is why so many are overturned on appeal)

And talking about random checks on those without appeal rights , well what consolation is that if yours is one of the cases which aren't randomly checked ??

No, the fact is that the visa system has too much luck involved in it . No system is perfect , the UK one certainly isn't. Everything that GU22 says is essentially correct, its just that we both view the facts with different eyes . The OP has a chance , but i think a fair one , not an "excellent" one

Posted
As for saying you can appeal to the AIT , how does that alter the fact that mistakes can and are made to start with? (which is why so many are overturned on appeal)
I haven't been able to find the figures for how many appeals are successful, so would be grateful if you would supply a link to them.

One factor which needs to be considered is that the appellant can introduce new evidence at the appeal which the original ECO didn't see. Which may be why most appeals succeed, if indeed they do.

And talking about random checks on those without appeal rights , well what consolation is that if yours is one of the cases which aren't randomly checked ??
The monitor cannot reverse the original decision. But the ECO knowing that any refusal may be scrutinised and the ECO called to account for it does, IMO at least, help to ensure that the ECOs do try to be fair and act within the rules.

They are of course human and subject to error. No system is perfect.

Anyway, this is way off topic, so if you want to continue this discussion may I suggest that you start a new thread. Better still, go to the archives and re-read the many debates we've had on this in the past.

Posted

Yes probably a good time to call it a day , although i think it will help the OP and others who are considering applying in the future to read what we have written. We both have good and bad experiences with the BE Bangkok . GU22 is more forgiving than i am when it comes to remembering the misery the system put us through.

Its a shame there are no statistics on the number of Thais who don't have a reason to return on the face of it . Numbers who applied, and percentage refused. That would be interesting reading and would help the OP and others in that situation assess their chances. There are no statistics i guess because it would be too difficult to categorise and i understand that . Pity none the less

Posted (edited)

Thanks a lot guys, your advice is much appreciated. And it’s good to get different points of view along with the sound facts and information.

Edited by ling men

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