What makes 'Thai-style democracy' globally palatable?

[tbthailand]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It would seem you're the one who cannot accept the reality. You're the one who likes to go back to the failed democracy Thailand was. Why do you fear the current reality? You have nothing to fear personally, nor do you seem to have a stake in Thailand future or want the best for Thailand in the future.

The democracy was toppled by a coup, so in a sense it failed, but failure was forced on it.

The current reality, as I have stated repeatedly and you repeatedly ignore, is one of martial law, censorship, no freedom of speech, no freedom of association, no right to criticize the government, calls for elections banned, and rule by decree. The fact that you find this not only acceptable but comforting speaks volumes about you.

I've made many friends in Thailand. I want a better future for them in a better country. I want their government to achieve real democracy. You argue for the old facade of democracy in which the military is constantly behind the scenes ready to stage a coup if the generals or their buddies don't like where the voters are taking the country.

Now I eagerly await your reply in which you write "But, but, but Thaksin, Yingluck, PTP, redshirts!" No doubt you will make no attempt to defend all the restrictions imposed on the Thai people or explain how these restrictions on ideas and communication will lead to 'real democracy'. Obviously they won't.

As a 'but, but, Thaksin' ranting do-gooder coup-lover (as is obvious people tell me) I'm really surprised at all those posters who want to go back to the situation we had barely three months ago. A situation which got more and more violent and might have erupted into a civil war type of chaos.

To just say, but that's the fault of the others, is ignoring the other side of the story. To simply 'know' the NCPO will 'only' allow reforms which confirm the 'elite' in their position to the detriment of the 'poor, disenfrancised masses' is like hearing a political speech.

To continue to verbally obstruct the chance of reforms without political games but with the Thai people providing input is like agitating against progress. And for what? For a situation where politicians 'take care of' corruption? For politicians using pressure groups in coloutful shirts? For country where a criminal fugitive is said to legally order his Pheu Thai party's government and PM around as if that's normal in a democracy? A government which sneakily handed out a shiny new passport while the country was wading through floodwaters? A government trying to push through a sneakily modified blanket amnesty bill absolving Thaisin and even his little sisters two years in office?

Democracy anyone?

Now your argument is that the only two choices were a military coup or continuing to allow Suthep and his minions to create chaos in Bangkok and use violence and intimidation to prevent elections. I can see alternatives, can't you? As I've repeatedly stated, if Prayuth had made it clear there would be no coup then Suthep's protest would have quickly run out of steam and elections could have been held.

Even if you disagree with this, and it is now unprovable, there was always the 2010 solution--a violent, bloody street clearing crackdown by the military which left the government in place. This would have had the advantage of demonstrating the military's determination to maintain 'Peace and Order' in an apolitical manner. Of course you could argue that a bloodless coup is better than a bloody crackdown, but that same argument would apply to 2010 as well, wouldn't it?

As far as going back to where we were three months ago, the latest coup guarantees it. The military has shown the Democrats they don't have to win elections, which they have demonstrated they can't do, they just have to create chaos in the streets and the military will remove the elected government and replace it with one more to their liking.

As for present alternatives, I advocate democracy now. Use the 1997 constitution or randomly select any constitution from an established successful democracy and change the name of the country to Thailand. It's not ideal, but better than military rule and all the restrictions that definitely do not 'educate' people about 'real democracy'. If you disagree, perhaps you will finally take up my challenge and explain how censorship, bans on political gathering, bans on criticism of the government, bans on calls for an election, along with the example of a military coup that suspends the constitution and imposes martial law prepares people for democracy.

BTW, thanks for proving me right and returning to your "But, but, but Thaksin, Yingluck, PTP, redshirts!" argument.

you point out several interesting things - one is that the option is not to go back "3 months" and that if we were to go back 3 months we would not be able to miss that it was Suthep causing the chaos.

Another is that there were other options and the choice lay with the general. Personally, I have no doubt that we witnessed a rare moment of Suthep honesty when he spoke about his "Line" to General P. For that reason, I don't think that anything but a coup was ever in the cards.

BUT, you are correct. If the military had made it perfectly clear that they were staying on the sidelines, then Suthep would not have used this "shutdown BKK" strategy. Why not? Because (1) there was no constitutional mechanism to do what he proposed, "reform before elections", (2) the constitutional response to a government crisis is to dissolve parliament and call elections, and (3) elections were the very, very, last thing Suthep wanted, because the democrats are politically impotent.

One reservation I would add is that the so-called independent bodies, like the courts, could still have been used to thwart the government, & Suthep's Chaos on the streets might have facilitated parts of that (delaying elections, for example) but the courts, EC, NACC and others did not require street chaos in order to be used effectively against the government.

On the other hand, street chaos was essential - not just facilitative, but essential - if the military were to have a plausible excuse for overthrowing the government.

So if a coup were ruled out from the start, I agree with your reasoning, Suthep would not have pursued street protests the way he did.

As for moving forward from this point, the prospects for a reasonable democracy in Thailand have gotten much worse in the last 9 months, and it is likely IMHO that the probability for self-governance for Thais will continue to diminish.

Ah, yes, with regard to the topic of the thread, that means that 'Thai-style democracy' as we are about to experience it for the next couple of years is just not globally palatable.

[rubl]

you point out several interesting things - one is that the option is not to go back "3 months" and that if we were to go back 3 months we would not be able to miss that it was Suthep causing the chaos.

Another is that there were other options and the choice lay with the general. Personally, I have no doubt that we witnessed a rare moment of Suthep honesty when he spoke about his "Line" to General P. For that reason, I don't think that anything but a coup was ever in the cards.

BUT, you are correct. If the military had made it perfectly clear that they were staying on the sidelines, then Suthep would not have used this "shutdown BKK" strategy. Why not? Because (1) there was no constitutional mechanism to do what he proposed, "reform before elections", (2) the constitutional response to a government crisis is to dissolve parliament and call elections, and (3) elections were the very, very, last thing Suthep wanted, because the democrats are politically impotent.

One reservation I would add is that the so-called independent bodies, like the courts, could still have been used to thwart the government, & Suthep's Chaos on the streets might have facilitated parts of that (delaying elections, for example) but the courts, EC, NACC and others did not require street chaos in order to be used effectively against the government.

On the other hand, street chaos was essential - not just facilitative, but essential - if the military were to have a plausible excuse for overthrowing the government.

So if a coup were ruled out from the start, I agree with your reasoning, Suthep would not have pursued street protests the way he did.

As for moving forward from this point, the prospects for a reasonable democracy in Thailand have gotten much worse in the last 9 months, and it is likely IMHO that the probability for self-governance for Thais will continue to diminish.

Ah, yes, with regard to the topic of the thread, that means that 'Thai-style democracy' as we are about to experience it for the next couple of years is just not globally palatable.

Well, thanks for rewriting history a bit and especially for being the 'global' spokesperson.

Greetings from a downpour plaged Bangkok which even makes my WIFI connection somewhat wobbly. Not your fault though.

Greetings,

rubl van hier tot gunder

[heybruce]

"Oh, come on, Brucy. You may advocate whatever you want now, but you started with advocating to the 'good life' before the coup."

Wrong.

"You even suggest that the anti-government protesters were happy to be sitting ducks for cowardly night attacks..."

Wrong.

"The Yingluck government was just voicing their 'democratic values' while Pheu Thai MPs demanded, CAPO requested or demanded and suggested 'wrong' court decisions could lead to violence."

What?

"but to not mention Yingluck or Thaksin while countering a return to a non-democracy advocated by some here, is impossible."

rubl, stop making stuff up! I'm advocating a return to democracy, you consistently argue against it, while insisting it wasn't really democracy because you didn't like the voters choices.

You want to return to the democracy Thailand had. That democracy was a flawed and failed one.

BTW don't say I said "while insisting it wasn't really democracy because you didn't like the voters choices." because I never said such thing. I said that a.o. with you saying that this criminal fugitive controlling the government of this country was not really illegal, showed that if true that was not really illegal, this country wasn't a functioning democracy.

Of course, it may be that in your country of origin no one would have a problem with an offshore criminal controlling your government and that not really illegally as well? Do you have political parties run by criminal fugitives and if yes can those parties participate in elections?

"Of course, it may be that in your country of origin no one would have a problem with an offshore criminal controlling your government and that not really illegally as well?"

Let's see, choose any country with a well established democracy, imagine the military of this country staging a coup to deposed a popular elected leader, then imagine the military junta charging this leader with corruption and a military installed government convicting him, and finally imagine the leader choosing to stay in exile while he publicly promotes political parties and policies similar to those that originally got him elected.

Under those circumstance I can see voters in a number of western democracies voting for this 'offshore criminal', in fact I can see people who normally wouldn't vote for him or his party doing so as a protest against the coup. As to the legality of it, I don't know about other countries, but it obviously was legal in Thailand or the Democrats would have been brought the matter up in the courts (we've been over that before, remember?).

"You want to return to the democracy Thailand had. That democracy was a flawed and failed one."

First, don't assume you know what I want, and don't conjecture unless you can provide evidence to support your conjectures.

I don't want to return Thailand to the democracy it had, I want Thailand to have a democracy that isn't continually threatened by a military coup and isn't based on a constitution written by the military. I want a Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government (it remains to be seen how democratic it will be) that will come out of this mess.

[tbthailand]

Well, thanks for rewriting history a bit and especially for being the 'global' spokesperson.

Greetings from a downpour plaged Bangkok which even makes my WIFI connection somewhat wobbly. Not your fault though.

Greetings,

rubl van hier tot gunder

Ah, the poster Rubl. How 'bout that rubl-style Thai democracy? What's your list of reforms? Please keep it short and in bullet points - I'm American and we have shorter attention spans than the Dutch.

[rubl]

You want to return to the democracy Thailand had. That democracy was a flawed and failed one.

BTW don't say I said "while insisting it wasn't really democracy because you didn't like the voters choices." because I never said such thing. I said that a.o. with you saying that this criminal fugitive controlling the government of this country was not really illegal, showed that if true that was not really illegal, this country wasn't a functioning democracy.

Of course, it may be that in your country of origin no one would have a problem with an offshore criminal controlling your government and that not really illegally as well? Do you have political parties run by criminal fugitives and if yes can those parties participate in elections?

"Of course, it may be that in your country of origin no one would have a problem with an offshore criminal controlling your government and that not really illegally as well?"

Let's see, choose any country with a well established democracy, imagine the military of this country staging a coup to deposed a popular elected leader, then imagine the military junta charging this leader with corruption and a military installed government convicting him, and finally imagine the leader choosing to stay in exile while he publicly promotes political parties and policies similar to those that originally got him elected.

Under those circumstance I can see voters in a number of western democracies voting for this 'offshore criminal', in fact I can see people who normally wouldn't vote for him or his party doing so as a protest against the coup. As to the legality of it, I don't know about other countries, but it obviously was legal in Thailand or the Democrats would have been brought the matter up in the courts (we've been over that before, remember?).

"You want to return to the democracy Thailand had. That democracy was a flawed and failed one."

First, don't assume you know what I want, and don't conjecture unless you can provide evidence to support your conjectures.

I don't want to return Thailand to the democracy it had, I want Thailand to have a democracy that isn't continually threatened by a military coup and isn't based on a constitution written by the military. I want a Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government (it remains to be seen how democratic it will be) that will come out of this mess.

'under those circumstances'? What about under the actual circumstances?

BTW you still talk as if your assumptions are close to fact.

Furthermore the 'Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government' sound a bit strange. You might want to rephrase that.

[rubl]

Well, thanks for rewriting history a bit and especially for being the 'global' spokesperson.

Greetings from a downpour plaged Bangkok which even makes my WIFI connection somewhat wobbly. Not your fault though.

Greetings,

rubl van hier tot gunder

Ah, the poster Rubl. How 'bout that rubl-style Thai democracy? What's your list of reforms? Please keep it short and in bullet points - I'm American and we have shorter attention spans than the Dutch.

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

[fab4]

Well, thanks for rewriting history a bit and especially for being the 'global' spokesperson.

Greetings from a downpour plaged Bangkok which even makes my WIFI connection somewhat wobbly. Not your fault though.

Greetings,

rubl van hier tot gunder

Ah, the poster Rubl. How 'bout that rubl-style Thai democracy? What's your list of reforms? Please keep it short and in bullet points - I'm American and we have shorter attention spans than the Dutch.

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

One could be of the opinion that you would have a list of reforms, or at least be able to spell out what reforms according to you are necessary, because you have been, and still are so forthright in demanding that Thailand needs reforms. Unless of course you just want "reforms" because that was the popular refrain when you were on the suthep bandwaggon?

Edited August 20, 2014 by fab4

[heybruce]

You want to return to the democracy Thailand had. That democracy was a flawed and failed one.

BTW don't say I said "while insisting it wasn't really democracy because you didn't like the voters choices." because I never said such thing. I said that a.o. with you saying that this criminal fugitive controlling the government of this country was not really illegal, showed that if true that was not really illegal, this country wasn't a functioning democracy.

Of course, it may be that in your country of origin no one would have a problem with an offshore criminal controlling your government and that not really illegally as well? Do you have political parties run by criminal fugitives and if yes can those parties participate in elections?

"Of course, it may be that in your country of origin no one would have a problem with an offshore criminal controlling your government and that not really illegally as well?"

Let's see, choose any country with a well established democracy, imagine the military of this country staging a coup to deposed a popular elected leader, then imagine the military junta charging this leader with corruption and a military installed government convicting him, and finally imagine the leader choosing to stay in exile while he publicly promotes political parties and policies similar to those that originally got him elected.

Under those circumstance I can see voters in a number of western democracies voting for this 'offshore criminal', in fact I can see people who normally wouldn't vote for him or his party doing so as a protest against the coup. As to the legality of it, I don't know about other countries, but it obviously was legal in Thailand or the Democrats would have been brought the matter up in the courts (we've been over that before, remember?).

"You want to return to the democracy Thailand had. That democracy was a flawed and failed one."

First, don't assume you know what I want, and don't conjecture unless you can provide evidence to support your conjectures.

I don't want to return Thailand to the democracy it had, I want Thailand to have a democracy that isn't continually threatened by a military coup and isn't based on a constitution written by the military. I want a Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government (it remains to be seen how democratic it will be) that will come out of this mess.

'under those circumstances'? What about under the actual circumstances?

BTW you still talk as if your assumptions are close to fact.

Furthermore the 'Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government' sound a bit strange. You might want to rephrase that.

"'under those circumstances'? What about under the actual circumstances?"

You asked a hypothetical question and I speculated on hypothetical circumstances allowing for a valid comparison. Was that not clear? Allow me to make it more blunt: If a western democracy experienced a military coup and popular leader going into exile under the same circumstances that Thailand did, I can see that country's deposed leader having tremendous political influence. I can see many voters voting as he asks them to, if for no other reason than to piss off the military. Is that clear enough for you?

"BTW you still talk as if your assumptions are close to fact."

What assumptions of mine are you referring to? What about your assumption that you know what I am thinking? What about your assumption that you know what the outcome of a July election would have been if it had been held? What about your assumption that the junta's restrictions on the press, speech, gatherings, and other means of communication will somehow educate and prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy'?

"Furthermore the 'Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government' sound a bit strange. You might want to rephrase that."

Do you have trouble with English sentence structure? Here's a hint, read the sentence as if the portion in parentheses were not there:

"I want Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government that will come out of this mess."

I did remover an unnecessary 'a' from the original sentence in addition to the phrase in parentheses, I hope that it is clear now.

[tbthailand]

Well, thanks for rewriting history a bit and especially for being the 'global' spokesperson.

Greetings from a downpour plaged Bangkok which even makes my WIFI connection somewhat wobbly. Not your fault though.

Greetings,

rubl van hier tot gunder

Ah, the poster Rubl. How 'bout that rubl-style Thai democracy? What's your list of reforms? Please keep it short and in bullet points - I'm American and we have shorter attention spans than the Dutch.

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

Attention span and memory aren't the same thing Rubl.

I remember your reply, without any response. Just a dodge.

If you want to argue that the recently overthrown form of government was bad and that the reforms from the current military dictatorship will lead to improvements in democracy and self-governance in Thailand - an idea I find very improbable - then you might also be able to express some ideas about which reforms will achieve this and indicate why they might come from a military dictatorship's rule and control.

I do have a list of changes I would like to see in Thailand and beyond general hand-waving about democratic systems, I cannot be more specific, because in Thailand today that would be illegal for me to tell you, even in private, much less on a public forum.

That is a fact which does underscore my general point regarding dictatorships and the current direction of Thailand's system of governance.

[ginjag]

Well, thanks for rewriting history a bit and especially for being the 'global' spokesperson.

Greetings from a downpour plaged Bangkok which even makes my WIFI connection somewhat wobbly. Not your fault though.

Greetings,

rubl van hier tot gunder

Ah, the poster Rubl. How 'bout that rubl-style Thai democracy? What's your list of reforms? Please keep it short and in bullet points - I'm American and we have shorter attention spans than the Dutch.

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

Attention span and memory aren't the same thing Rubl.

I remember your reply, without any response. Just a dodge.

If you want to argue that the recently overthrown form of government was bad and that the reforms from the current military dictatorship will lead to improvements in democracy and self-governance in Thailand - an idea I find very improbable - then you might also be able to express some ideas about which reforms will achieve this and indicate why they might come from a military dictatorship's rule and control.

I do have a list of changes I would like to see in Thailand and beyond general hand-waving about democratic systems, I cannot be more specific, because in Thailand today that would be illegal for me to tell you, even in private, much less on a public forum.

That is a fact which does underscore my general point regarding dictatorships and the current direction of Thailand's system of governance.

14 pages of this and still at the same position, questions to Rube near the same, same badgering, attacking, seeking information to attack at anything that doesn't suit.

3-4-5 of the same people I have spoken about re--my doubts about individual separate views. It's a good job Rube has the nice calm attitude to tolerate daily question time. He is doing something that Yingluck NEVER did.

I note that it was pointed out that you have a list of reforms that are unprintable---if they are that bad they must be extreme and most people are not in favour of extremist views.

You ask Rube about his list of reforms ?? why to tear that to shreds like all his other answers. He is not on the reform council.

Some of you hard liners have told me to give it a rest, well take a leaf out of your own book and do the same.

[tbthailand]

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

Attention span and memory aren't the same thing Rubl.

I remember your reply, without any response. Just a dodge.

If you want to argue that the recently overthrown form of government was bad and that the reforms from the current military dictatorship will lead to improvements in democracy and self-governance in Thailand - an idea I find very improbable - then you might also be able to express some ideas about which reforms will achieve this and indicate why they might come from a military dictatorship's rule and control.

I do have a list of changes I would like to see in Thailand and beyond general hand-waving about democratic systems, I cannot be more specific, because in Thailand today that would be illegal for me to tell you, even in private, much less on a public forum.

That is a fact which does underscore my general point regarding dictatorships and the current direction of Thailand's system of governance.

14 pages of this and still at the same position, questions to Rube near the same, same badgering, attacking, seeking information to attack at anything that doesn't suit.

3-4-5 of the same people I have spoken about re--my doubts about individual separate views. It's a good job Rube has the nice calm attitude to tolerate daily question time. He is doing something that Yingluck NEVER did.

I note that it was pointed out that you have a list of reforms that are unprintable---if they are that bad they must be extreme and most people are not in favour of extremist views.

You ask Rube about his list of reforms ?? why to tear that to shreds like all his other answers. He is not on the reform council.

Some of you hard liners have told me to give it a rest, well take a leaf out of your own book and do the same.

agenda

[rubl]

Ah, the poster Rubl. How 'bout that rubl-style Thai democracy? What's your list of reforms? Please keep it short and in bullet points - I'm American and we have shorter attention spans than the Dutch.

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

One could be of the opinion that you would have a list of reforms, or at least be able to spell out what reforms according to you are necessary, because you have been, and still are so forthright in demanding that Thailand needs reforms. Unless of course you just want "reforms" because that was the popular refrain when you were on the suthep bandwaggon?

You mean just as much as you are seemingly against reforms and against anything that goes against Thaksin, Yingluck, Pheu Thai and so, while being careful to only list the negatives without acknowledging that implicitly means support for Thaksin, Yingluck, Pheu Thai, blanket amnesty and the like?

One would assume that to have a list of reforms for Thailand from a Western World point of view could be deemed somewhat condescending. Of course you being English you might still think fondly of the days the British Empire had this God given right to educate savages and so.

[rubl]

"'under those circumstances'? What about under the actual circumstances?"

You asked a hypothetical question and I speculated on hypothetical circumstances allowing for a valid comparison. Was that not clear? Allow me to make it more blunt: If a western democracy experienced a military coup and popular leader going into exile under the same circumstances that Thailand did, I can see that country's deposed leader having tremendous political influence. I can see many voters voting as he asks them to, if for no other reason than to piss off the military. Is that clear enough for you?

"BTW you still talk as if your assumptions are close to fact."

What assumptions of mine are you referring to? What about your assumption that you know what I am thinking? What about your assumption that you know what the outcome of a July election would have been if it had been held? What about your assumption that the junta's restrictions on the press, speech, gatherings, and other means of communication will somehow educate and prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy'?

"Furthermore the 'Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government' sound a bit strange. You might want to rephrase that."

Do you have trouble with English sentence structure? Here's a hint, read the sentence as if the portion in parentheses were not there:

"I want Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government that will come out of this mess."

I did remover an unnecessary 'a' from the original sentence in addition to the phrase in parentheses, I hope that it is clear now.

You seem to forget that Thaksin wasn't innocent. Given time he would have succeeded in bringing all under his control.

Of course in a real democracy we simply take a few more years to get rid of such people. How long did it take Italy?

As for English, you seem to confuse 'democracy' with 'government'.

[ginjag]

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

Attention span and memory aren't the same thing Rubl.

I remember your reply, without any response. Just a dodge.

If you want to argue that the recently overthrown form of government was bad and that the reforms from the current military dictatorship will lead to improvements in democracy and self-governance in Thailand - an idea I find very improbable - then you might also be able to express some ideas about which reforms will achieve this and indicate why they might come from a military dictatorship's rule and control.

I do have a list of changes I would like to see in Thailand and beyond general hand-waving about democratic systems, I cannot be more specific, because in Thailand today that would be illegal for me to tell you, even in private, much less on a public forum.

That is a fact which does underscore my general point regarding dictatorships and the current direction of Thailand's system of governance.

14 pages of this and still at the same position, questions to Rube near the same, same badgering, attacking, seeking information to attack at anything that doesn't suit.

3-4-5 of the same people I have spoken about re--my doubts about individual separate views. It's a good job Rube has the nice calm attitude to tolerate daily question time. He is doing something that Yingluck NEVER did.

I note that it was pointed out that you have a list of reforms that are unprintable---if they are that bad they must be extreme and most people are not in favour of extremist views.

You ask Rube about his list of reforms ?? why to tear that to shreds like all his other answers. He is not on the reform council.

Some of you hard liners have told me to give it a rest, well take a leaf out of your own book and do the same.

agenda

Sure the truth hurts, agenda. stands out a mile occupying Rubes time, try another thread like the latest accidents---train de-railed-Cambodian workers, oh but sorry--as you say not your agenda ??

I spoke about the 14 pages on a topic with about 5 of your -same thinking guys, asking and countering Rubes posts, for what benefit. we have heard it 100 times---just for annoyance ??? no other threads interesting enough.

[rubl]

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

Attention span and memory aren't the same thing Rubl.

I remember your reply, without any response. Just a dodge.

If you want to argue that the recently overthrown form of government was bad and that the reforms from the current military dictatorship will lead to improvements in democracy and self-governance in Thailand - an idea I find very improbable - then you might also be able to express some ideas about which reforms will achieve this and indicate why they might come from a military dictatorship's rule and control.

I do have a list of changes I would like to see in Thailand and beyond general hand-waving about democratic systems, I cannot be more specific, because in Thailand today that would be illegal for me to tell you, even in private, much less on a public forum.

That is a fact which does underscore my general point regarding dictatorships and the current direction of Thailand's system of governance.

Must be some extreme reforms you have in mind.

What about real independent watchdog institutes? An education program which teaches to think for yourself rather than simple rote learning? Equally by law AND effectively? Transparency and responsibility in politicians dictated by law rather than being left up to them?

Just to name a few. Maybe you have some more you feel you can tell us about without needing to fear for your life?

[heybruce]

"'under those circumstances'? What about under the actual circumstances?"

You asked a hypothetical question and I speculated on hypothetical circumstances allowing for a valid comparison. Was that not clear? Allow me to make it more blunt: If a western democracy experienced a military coup and popular leader going into exile under the same circumstances that Thailand did, I can see that country's deposed leader having tremendous political influence. I can see many voters voting as he asks them to, if for no other reason than to piss off the military. Is that clear enough for you?

"BTW you still talk as if your assumptions are close to fact."

What assumptions of mine are you referring to? What about your assumption that you know what I am thinking? What about your assumption that you know what the outcome of a July election would have been if it had been held? What about your assumption that the junta's restrictions on the press, speech, gatherings, and other means of communication will somehow educate and prepare the Thai people for 'real democracy'?

"Furthermore the 'Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government' sound a bit strange. You might want to rephrase that."

Do you have trouble with English sentence structure? Here's a hint, read the sentence as if the portion in parentheses were not there:

"I want Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government that will come out of this mess."

I did remover an unnecessary 'a' from the original sentence in addition to the phrase in parentheses, I hope that it is clear now.

You seem to forget that Thaksin wasn't innocent. Given time he would have succeeded in bringing all under his control.

Of course in a real democracy we simply take a few more years to get rid of such people. How long did it take Italy?

As for English, you seem to confuse 'democracy' with 'government'.

When has Thailand had an innocent Prime Minister? Thaksin's conviction gave the appearance of victor's justice used to legitimize a coup.

I'm glad you agree that democracy is capable of eventually getting rid of corrupt politicians, though it does take time. Can you give me an example of a military dictatorship that eliminated corruption?

"As for English, you seem to confuse 'democracy' with 'government'."

Are you playing dumb now? The original sentence I wrote was:

"I want a Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government (it remains to be seen how democratic it will be) that will come out of this mess."

You claimed to have trouble with that so I suggested you read the sentence without the phrase in parentheses:

"I want Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government that will come out of this mess."

Now you claim you don't understand that. Let me try it one more time for you:

I want Thailand to have a democratic government, not whatever kind of government the military imposes on the country.

Is that clear? Also, do you think you are enhancing your credibility as a poster with this verbal nit-picking?

[heybruce]

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

Attention span and memory aren't the same thing Rubl.

I remember your reply, without any response. Just a dodge.

If you want to argue that the recently overthrown form of government was bad and that the reforms from the current military dictatorship will lead to improvements in democracy and self-governance in Thailand - an idea I find very improbable - then you might also be able to express some ideas about which reforms will achieve this and indicate why they might come from a military dictatorship's rule and control.

I do have a list of changes I would like to see in Thailand and beyond general hand-waving about democratic systems, I cannot be more specific, because in Thailand today that would be illegal for me to tell you, even in private, much less on a public forum.

That is a fact which does underscore my general point regarding dictatorships and the current direction of Thailand's system of governance.

Must be some extreme reforms you have in mind.

What about real independent watchdog institutes? An education program which teaches to think for yourself rather than simple rote learning? Equally by law AND effectively? Transparency and responsibility in politicians dictated by law rather than being left up to them?

Just to name a few. Maybe you have some more you feel you can tell us about without needing to fear for your life?

All excellent ideas. The military should lead by example and impose all these reforms on itself (substitute 'generals' for 'politicians'). In fact it should have done that before the coup.

[rubl]

...

What about real independent watchdog institutes? An education program which teaches to think for yourself rather than simple rote learning? Equally by law AND effectively? Transparency and responsibility in politicians dictated by law rather than being left up to them?

...

All excellent ideas. The military should lead by example and impose all these reforms on itself (substitute 'generals' for 'politicians'). In fact it should have done that before the coup.

Military lead by example in military matters. In a real democracy politicians lead in reforms and Ministers with their ministries apparatus formulate how to implement reforms or sometimes even formulate the reforms when parliament is a bit vague in it's direction giving.

Anyway, better that the NRC formulates reforms with input from the Thai population rather than have the military push a few, wouldn't you say?

[rubl]

"As for English, you seem to confuse 'democracy' with 'government'."

Are you playing dumb now? The original sentence I wrote was:

"I want a Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government (it remains to be seen how democratic it will be) that will come out of this mess."

You claimed to have trouble with that so I suggested you read the sentence without the phrase in parentheses:

"I want Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government that will come out of this mess."

Now you claim you don't understand that. Let me try it one more time for you:

I want Thailand to have a democratic government, not whatever kind of government the military imposes on the country.

Is that clear? Also, do you think you are enhancing your credibility as a poster with this verbal nit-picking?

Brucy, you replaced 'democracy' by 'democratic government' as if that was your idea. You seem to forget that I told you the 'democracy = government' sounded a wee bit strange and you might consider rephrasing.

Now you did so, but accuse me of misunderstanding. Is it so difficult to just write "yes, you're right, let me rephrase" ?

[fab4]

Military lead by example in military matters. In a real democracy politicians lead in reforms and Ministers with their ministries apparatus formulate how to implement reforms or sometimes even formulate the reforms when parliament is a bit vague in it's direction giving.

Anyway, better that the NRC formulates reforms with input from the Thai population rather than have the military push a few, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, better that the NRC formulates reforms with input from the Thai population rather than have the military push a few, wouldn't you say?

????????????

The 250 NRC members will be selected by two methods. First, each of the 77 provincial committees nominates five candidates, one of who will be chosen by the NCPO.

Second, legal entities nationwide nominate candidates for 11 selection committees to consider, with a shortlist of 50 candidates for each of 11 key areas of reform (550 in total).

The NCPO will select 77 provincial representatives and 173 representatives from the 11 selection committees.

Earlier, critics voiced concern over the 11 committees, which were appointed by the junta. They pointed to the fact that advisers to the ruling NCPO has been appointed to all of the committees in what was seen as a move to allow the junta to influence the NRC line-up.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752648-fixing-fears-over-nrc-nominees/#entry8259513

[rubl]

Military lead by example in military matters. In a real democracy politicians lead in reforms and Ministers with their ministries apparatus formulate how to implement reforms or sometimes even formulate the reforms when parliament is a bit vague in it's direction giving.

Anyway, better that the NRC formulates reforms with input from the Thai population rather than have the military push a few, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, better that the NRC formulates reforms with input from the Thai population rather than have the military push a few, wouldn't you say?

????????????

The 250 NRC members will be selected by two methods. First, each of the 77 provincial committees nominates five candidates, one of who will be chosen by the NCPO.

Second, legal entities nationwide nominate candidates for 11 selection committees to consider, with a shortlist of 50 candidates for each of 11 key areas of reform (550 in total).

The NCPO will select 77 provincial representatives and 173 representatives from the 11 selection committees.

Earlier, critics voiced concern over the 11 committees, which were appointed by the junta. They pointed to the fact that advisers to the ruling NCPO has been appointed to all of the committees in what was seen as a move to allow the junta to influence the NRC line-up.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752648-fixing-fears-over-nrc-nominees/#entry8259513

Oh come on, fabs. Even if it offends what you think is right or wrong, the NCPO must make sure than the political zealots of any side of the fence and other unsavory elements cannot obstruct the reform selection and definition program.

Of course you may think it a good idea to have some of the more outspoken UDD and PDRC/PCAD leaders in the NRC. As valid representatives of 'the people' or so?

[tbthailand]

Nice that "I'm and we have".

Anyway I already noticed that short attention span, as I already wrote to you asking why I would have a list of reforms, especially in relation to reforms for Thailand .

You even replied to that already

Attention span and memory aren't the same thing Rubl.

I remember your reply, without any response. Just a dodge.

If you want to argue that the recently overthrown form of government was bad and that the reforms from the current military dictatorship will lead to improvements in democracy and self-governance in Thailand - an idea I find very improbable - then you might also be able to express some ideas about which reforms will achieve this and indicate why they might come from a military dictatorship's rule and control.

I do have a list of changes I would like to see in Thailand and beyond general hand-waving about democratic systems, I cannot be more specific, because in Thailand today that would be illegal for me to tell you, even in private, much less on a public forum.

That is a fact which does underscore my general point regarding dictatorships and the current direction of Thailand's system of governance.

Must be some extreme reforms you have in mind.

What about real independent watchdog institutes? An education program which teaches to think for yourself rather than simple rote learning? Equally by law AND effectively? Transparency and responsibility in politicians dictated by law rather than being left up to them?

Just to name a few. Maybe you have some more you feel you can tell us about without needing to fear for your life?

Remember that we are - at least I am - living under a military dict...ship which makes up the rules as it sees fit.

Wearing the wrong t-shirt while selling fish gets you harassed by the army.

eating a sandwich or reading a book or listening to music can get an invitation for attitude adjustment

talking to your taxi fare about "inequality in Thailand" in January could get you arrested in May and sentenced to 2 1/2 years in August

participating in a play in 2013 could get you charged with LM in August 2014 and refused bail

hundreds of people (that we know of) have been invited to week-long retreats and some have been 'happier than words can say' and decided to extend their time for meditation.

It is not legal to say or do anything that could cause "conflict" and the people who come to arrest you are the same ones who decide what causes conflict.

No, my ideas are not extreme, but neither is it legal or safe for me to express them.

[tbthailand]

Military lead by example in military matters. In a real democracy politicians lead in reforms and Ministers with their ministries apparatus formulate how to implement reforms or sometimes even formulate the reforms when parliament is a bit vague in it's direction giving.

Anyway, better that the NRC formulates reforms with input from the Thai population rather than have the military push a few, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, better that the NRC formulates reforms with input from the Thai population rather than have the military push a few, wouldn't you say?

????????????

The 250 NRC members will be selected by two methods. First, each of the 77 provincial committees nominates five candidates, one of who will be chosen by the NCPO.

Second, legal entities nationwide nominate candidates for 11 selection committees to consider, with a shortlist of 50 candidates for each of 11 key areas of reform (550 in total).

The NCPO will select 77 provincial representatives and 173 representatives from the 11 selection committees.

Earlier, critics voiced concern over the 11 committees, which were appointed by the junta. They pointed to the fact that advisers to the ruling NCPO has been appointed to all of the committees in what was seen as a move to allow the junta to influence the NRC line-up.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752648-fixing-fears-over-nrc-nominees/#entry8259513

Oh come on, fabs. Even if it offends what you think is right or wrong, the NCPO must make sure than the political zealots of any side of the fence and other unsavory elements cannot obstruct the reform selection and definition program.

Of course you may think it a good idea to have some of the more outspoken UDD and PDRC/PCAD leaders in the NRC. As valid representatives of 'the people' or so?

I think the point was that you talk about 'input from the Thai people' which is clearly excluded via the selection process used by the "NCPO" to select the NRC and the process is clearly designed for the "NCPO" to control the NRC - not to mention that the "NCPO" gets to approve or disapprove any NRC recommendations which just means 'give the NCPO what the NCPO wants'.

[rubl]

Must be some extreme reforms you have in mind.

What about real independent watchdog institutes? An education program which teaches to think for yourself rather than simple rote learning? Equally by law AND effectively? Transparency and responsibility in politicians dictated by law rather than being left up to them?

Just to name a few. Maybe you have some more you feel you can tell us about without needing to fear for your life?

Remember that we are - at least I am - living under a military dict...ship which makes up the rules as it sees fit.

Wearing the wrong t-shirt while selling fish gets you harassed by the army.

eating a sandwich or reading a book or listening to music can get an invitation for attitude adjustment

talking to your taxi fare about "inequality in Thailand" in January could get you arrested in May and sentenced to 2 1/2 years in August

participating in a play in 2013 could get you charged with LM in August 2014 and refused bail

hundreds of people (that we know of) have been invited to week-long retreats and some have been 'happier than words can say' and decided to extend their time for meditation.

It is not legal to say or do anything that could cause "conflict" and the people who come to arrest you are the same ones who decide what causes conflict.

No, my ideas are not extreme, but neither is it legal or safe for me to express them.

Come on, TB, you tell you can't say much while complaining in detail.

BTW I am now at home in Khet Dusit, Bangkok. I expressed my view on possible reforms which I think would be good for the country. Do you want to suggest I should now pack my things and move? Should I expect a knock on the door tonight?

When you're in Thailand you use a Thai Internet connection like me (I'm on trueWIFI at the moment) and anything you write down could be scrutinized. As an American you know that

[rubl]

Oh come on, fabs. Even if it offends what you think is right or wrong, the NCPO must make sure than the political zealots of any side of the fence and other unsavory elements cannot obstruct the reform selection and definition program.

Of course you may think it a good idea to have some of the more outspoken UDD and PDRC/PCAD leaders in the NRC. As valid representatives of 'the people' or so?

I think the point was that you talk about 'input from the Thai people' which is clearly excluded via the selection process used by the "NCPO" to select the NRC and the process is clearly designed for the "NCPO" to control the NRC - not to mention that the "NCPO" gets to approve or disapprove any NRC recommendations which just means 'give the NCPO what the NCPO wants'.

Oh come on, TB, the NRC already in part comprises of people suggested by other Thai. Also you need a commission which can work, rather than just another 'voted in' parliament with politicians.

The Thai people get their chance to offer input. Suggestions as to reforms, which, what, how and so.

The NCPO of course needs to approve, but if they would only allow reforms they like than either they cannot step down or the moment they do someone will start modifying reforms again.

The reforms must be acceptable to most Thais, found doable, workable and it's up to the Thai to find such reforms, procedures, guidelines. If Thais cannot cooperate even in this, we might as well ask the NCPO to stay on. If Thai find that they need more time, they need to convince the NCPO to stay on for a bit longer.

Edited August 21, 2014 by rubl

[fab4]

Oh come on, TB, the NRC already in part comprises of people suggested by other Thai. Also you need a commission which can work, rather than just another 'voted in' parliament with politicians.

The Thai people get their chance to offer input. Suggestions as to reforms, which, what, how and so.

The NCPO of course needs to approve, but if they would only allow reforms they like than either they cannot step down or the moment they do someone will start modifying reforms again.

The reforms must be acceptable to most Thais, found doable, workable and it's up to the Thai to find such reforms, procedures, guidelines. If Thais cannot cooperate even in this, we might as well ask the NCPO to stay on. If Thai find that they need more time, they need to convince the NCPO to stay on for a bit longer.

If Thai find that they need more time, they need to convince the NCPO to stay on for a bit longer.

Stop it rubl, my ribs hurt

[tbthailand]

Must be some extreme reforms you have in mind.

What about real independent watchdog institutes? An education program which teaches to think for yourself rather than simple rote learning? Equally by law AND effectively? Transparency and responsibility in politicians dictated by law rather than being left up to them?

Just to name a few. Maybe you have some more you feel you can tell us about without needing to fear for your life?

Remember that we are - at least I am - living under a military dict...ship which makes up the rules as it sees fit.

Wearing the wrong t-shirt while selling fish gets you harassed by the army.

eating a sandwich or reading a book or listening to music can get an invitation for attitude adjustment

talking to your taxi fare about "inequality in Thailand" in January could get you arrested in May and sentenced to 2 1/2 years in August

participating in a play in 2013 could get you charged with LM in August 2014 and refused bail

hundreds of people (that we know of) have been invited to week-long retreats and some have been 'happier than words can say' and decided to extend their time for meditation.

It is not legal to say or do anything that could cause "conflict" and the people who come to arrest you are the same ones who decide what causes conflict.

No, my ideas are not extreme, but neither is it legal or safe for me to express them.

Come on, TB, you tell you can't say much while complaining in detail.

BTW I am now at home in Khet Dusit, Bangkok. I expressed my view on possible reforms which I think would be good for the country. Do you want to suggest I should now pack my things and move? Should I expect a knock on the door tonight?

When you're in Thailand you use a Thai Internet connection like me (I'm on trueWIFI at the moment) and anything you write down could be scrutinized. As an American you know that

you are pro-junta, I am not.

we don't get treated the same.

book reading is illegal depending on how you do it.

anti-american protesting in front of the embassy is not protesting, just 'expressing your opinion'

wearing red-colored t-shirt and selling fish in Chiang Mai leaves you shirtless

wearing shutdown bangkok t-shirts in the south is a fashion statement.

the rules of this forum have been made stricter to comply with the NCPO's directives. You might have missed it, but I have not overlooked the fact that some of my posts are deleted because they don't comply correctly with the rules. That in and of itself is not a problem. It is just another example which is closer to home.

[rubl]

Must be some extreme reforms you have in mind.

What about real independent watchdog institutes? An education program which teaches to think for yourself rather than simple rote learning? Equally by law AND effectively? Transparency and responsibility in politicians dictated by law rather than being left up to them?

Just to name a few. Maybe you have some more you feel you can tell us about without needing to fear for your life?

Remember that we are - at least I am - living under a military dict...ship which makes up the rules as it sees fit.

Wearing the wrong t-shirt while selling fish gets you harassed by the army.

eating a sandwich or reading a book or listening to music can get an invitation for attitude adjustment

talking to your taxi fare about "inequality in Thailand" in January could get you arrested in May and sentenced to 2 1/2 years in August

participating in a play in 2013 could get you charged with LM in August 2014 and refused bail

hundreds of people (that we know of) have been invited to week-long retreats and some have been 'happier than words can say' and decided to extend their time for meditation.

It is not legal to say or do anything that could cause "conflict" and the people who come to arrest you are the same ones who decide what causes conflict.

No, my ideas are not extreme, but neither is it legal or safe for me to express them.

Come on, TB, you tell you can't say much while complaining in detail.

BTW I am now at home in Khet Dusit, Bangkok. I expressed my view on possible reforms which I think would be good for the country. Do you want to suggest I should now pack my things and move? Should I expect a knock on the door tonight?

When you're in Thailand you use a Thai Internet connection like me (I'm on trueWIFI at the moment) and anything you write down could be scrutinized. As an American you know that

you are pro-junta, I am not.

we don't get treated the same.

book reading is illegal depending on how you do it.

anti-american protesting in front of the embassy is not protesting, just 'expressing your opinion'

wearing red-colored t-shirt and selling fish in Chiang Mai leaves you shirtless

wearing shutdown bangkok t-shirts in the south is a fashion statement.

the rules of this forum have been made stricter to comply with the NCPO's directives. You might have missed it, but I have not overlooked the fact that some of my posts are deleted because they don't comply correctly with the rules. That in and of itself is not a problem. It is just another example which is closer to home.

I'm pro-junta? I deeply regret it's necessary, but being somewhat pragmatic I can see that with help Thailand can become a real democracy. The politicians didn't really seem interested. One party too small to get changes done and depending on other parties 'goodwill' and maybe not too interested in getting real changes done, another party just interested in one person only.

Even if you are anti-junta, you only have a problem when you publicly express your anti-junta opinions. Just like politicians are requested to shut up for a moment so work can be done.

BTW book reading can get you into problems in more countries. In the USA Down South a bit of colour may be seen as confrontational by the police. The government even asked the army to step in.

Anyway, a few posts from you I've seen asked for removal. Spreading rumours for instance. Again in any country you can be held accountable for your posts on social media.

PS 'get treated' ? More like we both get ignored as being legal 'aliens' only.

Edited August 21, 2014 by rubl

[heybruce]

...

What about real independent watchdog institutes? An education program which teaches to think for yourself rather than simple rote learning? Equally by law AND effectively? Transparency and responsibility in politicians dictated by law rather than being left up to them?

...

All excellent ideas. The military should lead by example and impose all these reforms on itself (substitute 'generals' for 'politicians'). In fact it should have done that before the coup.

Military lead by example in military matters. In a real democracy politicians lead in reforms and Ministers with their ministries apparatus formulate how to implement reforms or sometimes even formulate the reforms when parliament is a bit vague in it's direction giving.

Anyway, better that the NRC formulates reforms with input from the Thai population rather than have the military push a few, wouldn't you say?

Where to begin? First:

"Military lead by example in military matters."

Did you notice that the military is running the nation now?

You also distinguish between the NRC and the military, I don't. Also, with Thailand's history of coups, do you think a civilian government will dare to reform the military? Can you provide any evidence that the military is ready to reform itself?

[heybruce]

"As for English, you seem to confuse 'democracy' with 'government'."

Are you playing dumb now? The original sentence I wrote was:

"I want a Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government (it remains to be seen how democratic it will be) that will come out of this mess."

You claimed to have trouble with that so I suggested you read the sentence without the phrase in parentheses:

"I want Thailand to have a democracy very unlike the government that will come out of this mess."

Now you claim you don't understand that. Let me try it one more time for you:

I want Thailand to have a democratic government, not whatever kind of government the military imposes on the country.

Is that clear? Also, do you think you are enhancing your credibility as a poster with this verbal nit-picking?

Brucy, you replaced 'democracy' by 'democratic government' as if that was your idea. You seem to forget that I told you the 'democracy = government' sounded a wee bit strange and you might consider rephrasing.

Now you did so, but accuse me of misunderstanding. Is it so difficult to just write "yes, you're right, let me rephrase" ?

In informal English, 'a democracy' and 'a democratic government' are often used interchangeably. Since you didn't seem to understand that I changed the sentence wording for you. Although I think you understood what I wrote originally, you just didn't have a substantive counter-argument so you picked at the wording.