inutil Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) You forget that a large number of your English voted in the current government transam. We know its a mess too....and given the chance to leave this mess behind its an easy choice. Smokie does have a point.Thing is right now it looks like frying pan into the fire because of zero advanced planning. That is why we will set a framework for independence after a YES vote.We are not planning to start building a wall on Friday morning. Surely you don't think we are as stupid as the Westminster government thought we were.........? It's not you building the wall I'm worried about. I think Westminster could get very nasty over this.There needed to be agreements in place for painless transition before the vote. An interesting question then... what do you feel about the devo max 'vow'? What on earth are Scottish people voting for exactly? On the one hand, no possible legislative information or certainty. And on the other hand, no possible legislative information or certainty ??? What to do, what to do? A yes vote is a leap of faith, a no vote is a leap of faith. ??? Apparently, as argued by all three main parties, there is in fact no status quo option. Not that thats a bad thing, i always felt they were a bit... English. Asking them to come sing a song might just be as bonkers as asking David Beckham to emotionally appeal to scottish Union, speaking of the pride he felt captaining his country. Edited September 16, 2014 by inutil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 You forget that a large number of your English voted in the current government transam. We know its a mess too....and given the chance to leave this mess behind its an easy choice. Some would say it's easy to leave a mess and jump into a disaster. Its a chance we are willing to take.....if that is what you call it up to you. I prefer to call it a wonderful opportunity for Scotland. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajyindee Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I don't know why the English are bleating. When the referendum was being thrashed out, Salmond was quite happy to go with Devo Max. It was Cameron who decided to impose the "all or nothing" format. Everything that is happening now is of his own making. Som nam na, and all that. As is normal though, the English have got to find a scapegoat for their woes .... if it's not the French and Germans, it's the Romanians. If it's not the Arabs, it's the Pakkies. If it's not the Irish, it's the Scots. If it's not the Spaniards, it's the Greeks. If it's not the Argentinians, it's the Uruguayans ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Smokie. Re 'English debt' No, the money markets see 10% of it as Scotland's debt that is that, 132 billion I think, or 5 billion a year interest. Default on this and Scotland will be locked out of capital markets. it's important because as each bond matures it needs to be replaced by new borrowings. Oil revenue falls well short and right from day one there is a budget shortfall. Pretty sure of all this, if you read today's newspapers you will see it is the Yank line too. Deutsche bank last week warned of similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I don't know why the English are bleating. When the referendum was being thrashed out, Salmond was quite happy to go with Devo Max. It was Cameron who decided to impose the "all or nothing" format. Everything that is happening now is of his own making. Som nam na, and all that. As is normal though, the English have got to find a scapegoat for their woes .... if it's not the French and Germans, it's the Romanians. If it's not the Arabs, it's the Pakkies. If it's not the Irish, it's the Scots. If it's not the Spaniards, it's the Greeks. If it's not the Argentinians, it's the Uruguayans ... Thank you for your insightful posting. Does this matter have much if anything at all to do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Smokie. Re 'English debt' No, the money markets see 10% of it as Scotland's debt that is that, 132 billion I think, or 5 billion a year interest. Default on this and Scotland will be locked out of capital markets. it's important because as each bond matures it needs to be replaced by new borrowings. Oil revenue falls well short and right from day one there is a budget shortfall. Pretty sure of all this, if you read today's newspapers you will see it is the Yank line too. Deutsche bank last week warned of similar. As Salmond has said we will peg to the pound and pay our share..... No problem there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Oh and none of you chose to comment on my clip showing Mark Carney stating the Bank of England will back the Scottish pound. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Oh and none of you chose to comment on my clip showing Mark Carney stating the Bank of England will back the Scottish pound. I did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Oh and none of you chose to comment on my clip showing Mark Carney stating the Bank of England will back the Scottish pound. In that he states it quite clearly....even saying he knows many are hanging on his comments....well he said it....so do you believe him or the Tory government? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajyindee Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I don't know why the English are bleating. When the referendum was being thrashed out, Salmond was quite happy to go with Devo Max. It was Cameron who decided to impose the "all or nothing" format. Everything that is happening now is of his own making. Som nam na, and all that. As is normal though, the English have got to find a scapegoat for their woes .... if it's not the French and Germans, it's the Romanians. If it's not the Arabs, it's the Pakkies. If it's not the Irish, it's the Scots. If it's not the Spaniards, it's the Greeks. If it's not the Argentinians, it's the Uruguayans ... Thank you for your insightful posting. Does this matter have much if anything at all to do you? Of course it does ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I don't know why the English are bleating. When the referendum was being thrashed out, Salmond was quite happy to go with Devo Max. It was Cameron who decided to impose the "all or nothing" format. Everything that is happening now is of his own making. Som nam na, and all that. As is normal though, the English have got to find a scapegoat for their woes .... if it's not the French and Germans, it's the Romanians. If it's not the Arabs, it's the Pakkies. If it's not the Irish, it's the Scots. If it's not the Spaniards, it's the Greeks. If it's not the Argentinians, it's the Uruguayans ... Thank you for your insightful posting. Does this matter have much if anything at all to do you? Of course it does ... Well how about posting something other than a lot of insulting and racist drivel ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I don't know why the English are bleating. When the referendum was being thrashed out, Salmond was quite happy to go with Devo Max. It was Cameron who decided to impose the "all or nothing" format. Everything that is happening now is of his own making. Som nam na, and all that. As is normal though, the English have got to find a scapegoat for their woes .... if it's not the French and Germans, it's the Romanians. If it's not the Arabs, it's the Pakkies. If it's not the Irish, it's the Scots. If it's not the Spaniards, it's the Greeks. If it's not the Argentinians, it's the Uruguayans ... Thank you for your insightful posting. Does this matter have much if anything at all to do you? Of course it does ... Well how about posting something other than a lot of insulting and racist drivel ! Give over man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Smokie. Re 'English debt' No, the money markets see 10% of it as Scotland's debt that is that, 132 billion I think, or 5 billion a year interest. Default on this and Scotland will be locked out of capital markets. it's important because as each bond matures it needs to be replaced by new borrowings. Oil revenue falls well short and right from day one there is a budget shortfall. Pretty sure of all this, if you read today's newspapers you will see it is the Yank line too. Deutsche bank last week warned of similar. As Salmond has said we will peg to the pound and pay our share..... No problem there. I thought he said he wanted currency union, and will pay his share ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Smokie. Re 'English debt' No, the money markets see 10% of it as Scotland's debt that is that, 132 billion I think, or 5 billion a year interest. Default on this and Scotland will be locked out of capital markets. it's important because as each bond matures it needs to be replaced by new borrowings. Oil revenue falls well short and right from day one there is a budget shortfall. Pretty sure of all this, if you read today's newspapers you will see it is the Yank line too. Deutsche bank last week warned of similar. I just did some googling -- http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/ and it confirms your figures (approx) Where did you get the statement about 10% being down to Scotland ? Not that it's an unreasonable figure given the population ratios,,, The Gross Domestic Product of Scotland in 2013 was $248.5 billion (wikipedia is in US$ so it's about = £153) UK's was about 5.5% of UK's GDP - so we can extrapolate that Scotland's ability to pay would be about 5.5% of Scottish GDP of £153billion -- approx £8.4billion -- Well over the £5billion you correctly calcuated Scotland will have a massive surplus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Smokie. Re 'English debt' No, the money markets see 10% of it as Scotland's debt that is that, 132 billion I think, or 5 billion a year interest. Default on this and Scotland will be locked out of capital markets. it's important because as each bond matures it needs to be replaced by new borrowings. Oil revenue falls well short and right from day one there is a budget shortfall. Pretty sure of all this, if you read today's newspapers you will see it is the Yank line too. Deutsche bank last week warned of similar. As Salmond has said we will peg to the pound and pay our share..... No problem there. I thought he said he wanted currency union, and will pay his share ! England will be discussing currency union on Friday morning! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Carney has clearly stated recently that a cvurrency union is out. That it is a political decision, and UK Govt. has stated there will b e no currency union. Sterlingisation is possible, but very much a poor option. Scotland needs its own currency. Everyone will support that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Carney has clearly stated recently that a cvurrency union is out. That it is a political decision, and UK Govt. has stated there will b e no currency union. Sterlingisation is possible, but very much a poor option. Scotland needs its own currency. Everyone will support that. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/758190-scottish-independence-yes-camp-hails-momentum/page-54#entry8394839 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Smokie. Re 'English debt' No, the money markets see 10% of it as Scotland's debt that is that, 132 billion I think, or 5 billion a year interest. Default on this and Scotland will be locked out of capital markets. it's important because as each bond matures it needs to be replaced by new borrowings. Oil revenue falls well short and right from day one there is a budget shortfall. Pretty sure of all this, if you read today's newspapers you will see it is the Yank line too. Deutsche bank last week warned of similar. I just did some googling -- http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/ and it confirms your figures (approx) Where did you get the statement about 10% being down to Scotland ? Not that it's an unreasonable figure given the population ratios,,, The Gross Domestic Product of Scotland in 2013 was $248.5 billion (wikipedia is in US$ so it's about = £153) UK's was about 5.5% of UK's GDP - so we can extrapolate that Scotland's ability to pay would be about 5.5% of Scottish GDP of £153billion -- approx £8.4billion -- Well over the £5billion you correctly calcuated Scotland will have a massive surplus Mistake in your posting. Scotland's current GDP is about 8.9 - 9.3 of UK GDP. I used about 10% as a ball park figure. It will be about 130 billion pounds in absolute terms, and rising unfortunately for all of us. It can't be sidestepped. It simply can't be spirited away, or explained away with false argument. It is an accepted figure and as I said it is really what the money markets think. that is what UK Govt will present and it is more or less unavoidable. But money what the heck nations survive and prosper, I can see minds are made up on independence on this thread, so will honestly wish you the best of luck! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Smokie. Re 'English debt' No, the money markets see 10% of it as Scotland's debt that is that, 132 billion I think, or 5 billion a year interest. Default on this and Scotland will be locked out of capital markets. it's important because as each bond matures it needs to be replaced by new borrowings. Oil revenue falls well short and right from day one there is a budget shortfall. Pretty sure of all this, if you read today's newspapers you will see it is the Yank line too. Deutsche bank last week warned of similar. I just did some googling -- http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/ and it confirms your figures (approx) Where did you get the statement about 10% being down to Scotland ? Not that it's an unreasonable figure given the population ratios,,, The Gross Domestic Product of Scotland in 2013 was $248.5 billion (wikipedia is in US$ so it's about = £153) UK's was about 5.5% of UK's GDP - so we can extrapolate that Scotland's ability to pay would be about 5.5% of Scottish GDP of £153billion -- approx £8.4billion -- Well over the £5billion you correctly calcuated Scotland will have a massive surplus Mistake in your posting. Scotland's current GDP is about 8.9 - 9.3 of UK GDP. I used about 10% as a ball park figure. It will be about 130 billion pounds in absolute terms, and rising unfortunately for all of us. It can't be sidestepped. It simply can't be spirited away, or explained away with false argument. It is an accepted figure and as I said it is really what the money markets think. that is what UK Govt will present and it is more or less unavoidable. But money what the heck nations survive and prosper, I can see minds are made up on independence on this thread, so will honestly wish you the best of luck! I was relating the cost of the national debt to the national GDP. But let's not start nit-picking over the accounts -- every country survives one way or another. This referendum is a statement by the people in Scotland - not about politics or economics 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajyindee Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Well how about posting something other than a lot of insulting and racist drivel ! Jeez, see what I mean about the bleating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
englishoak Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Put it this way, if its a yes Cameron will forever in history be known as the PM that lost the UK and somehow theres just not enough forethought gone into the what next if yes, I just dont see it being allowed by big brother if there is one.... if there was ever a time to rig a vote just enough this one is it.....and it will be easy to get away with............. but if its yes then you know UK.gov is playing it 100% honest for once... I know but ya never know... Edited September 16, 2014 by englishoak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 This is the take on debt. I think it is pretty definitive. Sorry if I was inaccurate. Indeed I think I was working on the population calculation. This is taken from the Scottish Govt's own website: The UK national debt is expected to peak at 86 per cent of UK GDP, almost £1.6 trillion in 2016/17. The national debt could be apportioned by reference to the historic contribution made to the UK’s public finances by Scotland. Using 1980 as the base year, Scotland’s historic share of the UK national debt in 2016/17 is projected to be approximately £100 billion. This is equivalent to 55 per cent of Scottish GDP. Other methods for dividing responsibility for the national debts would produce different results. For example the Fiscal Commission’s first report looked at an apportionment based on population. On this basis, Scotland’s notional share of UK debt in 2016/17 is projected to be approximately £130 billion, equivalent to approximately 75 per cent of GDP – still less than the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Smokie. Re 'English debt' No, the money markets see 10% of it as Scotland's debt that is that, 132 billion I think, or 5 billion a year interest. Default on this and Scotland will be locked out of capital markets. it's important because as each bond matures it needs to be replaced by new borrowings. Oil revenue falls well short and right from day one there is a budget shortfall. Pretty sure of all this, if you read today's newspapers you will see it is the Yank line too. Deutsche bank last week warned of similar. I just did some googling -- http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/ and it confirms your figures (approx) Where did you get the statement about 10% being down to Scotland ? Not that it's an unreasonable figure given the population ratios,,, The Gross Domestic Product of Scotland in 2013 was $248.5 billion (wikipedia is in US$ so it's about = £153) UK's was about 5.5% of UK's GDP - so we can extrapolate that Scotland's ability to pay would be about 5.5% of Scottish GDP of £153billion -- approx £8.4billion -- Well over the £5billion you correctly calcuated Scotland will have a massive surplus Mistake in your posting. Scotland's current GDP is about 8.9 - 9.3 of UK GDP. I used about 10% as a ball park figure. It will be about 130 billion pounds in absolute terms, and rising unfortunately for all of us. It can't be sidestepped. It simply can't be spirited away, or explained away with false argument. It is an accepted figure and as I said it is really what the money markets think. that is what UK Govt will present and it is more or less unavoidable. But money what the heck nations survive and prosper, I can see minds are made up on independence on this thread, so will honestly wish you the best of luck! I was relating the cost of the national debt to the national GDP. But let's not start nit-picking over the accounts -- every country survives one way or another. This referendum is a statement by the people in Scotland - not about politics or economics Agreed, but life does have its fundamental realities, 100- 150 billion big ones in this instance. And ultimately the vote is about what is from the heart, but I fear most are pledging a protest vote more than a wish to leave the union. Indeed given a genuine devo max I think a very big majority would be very happy. Anyway I hope Scotland stays, as does just about every entity outside Scotland and probably Scotland itself. But if not so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Carney has clearly stated recently that a cvurrency union is out. That it is a political decision, and UK Govt. has stated there will b e no currency union. Sterlingisation is possible, but very much a poor option. Scotland needs its own currency. Everyone will support that. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/758190-scottish-independence-yes-camp-hails-momentum/page-54#entry8394839 I clicked on the link but couldn't see a video clip. I searched google and youtube I'd like to see it, any chance of a direct link or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 This is the take on debt. I think it is pretty definitive. Sorry if I was inaccurate. Indeed I think I was working on the population calculation. This is taken from the Scottish Govt's own website: The UK national debt is expected to peak at 86 per cent of UK GDP, almost £1.6 trillion in 2016/17. The national debt could be apportioned by reference to the historic contribution made to the UK’s public finances by Scotland. Using 1980 as the base year, Scotland’s historic share of the UK national debt in 2016/17 is projected to be approximately £100 billion. This is equivalent to 55 per cent of Scottish GDP. Other methods for dividing responsibility for the national debts would produce different results. For example the Fiscal Commission’s first report looked at an apportionment based on population. On this basis, Scotland’s notional share of UK debt in 2016/17 is projected to be approximately £130 billion, equivalent to approximately 75 per cent of GDP – still less than the UK. ==================================>>> Which still leaves Scotland with a healthy surplus Whatever way you look at this, there's no way Westminster doesn't know this already and they're just bluffing about the no vote and not agreeing to sterling being used in iScotland. It's massive huffing and puffing and reminds me of the currency pantomime immediately prior to decimalisation - which effectively halved the value of sterling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Carney has clearly stated recently that a cvurrency union is out. That it is a political decision, and UK Govt. has stated there will b e no currency union. Sterlingisation is possible, but very much a poor option. Scotland needs its own currency. Everyone will support that. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/758190-scottish-independence-yes-camp-hails-momentum/page-54#entry8394839 I clicked on the link but couldn't see a video clip. I searched google and youtube I'd like to see it, any chance of a direct link or something? =================>>> Sorry -- Ask smokie - it was his link originally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJIC Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I see there was come heckling of the NO camp today on BBC,but at least it didn't go as far as this link! http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nbc-news/56057805#56057805 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Carney has clearly stated recently that a cvurrency union is out. That it is a political decision, and UK Govt. has stated there will b e no currency union. Sterlingisation is possible, but very much a poor option. Scotland needs its own currency. Everyone will support that. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/758190-scottish-independence-yes-camp-hails-momentum/page-54#entry8394839 I clicked on the link but couldn't see a video clip. I searched google and youtube I'd like to see it, any chance of a direct link or something? =================>>> Sorry -- Ask smokie - it was his link originally You need to have a Facebook account to view it....sorry I dont have the direct link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sustento Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Oh and none of you chose to comment on my clip showing Mark Carney stating the Bank of England will back the Scottish pound. It was a very short clip. Do you have a link to one that lasts a little longer so we can listen in context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Oh and none of you chose to comment on my clip showing Mark Carney stating the Bank of England will back the Scottish pound.It was a very short clip. Do you have a link to one that lasts a little longer so we can listen in context? .....I gave you the link.....some people are just never going to be happy. Anyway....we are voting YES on Thursday so you can hear the currency agreement sometime after that.....probably after Cameron/Osborne lose a vote of confidence at Westminster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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