Islamic State 'kills US hostage'

[slipperylobster]

It's shame, it appears no matter whether they are in their own countries in the Middle East or countries around the world including Thailand, they appear to always want to take over, form their own country then expand. They call everyone infidel's and have no problem killing anyone who is not of their faith. I hate to generalize, but sooner or later a major confrontation will have to take place. It may be time to take them on now rather than later. If you follow the history of the Islamic state, they do this every couple of centuries until other people decide enough is enough.

I thought this was an anti American rant until I reached the word "infidel's" I don't want to generalize either, but if we had stayed out of their countries we wound't be having these problems. when you go around the world bombing people, you have to expect a little payback.

If it makes you feel better, we have killed a lot more terrorist's, rebels, enemy combatants, and civilians than they have killed infidels, so I guess we must be winning.

Your way would make sense save only for the fact that these people felt it appropriate to hijack several airliners half way around from their part of the world. Well, hijacking wasn't enough, so they slammed them into buildings such as the WTC and the Pentagon, while almost hitting the White house. In our country, that is called an act of war. How about yours?

Edited September 3, 2014 by slipperylobster

[GentlemanJim]

I don't quite know where to put this, but this thread is definitely top of the list. The following is a link to an extremely well written and informative article by Alastair Crooke as to the roots of ISIS and where it is envisaged it is aimed. All educated adults would do well to read this as it paints a scary picture of how ISIS has its sights firmly aimed at the house of Saud. Good history and very thought provoking. These people need stopping quick!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-aim-saudi-arabia_b_5748744.html

[arjunadawn]

It's shame, it appears no matter whether they are in their own countries in the Middle East or countries around the world including Thailand, they appear to always want to take over, form their own country then expand. They call everyone infidel's and have no problem killing anyone who is not of their faith. I hate to generalize, but sooner or later a major confrontation will have to take place. It may be time to take them on now rather than later. If you follow the history of the Islamic state, they do this every couple of centuries until other people decide enough is enough.

BRAVO! Your post should be read twice.

[arjunadawn]

It's shame, it appears no matter whether they are in their own countries in the Middle East or countries around the world including Thailand, they appear to always want to take over, form their own country then expand. They call everyone infidel's and have no problem killing anyone who is not of their faith. I hate to generalize, but sooner or later a major confrontation will have to take place. It may be time to take them on now rather than later. If you follow the history of the Islamic state, they do this every couple of centuries until other people decide enough is enough.

I thought this was an anti American rant until I reached the word "infidel's" I don't want to generalize either, but if we had stayed out of their countries we wound't be having these problems. when you go around the world bombing people, you have to expect a little payback.

If it makes you feel better, we have killed a lot more terrorist's, rebels, enemy combatants, and civilians than they have killed infidels, so I guess we must be winning.

This is fallacious; not you but the argument. This underlying justification that because the US foreign policy these things are happening. You are not the first person to say this. Indeed, many terrorists will say this when making pronouncements to the west. However, and this is consistently the case, when terrorists make their justifications to other muslims for their acts they do not cite the same provocations. This hardly ever happens. Invariably, jihadists, when speaking about their actions choose to reinforce the rightness of their actions by citing Hadith, Sura, or other exegesis. Thus the paradoxical information- "Just listen to what the terrorists tell us are the reasons for their actions" and folks can walk away with a valid point of view, like yourself. But "Just listen to what the terrorists tell other muslims for the justification for their actions" and you will see an entirely different, highly developed and rationally ordered reason for this actions.

I spent my life serving the American government and reach a point where I am also disgusted. I am not opposing your point because of some inherent ethnocentrism; I see your point. It is just not right, or not complete, how about saying that? There really is more to what is going on. Most of the causes for our current Islamic expansion problem can be traced to two different things, that briefly converged in Afghanistan in the 80s: The Saudi Wahhabi supremacy virus that began spreading in earnest about 100 years ago, and the US aid to fighters in Afghan (to fight Russia, not usa). These events married ideology with arms for the first time in a transnational stage. The result was that the Islamists who now returned from madrases in that region of the world, and elsewhere, now had combat experience, and the will to deliver ideology at the point of the gun. With the collapse of the bipolar world of Russia/USA, the genie was fully out of the bottle.

Did USA make matters worse? Cause this or that? Maybe. Sure, the USA likely chose poor policies, but they most definitely did not create what you suggest. The same phenomena you say in the world today has been seen numerous times, in many lands, over 1500 years. History provides us numerous identical examples that nothing is new today. (And yes, that was clever the way you sideswiped the US; nice).

[arjunadawn]

It's shame, it appears no matter whether they are in their own countries in the Middle East or countries around the world including Thailand, they appear to always want to take over, form their own country then expand. They call everyone infidel's and have no problem killing anyone who is not of their faith. I hate to generalize, but sooner or later a major confrontation will have to take place. It may be time to take them on now rather than later. If you follow the history of the Islamic state, they do this every couple of centuries until other people decide enough is enough.

Just who are the "They" we talking about now? If you are talking about Muslims they will soon be the largest religious group in the world, and if not already, they will be your neighbors soon.

Yes, I think you are correct; I think he means muslims.

But your point, if "they" means muslims, is... roll over and make nice now because soon...?

Or, take note of what orientalsf implies and devise ways to deal with this rising menace before its too late?

Please, just clarify for me. Thanks.

[arjunadawn]

Maybe its time to send these muslims back to their countries of origin, As most have not assimilated , why should so many suffer to please so few.

Only the far right has declared such intention.

Everybody else is running for cover and the feminists are busy ordering burqas .

..btw...did you hear the latest?

Islam was the first women's liberation movement.

I kid you not.

In regard to your point I would like to add something further. Many people do not realize that there is an overwhelming historical revision campaign afoot for quite a while that reassigns achievements to Islam and rewrites history.

Many people know already that Islamic query penetrates into the Judaeochristian tradition to inform us, retrospectively, that various prophets were already Islam, etc. However, I recently researched a highly developed scholarly argument that various Buddhist texts wherein the Buddha suggested that another Buddha would follow him, one who was much greater a man, and far more righteous then he, and when that Buddha comes, you should cast aside your everything and serve that Buddha- and that the Islamic prophet was the fulfillment of that prophecy, and Mohammed is the great Buddha.

http://www.islamawareness.net/Buddhism/buddhist.html

http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/muhammad_prophesised/buddhists.htm

In christian fundamentalism there is a similar example: Christians have been known to respond to dinosaur bones of immense age by saying the devil went back in time to place them there so Christians would doubt the word of god. Case closed. Book closed. No further comment. Islam revises the past everywhere it goes; it destroys structures, histories, arts, antiquities, and the core identity of peoples it has overwhelmed.

What we see taking place with this victim, and others, is sadly being reproduced in great magnitude every single day. When a previoous poster mentioned collateral damage he was more correct than he realized; all of these humans, who die for Allah, are collateral damage. All believers who die for Islam are martyrs.

[Jingthing]

I read in a newspaper that Mr Obama said "our thoughts and prayers are with the victim and his family".

Yes, this is horrible.

Yes, I think we should do something.

But OUTPRAYING the muslim fundamentalists??? Only an American could speak such non sense.

That's kind of off topic, but an "out" atheist can't get elected to major public office in the USA. But there is no requirement to be a fundamentalist either! So when Bush suggested "God" was talking to him about policy that attracted lots of justified criticism. Presidents referencing "God" in their speeches always assumed to be a Christian God is part of the American culture. Like it or not.

[arjunadawn]

Any death is tragic...well almost any (nobody grieves Bin Laden for example), however in a very real sense, this is simply collateral damage.

To quote from the article, "This second execution video from IS is significant, even though it was largely expected and dreaded. ". Expected and dreaded. In response to further airstrikes. The US could have prevented it in theory by stopping the airstrikes, but of course couldn't in reality because they have to do what they feel they have to do.

It's the same thing as civilians in Gaza being considered collateral damage because the IDF knew some will die but did what it felt it had to do regardless.

When the Brit gets executed, it will also be collateral damage, and I am so sorry for that.

You calling the beheading / murder of a non combatant collateral damage is laughable. Your clumsy attempts in comparing this to the IDF defending against islamists who use their own as human shields is beneath contempt.

Preventable murder. If the US stopped the airstrikes, the man would have been saved, at least long enough for a rescue mission perhaps. The US did what it felt it had to do, knowing the poor chap would die. It's exactly the same as the IDF doing what it feels it has to do, knowing an innocent (or in their case many innocents) will die. The Gazan civilian (in your words non-combatants) deaths are labelled collateral damage....this chap is too.

Not clumsy at all.

Your support of so-called collateral damage when it is Muslims dying is beneath contempt.

The bizarre twists of logic that irrational demonizers of Israel are willing to indulge in boggle the mind!

If it were as easy as the US stopping the bombs on... what, ISIS? the journalist in this instance would have been saved? How preposterous. Even if we assume for a moment that was true, and policy changed to... appease terrorists, what would be left of the western world's ability to declare any defense of its people? (I know, their credibility is already serious damaged; I concede this point).

But more precisely (excluding the poster as an example) what of the man who looks upon this situation and declares "If we give them what they want, they'll go away." Will they go away? Will it end? Do we allow it to end with a massive terrorist proxy state consuming the world? Do we bury our head in our hands, close our eyes, and hope it will go away? Remember, the days of considering what is happening in the world in isolated enclaves has passed; we get it now. Our leaders remain reluctant, but we know now what is happening. They will not go away!

"Give [me] what I want and will go away" is an invitation to evil.

[nidieunimaitre]

I read in a newspaper that Mr Obama said "our thoughts and prayers are with the victim and his family".

Yes, this is horrible.

Yes, I think we should do something.

But OUTPRAYING the muslim fundamentalists??? Only an American could speak such non sense.

That's kind of off topic, but an "out" atheist can't get elected to major public office in the USA. But there is no requirement to be a fundamentalist either! So when Bush suggested "God" was talking to him about policy that attracted lots of justified criticism. Presidents referencing "God" in their speeches always assumed to be a Christian God is part of the American culture. Like it or not.

I don't like it.

Also I don't like the emoticon you use.

For the rest, I fully agree with your post.

Except for the "kind of off topic" comment.

I am convinced that those in power in the US don't care about terrorism, if they did, how could they have supported Pinochet, Bin Laden,, and others?

All that matters is

1/ OIL and 2/ our GOD is better than your god. (I may have 1 and 2 in the wrong order).

[toooa]

There is an effective substance that can deter these extremists, it is pork, and it will deny any Muslim extremist the paradise they seek after death.

Interested...? read on

[nidieunimaitre]

There is an effective substance that can deter these extremists, it is pork, and it will deny any Muslim extremist the paradise they seek after death.

Interested...? read on

Get real.

People invent gods.

People invent rules made by their gods.

People outsmarten their gods by finding ways around these holy rules when it suits them.

In all religions.

It is called "hypocrisy".

[nidieunimaitre]

There is an effective substance that can deter these extremists, it is pork, and it will deny any Muslim extremist the paradise they seek after death.

Interested...? read on

I admit.

I was stupid enough to click on your link.

I assume the website is just another red neck tea party KKK nutters alias.

Because if I would assume that the website is really linked to the American army, I would have no choice as to join the jihad, for humanity's sake.

Amen.

[jucel]

I've seen about 50 ISIS videos in the last few months & these two with the Americans are nothing like the others. I can't understand why they would censor them as they have no regard for human life!

Is this the normal behaviour of grieving siblings??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmeDwsguvkA

[Jingthing]

I've seen about 50 ISIS videos in the last few months & these two with the Americans are nothing like the others. I can't understand why they would censor them as they have no regard for human life!

Is this the normal behaviour of grieving siblings??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmeDwsguvkA

Tin foil hat alert!

[simple1]

I don't quite know where to put this, but this thread is definitely top of the list. The following is a link to an extremely well written and informative article by Alastair Crooke as to the roots of ISIS and where it is envisaged it is aimed. All educated adults would do well to read this as it paints a scary picture of how ISIS has its sights firmly aimed at the house of Saud. Good history and very thought provoking. These people need stopping quick!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-aim-saudi-arabia_b_5748744.html

Agree, an excellent analysis.

[MJP]

I don't quite know where to put this, but this thread is definitely top of the list. The following is a link to an extremely well written and informative article by Alastair Crooke as to the roots of ISIS and where it is envisaged it is aimed. All educated adults would do well to read this as it paints a scary picture of how ISIS has its sights firmly aimed at the house of Saud. Good history and very thought provoking. These people need stopping quick!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-aim-saudi-arabia_b_5748744.html

Agree, an excellent analysis.

Yup. Behind all the carnage, death and suffering in the name of Allah will be a handful of greedy bu$$ers only after great riches. Nothing to do with ideology, religion etc. Of course their devout followers will never appreciate this.

[ratcatcher]

In words of Kenny Everett

"Round em up, put them in a field and bomb the b*stards"

I think the time for political and "diplomatic" circle jerking is over, they need to go in a get Jihadi "John" and his mates, bring them back to the UK and hang them off the walls of the tower of London or some other suitable public place.

I have a firm belief there is a solution to this ever escalating problem.

Large thermonuclear weapons...turn the entire region into green glass.

Wait a while till the radiation gets to a low level...go in & divvie up the oil.

Be under no illusion, these radical jihadists would happily flatten the United States aka The Great Satan as well as their allies,if they had the means, and i believe that is their eventual goal.. This is a holy war as far as they are concerned and platitudes from Obama and Cameron etc are falling on deaf ears.

Edited September 3, 2014 by ratcatcher

[jucel]

I've seen about 50 ISIS videos in the last few months & these two with the Americans are nothing like the others. I can't understand why they would censor them as they have no regard for human life!

Is this the normal behaviour of grieving siblings??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmeDwsguvkA

Tin foil hat alert!

I feel sorry for people like you who swallow up every piece of mainstream media!

[Jingthing]

I feel sorry for people like you who swallow up every piece of mainstream media!

It's not a black and white thing, dude.

There is a wide range between believing everything in mainstream media and uncritically embracing every idiotic and insane conspiracy theory they see on the internet (an infinite source of such GARBAGE).

Spare your fake sympathy. Please.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

Any death is tragic...well almost any (nobody grieves Bin Laden for example), however in a very real sense, this is simply collateral damage.

To quote from the article, "This second execution video from IS is significant, even though it was largely expected and dreaded. ". Expected and dreaded. In response to further airstrikes. The US could have prevented it in theory by stopping the airstrikes, but of course couldn't in reality because they have to do what they feel they have to do.

It's the same thing as civilians in Gaza being considered collateral damage because the IDF knew some will die but did what it felt it had to do regardless.

When the Brit gets executed, it will also be collateral damage, and I am so sorry for that.

You calling the beheading / murder of a non combatant collateral damage is laughable. Your clumsy attempts in comparing this to the IDF defending against islamists who use their own as human shields is beneath contempt.

Preventable murder. If the US stopped the airstrikes, the man would have been saved, at least long enough for a rescue mission perhaps. The US did what it felt it had to do, knowing the poor chap would die. It's exactly the same as the IDF doing what it feels it has to do, knowing an innocent (or in their case many innocents) will die. The Gazan civilian (in your words non-combatants) deaths are labelled collateral damage....this chap is too.

Not clumsy at all.

Your support of so-called collateral damage when it is Muslims dying is beneath contempt.

The bizarre twists of logic that irrational demonizers of Israel are willing to indulge in boggle the mind!

What part of my post demonised Israel? Try and remain be rational.

[jucel]

I feel sorry for people like you who swallow up every piece of mainstream media!

It's not a black and white thing, dude.

There is a wide range between believing everything in mainstream media and uncritically embracing every idiotic and insane conspiracy theory they see on the internet (an infinite source of such GARBAGE).

Spare your fake sympathy. Please.

I'm not embracing any "idiotic" conspiracy theory. All I said was these videos are nothing like any other (by ISIS) and the family's response is not normal!

Am I not allowed to ask these pertinent questions without the standard tin foil reply?

[Mosha]

I don't quite know where to put this, but this thread is definitely top of the list. The following is a link to an extremely well written and informative article by Alastair Crooke as to the roots of ISIS and where it is envisaged it is aimed. All educated adults would do well to read this as it paints a scary picture of how ISIS has its sights firmly aimed at the house of Saud. Good history and very thought provoking. These people need stopping quick!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-aim-saudi-arabia_b_5748744.html

Getting involved with the Saudis v Saddam got us where we are now..

[I Like Thai]

Maybe its time to send these muslims back to their countries of origin, As most have not assimilated , why should so many suffer to please so few.

Would you say the same about the Farangs who haven't assimilated in Thailand

[Jingthing]

Maybe its time to send these muslims back to their countries of origin, As most have not assimilated , why should so many suffer to please so few.

Would you say the same about the Farangs who haven't assimilated in Thailand

I would about the TINY PERCENTAGE that are actually CITIZENS here.

[Soutpeel]

I don't quite know where to put this, but this thread is definitely top of the list. The following is a link to an extremely well written and informative article by Alastair Crooke as to the roots of ISIS and where it is envisaged it is aimed. All educated adults would do well to read this as it paints a scary picture of how ISIS has its sights firmly aimed at the house of Saud. Good history and very thought provoking. These people need stopping quick!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-aim-saudi-arabia_b_5748744.html

Getting involved with the Saudis v Saddam got us where we are now..

oh yeah, and one suspects King Abdullah is currently bricking himself that Mecca next stop for the ISIS road show

[Seastallion]

It's shame, it appears no matter whether they are in their own countries in the Middle East or countries around the world including Thailand, they appear to always want to take over, form their own country then expand. They call everyone infidel's and have no problem killing anyone who is not of their faith. I hate to generalize, but sooner or later a major confrontation will have to take place. It may be time to take them on now rather than later. If you follow the history of the Islamic state, they do this every couple of centuries until other people decide enough is enough.

I thought this was an anti American rant until I reached the word "infidel's" I don't want to generalize either, but if we had stayed out of their countries we wound't be having these problems. when you go around the world bombing people, you have to expect a little payback.

If it makes you feel better, we have killed a lot more terrorist's, rebels, enemy combatants, and civilians than they have killed infidels, so I guess we must be winning.

This is fallacious; not you but the argument. This underlying justification that because the US foreign policy these things are happening. You are not the first person to say this. Indeed, many terrorists will say this when making pronouncements to the west. However, and this is consistently the case, when terrorists make their justifications to other muslims for their acts they do not cite the same provocations. This hardly ever happens. Invariably, jihadists, when speaking about their actions choose to reinforce the rightness of their actions by citing Hadith, Sura, or other exegesis. Thus the paradoxical information- "Just listen to what the terrorists tell us are the reasons for their actions" and folks can walk away with a valid point of view, like yourself. But "Just listen to what the terrorists tell other muslims for the justification for their actions" and you will see an entirely different, highly developed and rationally ordered reason for this actions.

I spent my life serving the American government and reach a point where I am also disgusted. I am not opposing your point because of some inherent ethnocentrism; I see your point. It is just not right, or not complete, how about saying that? There really is more to what is going on. Most of the causes for our current Islamic expansion problem can be traced to two different things, that briefly converged in Afghanistan in the 80s: The Saudi Wahhabi supremacy virus that began spreading in earnest about 100 years ago, and the US aid to fighters in Afghan (to fight Russia, not usa). These events married ideology with arms for the first time in a transnational stage. The result was that the Islamists who now returned from madrases in that region of the world, and elsewhere, now had combat experience, and the will to deliver ideology at the point of the gun. With the collapse of the bipolar world of Russia/USA, the genie was fully out of the bottle.

Did USA make matters worse? Cause this or that? Maybe. Sure, the USA likely chose poor policies, but they most definitely did not create what you suggest. The same phenomena you say in the world today has been seen numerous times, in many lands, over 1500 years. History provides us numerous identical examples that nothing is new today. (And yes, that was clever the way you sideswiped the US; nice).

The fallacy lies within your post, not the one you accuse of being fallacious.

You mention the Saudi Wahaabi supremacy virus as an argument against johna's opinion (of American meddling being the/a root of today's problems) yet the Saud Wahaabist movement was nurtured by the US around 80-90 years ago. Without the US's support, it is arguable that Wahaabism would today be a word known only to historians, anthropologists and those that study minor cults.

That's your first fallacy.

You then go on to assert, as you are wont to do, this and that about Islam and Muslims, and Islamists as if your opinion is fact. Your preaching begs the question.

You also use contradictory language. "Consistently" and "invariably" do not agree with "hardly ever". Which is it, or is it neither?

You are also being disingenuous with your "Maybe (America made things worse). Your next sentence actually makes excuses for it, "..likely chose poor policies.." Ha, did they ever!?

If you are going to continue with preaching your "firm convictions", I suggest you should provide the proof or else declare that your beliefs are unsubstantiated.

[arjunadawn]

I feel sorry for people like you who swallow up every piece of mainstream media!

It's not a black and white thing, dude.

There is a wide range between believing everything in mainstream media and uncritically embracing every idiotic and insane conspiracy theory they see on the internet (an infinite source of such GARBAGE).

Spare your fake sympathy. Please.

I'm not embracing any "idiotic" conspiracy theory. All I said was these videos are nothing like any other (by ISIS) and the family's response is not normal!

Am I not allowed to ask these pertinent questions without the standard tin foil reply?

I have not yet read the posts that follow this above post but I do wish to comment having just finished watching this video multiple times. First, I previously had gut reactions to the Foley video that I could not explain. I mean, I have seen horrible beheading videos multiple times and have seen beheadings multiple times (not the act, just the results). Something did not seem correct about the Foley video. I was prompted to recall a favorite and brilliant author, Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell's book "Blink" really is a must read for understanding that innate part of us that informs us something is just not quite right, even though we cannot articulate exactly what it is. After rationalizing and going back and forth I concluded the Foley video was legitimate and the reason they paused at the most important part was because of stupidity, and bungling. Because of his bald head (I feel dirty even describing this) they could not maintain an anchor and releasing the full clip would show stupidity. I could not understand why jihadists would have shaved their heads in the first place.

Now this video is released with the same slick packaging and Seal of muhammad. They are clearly allowing hair to grow back, but still cutting away at the defining part of the act. The fact is the singular goal of terrorists is to terrorize a population in order to extract concessions, force the population to lose faith in their governments ability to protect them, and muster esprit de corps amongst themselves. Why do they continue to sterilize the product? It is a valid question and asking it does not indicate ignorance or sympathy for anything.

And both of you guys above are correct, IMO. It is not black and white and yes, many people do simply fall in line to read only tin foil hat outlets, or corporate media mouthspeak. Yes, its harder to be discerning these days. Since I have the sense that both of you are on the same team, I prefer you remain that way. There are many people to educate about this and you have lots of stuff to share.

[arjunadawn]

Maybe its time to send these muslims back to their countries of origin, As most have not assimilated , why should so many suffer to please so few.

Would you say the same about the Farangs who haven't assimilated in Thailand

I must assume you are unfamiliar with the details of the muslims (generally) to which he refers (behavior as newly assimilated peoples in numerous countries). Perhaps the topic of the OP attracted you because it such an ugly thing that happened and you wanted to read some others' thoughts, or comment like everyone else. I hope in the time since you posted this and now you have come to understand the difference between foreigners visiting a country, remaining as visitors (guests) only, following the (opposed to assigning themselves special laws, or breaking host nation laws outright) laws, not demanding special concessions (opposed to sharia, halal, etc.) and rights, and minding their own political business; this is hardly the same as the vast islands of Islamic separatism widely disseminated throughout the western world as no-go areas for non muslims. These areas are actually increasingly becoming forward operating bases for hija jihad- migration jihad!

I hope others have pointed out to you that farang have no collective will to kill the population of any country they "visit" (hija) nor do they have a proscribed agenda/format for carrying out such a calculated pogrom (koran, hadith, jihad). In fact, taking your observation globally I cannot find a single example that can be made in line with your post. There simply is no comparison with any single group of people and those hello-bent on world domination and the annihilation of all that has been produced in the entire western world.

[Mosha]

Maybe its time to send these muslims back to their countries of origin, As most have not assimilated , why should so many suffer to please so few.

Would you say the same about the Farangs who haven't assimilated in Thailand

How many have Thai PR? If they have the right to a passport to a country the least they should do is learn the lingo. Go to say a hospital in Dewsbury and see how many teens early twenties accompany their mum to translate. I respect Thai culture, I don't expect my wife to follow my ways cook beef etc. If I went back I'd hope she could adjust. These hill tribe Pakistanis want us to adapt to them. In Star Trek phraseology. They are the Borg

[arjunadawn]

I thought this was an anti American rant until I reached the word "infidel's" I don't want to generalize either, but if we had stayed out of their countries we wound't be having these problems. when you go around the world bombing people, you have to expect a little payback.

If it makes you feel better, we have killed a lot more terrorist's, rebels, enemy combatants, and civilians than they have killed infidels, so I guess we must be winning.

This is fallacious; not you but the argument. This underlying justification that because the US foreign policy these things are happening. You are not the first person to say this. Indeed, many terrorists will say this when making pronouncements to the west. However, and this is consistently the case, when terrorists make their justifications to other muslims for their acts they do not cite the same provocations. This hardly ever happens. Invariably, jihadists, when speaking about their actions choose to reinforce the rightness of their actions by citing Hadith, Sura, or other exegesis. Thus the paradoxical information- "Just listen to what the terrorists tell us are the reasons for their actions" and folks can walk away with a valid point of view, like yourself. But "Just listen to what the terrorists tell other muslims for the justification for their actions" and you will see an entirely different, highly developed and rationally ordered reason for this actions.

I spent my life serving the American government and reach a point where I am also disgusted. I am not opposing your point because of some inherent ethnocentrism; I see your point. It is just not right, or not complete, how about saying that? There really is more to what is going on. Most of the causes for our current Islamic expansion problem can be traced to two different things, that briefly converged in Afghanistan in the 80s: The Saudi Wahhabi supremacy virus that began spreading in earnest about 100 years ago, and the US aid to fighters in Afghan (to fight Russia, not usa). These events married ideology with arms for the first time in a transnational stage. The result was that the Islamists who now returned from madrases in that region of the world, and elsewhere, now had combat experience, and the will to deliver ideology at the point of the gun. With the collapse of the bipolar world of Russia/USA, the genie was fully out of the bottle.

Did USA make matters worse? Cause this or that? Maybe. Sure, the USA likely chose poor policies, but they most definitely did not create what you suggest. The same phenomena you say in the world today has been seen numerous times, in many lands, over 1500 years. History provides us numerous identical examples that nothing is new today. (And yes, that was clever the way you sideswiped the US; nice).

The fallacy lies within your post, not the one you accuse of being fallacious.

You mention the Saudi Wahaabi supremacy virus as an argument against johna's opinion (of American meddling being the/a root of today's problems) yet the Saud Wahaabist movement was nurtured by the US around 80-90 years ago. Without the US's support, it is arguable that Wahaabism would today be a word known only to historians, anthropologists and those that study minor cults.

That's your first fallacy.

You then go on to assert, as you are wont to do, this and that about Islam and Muslims, and Islamists as if your opinion is fact. Your preaching begs the question.

You also use contradictory language. "Consistently" and "invariably" do not agree with "hardly ever". Which is it, or is it neither?

You are also being disingenuous with your "Maybe (America made things worse). Your next sentence actually makes excuses for it, "..likely chose poor policies.." Ha, did they ever!?

If you are going to continue with preaching your "firm convictions", I suggest you should provide the proof or else declare that your beliefs are unsubstantiated.

Your eagerness to injure me causes you to nearly trip over yourself. Brother, you need to know something: I don't need to be right. I have no problem with being wrong. There are a lot of really smart people here on TV and I learn from a bunch of them. In fact, I learn more from the people who differ with me. Don't work so hard to repudiate my points. You can if you wish but your time could be better spent developing original thought.

I did not say USA was innocent. I concede they have had policies, and do, that contribute to the issues we face (I personally feel the USA and West are significantly responsible for this entire problem, but not in the way the poster thought). I felt it was important to distinguish the fact that jihadis say something different, in most cases, to other muslims regarding their actions. I did make this point. This is correct.

I just scanned the rest of your post and realize how ugly it is toward me. I cant imagine how my posts, fairly neutral to any individual, could move across time and space, reproduce on your keyboard, be scanned and processed in your mind, and generate such visceral emotional protest. How odd?

My firm convictions do not require a shred or proof. When I make assertions without stating my opinion and conviction, I usually do cite my sources if I feel it can contribute to a point I make. Often, if a topic is so easily perused on line I wont cite it as a reasonable man should accept a reasonable burden for his own education and inform-ation.

IMO, I am confident that the body of my posts, juxtaposed with yours, demonstrate a not nice approach from you in the view of my peers. I just think that; no citation needed. Therefore, I will continue to labor to humor you when I can, not respond when abusive, but otherwise minimize you to the status you request with your rage.