India airliner falls 5,000 feet while captain sleeps

[Harsh Jones]

another reason not to fly jet !

Another reason to be acutely aware of the dangers of flying.

Pilots should have an emergency supply of cocaine or something to keep them alert

[JacChang]

It doesn't have to be planned into the flight.

And doesn't have to be turbulence either.

It could be a simple adjustment required on the altimeter. As the plane crosses over different terrains and such over a long flight, the initial adjustment of the pressure for the altimeter may not be accurate anymore for the current status. When I take off from a certain airport, it might be fixed at 29.92 showing the correct altitude at the current time, but as the flight path progresses, it will need to be tweaked, and the information received from the tower will let us know the right number to put it to.

We have to remember, at the end of the day, these are instruments, tools we use for a purpose. A watch does not always tell the time, it needs to be calibrated to the correct time at the right place, doesn't it.

So if the wrong information is feeding into the auto pilot, it just takes information as is.

What do we know? All news sources say different things. Welcome to the real world.

[JacChang]

Years ago there was a rumour that a fairly senior but not so intelligent Flighty was seen leaving the cockpit of a aircraft that was half way across the pacific on a long hall flight. She was seen to quietly close the door at which time the flights purser enquired if she had delivered refreshments to the flight deck crew, she replied, "No they're sleeping, I didn't want to wake them up".

Of course, that was probably one of those urban myths....however it can get fairly boring mid flight, just monitoring those instruments, in this case the instruments were monitoring the Pilots.

Must be a frightening thing to suddenly wake up and notice that your mates asleep and the houses below are getting increasingly larger.

I wonder what crap rosters and hours these Pilots had been subjected to in the period leading up to this incident?

To my knowledge its quite common for pilots to sleep on long haul flights while on autopilot? No evidence or stories to tell but i've always thought that was pretty standard practice?

Yea, pilots do a lot of things once the plane is set on auto pilot. Read the newspaper, yes completely covering all the instruments and windows. Eat, drink, snooze. Sometimes they even leave the cockpit. But they must always have to be on the go, if something is not right.

Landing is the scariest part. Passengers think that when the plane lands, it's just up and down, roll and pitch adjustments. But when your in the cockpit, looking out the window, you will not want to be on that plane haha. The plane yaws left to right continuously, and you keep thinking it won't make it, till that first landing gear actually touches down.

[beechguy]

It doesn't have to be planned into the flight.

And doesn't have to be turbulence either.

It could be a simple adjustment required on the altimeter. As the plane crosses over different terrains and such over a long flight, the initial adjustment of the pressure for the altimeter may not be accurate anymore for the current status. When I take off from a certain airport, it might be fixed at 29.92 showing the correct altitude at the current time, but as the flight path progresses, it will need to be tweaked, and the information received from the tower will let us know the right number to put it to.

We have to remember, at the end of the day, these are instruments, tools we use for a purpose. A watch does not always tell the time, it needs to be calibrated to the correct time at the right place, doesn't it.

So if the wrong information is feeding into the auto pilot, it just takes information as is.

What do we know? All news sources say different things. Welcome to the real world.

I think this incident is probably being blown out of proportion. And, by the way, at the altitudes they were flying, the altimeter would have been set for 29.92 and no further tweaking involved until descending below 18,000 feet.

[JacChang]

It doesn't have to be planned into the flight.

And doesn't have to be turbulence either.

It could be a simple adjustment required on the altimeter. As the plane crosses over different terrains and such over a long flight, the initial adjustment of the pressure for the altimeter may not be accurate anymore for the current status. When I take off from a certain airport, it might be fixed at 29.92 showing the correct altitude at the current time, but as the flight path progresses, it will need to be tweaked, and the information received from the tower will let us know the right number to put it to.

We have to remember, at the end of the day, these are instruments, tools we use for a purpose. A watch does not always tell the time, it needs to be calibrated to the correct time at the right place, doesn't it.

So if the wrong information is feeding into the auto pilot, it just takes information as is.

What do we know? All news sources say different things. Welcome to the real world.

I think this incident is probably being blown out of proportion. And, by the way, at the altitudes they were flying, the altimeter would have been set for 29.92 and no further tweaking involved until descending below 18,000 feet.

Yea, that's how the media is, always trying to sell news. This year, they think readers love to hear about airplane accidents and so on, so anything small would take interest as long as it's related to aviation.

With regards to your post, I am not saying that a further tweaking is required for the flight. You do have to remember what thread we are in. We are trying to find out why the plane dropped 5000 feet. It is still consistent with the fact that grounded units may have radars with indications that differ from the plane's indication. Simply put, if today the altimeter was tweaked constantly due to varying pressures in each location, there may not have been a problem of the fall of 5,000 feet.

We all know, we take off with our watches in local time, and then adjust our watches again upon arrival. That is your point, correct? If I adjust my watch each hour as I pass each country, my watch is accurate to the spot when a certain tower communicates with me on my time. This thread is finding out about the drop of 5,000 feet. So it is one of the possibilities.

[bendejo]

Not sleeping!

Resting my eyes only, no problem. (add smug facial expression, head rolling and dismissive hand gesture here)

[Harsh Jones]

Years ago there was a rumour that a fairly senior but not so intelligent Flighty was seen leaving the cockpit of a aircraft that was half way across the pacific on a long hall flight. She was seen to quietly close the door at which time the flights purser enquired if she had delivered refreshments to the flight deck crew, she replied, "No they're sleeping, I didn't want to wake them up".

Of course, that was probably one of those urban myths....however it can get fairly boring mid flight, just monitoring those instruments, in this case the instruments were monitoring the Pilots.

Must be a frightening thing to suddenly wake up and notice that your mates asleep and the houses below are getting increasingly larger.

I wonder what crap rosters and hours these Pilots had been subjected to in the period leading up to this incident?

To my knowledge its quite common for pilots to sleep on long haul flights while on autopilot? No evidence or stories to tell but i've always thought that was pretty standard practice?

Yea, pilots do a lot of things once the plane is set on auto pilot. Read the newspaper, yes completely covering all the instruments and windows. Eat, drink, snooze. Sometimes they even leave the cockpit. But they must always have to be on the go, if something is not right.

Landing is the scariest part. Passengers think that when the plane lands, it's just up and down, roll and pitch adjustments. But when your in the cockpit, looking out the window, you will not want to be on that plane haha. The plane yaws left to right continuously, and you keep thinking it won't make it, till that first landing gear actually touches down.

Oh yeah. You are only liable for criminal charges if you doze off whe the wheel of your car but hey, what's the big deal at 35,000 feet ?

[Harsh Jones]

It doesn't have to be planned into the flight.

And doesn't have to be turbulence either.

It could be a simple adjustment required on the altimeter. As the plane crosses over different terrains and such over a long flight, the initial adjustment of the pressure for the altimeter may not be accurate anymore for the current status. When I take off from a certain airport, it might be fixed at 29.92 showing the correct altitude at the current time, but as the flight path progresses, it will need to be tweaked, and the information received from the tower will let us know the right number to put it to.

We have to remember, at the end of the day, these are instruments, tools we use for a purpose. A watch does not always tell the time, it needs to be calibrated to the correct time at the right place, doesn't it.

So if the wrong information is feeding into the auto pilot, it just takes information as is.

What do we know? All news sources say different things. Welcome to the real world.

The real world. Where pilots can drunk,, fall asleep and jack off behind the wheel yet we are all held to a completely diffrent standard when we are driving our cars. What a joke

[beechguy]

It doesn't have to be planned into the flight.

And doesn't have to be turbulence either.

It could be a simple adjustment required on the altimeter. As the plane crosses over different terrains and such over a long flight, the initial adjustment of the pressure for the altimeter may not be accurate anymore for the current status. When I take off from a certain airport, it might be fixed at 29.92 showing the correct altitude at the current time, but as the flight path progresses, it will need to be tweaked, and the information received from the tower will let us know the right number to put it to.

We have to remember, at the end of the day, these are instruments, tools we use for a purpose. A watch does not always tell the time, it needs to be calibrated to the correct time at the right place, doesn't it.

So if the wrong information is feeding into the auto pilot, it just takes information as is.

What do we know? All news sources say different things. Welcome to the real world.

I think this incident is probably being blown out of proportion. And, by the way, at the altitudes they were flying, the altimeter would have been set for 29.92 and no further tweaking involved until descending below 18,000 feet.

Yea, that's how the media is, always trying to sell news. This year, they think readers love to hear about airplane accidents and so on, so anything small would take interest as long as it's related to aviation.

With regards to your post, I am not saying that a further tweaking is required for the flight. You do have to remember what thread we are in. We are trying to find out why the plane dropped 5000 feet. It is still consistent with the fact that grounded units may have radars with indications that differ from the plane's indication. Simply put, if today the altimeter was tweaked constantly due to varying pressures in each location, there may not have been a problem of the fall of 5,000 feet.

We all know, we take off with our watches in local time, and then adjust our watches again upon arrival. That is your point, correct? If I adjust my watch each hour as I pass each country, my watch is accurate to the spot when a certain tower communicates with me on my time. This thread is finding out about the drop of 5,000 feet. So it is one of the possibilities.

You may want to back to go back to ground school. If they are above 18,000 feet, there should not be any tweaking necessary, that's why they, and everyone else uses 29.92. Was that not set correctly? Possible? Was the Transponder sending a wrong signal because of the Encoding Altimeter? Possible. Were the pilot's not taking care of business? Obviously.

Edited August 17, 2014 by beechguy

[harrry]

It doesn't have to be planned into the flight.

And doesn't have to be turbulence either.

It could be a simple adjustment required on the altimeter. As the plane crosses over different terrains and such over a long flight, the initial adjustment of the pressure for the altimeter may not be accurate anymore for the current status. When I take off from a certain airport, it might be fixed at 29.92 showing the correct altitude at the current time, but as the flight path progresses, it will need to be tweaked, and the information received from the tower will let us know the right number to put it to.

We have to remember, at the end of the day, these are instruments, tools we use for a purpose. A watch does not always tell the time, it needs to be calibrated to the correct time at the right place, doesn't it.

So if the wrong information is feeding into the auto pilot, it just takes information as is.

What do we know? All news sources say different things. Welcome to the real world.

I think this incident is probably being blown out of proportion. And, by the way, at the altitudes they were flying, the altimeter would have been set for 29.92 and no further tweaking involved until descending below 18,000 feet.

Yea, that's how the media is, always trying to sell news. This year, they think readers love to hear about airplane accidents and so on, so anything small would take interest as long as it's related to aviation.

With regards to your post, I am not saying that a further tweaking is required for the flight. You do have to remember what thread we are in. We are trying to find out why the plane dropped 5000 feet. It is still consistent with the fact that grounded units may have radars with indications that differ from the plane's indication. Simply put, if today the altimeter was tweaked constantly due to varying pressures in each location, there may not have been a problem of the fall of 5,000 feet.

We all know, we take off with our watches in local time, and then adjust our watches again upon arrival. That is your point, correct? If I adjust my watch each hour as I pass each country, my watch is accurate to the spot when a certain tower communicates with me on my time. This thread is finding out about the drop of 5,000 feet. So it is one of the possibilities.

Altimeters in High Level Flight are not set by radio. They Internationally use a standard pressure setting so that all aircraft are then at the same flight level relative to each other. Low level or VFR flight however usually means setting the pressure to that existing in the area of light as given in the weather announcements for each aerodromes flight area.

[palaver]

As it goes for pilots: endless hours of sheer boredom interrupted by moments of sheer terror.

[JacChang]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Yea, pilots do a lot of things once the plane is set on auto pilot. Read the newspaper, yes completely covering all the instruments and windows. Eat, drink, snooze. Sometimes they even leave the cockpit. But they must always have to be on the go, if something is not right.

Landing is the scariest part. Passengers think that when the plane lands, it's just up and down, roll and pitch adjustments. But when your in the cockpit, looking out the window, you will not want to be on that plane haha. The plane yaws left to right continuously, and you keep thinking it won't make it, till that first landing gear actually touches down.

Oh yeah. You are only liable for criminal charges if you doze off whe the wheel of your car but hey, what's the big deal at 35,000 feet ?

Scary, and imagine the hundreds of passengers, whose lives depend on just that one person. That's why I am always doubtful when on the plane.

It doesn't have to be planned into the flight.

And doesn't have to be turbulence either.

It could be a simple adjustment required on the altimeter. As the plane crosses over different terrains and such over a long flight, the initial adjustment of the pressure for the altimeter may not be accurate anymore for the current status. When I take off from a certain airport, it might be fixed at 29.92 showing the correct altitude at the current time, but as the flight path progresses, it will need to be tweaked, and the information received from the tower will let us know the right number to put it to.

We have to remember, at the end of the day, these are instruments, tools we use for a purpose. A watch does not always tell the time, it needs to be calibrated to the correct time at the right place, doesn't it.

So if the wrong information is feeding into the auto pilot, it just takes information as is.

What do we know? All news sources say different things. Welcome to the real world.

The real world. Where pilots can drunk,, fall asleep and jack off behind the wheel yet we are all held to a completely diffrent standard when we are driving our cars. What a joke

There was even a news how the pilot and the air hostesses were having the love of their time while flying lol

[JacChang]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Yea, that's how the media is, always trying to sell news. This year, they think readers love to hear about airplane accidents and so on, so anything small would take interest as long as it's related to aviation.

With regards to your post, I am not saying that a further tweaking is required for the flight. You do have to remember what thread we are in. We are trying to find out why the plane dropped 5000 feet. It is still consistent with the fact that grounded units may have radars with indications that differ from the plane's indication. Simply put, if today the altimeter was tweaked constantly due to varying pressures in each location, there may not have been a problem of the fall of 5,000 feet.

We all know, we take off with our watches in local time, and then adjust our watches again upon arrival. That is your point, correct? If I adjust my watch each hour as I pass each country, my watch is accurate to the spot when a certain tower communicates with me on my time. This thread is finding out about the drop of 5,000 feet. So it is one of the possibilities.

You may want to back to go back to ground school. If they are above 18,000 feet, there should not be any tweaking necessary, that's why they, and everyone else uses 29.92. Was that not set correctly? Possible? Was the Transponder sending a wrong signal because of the Encoding Altimeter? Possible. Were the pilot's not taking care of business? Obviously.

Nah, don't have to. Left the aviation industry years ago. Retired investor now.

You missed the point where I tried to correct you on my second posting. Nobody said it was necessary, do you get it now? Stop pushing it there, go ahead and go back and read. Not everything is SOP. You are too concerned about any deviations from protocols. The point here, I repeat, the thread in concern. Why the plane dropped 5,000 feet?

But with regards to your post, 29.92 is not always the magic number. I'll still adjust it according to situations and conditions. The more accurate it is in giving me the right information, the happier I am. If you like to put it there, it's your choice. Like I said, it's a tool. It's useless if it gives the wrong information. I've had to change two altimeters in the same day, because the calibration was way out, either due to mishandling during shipping or what not, who knows. Any drop or increase in pressure will alter the readings, which could significantly or not cause an accident. Pilots thinking the plane is way high, but actually not, hits something, on the news in the past regularly. Safety is very important, so perfection should be aimed. No excuses.

Without more real information from the news, we're left with nothing on this matter. And I doubt the PR of the airline would say the truth.

Yea, that's how the media is, always trying to sell news. This year, they think readers love to hear about airplane accidents and so on, so anything small would take interest as long as it's related to aviation.

With regards to your post, I am not saying that a further tweaking is required for the flight. You do have to remember what thread we are in. We are trying to find out why the plane dropped 5000 feet. It is still consistent with the fact that grounded units may have radars with indications that differ from the plane's indication. Simply put, if today the altimeter was tweaked constantly due to varying pressures in each location, there may not have been a problem of the fall of 5,000 feet.

We all know, we take off with our watches in local time, and then adjust our watches again upon arrival. That is your point, correct? If I adjust my watch each hour as I pass each country, my watch is accurate to the spot when a certain tower communicates with me on my time. This thread is finding out about the drop of 5,000 feet. So it is one of the possibilities.

Altimeters in High Level Flight are not set by radio. They Internationally use a standard pressure setting so that all aircraft are then at the same flight level relative to each other. Low level or VFR flight however usually means setting the pressure to that existing in the area of light as given in the weather announcements for each aerodromes flight area.

LOL, who sets it by radio. Do explain.

Aircrafts are NOT at the same flight level relative to each other, they will take directions from the tower as to what altitude they can fly in. And your third sentence is basically repeating what beechguy and me are saying. Thanks for reminding what we already know. Stick to the tread and offer valuable information as to why the plane could have dropped 5,000 feet.

[harrry]

Without more real information from the news, we're left with nothing on this matter. And I doubt the PR of the airline would say the truth.

Yea, that's how the media is, always trying to sell news. This year, they think readers love to hear about airplane accidents and so on, so anything small would take interest as long as it's related to aviation.

With regards to your post, I am not saying that a further tweaking is required for the flight. You do have to remember what thread we are in. We are trying to find out why the plane dropped 5000 feet. It is still consistent with the fact that grounded units may have radars with indications that differ from the plane's indication. Simply put, if today the altimeter was tweaked constantly due to varying pressures in each location, there may not have been a problem of the fall of 5,000 feet.

We all know, we take off with our watches in local time, and then adjust our watches again upon arrival. That is your point, correct? If I adjust my watch each hour as I pass each country, my watch is accurate to the spot when a certain tower communicates with me on my time. This thread is finding out about the drop of 5,000 feet. So it is one of the possibilities.

Altimeters in High Level Flight are not set by radio. They Internationally use a standard pressure setting so that all aircraft are then at the same flight level relative to each other. Low level or VFR flight however usually means setting the pressure to that existing in the area of light as given in the weather announcements for each aerodromes flight area.

LOL, who sets it by radio. Do explain.

Aircrafts are NOT at the same flight level relative to each other, they will take directions from the tower as to what altitude they can fly in. And your third sentence is basically repeating what beechguy and me are saying. Thanks for reminding what we already know. Stick to the tread and offer valuable information as to why the plane could have dropped 5,000 feet.

Actually as Simon who has the Aviation Herald site has said a study of the actual Flight radar readings show there was no altitude deviation. As he said media beatup by one anonomous post.

It is not on the Aviation Herald site as that only has real incidents but is posted by him on the PPRUNE site.

So no incident lot of talk about nothing.

[JacChang]

Without more real information from the news, we're left with nothing on this matter. And I doubt the PR of the airline would say the truth.

Yea, that's how the media is, always trying to sell news. This year, they think readers love to hear about airplane accidents and so on, so anything small would take interest as long as it's related to aviation.

With regards to your post, I am not saying that a further tweaking is required for the flight. You do have to remember what thread we are in. We are trying to find out why the plane dropped 5000 feet. It is still consistent with the fact that grounded units may have radars with indications that differ from the plane's indication. Simply put, if today the altimeter was tweaked constantly due to varying pressures in each location, there may not have been a problem of the fall of 5,000 feet.

We all know, we take off with our watches in local time, and then adjust our watches again upon arrival. That is your point, correct? If I adjust my watch each hour as I pass each country, my watch is accurate to the spot when a certain tower communicates with me on my time. This thread is finding out about the drop of 5,000 feet. So it is one of the possibilities.

Altimeters in High Level Flight are not set by radio. They Internationally use a standard pressure setting so that all aircraft are then at the same flight level relative to each other. Low level or VFR flight however usually means setting the pressure to that existing in the area of light as given in the weather announcements for each aerodromes flight area.

LOL, who sets it by radio. Do explain.

Aircrafts are NOT at the same flight level relative to each other, they will take directions from the tower as to what altitude they can fly in. And your third sentence is basically repeating what beechguy and me are saying. Thanks for reminding what we already know. Stick to the tread and offer valuable information as to why the plane could have dropped 5,000 feet.

Actually as Simon who has the Aviation Herald site has said a study of the actual Flight radar readings show there was no altitude deviation. As he said media beatup by one anonomous post.

It is not on the Aviation Herald site as that only has real incidents but is posted by him on the PPRUNE site.

So no incident lot of talk about nothing.

Just checked the references. So this thread is basically useless, the news that reported the incident that never happened. Case closed.

[beechguy]

JacChang, thank you for leaving aviation, you have made the world a safer place.

29.92 is standard used, when aircraft are above 18,000 Ft. When below, yes, you do make adjustments, but this topic is about an aircraft descending from 34K to 29K. You probably weren't flying at those altitudes were you.

Setting altitude by radio, Air Traffic Control, AWOS, ATIS, etc.

Yes, I've changed a few altimeters in my career, 30 years, and I'm still in aviation. So if you want to try to BS somebody, take it somewhere else, where they don't know any better.

Edited August 18, 2014 by beechguy

[phantomfiddler]

Strange that there were no mentions of the nationalities of the pilots involved. Totally unacceptable that all the pilots were asleep, and having read a recent article stating that 40% of pilots coming from one of the largest asian countries were flying on forged qualifications just makes one want to jump up and book a flight