Scottish independence: Yes camp hails 'momentum'

[mommysboy]

Under the Barnett rule, Scotland recieves 1500 quid per year per head more in spending than England. NI receives 2000 more, Wales about 700. The UK has said this will continue . But if Scotland leaves then obviously it is no longer eligible.

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another reason i say please vote yes scotland please please pretty please

if scotland votes yes for me it will be even if GBP falls even if its economically bad for england because I as an englishman want england to be independent of its hangers on scotland Wales and NI and be allowed to choose itself what government it wants not one imposed from scotland and wales and their socialist MP's

Although I am a patriotic Englishman I can not support what you write at all.

A misconception on the no side: Scotland has a balance of trade surplus, albeit a small one, and is as productive as the rest of the UK. in most respects it mirrors the rest of the UK warts and all.

The effect of a yes vote on rUK will likely be severe,as markets vent their displeasure at UK Govt.

A yes vote increases the UK public debt by about 9%, and decreases GDP by about the same (others on board say 6% appx). Not good.

With attitudes like yours is it any wonder significant numbers of Scots want out?

[smokie36]

Who do you think youre convincing though? Lets assume youre right. Lets assume that scottish oil has only 40 years left. Lets assume that the BoE gets to control the financial levers as the borrower of last resort. And lets assume that the EU application takes 5 years (and spain threaten to veto it purely on the grounds that its trying to prevent its own independence movement taking off).

Do you think that your typical scottish person is voting yes because they want their own scrooge mcduck money pit? This isnt a vote for a windfall. Its a vote fully aware that the break up of the union comes with some terrifying consequences to an independent scottish economy. And why do they know this? Because better together have been banging this drum since day 1. And look how well its turning out for them? It took the intervention of Gordon Brown and the prospect of federalism to halt what was becoming an unstoppable momentum taking root in the alleged SUPPORTERS of the better together movement. They have been completely turned off at the whole scale doom mongering. Every person out there knows already that this vote has consequences. And they arent short term positive ones. But the ship will be brought back on track in the medium to long term and thereafter we'll have not only a similar (if not, better) economy, but will also be able to make our own decisions on our own policy and programmes. We will be independent.

Im trying hard not to slip into evangelism here, but how many nations fail following independence, how many of them return (mondays YES talking point), and how likely, HONESTLY, is it that an oil rich nation with its own side industries and global exports that has the infrastructure, education, and business acumen of one of the most important first world economies in the world are suddenly going to flush it down the pan for the sake of some kind of brazen FREEEDUM!!! ideology? Im going to hazard a guess and say, none. Not a single remote chance. Not only will independence bring a voice to the left of Scotland, it will be matched by the resurgent right cut free from their programs in England. Every Scottish person on the day of a yes vote (no matter how they vote) will roll up their sleeves, grab a bucket or a pen and get to work. Once theres work to be done, theres work to be done.

Okay, maybe i am sounding a bit evangelical. I just think the negativity misses the reason why we're neck and neck. If you cant figure out what it is yet that scotland are actually voting on (independence, not the political platform of the SNP or the alex salmond cult of personality), youre prone to misunderstanding the warning signs on what it means for the UK as a whole. Because yes or no, this is just the beginning of a long conversation about what it means to be British in the 21st century.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am just stating a few truths that seem to be subject to misunderstanding.

I agree this should be about bonding together as a union, and UK Govt has not addressed the real issue here.

But unfortunately fundamental economic realities are important. If Scotland leaves the UK will be plunged in to a downturn, and Scotland most likely a deep recession. What price freedom then ?

It shouldn't stop anyone voting yes, but be aware of the likely consequences.

I curse the Tories, they destroyed the social fabric of Britain.

You probably haven't noticed....but the UK is already deep in trouble and on the edge of another recession.

[Franky Bear]

Who do you think youre convincing though? Lets assume youre right. Lets assume that scottish oil has only 40 years left. Lets assume that the BoE gets to control the financial levers as the borrower of last resort. And lets assume that the EU application takes 5 years (and spain threaten to veto it purely on the grounds that its trying to prevent its own independence movement taking off).

Do you think that your typical scottish person is voting yes because they want their own scrooge mcduck money pit? This isnt a vote for a windfall. Its a vote fully aware that the break up of the union comes with some terrifying consequences to an independent scottish economy. And why do they know this? Because better together have been banging this drum since day 1. And look how well its turning out for them? It took the intervention of Gordon Brown and the prospect of federalism to halt what was becoming an unstoppable momentum taking root in the alleged SUPPORTERS of the better together movement. They have been completely turned off at the whole scale doom mongering. Every person out there knows already that this vote has consequences. And they arent short term positive ones. But the ship will be brought back on track in the medium to long term and thereafter we'll have not only a similar (if not, better) economy, but will also be able to make our own decisions on our own policy and programmes. We will be independent.

Im trying hard not to slip into evangelism here, but how many nations fail following independence, how many of them return (mondays YES talking point), and how likely, HONESTLY, is it that an oil rich nation with its own side industries and global exports that has the infrastructure, education, and business acumen of one of the most important first world economies in the world are suddenly going to flush it down the pan for the sake of some kind of brazen FREEEDUM!!! ideology? Im going to hazard a guess and say, none. Not a single remote chance. Not only will independence bring a voice to the left of Scotland, it will be matched by the resurgent right cut free from their programs in England. Every Scottish person on the day of a yes vote (no matter how they vote) will roll up their sleeves, grab a bucket or a pen and get to work. Once theres work to be done, theres work to be done.

Okay, maybe i am sounding a bit evangelical. I just think the negativity misses the reason why we're neck and neck. If you cant figure out what it is yet that scotland are actually voting on (independence, not the political platform of the SNP or the alex salmond cult of personality), youre prone to misunderstanding the warning signs on what it means for the UK as a whole. Because yes or no, this is just the beginning of a long conversation about what it means to be British in the 21st century.

Define "Fail"

[mommysboy]

Who do you think youre convincing though? Lets assume youre right. Lets assume that scottish oil has only 40 years left. Lets assume that the BoE gets to control the financial levers as the borrower of last resort. And lets assume that the EU application takes 5 years (and spain threaten to veto it purely on the grounds that its trying to prevent its own independence movement taking off).

Do you think that your typical scottish person is voting yes because they want their own scrooge mcduck money pit? This isnt a vote for a windfall. Its a vote fully aware that the break up of the union comes with some terrifying consequences to an independent scottish economy. And why do they know this? Because better together have been banging this drum since day 1. And look how well its turning out for them? It took the intervention of Gordon Brown and the prospect of federalism to halt what was becoming an unstoppable momentum taking root in the alleged SUPPORTERS of the better together movement. They have been completely turned off at the whole scale doom mongering. Every person out there knows already that this vote has consequences. And they arent short term positive ones. But the ship will be brought back on track in the medium to long term and thereafter we'll have not only a similar (if not, better) economy, but will also be able to make our own decisions on our own policy and programmes. We will be independent.

Im trying hard not to slip into evangelism here, but how many nations fail following independence, how many of them return (mondays YES talking point), and how likely, HONESTLY, is it that an oil rich nation with its own side industries and global exports that has the infrastructure, education, and business acumen of one of the most important first world economies in the world are suddenly going to flush it down the pan for the sake of some kind of brazen FREEEDUM!!! ideology? Im going to hazard a guess and say, none. Not a single remote chance. Not only will independence bring a voice to the left of Scotland, it will be matched by the resurgent right cut free from their programs in England. Every Scottish person on the day of a yes vote (no matter how they vote) will roll up their sleeves, grab a bucket or a pen and get to work. Once theres work to be done, theres work to be done.

Okay, maybe i am sounding a bit evangelical. I just think the negativity misses the reason why we're neck and neck. If you cant figure out what it is yet that scotland are actually voting on (independence, not the political platform of the SNP or the alex salmond cult of personality), youre prone to misunderstanding the warning signs on what it means for the UK as a whole. Because yes or no, this is just the beginning of a long conversation about what it means to be British in the 21st century.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am just stating a few truths that seem to be subject to misunderstanding.

I agree this should be about bonding together as a union, and UK Govt has not addressed the real issue here.

But unfortunately fundamental economic realities are important. If Scotland leaves the UK will be plunged in to a downturn, and Scotland most likely a deep recession. What price freedom then ?

It shouldn't stop anyone voting yes, but be aware of the likely consequences.

I curse the Tories, they destroyed the social fabric of Britain.

You probably haven't noticed....but the UK is already deep in trouble and on the edge of another recession.

In that case the recession in both Scotland and UK will be worse.

I don't know where your perception of the English is coming from? You seem to think we are all right wing prigs! You don't seem to understand that most English are as equally peed off as the Scots, Northerners in particular.

The only group leaving the UK should be Westminster imho.

[smokie36]

Well we will just have to wait and see what happens now....my vote is cast....I just hope there is at least a massive turnout.

[Johnniey]

...

I said that Scotsman IAN Wood is one of the most knowledgable figures in the industry, yet you ignore that fact,same as most Nationalist fanatics ignore most of the unbiased facts relating to this issue, because it contradicts their closed minds.

I know what you said. But the fact remains that Sir Ian Wood knows absolutely NOTHING about oil reserves.

Neither does Westminster.

Neither does Holyrood.

And neither do I although I have worked in the oil and gas exploration industry as an explorer for over 35 years. Determination of reserves is literally a black art and someone who supplies boats and services for the upstream oil and gas industry does not do the black arts.

Now, are you going to call me an insulting ultra-nationalist because on this point I do know what I am talking about?

You say that Scotsman IAN WOOD knows nothing about oil reserves, yet you do. Again most if not all the experts in this field contradict your view, and I am not talking about the experts in Westminster or Holyrood, but you want to take a gamble on your opinion,up to you, GOOD LUCK.

Do you read before posting?

I have highlighted the part in my post where I clearly state that despite working in oil and gas exploration for a very long time, I do not have the knowledge of the earth sciences to even hazard a guess at any oil fields estimates, let alone the North Sea reserves.

I have never, ever claimed that either Salmond's wildly optimistic reserve estimates are any more or any less likely than Darling's dire opposing view. However, I have stated that for such a piddling amount of North Sea oil, the 'Stay Together' team are in an awful panic over possibly losing it.

Maybe Sir Ian's gong conferred some degree of 'crystal ball' ability when it comes to guessing oil reserves... or maybe his engineering company prowess uses a dipstick to measure the reserves. However, I think he has been trotted out by Westminster spin doctors as an 'elder Scottish statesman', replete with the appropriate Aberdeen heritage, in a lame attempt to bolster the recent BP chairman's rather nebulous assertion that Scottish independence could somehow 'harm' North Sea production.

Of course he didn't read it. He is biased and wants not to know the facts. He wants us Scots to know he doesn't want us. Bloody idiot.

[mommysboy]

One thing though. I have never been to Scotland. I was under the impression it is a first world country and that living standards are on a par with England, US, Oz, France,Italy. Are things really so bad up there?

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 1 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[smokie36]

One thing though. I have never been to Scotland. I was under the impression it is a first world country and that living standards are on a par with England, US, Oz, France,Italy. Are things really so bad up there?

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 1 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Its terrible. Don't ever visit.

[smokie36]

I suspect sir Ian may be having trouble with his memory as in Feb of this year he said there were 24 billion barrels of oil left....when he retired he is quoted as saying 25 billion.

Another Tory man of course.....another liar exposed.

[transam]

So whats happening. Not read much today, though I have seen some high profile folk from around the globe telling folk to vote NO.

Any insider info....?

[mommysboy]

Well we will just have to wait and see what happens now....my vote is cast....I just hope there is at least a massive turnout.

Oh Dear !!!! Not a vote for Better Together I take it.

What do you plan to do this evening Smokes? ....... light a bleeding great firework in your front room and watch the house go up in flames !

[nontabury]

If Scotland wants to become truly independent financially it first has to discharge its obligations to the rest of the UK. It can't just run away from its obligations without losing all credibility in international markets. If it adopts a currency other that sterling it has to deal with the varying exchange rate of that currency compared to sterling as all its obligations to the rest of the UK are delineated in sterling.

Absolutely correct, plus the remaining UK would become Scotland's largest market, who would still be using the £.

[smokie36]

Well we will just have to wait and see what happens now....my vote is cast....I just hope there is at least a massive turnout.

Oh Dear !!!! Not a vote for Better Together I take it.

What do you plan to do this evening Smokes? ....... light a bleeding great firework in your front room and watch the house go up in flames !

I have just the one vote and I have used it.

I will relax and wait happily for the result of course!

[nontabury]

...

I said that Scotsman IAN Wood is one of the most knowledgable figures in the industry, yet you ignore that fact,same as most Nationalist fanatics ignore most of the unbiased facts relating to this issue, because it contradicts their closed minds.

I know what you said. But the fact remains that Sir Ian Wood knows absolutely NOTHING about oil reserves.

Neither does Westminster.

Neither does Holyrood.

And neither do I although I have worked in the oil and gas exploration industry as an explorer for over 35 years. Determination of reserves is literally a black art and someone who supplies boats and services for the upstream oil and gas industry does not do the black arts.

Now, are you going to call me an insulting ultra-nationalist because on this point I do know what I am talking about?

You say that Scotsman IAN WOOD knows nothing about oil reserves, yet you do. Again most if not all the experts in this field contradict your view, and I am not talking about the experts in Westminster or Holyrood, but you want to take a gamble on your opinion,up to you, GOOD LUCK.

Do you read before posting?

I have highlighted the part in my post where I clearly state that despite working in oil and gas exploration for a very long time, I do not have the knowledge of the earth sciences to even hazard a guess at any oil fields estimates, let alone the North Sea reserves.

I have never, ever claimed that either Salmond's wildly optimistic reserve estimates are any more or any less likely than Darling's dire opposing view. However, I have stated that for such a piddling amount of North Sea oil, the 'Stay Together' team are in an awful panic over possibly losing it.

Maybe Sir Ian's gong conferred some degree of 'crystal ball' ability when it comes to guessing oil reserves... or maybe his engineering company prowess uses a dipstick to measure the reserves. However, I think he has been trotted out by Westminster spin doctors as an 'elder Scottish statesman', replete with the appropriate Aberdeen heritage, in a lame attempt to bolster the recent BP chairman's rather nebulous assertion that Scottish independence could somehow 'harm' North Sea production.

I thought the reason for the interview was so that Scotsman Ian Wood could put the record straight, as he seemed to be under the impression that the Nationalist,had purposely distorted his previous estimates in order to mislead the Scottish electorate.

[jpinx]

If Scotland wants to become truly independent financially it first has to discharge its obligations to the rest of the UK. It can't just run away from its obligations without losing all credibility in international markets. If it adopts a currency other that sterling it has to deal with the varying exchange rate of that currency compared to sterling as all its obligations to the rest of the UK are delineated in sterling.

Absolutely correct, plus the remaining UK would become Scotland's largest market, who would still be using the £.

The markets will always be dictated by the traders, but geographically Scotland can trade with Norway almost as easily as England.

[mommysboy]

If Scotland wants to become truly independent financially it first has to discharge its obligations to the rest of the UK. It can't just run away from its obligations without losing all credibility in international markets. If it adopts a currency other that sterling it has to deal with the varying exchange rate of that currency compared to sterling as all its obligations to the rest of the UK are delineated in sterling.

Absolutely correct, plus the remaining UK would become Scotland's largest market, who would still be using the £.

The markets will always be dictated by the traders, but geographically Scotland can trade with Norway almost as easily as England.

Sell them oil?

[BKK Blues Brother]

When nationalism and socialism get in to bed together this is what happens...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2758514/The-Seriously-Nasty-Party-With-one-day-damning-evidence-bullying-intimidation-voters-Scots-nationalists-just-ask-Miliband.html#comments

[jpinx]

How can so many people get time off work to follow politicians round the streets with banners or ride round housing estates waving Scottish flags playing music? Let me guess at an answer, the majority are social scroungers claiming benefits who contribute little to society. This campaign as made me realise why in the past you had to own property or land in order to vote. A it means you make your decisions on an informed basis and b you base your decisions on facts not fiction because you are more aware of the costs you incur if you make the wrong decision. look at the facts before voting

These campaigns raise obscene amounts of money to promote themselves. The question perhaps more relevant is who benefits? Who was in charge of the purse-strings of the NO campaign run from Westminster ? Did the tax payer end up footing the bill for the NO campaign¿?

[Basil B]

How can so many people get time off work to follow politicians round the streets with banners or ride round housing estates waving Scottish flags playing music? Let me guess at an answer, the majority are social scroungers claiming benefits who contribute little to society. This campaign as made me realise why in the past you had to own property or land in order to vote. A it means you make your decisions on an informed basis and b you base your decisions on facts not fiction because you are more aware of the costs you incur if you make the wrong decision. look at the facts before voting

All those YES supporters shouting down any person who disagrees with them yet unable to fully answer the simplest of questions on what they will do if they actually win.

What ever happens this has split Scotland, Salmond has done for Scotland what Thaksin did for Thailand.

[nontabury]

One thing though. I have never been to Scotland. I was under the impression it is a first world country and that living standards are on a par with England, US, Oz, France,Italy. Are things really so bad up there?

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 1 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Interesting question, I come from Yorkshire in the north of England and the last time I visited Scotland was in the late 90's. this was about the time of the devolution referendum and at that time the Scots were also saying,how bad things were for them with many expressing the thought and Moaning that those terrible English were to blame. Imagine my surprise with what I saw, a region that was far more prosperous than my own region, including the north east which I had to pass through on my drive into Scotland. Yet they still want more of the national cake "good" we'll just have to be content with receiving all the re-allocated jobs and the revenue from the re-allocated financial sector, not to mention no longer having to subscribe to the Barnett formula.

[inutil]

Dude, scotland has/had its own areas of deprivation. Just like everywhere else in the UK in the 90s, youd find them in the places reliant on former heavy industries and going through serious economic transitions. Its very nice driving through the borders, just as its very nice walking down the Royal Mile. Its a lovely country full of beautiful scenery, but to argue it doesnt have its share of poverty is silly. Its like driving around the North East in the same period and popping into Alnwick and Morpeth (or even just Grey Street in the toon) and saying "well, this is a lovely area. Clearly the idea of Northern poverty is a touch exaggerated."

You might be cherry picking a wee bit there.

Edited September 17, 2014 by inutil

[jpinx]

How can so many people get time off work to follow politicians round the streets with banners or ride round housing estates waving Scottish flags playing music? Let me guess at an answer, the majority are social scroungers claiming benefits who contribute little to society. This campaign as made me realise why in the past you had to own property or land in order to vote. A it means you make your decisions on an informed basis and b you base your decisions on facts not fiction because you are more aware of the costs you incur if you make the wrong decision. look at the facts before voting

All those YES supporters shouting down any person who disagrees with them yet unable to fully answer the simplest of questions on what they will do if they actually win.

What ever happens this has split Scotland, Salmond has done for Scotland what Thaksin did for Thailand.

Indeed there is a split, but it is nothing like as acrimonious. The first general elections after this referendum are going to be even more interesting than tomorrows vote

[nontabury]

Dude, scotland has/had its own areas of deprivation. Just like everywhere else in the UK in the 90s, youd find them in the places reliant on former heavy industries and going through serious economic transitions. Its very nice driving through the borders, just as its very nice walking down the Royal Mile. Its a lovely country full of beautiful scenery, but to argue it doesnt have its share of poverty is silly. Its like driving around the North East in the same period and popping into Alnwick and Morpeth (or even just Grey Street in the toon) and saying "well, this is a lovely area. Clearly the idea of Northern poverty is a touch exaggerated."

You might be cherry picking a wee bit there.

I was't cherry picking, I did drive up, passing through and visiting Edinburgh continuing onto Glasgow and finishing off in Cumbernauld, admittedly this is not the whole of Scotland, but it is the region which is the most heavily populated. I did indeed see areas not as prosperous as other areas of Scotland, but all in all I realised who had been receiving a disproportional amount of the UK's money, allocated from Westminster.

[inutil]

Alright then, heres my counter argument.

I lived in Kilmarnock as a kid. it was a nice little town with lots to do and a vibrant little center you could go shopping. I moved away around the age of 10. I came back at the age of 20 (around 1995), to see nothing but boarded up shops and a dead on its arse city center. I then moved to Jesmond, and every day i enjoyed the absolute pleasure of the rich Middle classes as i walked through the dene. Clearly the toon was doing fine. I absolutely saw all of it and from Tynemouth to High Heaton all the way to even Fenham, i can tell you that Newcastle was in wonderful shape. Im sure you want to talk about Benwell, scotswood, and the like. But i dont know what they are. Clearly Newcastle was brilliant and scotland was a crap-sandwich. Definitely no cherry picking involved.

Edited September 17, 2014 by inutil

[smokie36]

How can so many people get time off work to follow politicians round the streets with banners or ride round housing estates waving Scottish flags playing music? Let me guess at an answer, the majority are social scroungers claiming benefits who contribute little to society. This campaign as made me realise why in the past you had to own property or land in order to vote. A it means you make your decisions on an informed basis and b you base your decisions on facts not fiction because you are more aware of the costs you incur if you make the wrong decision. look at the facts before voting

When I see your name I am reminded of Bill and Ben....your two personalities.

Just occasionally you top that though and remind me of someone called Oswald.

[jpinx]

Dude, scotland has/had its own areas of deprivation. Just like everywhere else in the UK in the 90s, youd find them in the places reliant on former heavy industries and going through serious economic transitions. Its very nice driving through the borders, just as its very nice walking down the Royal Mile. Its a lovely country full of beautiful scenery, but to argue it doesnt have its share of poverty is silly. Its like driving around the North East in the same period and popping into Alnwick and Morpeth (or even just Grey Street in the toon) and saying "well, this is a lovely area. Clearly the idea of Northern poverty is a touch exaggerated."

You might be cherry picking a wee bit there.

I was't cherry picking, I did drive up, passing through and visiting Edinburgh continuing onto Glasgow and finishing off in Cumbernauld, admittedly this is not the whole of Scotland, but it is the region which is the most heavily populated. I did indeed see areas not as prosperous as other areas of Scotland, but all in all I realised who had been receiving a disproportional amount of the UK's money, allocated from Westminster.

That's not even close to representative You're worse than an English MP !

[brewsterbudgen]

This powerful speech should swing it for 'no'

[Scott]

I was speaking to a friend from France, who is hoping that Scotland will become independent. He is from Brittany and he is hoping for independence one day. He said how Scotland goes will be pivotal for a number of areas, including:

--Basque

--Corsica

--Belgium

I know it's a little off-topic but will Scottish Independence affect any of these areas?

[jpinx]

I was speaking to a friend from France, who is hoping that Scotland will become independent. He is from Brittany and he is hoping for independence one day. He said how Scotland goes will be pivotal for a number of areas, including:

--Basque

--Corsica

--Belgium

I know it's a little off-topic but will Scottish Independence affect any of these areas?

Undoubtedly -- that's why the bosses in Spain are so annoyed. Catalonia is waiting for the result before launching it's own campaign.

Many people forget that Czeckoslovakia split in 2 without even having a referendum !!!

There's lots of other candidates - like Wales and Cornwall - which have a status of their own, as a principality and Duchy respectively.

It's not going to make a whit of a difference by posting in here -- but the debate has shown some interesting aspects. Thailand is not the only country suffering from a lack of unbiased history lessons

Meantime -- I've emailed all my contacts in Scotland to say only one thing -- GET OUT AND VOTE !!!

[transam]

I was speaking to a friend from France, who is hoping that Scotland will become independent. He is from Brittany and he is hoping for independence one day. He said how Scotland goes will be pivotal for a number of areas, including:

--Basque

--Corsica

--Belgium

I know it's a little off-topic but will Scottish Independence affect any of these areas?

Doubt it.