Digital nomad, online workers.. Permission !

[stingOldway]

I checked in to this about one year ago, and several conditions apply

You must be employed in your home country, and be payed by your employer in your home country, You need to get your salary in your home country and pay all taxes there.

You can not write a single line of code for a Thai company, You can not get payed by having money sent to your thai account,

But if you work for, as an example, a Swedish company, that makes home pages for other Swedish companies and you get your salary in Sweden by that Swedish company, and you pay Swedish taxes you are allow to sit here in Thailand and work on a Tourist Visa.

Exactly, and there are some few examples out there. Those are staying without problems or hassle.

But the digital nomads actually crying in that WebBoard does not certainly work any company located in any country and they certainly do not pay any taxes to any places (but VAT).

Those people love freedom ( I do respect them for that), but refuse to afford the cost of said freedom (freedom being the most expensive stuff human being strive to possess). But they would like others to pay for them (fighting their fight, taking side for them ...)

On the funny note, another posted supposed I was watching dog porn, I confirm I do. He knows it well, as we are members of the same site (saddly he is a paying member, I simply hacked the key of the site )

[shawn82]

So where do you pay taxes if you are a digital nomad?

If you stay XXX amount of days in Thailand they have right to tax you.

Should be no problem on a single visa since you won’t hit the hard limit on days in the country.

(and I don’t remember but its around 180 days at least for Swedes were the tax should be payed in Thailand instead of Sweden.

And when the Thai government understands that they can earn a ton of tax money on this: could be ”fun”.)

[LivinLOS]

.

Double post sorry, but I still think the 'government' and immigration system has shot itself in the foot, leg and goolies by not creating a new visa for farang who can make ample amounts of moolah on the internet legally, it is easily done in many different ways, and it takes away no jobs from the oh so precious Thai work force, and the money goes straight into the economy. Why have they not addressed this properly?

Because verifying income and calculating tax payments would be very hard, if not impossible, to verify.

All governments demand taxes.. Thailand would be no different.

You said it LL.

These nomads want to dodge taxes. That's all there is to it.

'nuff said

~

Not so in all cases. What about nomads who have a business registered in another country and pay taxes there. All above board!

Thailand does not operate a 183 day DTA exception like OECD / Euro / Western countries..

Thailand demands taxation on day 1 from money earned while working within the kingdom.

[j8k]

Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I am no different to anyone visiting Thailand, such as someone checking their work email while on vacation, someone writing or researching for a book (e.g. does a Lonely Planet researcher have a work permit?) or someone playing the stock market, online poker or even moving money around from bank accounts to investing.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

Edited August 21, 2014 by j8k

[JLCrab]

So, in Thailand, the real Digital Nomad must be very very little, I would guess less than a hundred;

Utter nonsense.

There are likely thousands and thousands.

I class myself as a 'Digital Nomad'. I play the stock market, I write iPhone apps for UK clients, I have an online e-commerce site which trades solely in the UK.

I spend all my profits in whichever country I prefer to be in, and for the most part that country is Thailand. I am not taking Thai jobs, I am injecting their economy with 'free' cash.

Thailand should welcome people like me, it is a win win for them.

Whether you take any jobs from a Thai citizen or not, you are also not providing any jobs or contracting for services from Thai based companies. If you did, you would not have to be concerned about what they should do as they would welcome you and they would already see that as a win-win for them.

Edited August 21, 2014 by JLCrab

[slygeeza]

in any case, its practically unpolicable, If you want you can use the internet anonymously, and you can move money around anonymously as well, its very easy to leave no traces and why would you not want to?

[LivinLOS]

Let us say, a genuine tourist comes to Thailand for a few weeks. Most probably this tourist is a employee in his home country or he run his own business. While he stay in Thailand, he do some work online. Whatever... do conversations with clients, write blogs and so on. How could this be illegal?

But it is.. You sday how could it be ?? By writing the law and making it the law of the land.

Hello @LivingLOS

Can you point us to that law of the land please?

Thanks

TL

I assume you mean this one

http://www.asianlii.org/th/legis/consol_act/woaa1978184/

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit;

[jacko45k]

So the guy in Chiang Mai says..........

Was the guy from Hua Hin who started a lot of rumours with him?

I would like these announcements to come from the top man, who likely is in Bangkok, as retractions and contradictions only confuse.

[Sortapundit]

A few people talking about tax in this thread.

Remember, tax avoidance is a legal and logical exercise. Tax dodging is not.

Agreed, it's an important distinction. I'm not liable to pay income tax in any country, because I don't stay in any one country long enough to be legally resident (by chance rather than by design). I continued to pay tax and NI in the UK, just to keep my hand in and keep things simple should I ever decide to return, but I've now decided to stop, because I don't owe it and it would be foolish to continue paying money I don't owe.

So, yeah. This is tax avoidance, and it's perfectly legal and sensible. Tax evasion is a different matter, and it's probably committed by lots of people who describe themselves as digital nomads and live permanently in Thailand on tourist an ED visas. That said, I can't bring myself to care about it.

[Soutpeel]

How about that. Allow the funding of a special type of company which only allows incoming transactions of foreign companies and only allows 1 foreign worker with work permit. Easy...!

there is a vehicle already similar to this already its called a representive office.... dont need 4 Thai employees and will allow a a foreigner a WP....so yes easy as its already there

[TheSiemReaper]

I love the idea that digital nomads have to be paupers. I clear more as a digital nomad than most multi-national's farang senior managers do in Thailand. As nowhere in Asia seem to want to make it easy for me to get residency and pay taxes (despite taking zero jobs from anyone); I've structured my incorporated status offshore and pay zero tax anywhere. That means I now make a LOT more than a senior manager of a multi-national in Thailand. Go figure.

[darkian]

So, in Thailand, the real Digital Nomad must be very very little, I would guess less than a hundred;

Utter nonsense.

There are likely thousands and thousands.

I class myself as a 'Digital Nomad'. I play the stock market, I write iPhone apps for UK clients, I have an online e-commerce site which trades solely in the UK.

I spend all my profits in whichever country I prefer to be in, and for the most part that country is Thailand. I am not taking Thai jobs, I am injecting their economy with 'free' cash.

Thailand should welcome people like me, it is a win win for them.

Unfortunately Gifford there are some bizarre ignorant opinions on this forum relating to the matter of 'digital nomads'.

Even when such people are not taking work away from a local business by being here there are still people queueing up in puppet fashion to witter on about avoiding taxes and needed a WP.

Let's look at this in a way that even someone aged 5 could understand:

Thailand with no digital nomads: Jobs for Thais = X Tax = T Money spent in Thailand = M

Thailand WITH digital nomads: Jobs for Thais = X Tax = T Money spent in Thailand = M+

Oh look - the only thing that changed is more money got spent in Thailand! BUT THIS MUST BE ENFORCED AS ILLEGAL!! BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE LAW! BECAUSE OF THE RULES!

...but... why?

If Immigration do make this official then it's because they're not stupid.

Seriously, I love the bitterness of some of the people on here with their ridiculous arguments, and the fact that they're so desperately trying to win a little rosette for being law abiders despite the fact so much underhand stuff goes on around here.

[HooHaa]

.

Double post sorry, but I still think the 'government' and immigration system has shot itself in the foot, leg and goolies by not creating a new visa for farang who can make ample amounts of moolah on the internet legally, it is easily done in many different ways, and it takes away no jobs from the oh so precious Thai work force, and the money goes straight into the economy. Why have they not addressed this properly?

Because verifying income and calculating tax payments would be very hard, if not impossible, to verify.

All governments demand taxes.. Thailand would be no different.

You said it LL.

These nomads want to dodge taxes. That's all there is to it.

'nuff said

~

i'm sorry minimizing your tax exposure is bad how?

perhaps you would be happy to pay more, but i am certainly not.

[stingOldway]

Respectfully, the world has changed drastically in the past ten years. In just the past five, the fortune 100 company I worked for in NYC moved to a virtual office format. Full-time and part-time employees whose jobs can be performed remotely are now virtual. The primary reason is that the company was able to drastically reduce costs by not having a need for leasing expensive floor space at NYC prices. Employees are not required to come into the office, but some do four days out of office and one day in the office. As a result, there are no assigned cubicles. You pick a desk and plug in the laptop. Consultants have zero requirement to be in the office unless requested by the leader that contracted the individual. As a result, consultants can work anywhere in the world. The range of positions that can be successfully performed remotely range from project managers, technology based positions, any marketing position, and many, many more. Before I left the company, I routinely worked with global partners within the company some of which were virtual and others based in other company sites. If I can work with someone in the UK from my desk in the USA, why isn't it so hard to believe that I can do the same work from my virtual office?

Digital nomads are people that have job skills that can be managed in a virtual environment and the global market has shifted drastically to that approach over the years. I do believe that the answer to the question posed was based on the concept of someone that is traveling on vacation and is going to do some work while in Thailand. However, if someone has another Visa type and they have a job or a freelance business based in another country, just exactly how would immigration be aware of that situation? If I live in California and consult for a company in NYC, am I cheating NYC out of taxes because I pay my taxes in California? If I live in California and work for a company in NYC, but I spend three months in Vermont, should I be filing taxes in all three states? Ridiculous. The question isn't where the work is performed, but where the money (salary) is paid. Digital nomads have home bases that act as the conduit for all funds. It is up to Thailand whether they wish to begin requiring actual income records as a part of the requirements for non-immigration Visas. As of now, the requirement is to get a statement from your consulate that you have x number of dollars or that you earn/receive x number of dollars per month. There is no request for your job description or financial/tax records.

I see this as one of those aspects of the global market that is changing how the "traditional" job description is viewed.

That sir is totally correct, in both the formulation and the idea of the laws in most of the countries, including Thailand.

If you are working for a remote company, who pay you in your country (where you will pay the taxes) while you are sitting here, nobody will make problems for you. The exchange being what it is, you will have enough to afford the infamous Elite card at 500 000.

An IT specialist paid a salary in Europe (at a local level) at least will have enough to sustain himself here, and pay for the card after a semester; I presume we all agree on that. As one previous poster who had majority shares in a successful company can do it too , if he so choose.

But I do doubt (to not say I am quite sure of it) the people we are speaking about enter in that category. Somehow I would be glad to be demonstrate I am in the error; but I do not think it will happen (but for some specific cases, who shall better speak with the admin because they obviously were misguided about their visa options). Most of them barely have the living style of Isaan farmers, while they also barely have the knowledge of said Isaan farmers. 13 years I live here and work here, I did met tons of them.

To the question why am I posting here, the response is simple : they are the people who give a bad reputation to the people like me. In each interview I had, I did spend more time to proove I was not one of them that I did spend in demonstrate my skills (or the lack off, because I did failed my share of interview).

One can spend time in Thailand, consult in HK, in UK, in Germany; as long as his company is located let say in Jersey, and pay taxes there; then he will always be a welcome guess in Thailand, and even if said consulting is made from his arm chair in Surin beach or Hua hin. But that person will have a spending power way above the average, even way above mine ...

[duanebigsby]

OP is this serious? This may change everything for a lot of people, and if they knew maybe the Thai economy won't suffer such a blow in the next quarter

I'm sure the collapsing Thai economy will soar now that the digital Nomads can work.

They all claim to be pumping millions and billions of baht into Thailand. Seriously though, I think this is a hiccup by someone speaking out of turn or a misunderstanding. I think he meant to say tourists won't be banged up for answering email or doing online business during their holiday.

[darkian]

I love the idea that digital nomads have to be paupers. I clear more as a digital nomad than most multi-national's farang senior managers do in Thailand. As nowhere in Asia seem to want to make it easy for me to get residency and pay taxes (despite taking zero jobs from anyone); I've structured my incorporated status offshore and pay zero tax anywhere. That means I now make a LOT more than a senior manager of a multi-national in Thailand. Go figure.

Smart guy. But there's this horrible thing called 'tall poppy syndrome', which means if you're smart, do your own thing and end up better off, there'll be a queue of people who weren't as clever looking to bring you down.

[Soutpeel]

lets wait until we see this in writing

the terms and conditions etc.

fact is as far as I can see, this "announcement" has been made by immigration, which strictly speaking has nothing to do with them anyway, this sort of "announcement" would fall under the Department of Labour's (DOL) remit, as immigration dont hand out WP's in the first instance anyway, two different goverment departments

[tlock]

A "good friend of mine" just goes to silicon valley, gets remote contracts at $100+/hr with software companies, and comes back to thailand to do the work. Wash, rinse, repeat. He told me he has to pay taxes in the US, so doesn't want to setup a BOI company. Unfortunately he's not lucky enough to dodge taxes, he just likes thailand for the scuba diving and the weather .

[TheSiemReaper]

I love the idea that digital nomads have to be paupers. I clear more as a digital nomad than most multi-national's farang senior managers do in Thailand. As nowhere in Asia seem to want to make it easy for me to get residency and pay taxes (despite taking zero jobs from anyone); I've structured my incorporated status offshore and pay zero tax anywhere. That means I now make a LOT more than a senior manager of a multi-national in Thailand. Go figure.

Smart guy. But there's this horrible thing called 'tall poppy syndrome', which means if you're smart, do your own thing and end up better off, there'll be a queue of people who weren't as clever looking to bring you down.

Not a lot they can do to bring me down. I bring in my own clients, do all my own work, and the company structure is legit. They can sulk but that's all they can do. Oh the joys of being out of corporate life and not relying on the people around you for your living.

[LivinLOS]

So where do you pay taxes if you are a digital nomad?

If you stay XXX amount of days in Thailand they have right to tax you.

Should be no problem on a single visa since you won’t hit the hard limit on days in the country.

(and I don’t remember but its around 180 days at least for Swedes were the tax should be payed in Thailand instead of Sweden.

And when the Thai government understands that they can earn a ton of tax money on this: could be ”fun”.)

183 days is the OECD model convention to which schengen / euro counties operate.. This is also superceeded depending on source of income, amount fo clients, all manner of variables. It can be day one when working for a local establishment.

Thailand does not operate that the same way. They expect day 1 when working within the kingdom.

[stgrhe]

This question is not a business of Immigration Bureau so any claim by them cannot be taken seriously. Furthermore, it is forbidden by law and a law will allways take precedence of any orally made statement or other documents issued by the Government.

[Alwyn]

With reference to the story above from the Chiang Mai City News, this is the first Thaivisa has heard about 'digital nomads' (or anyone else for that matter) being able to legally work on a tourist visa. We don't know if this confirmed, if it only applies to Chiang Mai or if it's nationwide.

We doubt this is the last we have heard of this story but we will try and seek further clarification regarding this matter.

/Moderating team

I'm kind of guessing here but based on the fact a person needs a WP to help charity organization, the idea of 'digital nomads' being allowed to work here on the quiet is pretty remote? Heck I was told i was not allowed to do my own garden or paint my house without a WP. I had one but was told it was the wrong one!! Methinks this is nonsense!

[darkian]

Not a lot they can do to bring me down. I bring in my own clients, do all my own work, and the company structure is legit. They can sulk but that's all they can do. Oh the joys of being out of corporate life and not relying on the people around you for your living.

Indeed.

I'm yet to see anyone make a coherent argument against digital nomads in terms of giving a reason why Thailand is worse off with them here.

So far I see a lot of bitter people upset because they pay tax/queue up or marry someone for a visa/have to work for lower pay. Still waiting to hear someone tell me what harm the digital nomads are doing. Saying 'oh it's against the law' is not enough.

[laobali]

Some posters in this forum should seriously consider joining (or founding) Hypocrites Anonymous

[Horton Jones]

This is absolutely incomprehensible.... of course it's not true.... it would be too easy, eh?! What I know from a few years living (legally) in Thailand is that the "fine line" between helping the Farang, being polite, accommodating -- dare I say welcoming, encouraging -- and the opposite... terse edicts, hard-lined policies, multi-layed, Thai-centric immigration laws and policies MUST BE HELD. Watch for clarification in the coming days. This is by far a too friendly and helpful statement; it shall not last. Thai government and immigration are tightening, restricting. A friend of mine, who runs a small but wonderful children's home with his wife, plus goes off teaching English in schools every day, speaks fluent Thai... spent TWENTY hours over three days last week just to get his blasted Visa renewed. Can you imagine? This is how they treat an amazing, dedicated Farang and his family?? To quote U2: HOW LONG? HOW LONG? HOW LONG TO SING THIS SONG?

Edited August 21, 2014 by Horton Jones

[gpnexxus]

So if you have online shops that you can earn a living you stay?

I am already fueling my thai bank account weekly and is not clear to me whether I should look for starting a physical located business in Thailand or continue with exclusively with my online business.

I am not alone though. I have a wife and kid that in a couple of years will go to school

[JLCrab]

If someone came on here and said "I work in Thailand and I take lots of jobs away from Thai citizens" would it make any difference in terms of visa, work permit, or extension of stay? People are always saying I work here but I don't take any jobs away from Thai people but I don't see what difference that makes. They also don't provide any jobs for Thai people which is how the deck is currently stacked.

Edited August 21, 2014 by JLCrab

[j8k]

I am guessing the hostility from other foreigners on this forum towards digital nomads is based on the fact they are frustrated with their own lowly earning power in the Kingdom, e.g. a few hundred dollars a month for teaching English to a load of little brats.

I wouldn't get out of my deck chair for that! lol.

[MILT]

Different answers to the same or similar question is not uncommon here.

I would suspect that while his answer implies that you can work here in Thailand on a tourist visa via the internet

I would think that tourist visa extensions based on working on the internet will not happen.

What say ye UbonJoe. Is this a potential loop hole or just a vague reply and not really braking it down clearly.

[SiggiCM]

There are very different styles of digital nomad.

Two examples;

1. Someone who create websites for his customers in Europe.

(he have customers who give him orders. Actually, a Thai person could do this job too)

2. Someone who trading US stocks in US exchanges.

(he have no customers. Actually he do only online banking and, nobody else could do this job for him)

BTW; can we expect still the outcome of the interview which Thaivisa.com did with a Immigration officer?

It is not ileagal working online for customers in other country´s,

Or can anybody tell 1 exaple that anybody got fined because of working online like this? No!

Thailand can not offer a Visa for this, if they would offer, it would mean that this person could work also in Thailand,

in the thai market, you cant say you can stay in thailand and work and pay tax but only allowed serve customers outside

thailand.

Peopel who stay here and offer work outside, not brake the law in Thailand but in the country´s they offer and do their work.

No country can give a permission to work in another country, this should understand even a small child!!!!!!!