30 billion baht loan to shore up falling rubber prices

[chotthee]

There is too much rice, the prices fall.

There is too little rice, the prices rise.

There is too much rubber, the prices fall.

There is too little rubber, the prices rise.

It's called the law of offer and demand.

Could someone teach the Thais about this law, even when it was not invented by a Thai?

Way before money was invented, the cavemen they already knew about offer and demand...

If Prayuth governemt can spend 30 billion to buy up rubber stock, Thailand will left with: "There is too little rubber, the prices rise."

[FRR]

I wasn't popping at Thailand, but I was popping at the whole concept of government subsidies in any country. What happened to the simple logic of selling what you grow to the consumers? You're right -- EU, UK, USA; NZ; Oz, etc all do it, but why?

Nope....u r wrong....NZ stopped subsidies to farmers in 1984....was done by a left wing government...many squells etc but it made the farmers much more productive...in as much I think they now lead the world in productivity

My apologies for lumping you Kiwis in with the the rest of the bad lot

You might want to reconsider OZ as well:

Infographic: An OECD chart shows the level of subsidies received by farmers in different countries. (ABC Fact Check )

[nong38]

Does sound a bit like Rice II. Prayuth on TV a couple of weeks ago said that the farmers currently producing rubber should look at cultivating another crop as it would flood the market and the price would only go one way. How would the loan be paid back if they cannot seel the stuff at a good market price?

[fatfather]

The rubber price has always been jumping up and down (last peak was beginning of 2011) but in the long view, rubber prices are going up. Somebody mentioned that China is growing rubber but I doubt it makes much sense. Rubber trees are only productive in a certain distance from the equator, China seems to be to far North. Currently I think that the lobby behind the rubber industry in Thailand is taking a to big piece of the cake, so that there is nothing left for the weakest link in the chain, the peasant. I'm sure that the big dealers still make their share, even the prices are down. As in many other countries as well, the big dealers only regulate their greed when someone even bigger comes and tell them that it is enough now....

Fatfather

[Emster23]

Hey let's cool down and look at the bright side of life. I guess rubber won't rot as fast as rice does in the warehouses. And think of employment and investment in all those new warehouses! Existing ones at full capacity due to last evil action by those nasty redshirts, not this wonderful humanist group now bringing happiness and free ice cream. Thailand: The Hub of Warehouses!

[bangrak]

Sounds like the now-defunct rice scheme was just one of these crazy ideas. I never understand the thinking behind these....

Part of Suthep's (a southern) promise.

Aha, so, according to you it was not during the 'Thaksin regime' that farmers were pushed to switch from rice to rubber, with money offered to, and sapplings by the millions, and the usual corruption? Did I get that wrong, or...? Wasn't it another populist masterplan from the Pr. Dr. in Dubai now?

Thailand's gonna control the world market of rice, and the world market of rubber... look now where the country stands! Blind theories made up in one crazy man's head for his own glory (and money...), totally ignoring there are other countries in the world, also producing rice, rubber, etc. Welcome to the lunatics' house!

This plan was hatched by the Thai Rubber exporters who were faced with a problem of ageing production in the South and growing unrest in the area making it risky to work there. So they went to the govt and got the plan together to migrate the crop to the North East. The plan was that a lot of plantations wouldn't be replanted in the South and would just expire and slowly production would migrate to the NE. Someone mentioned that China has started big production of rubber themselves. Hadnt heard that, but if they have, then prices will stay low for a very very long time. Big problems.

So, as I had learned about that from Thaksin governments' (populist) programs and read more about it in TRT, PPP and PTP propaganda, you're telling me those were all pure lies? Now I'm feeling concerned...

[HUAHIN62]

I wasn't popping at Thailand, but I was popping at the whole concept of government subsidies in any country. What happened to the simple logic of selling what you grow to the consumers? You're right -- EU, UK, USA; NZ; Oz, etc all do it, but why?

Buying votes ??

[BillyBobThai]

Along with reading, writing and arithmetic, economics should be taught each year to students from all countries.

[chotthee]

Hey let's cool down and look at the bright side of life. I guess rubber won't rot as fast as rice does in the warehouses. And think of employment and investment in all those new warehouses! Existing ones at full capacity due to last evil action by those nasty redshirts, not this wonderful humanist group now bringing happiness and free ice cream. Thailand: The Hub of Warehouses!

Rubber won't rot.

But rubber harden.

Ever use an expired condoms?

Do use a car tire past exp date?

Old rubber band that melts?

O-ring that doesn't seal?

Old eraser that doesn't erase?

Edited August 21, 2014 by chotthee

[AGareth2]

subsidy for cassava please

[Bob12345]

I wasn't popping at Thailand, but I was popping at the whole concept of government subsidies in any country. What happened to the simple logic of selling what you grow to the consumers? You're right -- EU, UK, USA; NZ; Oz, etc all do it, but why?

Buying votes ??

Right, certain groups unite and have therefore good bargaining power.

Agricultural products are often subsidized as a group of united farmers was able in the past to claim a bigger piece of the pie at the costs of the majority. The majority (the consumers and tax payers) are often referred to as the "silent majority" as they do not have a voice in this as long as they do not unity.

[belg]

after rice berg, now rubber berg ?

next thing is : give the farmers money to not grow ?

[Krataiboy]

Why should ordinary hard-working taxpayers' money be used to bail out a failing business - be it a bank or a rubber plantation?

[tonbridgebrit]

I really do think a lot of markets in the world are 'rigged' !
And what's so wrong about rigging a market IF it benefits your own nation ?

The stuff posted by FFR is highly interesting.
You notice how Norway subsidises it's own farmers in a massive way. Surely, they're using some of their oil money to do this ? Yes, they'd rather pay their own farmers a higher price than import cheaper food from America and elsewhere. Also, barriers to prevent a flood of cheaper imported food. So, the country's oil is being partly used to prevent it's own farmers heading into bankruptcy.

And Switzerland. It probably turns out that taxes on the country's banking and finance sector is being used to subsidise their own farmers. Again, a profit making part of the economy is being used to subsidise a non-profit making part.

And the rest of those countries, they're in a similar boat. And China, we all know they rigg THEIR market to make sure that THEY get the biggest benefits. Do people realise that foreign companies operating in China don't actually find it dead easy to make a massive percentage return on their capital outlay ? That's probably because the Beijing government deliberately tries to rig or manipulate the vast Chinese market (the market for goods and services inside China) so that the bulk of the profits will be in Chinese hands. And who can blame the Chinese for doing this ?

Rupert Murdoch, that Australian (actually, he's American now) man. He turned up in Britain, and created SKY television. SKY is almost a monopoly operator for satellite and cable television in Britain. Murdoch tried to go to China, and I think he was hoping to set up a massive satellite television company in China. Imagine the giant profits from the monthly subscribers even if Murdoch had just a quarter of the vast Chinese market ?? It never happened, because, because Beijing didn't want a foreigner earning a giant fortune in China. Beijing wanted the bulk of the money to stay in "Chinese hands". "Rigged capitalism", that's what it is.

Can Thailand do things like rigg it's own market for food and agricultural products ? Can Thailand do things like protect and aid it's own people ? Or will Thailand import (and make foreign producers rich) and bankrupt it's own people ? How about Thailand protects it's own producers when those producers are in mega-rich Thai families. But if those producers are from Thailand's poor and ordinary people, well, let them compete against foreigners, and earn very little profits. Let the rice farmers and rubber farmers go into bankruptcy ! How much of the rubber production (the percentage) is the hands of the mega-rich ?

[Nuddy]

The rubber is run by extremely rich Barons of the world.

I am not sure which country owns the rubber Thailand.

However when we Aussies were fighting communism in the Vietnam rubber plantations we were discouraged from using our weapons on automatic because they damaged too many rubber trees.

You can imagine how that went over.

We all saw the French wailing about damage to their trees after a mild contact.

The M-60 Machine gun would cut down kilometres of those trees.

The trees didn't belong to the Vietnamese but the French! And Australia apparently had to reimburse for these damaged trees.

Who owns the trees in Thailand? I doubt it the Thai people.

Why give so much money to foreign owners?

[Mosha]

Sounds like the now-defunct rice scheme was just one of these crazy ideas. I never understand the thinking behind these....

Part of Suthep's (a southern) promise.

Aha, so, according to you it was not during the 'Thaksin regime' that farmers were pushed to switch from rice to rubber, with money offered to, and sapplings by the millions, and the usual corruption? Did I get that wrong, or...? Wasn't it another populist masterplan from the Pr. Dr. in Dubai now?

Thailand's gonna control the world market of rice, and the world market of rubber... look now where the country stands! Blind theories made up in one crazy man's head for his own glory (and money...), totally ignoring there are other countries in the world, also producing rice, rubber, etc. Welcome to the lunatics' house!

This plan was hatched by the Thai Rubber exporters who were faced with a problem of ageing production in the South and growing unrest in the area making it risky to work there. So they went to the govt and got the plan together to migrate the crop to the North East. The plan was that a lot of plantations wouldn't be replanted in the South and would just expire and slowly production would migrate to the NE. Someone mentioned that China has started big production of rubber themselves. Hadnt heard that, but if they have, then prices will stay low for a very very long time. Big problems.

There is 5M Rai coming on line this year From W. Africa to Southern China.

[tonbridgebrit]

The rubber is run by extremely rich Barons of the world.

I am not sure which country owns the rubber Thailand.

However when we Aussies were fighting communism in the Vietnam rubber plantations we were discouraged from using our weapons on automatic because they damaged too many rubber trees.

You can imagine how that went over.

We all saw the French wailing about damage to their trees after a mild contact.

The M-60 Machine gun would cut down kilometres of those trees.

The trees didn't belong to the Vietnamese but the French! And Australia apparently had to reimburse for these damaged trees.

Who owns the trees in Thailand? I doubt it the Thai people.

Why give so much money to foreign owners?

Hello Nuddy.

Thanks for your interesting comment !

When I said small producers, I meant producers who have put, say, five million baht or less, into a project. and they're hoping to sell the produce at a decent profit later on. And I do think, that when small operators risk making a loss, well, that's when the market will not be rigged to benefit or save them.

Now then, when a particular industry is worth a vast amount of money, and a very small number of operators make up the bulk of the industry (maybe, the biggest seven operators control three-quarters of the market for that particular product, or just three big boys practically own the entire market), well, yes, that's when you will probably see "protectionism" !

Is Thailand going to protect it's "big boys", and not protect it's "little boys" ??

[Carrerakiss]

Why the massive condemnation of Thailand's attempt to subsidise rice and rubber ?

In Japan, they have massive barriers against American rice, if they didn't, well, most of Japan's rice farmers would be bankrupt. And South Korea is in a similar situation.

How many billions does the EU (or they use to, anyway) spend on farm subsidies ?

Why have pop at Thailand, when basically, a whole load of other countries do similar things ? Are we going to have a pop at the other countries ?

The issue with subsidies is time frame. It's all very well asking for, in this case, 30billion baht to shore up prices, but how long will that money shore up prices for, at what price level and what happens when the 30billion baht loan money runs out?

If the authorities don't have answers to the above questions, they are throwing money away because once the money is gone, they will have to deal with real world prices.

[rubl]

Sounds like the now-defunct rice scheme was just one of these crazy ideas. I never understand the thinking behind these....

Part of Suthep's (a southern) promise.

A re-tooling of an old Suthep scandal. What is next? Palm oil "subsidy"?

The country has seen that movie before. Money will vanish mysteriously... TIT

Interesting that member iancnx mentioned the millions invested in N. Thailand to plan rubber trees. Must have been part of that Suthep (southern) promise

[MichaelJohn]

You can't mess with World prices. If the prices is falling it's for a reason; low demand. The concept is that discourages people from growing ........

You won't believe it but long live the Dandelion ... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/20/uk-dandelion-rubber-feature-idUKKBN0GK0LK20140820

[Bender]

time to build new warehouse to stock all these rubber

[SteveFong]

this is a gift to Yingluck,

if this goes through, her rice policy will be justified

[Thai at Heart]

Sounds like the now-defunct rice scheme was just one of these crazy ideas. I never understand the thinking behind these....

Part of Suthep's (a southern) promise.

Aha, so, according to you it was not during the 'Thaksin regime' that farmers were pushed to switch from rice to rubber, with money offered to, and sapplings by the millions, and the usual corruption? Did I get that wrong, or...? Wasn't it another populist masterplan from the Pr. Dr. in Dubai now?

Thailand's gonna control the world market of rice, and the world market of rubber... look now where the country stands! Blind theories made up in one crazy man's head for his own glory (and money...), totally ignoring there are other countries in the world, also producing rice, rubber, etc. Welcome to the lunatics' house!

This plan was hatched by the Thai Rubber exporters who were faced with a problem of ageing production in the South and growing unrest in the area making it risky to work there. So they went to the govt and got the plan together to migrate the crop to the North East. The plan was that a lot of plantations wouldn't be replanted in the South and would just expire and slowly production would migrate to the NE. Someone mentioned that China has started big production of rubber themselves. Hadnt heard that, but if they have, then prices will stay low for a very very long time. Big problems.

So, as I had learned about that from Thaksin governments' (populist) programs and read more about it in TRT, PPP and PTP propaganda, you're telling me those were all pure lies? Now I'm feeling concerned...

Well the plan wasn't put into place to benefit farmers. You can't be a rubber exporter if you haven't got rubber.

The exporters wanted it, trt facilitated it. These exporters are traditionally democrat but they don't care they will deal with anyone. They have business in Indonesia and are probably in China too.

I read up about Chinese production . it is in south west China so I wonder how much it is. These exporters have no loyalty to Thailand at all. Everything is transfer priced out of Singapore.

They deliver the supply the world need and take a clip whether the price is $1 or $100. They don't give a damn if the farmer can make a living.

[Thai at Heart]

The rubber is run by extremely rich Barons of the world.

I am not sure which country owns the rubber Thailand.

However when we Aussies were fighting communism in the Vietnam rubber plantations we were discouraged from using our weapons on automatic because they damaged too many rubber trees.

You can imagine how that went over.

We all saw the French wailing about damage to their trees after a mild contact.

The M-60 Machine gun would cut down kilometres of those trees.

The trees didn't belong to the Vietnamese but the French! And Australia apparently had to reimburse for these damaged trees.

Who owns the trees in Thailand? I doubt it the Thai people.

Why give so much money to foreign owners?

Thai Chinese companies with operations in Indonesia and sales and financing in Singapore.

They have no loyalty to Thailand.

[tonbridgebrit]

The rubber is run by extremely rich Barons of the world.

I am not sure which country owns the rubber Thailand.

However when we Aussies were fighting communism in the Vietnam rubber plantations we were discouraged from using our weapons on automatic because they damaged too many rubber trees.

You can imagine how that went over.

We all saw the French wailing about damage to their trees after a mild contact.

The M-60 Machine gun would cut down kilometres of those trees.

The trees didn't belong to the Vietnamese but the French! And Australia apparently had to reimburse for these damaged trees.

Who owns the trees in Thailand? I doubt it the Thai people.

Why give so much money to foreign owners?

Thai Chinese companies with operations in Indonesia and sales and financing in Singapore.

They have no loyalty to Thailand.

Oh, Thai at Heart ! A bit more China bashing by you.

So the Chinese rig the system, they make sure that it's them who benefit. Everybody else only gets a little bit.

Thailand should try and do the same thing !

[Thai at Heart]

The rubber is run by extremely rich Barons of the world.

I am not sure which country owns the rubber Thailand.

However when we Aussies were fighting communism in the Vietnam rubber plantations we were discouraged from using our weapons on automatic because they damaged too many rubber trees.

You can imagine how that went over.

We all saw the French wailing about damage to their trees after a mild contact.

The M-60 Machine gun would cut down kilometres of those trees.

The trees didn't belong to the Vietnamese but the French! And Australia apparently had to reimburse for these damaged trees.

Who owns the trees in Thailand? I doubt it the Thai people.

Why give so much money to foreign owners?

Thai Chinese companies with operations in Indonesia and sales and financing in Singapore.

They have no loyalty to Thailand.

Oh, Thai at Heart ! A bit more China bashing by you.

So the Chinese rig the system, they make sure that it's them who benefit. Everybody else only gets a little bit.

Thailand should try and do the same thing !

They are Thai Chinese not Chinese. They started in the south of Thailand, went into Malaysia and also into indinesia

They control the market.they are not losing one minute of sleep over the low prices, they are middle men. Go read about them Thai hua, Southland and the rest. They have govts in their pocket, as do the palm oil and rice companies.

Don't be nice about the influence and power of south east Asian chinese. These claim to be Thai companies and foreign companies are prevented from entering Thai markets without a joint venture.

They are monopolists and exploiters of the market and the Thai farmer must suffer. Who plans how much to produce. These companies do with the assistance of the govt.

[SteveFong]

the recent failure of John Kerry to strong arm the Indian gov't into signing a trade agreement that limited their ability to allow their own farmers to feed their own people, is the turning point that brings food production back into the hands of local governments

Thailand would be wise to review this departure from US and globalist control policies and start watching out for their own, as no one else will

[tonbridgebrit]

The rubber is run by extremely rich Barons of the world.

I am not sure which country owns the rubber Thailand.

However when we Aussies were fighting communism in the Vietnam rubber plantations we were discouraged from using our weapons on automatic because they damaged too many rubber trees.

You can imagine how that went over.

We all saw the French wailing about damage to their trees after a mild contact.

The M-60 Machine gun would cut down kilometres of those trees.

The trees didn't belong to the Vietnamese but the French! And Australia apparently had to reimburse for these damaged trees.

Who owns the trees in Thailand? I doubt it the Thai people.

Why give so much money to foreign owners?

Thai Chinese companies with operations in Indonesia and sales and financing in Singapore.

They have no loyalty to Thailand.

Oh, Thai at Heart ! A bit more China bashing by you.

So the Chinese rig the system, they make sure that it's them who benefit. Everybody else only gets a little bit.

Thailand should try and do the same thing !

They are Thai Chinese not Chinese. They started in the south of Thailand, went into Malaysia and also into indinesia

They control the market.they are not losing one minute of sleep over the low prices, they are middle men. Go read about them Thai hua, Southland and the rest. They have govts in their pocket, as do the palm oil and rice companies.

Don't be nice about the influence and power of south east Asian chinese. These claim to be Thai companies and foreign companies are prevented from entering Thai markets without a joint venture.

They are monopolists and exploiters of the market and the Thai farmer must suffer. Who plans how much to produce. These companies do with the assistance of the govt.

"Rigged Capitalism", or is it called "Crony capitalism" ? At one time, some people called it "Asian values" !

Still, as long as the economies of South East Asia grow at above 5% per cent per year, everybody is happy. There won't be social breakdown or revolution, even though the benefits of plus 5% annual economic growth is mostly going into the pockets of the 'middle-class" and mega-rich. Well, it looks like it anyway !

[tonbridgebrit]

the recent failure of John Kerry to strong arm the Indian gov't into signing a trade agreement that limited their ability to allow their own farmers to feed their own people, is the turning point that brings food production back into the hands of local governments

Thailand would be wise to review this departure from US and globalist control policies and start watching out for their own, as no one else will

I think India has an economy that is big enough to let it not be strong-armed by the USA.

But surely, little Thailand is too small ! Big is beautiful, but Thailand is not big enough.

[SteveFong]

Thai people are in growth mode,

as long as the global economy doesnt collapse, Thailand will continue to grow

Thai people seem happier than most Americans