Sauna In Bangkok

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, fair enough as long as we make the qualification that the incidence of infection listed in his report mainly applies to the most promiscuous sector of the population. However, wouldn't that make the figures for straight people pretty high too, if they were available in a similarly slanted way?

It doesn't seem to make any sense to me to concentrate the people most at risk of a disease and make conclusions regarding statistics of the entire population based on that small group, and your first message quoting it used data from this survey to justify a conclusion about HIV prevalence rate among MSM in Bangkok in general, not simply in sauna frequenters. I don't find that conclusion believable.

"Steven"

[Redford]

Well, fair enough as long as we make the qualification that the incidence of infection listed in his report mainly applies to the most promiscuous sector of the population. However, wouldn't that make the figures for straight people pretty high too, if they were available in a similarly slanted way?

It doesn't seem to make any sense to me to concentrate the people most at risk of a disease and make conclusions regarding statistics of the entire population based on that small group, and your first message quoting it used data from this survey to justify a conclusion about HIV prevalence rate among MSM in Bangkok in general, not simply in sauna frequenters. I don't find that conclusion believable.

"Steven"

Hi Steven

I fully agree with you. Despite taking great care to avoid this confusion myself, a lot of people are easily confused. Recently their was a feature in "Spice" magazine (I believe it was Spice) where HIV prevalence in the gay population at large was reported at 28%. Have you seen it? They were interviewing DJ and other gay celebrities. The figure was quoted in the press too and that's were I got it from first, hence my mis-use of it. But now you can be sure that this is the figure you will evereywhere.

In fact, the figures for HIV prevalence in the Thai MSM community at large is difficult to tell but in the most recent studies it varies between 6% and 30%. It all depends which section of the population you are looking at. If you are interested there is a good slide in the most recent version of the van griensven study (the one from where the 28% figure comes from, www.hivnat.org/download/04.ppt)

What the van griensven study aims to show is that there could be an emerging epidemic that has been / is being ignored. By concentrating on the main entertainement venues in Bangkok the authors can show that they are hot spots from where an epidemic could spread because people are mobile and go to these areas but also go to other more mainstream areas.

That 's where the future is uncertain. If the governement does not get the message right there is a danger of overreaction and "law & order" politicians might think that a crack down on these areas will solve what they see as a problem (ofr course it would not work...). If the MSM community is in denial of a potential epidemic (like the gay western community was in the 80s, then the straight community in the late 90s) the epidemic might kick back.

It is only by acknowledging that there is an issue and that more intervention is needed that a potential epidemics could be contained. More will be done with the saunas, in partiuclar I read recently that Rainbow Sky won a grant that will allow them to visit more venues and do more information and prevention work. But there is much to do and not only in saunas.

Sorry to be so long.

Regards

~R

[Ijustwannateach]

^I think we see perfectly eye to eye, in this case. If the general prevalence were as listed, we'd see big effects by now, in terms of labour shortages, crowded hospices, a major societal disaster in the making. It could still get there, though, especially with the current blinkered government policies about sex.

The last time I went to a sauna in Bangkok they passed out free condoms automatically. I hear that the policies have changed due to government "crackdowns" and hypocrisy, and now you have to purchase them deliberately beforehand. Will they never learn?

[Papa_Lazarou]

I don't see what the point of saunas are in tropical locales. Its terribly hot outside anyway, and ok, I know its a different type of heat in a sauna, but still, these contraptions are best left to chilly Scandinavian countries where they make a lot more common sense.

[PeaceBlondie]

The two gay saunas in Thailand that I've gone to, were far more than a steam room. Big swimming pool, restaurant, showers, and air conditioned hallways connecting to cool, dry, private rooms where you could meet and do what men can do together. I have never even heard of men requested unprotected sex in Thailand. It happens, but nobody asks, "Do you want to do this bareback?" Of course not.

I've seen guys who use condoms for oral sex, or who just do mutual chuck wow. This is the decade when even promiscuous sex takes precautions.

When you're talking about HIV rates varying from 6% to 30%, you're all over the map, and surely not measuring the same thing.

Babylon in Bangkok was still giving out condoms in April or May; the sauna in Chiang Mai never has given them out, so far as I know.

[Papa_Lazarou]

'chuck wow'?

Is that Thai lingo.

[TopChinese]

Papa.. have you been to a gay sauna in Thailand? The ones I've experienced in this country tend to be more of a resort setting, complete with pools, massage, outdoor bars and restaurants. In fact, I'm looking forward to having my G&T this weekend while erasing my tanline by the pool at one sauna this weekend. Or heading to the gym for a brisk workout before my 2 hr thai massage.

The facilities here are altogether different from some of the more dismal shackled dumpsters in the US or Europe where freezing men cuddle up to conserve body heat.

[Papa_Lazarou]

Papa.. have you been to a gay sauna in Thailand?

No, not as such.

I heard a story......this is a pretty mad story, so don't read on if you've got something better to do.....but it was about this guy who was in the cold pool and then got out and went into the hot sauna, and his cold testicles dropped between the wooden slats, then as the heat rose, they swelled up, then when he went to stand up, they were wrenched off.

I don't know whether thats true or not, but theoretically it sounds possible, especially if you are a bit older, because as you get older your bits do tend to dangle. Bruce Willis had this problem and had a scrotal tuck in order to get them cantilivered up a bit.

...as I said, a bit of a mad story, but you were duly warned in advance, so pray don't bust my balls.

Edited August 11, 2006 by Papa_Lazarou

[TopChinese]

You mean this story? You'll be pleased to know at the current temperatures in Bangkok, your testicles will be too nice and warm to fall into any crevices found in a sauna.

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http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1937986.html

Deckchair trapped testicles

A Croatian man got a nasty surprise when he tried to get out of his deck chair and found his testicles had got stuck.

Mario Visnjic had gone swimming naked in the sea at the Valalta beach in western Croatia, reports 24sata.

His testicles had shrunk while in the cool sea and slipped through the wooden slats when he sat back down on his wooden deckchair.

But as he lay in the sun they expanded back to normal size and got stuck between the slats.

He was eventually freed after he called beach maintenance services on his mobile phone and they sent a member of staff to cut the deck chair in half.

[Redford]

When you're talking about HIV rates varying from 6% to 30%, you're all over the map, and surely not measuring the same thing.

Babylon in Bangkok was still giving out condoms in April or May; the sauna in Chiang Mai never has given them out, so far as I know.

Different studies measured different things. This is why I was providing a link to the study where you could see the details for each venue in a powerpoint presentation.

If you don't have powerpoint and want to see a shorter version you can find it here

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/m..._cid=mm5531a2_e

That the sauna you visited in Chiang Mai did not provide comdoms is interesting and shows that prevention is not yet obvious for all. I paste below the figures that summarises most of the data from the above study.

Prevalence means the number of people who tested HIV+ in the population tested (2,049 Thai men enrolled from 106 venues)

Regards

~R