Basic Grounding Question

[emanphoto]

Yes I know-nothing about electrical, and I too am easily confused on this forum.

That disclaimer out of the way, we're having new electrical put into our house and I just noticed today a newly installed outdoor outlet that has no cover and is only 2 prong. There is a SafeTCut in the power box, but does that make up for a lack of grounding at the outlet? The whole house is supposed to be grounded (which it isn't now) as far as I know from previous discussions w/the electrician.

I'm from the US and all outdoor outlets have to have covers, be grounded, and be GFI's. I've lived here 3 years and know about the workmanship issues, so this is not unexpected. The outlet in question is not in a "wet" area as it's a covered car park, but being outdoors water can find it's way w/an errant blast of a hose or what have you.

Attached is a shot of the overall scene and a closeup of an outlet-to-be showing the wires inside which you guys can make sense of.

Thanks for any advice!

Edited August 14, 2014 by emanphoto

[bankruatsteve]

First, the Safe-T-Cut at your breaker box is like a GFI for everything connected to it. Where the GFI is just for something connected to that. A front-end RCD would not work in the states - so don't worry about that - it's good protection. Your photo shows a green wire - which should be the ground wire. Even with Safe-T-Cut, it is best where all receptacles are 3-prong with ground. You should ask why they are putting in 2-prong when the ground is there and should be 3.

[emanphoto]

Thanks bank. for that. That was what I thought the safetcut did.

So he just messed up with the outlet he put in there.

From what you're saying the ground wire seems to be already in there so he just needs to put in the proper outlet.

Too bad all electrical questions here aren't this easy! I get weekly emails of the posts here in hopes that I might learn something.

[2fishin2]

Well a grnd wire might be there however, whether or not your house is actually grounded could be suspect. Good way to find out if you touch your refrigerator or anything else plugged into an outlet and it feels " funny" then it isnt grounded. I live in a new condo that isnt even grounded. Thai electricians well, suck to say the least. A high school kid taking a vocational class in the west is a better than Thai "electrians". They ARE NOT electricians or craftsmen.

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[emanphoto]

2fishin2 I can guarantee you it is not grounded yet as they still have a long way to go.

Most of the wiring is not live yet. Some outlets which haven't been worked on include those I have my computer hooked up to so I still need to wear slippers when using it! So no, nothing is really grounded yet.

AFAIK they haven't pounded in the copper grounding rod yet either. It takes a lot of time to cut channels in the walls for the conduit, drill holes for the supports into the ceiling for the conduit running up there…..and it makes our house a dusty, hellish place to live ATM.

New wires they've brought back online are just for our convenience at present.

[bankruatsteve]

So, what are they doing on the inside? As mentioned, a ground wire doesn't guarantee proper grounding but your photos show what looks "professional" - except why they put the 2=prong doesn't make sense. Make sure the CU (breaker box) has ground bar connected to a big wire that goes to a rod in the dirt.

Also, the metal conduit is the expensive route - no problem - but really not required. That's why I wonder what they are doing inside.

Edit: you responded while I was posting this one. So, I take back "professional". Your description is just not how it should be done. Or, are they trying to make do for your request to have electric?

Edited August 14, 2014 by bankruatsteve

[RichCor]

[...] whether or not your house is actually grounded could be suspect. Good way to find out if you touch your refrigerator or anything else plugged into an outlet and it feels " funny" then it isnt grounded.

[...]

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This isn't exactly true.

Many refrigerators sold here don't have a ground pin, nor would their owners even think to add a ground wire to their case.

A device can be 'grounded' but still deliver a 'funny' tingle -- A tile floor, a 'grounded' metal enclosure, and a grounded electrical socket could all have differential current when measured against the building's copper ground stake.

On circuits where the Neutral and Ground are bonded, even correctly, it's possible for the building ground wire to hold a current level that differs to that of a wet puddle another part of the building.

[2fishin2]

If it tingles, it isnt "properly grounded." Dont need to argue about it or engage in wordsmithing could be a house, refrigerator, electrical outlet, its wrong and its dangerous. I had an idiot deliver a washer and set it up. He pounded the ground wire into a concrete floor. Of course he is ignorant to electronic principles to start with but, it is his job to set up equipment. Didnt a young girl just die of electrical shock due to faulty ATM machine? Thais do not understand grounding or basic electronic principles. Give em a role of electrical tape and a switch thats about it

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[emanphoto]

We decided to have exposed conduit be metal as that yellow stuff is ugly. I don't think it cost any more. Perhaps in the time it takes to set it up tho.

There's a thread here on how to ground a fridge sine there is no 3rd pin on the plugs. Plan to refer to that when we get to that stage. Still a looooooong way to go here.

Edited August 15, 2014 by emanphoto

[Forkinhades]

This pinned topic should answer all your needs

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/693630-how-to-make-your-thai-electrical-system-safe/

[Forkinhades]

We decided to have exposed conduit be metal as that yellow stuff is ugly. I don't think it cost any more. Perhaps in the time it takes to set it up tho.

There's a thread here on how to ground a fridge sine there is no 3rd pin on the plugs. Plan to refer to that when we get to that stage. Still a looooooong way to go here.

Make sure you earth the back of the box. If the box does not have a terminal then the fixing screws should be panheads and not coutersunk.

[Forkinhades]

BTW you can get white conduit here in LOS. aesthetically pleasing on white walls.

[transam]

BTW you can get white conduit here in LOS. aesthetically pleasing on white walls.

No way would I use metal conduit as they do like using sticky tape for wire joints, which l have found in my place as near useless. Plastic every time for you and yours safety.

My big fridge was 2 pin, l earthed the chassis and fitted a 3 pin plug.

Suggest you buy a cheap tester (AC) to test your 3 pin outlets, live to earth to see if earth is there, it will show similar voltage as live to neutral.

[Forkinhades]

^ agreed, would try and stay away from metal if you can. Can cause more problems than benefits.

[emanphoto]

Thanks for all the posts guys!

Do you mean they use tape instead of wire nuts like the attached pic? I've not seen them using one or the other yet so that bears looking into. Typically those aren't used till they get to an outlet box and not in the middle of the conduit. Would be a relatively easy fix at each junction box, outlet, or wall switch.

I've never seen plastic conduit till I moved here. I've not heard till now any reason NOT to use metal conduit. I've no pref personally, but we went with metal only for the outside as it seems to be a more durable choice.

Yep the fridge will be it's own project for them and I've already felt it's lack of grounding.

RE: cheap AC tester. Where oh where can you find this?

One of our apt. units back in the US has a section 8 tenant, so the city sends inspectors out yearly. I learned to at least test outlets this way for polarity and grounding but have looked and not found them here in LOS or even for the 220 voltage in any country really. What I did find were complicated looking (to me) and expensive testers for multiple uses with 2 probes on wires.

Attached is what a tester looks like in the US. Simple and cheap.

This is the closest I've found when I looked today for a 220V outlet tester.

http://www.etesters.com/see/Receptacle_Testers/220V

Any better leads than this?

e

BTW you can get white conduit here in LOS. aesthetically pleasing on white walls.

No way would I use metal conduit as they do like using sticky tape for wire joints, which l have found in my place as near useless. Plastic every time for you and yours safety.

My big fridge was 2 pin, l earthed the chassis and fitted a 3 pin plug.

Suggest you buy a cheap tester (AC) to test your 3 pin outlets, live to earth to see if earth is there, it will show similar voltage as live to neutral.

[transam]

Chum, in LOS you stay well away from anything metal, trust me on that.

You can buy a tester in Tesco, it does DC and AC, YOU test on AC. Do NOT trust anything electrical here. Trust me.

[Forkinhades]

^ I will echo that

Plastic conduit will never become live.

[Forkinhades]

The DT903 looks good, but seems to be lacking technical information in regards to testing your safety devices.

I like this one

http://isswww.co.uk/Socket-Testers/Fluke-Testers/Fluke-Robin-SM300-Socket-Master-Advanced/?source=googleps&gclid=CL-ExtP-mcACFZMRtAod7EUAEg

But you will have to adapt it.

[Forkinhades]

^ no longer available it seems

http://isswww.co.uk/Socket-Testers/Martindale/Martindale-EZ150-Xtra-NonTrip-Earth-Loop-Impedance-Tester/?utm_campaign=people-bought-bottom

This has been recommend before.

[emanphoto]

OK I've looked at Tesco etc for testers and come up snake eyes so give me a little more help if you can.

I've lived here long enough to know about the electrical here, thanks.

They've already run 20 meters of conduit outside so I'm going to need better suggestions than "don't". We've hire a good electrician who readily says "chai dai" vs the usual "mai dai" "mai mee" "mai ao" types.

So if there's something to watch for, have changed, whatever, that will be of help.

[Forkinhades]

All your joints need to be sound, and your earthing needs to be of a high standard, otherwise you can introduce voltages that were not present before.

[transam]

OK I've looked at Tesco etc for testers and come up snake eyes so give me a little more help if you can.

I've lived here long enough to know about the electrical here, thanks.

They've already run 20 meters of conduit outside so I'm going to need better suggestions than "don't". We've hire a good electrician who readily says "chai dai" vs the usual "mai dai" "mai mee" "mai ao" types.

So if there's something to watch for, have changed, whatever, that will be of help.

If you want to listen to them, OK. Advice has been given from experience. We care about you and yours...........

[emanphoto]

Holy moley! $43-58 USD for an outlet tester?

They cost $8 in the US.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-120-VAC-GFCI-Outlet-Tester-1-clam-5-clams-master-GFI-3501/202867890?N=5yc1vZboff

http://www.lowes.com/pd_464308-295-40020S_4294618093__?productId=50129726&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=

What am I missing here?

[transam]

Holy moley! $43-58 USD for an outlet tester?

They cost $8 in the US.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-120-VAC-GFCI-Outlet-Tester-1-clam-5-clams-master-GFI-3501/202867890?N=5yc1vZboff

http://www.lowes.com/pd_464308-295-40020S_4294618093__?productId=50129726&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=

What am I missing here?

Not think so, did you go to Tesco.............?

But if your life is worth a few dollars.............

[Forkinhades]

Your earth is very important, and the ohmic value of this earth is very important.

[Forkinhades]

Earthing is quite difficult to understand fully, and indeed it confuses must sparkies in the west, let alone the Thai sparky.

[Forkinhades]

The equipment I use in the UK, is 50,000 baht

[emanphoto]

I understand and appreciate that.

My point is, given we've got conduit already installed, more on the way, plus the metal conduit has been purchased already, tearing it down and starting over is not an option. What I need to find out is, what needs to be done to insure it's safety if it hasn't been done already? All our conduit in the US is metal, interior and exterior, and is done to code. So that level of standard is what we need to insure is applied here.

OK I've looked at Tesco etc for testers and come up snake eyes so give me a little more help if you can.

I've lived here long enough to know about the electrical here, thanks.

They've already run 20 meters of conduit outside so I'm going to need better suggestions than "don't". We've hire a good electrician who readily says "chai dai" vs the usual "mai dai" "mai mee" "mai ao" types.

So if there's something to watch for, have changed, whatever, that will be of help.

If you want to listen to them, OK. Advice has been given from experience. We care about you and yours...........

[Forkinhades]

The pinned threads are very good, you should try and read them all

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/694261-how-to-check-your-earthing-system/

EDIT: missed out the word should

[transam]

Earth the conduit..............