Wp Without Degree?

[Loaded]

Due to recent events that I was told would never happen…Well, they happened, as I was saying, get an education and then welcome, stay as long as you like, with out an education welcome as a tourist not a teacher. How long did you think it could go on? Denial? They have medication for that? Peace and blessings wherever you go I honestly wish you the best of luck. Who said they would teach my child and I would be happy? I would like to hear your answer now.

This is something Dr Matt of the Language Institute of Chiang Mai University posted on ajarn dot com concerning degreed teachers in general and more specifically working at CMU. Search on the site for Drmatt108 and you'll find it.

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Hate to contradict you, especially an old mate like you! but we DO hire people at the Language Institute who DO NOT have a degrees IF they have done the Chiang Mai University TEFL, this was the main reason that we started the program in the first place, so that we could have a supply of teachers. Something which is becoming critical now we are moving into our new teaching complex. We are able to do this and obtain WP's because the university has a provision with the MOE to hire "special lecturers" when needed. I, personally, believe that this is a good idea because I have seen A LOT of good teachers who don't have degrees and A LOT of teachers with degrees who are not such good teachers. So what I am saying is that a degree obviously isn't the mark of whether you can teach or not. We had a woman working with us since Oct 2005, who found it hard to get work elsewhere because her lack of degree and I would say that she is one of the best teachers we have. I also know that the Department of English has one or two non-degreed teachers who have taught there for many years and are knockout teachers. I suppose I am more than a little bias. I, myself, left school at 15 and worked till I was in my early 30's then started university at 34! Yes, it is true that we have a lot of applicants however we are attempting to hire more trainers. I usually interview applicants and what I am looking for, in general, is someone who I believe will get work in Thailand AND who might be able to work with us at the Language Institute (which is still the best place I have ever worked in my life). Sometimes, for a number or reasons I suggest that people consider TEFL's other than ours(We have a certain approach to EFL that not the right fit for everyone) Cheers. Matt Director,TEFL, CMU

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[Ijustwannateach]

Haha! thanks for that, Loaded.

[PeaceBlondie]

That would be the website administered by an established teacher at a southern matayom school, with a work permit and visa, who still doesn't have his bachelor's degree.

This brouhaha (sp?) over visas lately has said very little about teachers not having work permits without a degree. Teachers without proper visas, yes. Teachers having trouble getting a work permit (with or without a degree), yes.

But Dr. Fisher has a valid point: these recent visa changes do affect the foreign population for English teachers, and being without a degree makes it just that much more difficult. Some employers require a degree; others don't. Some Ministry of Labour officers might require a degree; others don't. We live in interesting times.

[Loaded]

I agree 100% with Dr Fisher as well that if I studied a subject at secondary school, college or uni level, I would expect my teacher to have at least a degree in that field as well as some sort of teacher training.

But TEFL teaching is very different in that you don't need a degree to be able to teach the present simple verb tense. Teacher training of a recognised standard is important though.

IMO

Edited September 16, 2006 by Loaded

[SusanRichardson]

I agree 100% with Dr Fisher as well that if I studied a subject at secondary school, college or uni level, I would expect my teacher to have at least a degree in that field as well as some sort of teacher training.

But TEFL teaching is very different in that you don't need a degree to be able to teach the present simple verb tense. Teacher training of a recognised standard is important though.

IMO

True or False question:

A college degree, legitimate one, is required to meet the M.o.Ed. standards to teach in an MEP Program at a government school.

I was told this, just wondered if true? Cheers. Susan

[mbkudu]

I agree 100% with Dr Fisher as well that if I studied a subject at secondary school, college or uni level, I would expect my teacher to have at least a degree in that field as well as some sort of teacher training.

But TEFL teaching is very different in that you don't need a degree to be able to teach the present simple verb tense. Teacher training of a recognised standard is important though.

IMO

True or False question:

A college degree, legitimate one, is required to meet the M.o.Ed. standards to teach in an MEP Program at a government school.

I was told this, just wondered if true? Cheers. Susan

Couldn't you see these rules being relaxed in the near future?

[Loaded]

I agree 100% with Dr Fisher as well that if I studied a subject at secondary school, college or uni level, I would expect my teacher to have at least a degree in that field as well as some sort of teacher training.

But TEFL teaching is very different in that you don't need a degree to be able to teach the present simple verb tense. Teacher training of a recognised standard is important though.

IMO

True or False question:

A college degree, legitimate one, is required to meet the M.o.Ed. standards to teach in an MEP Program at a government school.

I was told this, just wondered if true? Cheers. Susan

There's no such thing as a MoE approved MEP (Mini English Program). There are EPs (English Programs) approved by the MoE. It's true many schools run what they call MEPs or Bilingual Programs but they are just a product offered by a particular school and are not directly supervised by the MoE, but often these schools present their program in a way that convinces parents they are MoE approved EPs.

As far as I'm aware (could be wrong) there are no government schools with MoE approved EPs, just private schools.

So, in response to your question Susan the answer is false because the scenario you describe doesn't exist.

Cheers, Loaded.

[Ijustwannateach]

Good answer, Loaded. Furthermore, TEFL is not always (or even typically) taught as part of an MEP program- and would not be subject to the same qualifications, should they even formally exist.

[kenkannif]

Actually going by the other site and who is leaving it seems that degreed teachers and legit ones at that are leaving over the non-degreed peeps. Strange!!!

[Ijustwannateach]

^If that's true, Ken, it's just what I predicted after the "Karr" episode.

It's not so strange when you consider that the only thing that can be done legally is to increase the legal restrictions- which makes it harder for those who aspire to legal status. If you never went for that anyway, why would you care? More hassle for those with certain levels of qualifications just means too much hassle for some, finally.

[kenkannif]

^ Spot on mate. I was saying the same thing to a colleague this morning (will copyright it now though to you and send you 5 Baht every time ).

[Ijustwannateach]

Could I get that in another currency?

[PeaceBlondie]

People with better qualifications (degree, TEFL cert, good references, etc.) can afford to go elsewhere, get paid more, get more respect, etc. To where can an unqualified "cowboy" "backpacker" go?

I know some cowboys and cowgirls in Texas who made it up pretty high (US Ambassador to the UK, Court of St. James, for example), and I still use my own backback.

[Loaded]

I know some cowboys and cowgirls in Texas who made it up pretty high (US Ambassador to the UK, Court of St. James, for example), and I still use my own backback.

remember the bootlegger Kennedy who also made it to the court of St. James.

[PeaceBlondie]

I know some cowboys and cowgirls in Texas who made it up pretty high (US Ambassador to the UK, Court of St. James, for example), and I still use my own backback.

remember the bootlegger Kennedy who also made it to the court of St. James.

Right. I'm thinking of Anne Armstrong, on whose ranch Dick Cheney shot his friend this year. My ex-wife attended Trinity University with Richard Kleberg III ("Tres"), who graduated; the Klebergs own a small place of two million acres, the King Ranch.

Lyndon B. Johnson was a Texas cowboy who taught school after graduating from Southwest Texas Teachers College. He once said to his buddy, "John, I can't replace these cabinet secretarys that I inherited from Kennedy, because I can't find enough well qualified alumni from my alma mater." His friend John was a Connoly, governor of Texas, who got shot in the open Lincoln with Kennedy in Dallas.

J. K. Rawlings, the sterling billionaire, once taught EFL. Oh, but I don't know if she had an earned degree in education, so she probably doesn't know how to write for schoolchildren.

[DrFisher]

Actually the truth is teachers with degrees make the same as teachers without degrees (for the most part), that’s my argument. Uneducated teachers drive the wages down for all of us, as do illegal workers. I don't have any problems with anyone nor do I mean any disrespect to anyone but this has been a big problem in my country for years, unqualified workers and illegal workers. I know as a fact to teaching English, as a second language in my country requires a bachelor's degree. Face it most schools are in business to make money not to teach English. So, if I didn't choose my words quite right I apologize no offence intended.

[PeaceBlondie]

Agreed, Dr. Fisher (and no offence taken, either). My limited TEFL experience in northern Thailand found me competing with guys who had no degree, for the same dismal wages. They didn't have a TEFL cert, a longterm visa, etc., yet we were all competing for 25K jobs, even if we taught English, science, or maths.

At least in theory, if the less qualified and less legal TEFLers left northern Thailand (and BKK, etc.), you might think that the demand and salaries for better qualified teachers would go up. My guess, however, is that demand is inelastic, or that wages are inelastic. Oops, there I go again, thinking economically without asking my son.

Anyway, I doubt many schools around Thailand will raise the average salary to 45K just to get a teacher of EFL below the uni level. The skill of the students, and the English teaching skill of the Thai teachers, in secondary education here, just doesn't call for a BA-English or a B.Ed. in English. The secondary and primary schools would be foolish to pay the going wages for an international school teacher (100K) in programs that don't make a student fluent in English.

From what my BA-MEd certified daughter tells me, I'd have to have a BA in education and a teaching subject to teach ESL back home, and then I might need special ESL certification. But then, I'd start at around 160,000 baht per month.

[Loaded]

Why do so many foreigners believe they are worth 3 or 4 times the salary of Thai teachers who do the same job?

OK, relative to the west wages are low. There are real economic reasons for this: it's a bloody poor country. Even the Thais who we think must be loaded because they drive good cars have them on credit and return home to homes valued less than the car outside. There are exceptions, but most of them won't be coming back to Thailand for a while!

The salaries in Thailand are low. You know this before you come here. Why come here and then complain? The salaries in Japan are high, we all had a choice.

[Samui_Spen]

Having spent the best part of the last hour reading these posts on Wp's , degrees, no degrees etc I am more confused now than ever! I recently enrolled on a 4 month intensive (3 month distance learning 1 month classroom based) Trinity TESOL. I do not have a degree, but i still got on the course!!!! My intention is to go back to Asia to teach English to speakers of other languages as this, I feel, is the only option open for me to be able to live and work in Asia. I will try my best at what I want to do and can only wish, for the time being, of being able to exist permanently in that (IMO)wonderful part of the world. So wonderful that I am prepared to leave behind parents and sisters who love me in search of what makes me spiritually (even though i'm not religious, strange I know!) happy. I hope I dont upset anybody by wanting do this.

[Ijustwannateach]

Some home truths:

1. Anyone who realises how much money the brigands who own/profit from most schools here make will quickly abandon the idea that Thailand (or Thai schools, anyway) is "poor." The salaries are poor because of the popularity of life here and the perception that the country is poor. If you don't understand what I mean, look at an EP program sometime with 1000 students or so paying 50-100K/term/head yet paying their two dozen or so foreign teachers 30-45K a month. An even better scam is a school charging, say, 1000B/student/month for one English lesson a week with the native speaker (I've heard of charges like this from Thai parents)- if a whole school of 1000 participates (and they're packed into, say, 20 classes of 50 students each) the program administrator gets 1,000,000B per month, losing a paltry 30-35K to the TEFL teacher.

To a lesser extent I have to agree with Fisher that the relative popularity of life here (compared to many other destinations) drives down salaries. But they are already artificially low in the region- even Vietnam, not a country well known for its market economics, pays more.

2. Japan does not have high salaries, except in absolute terms. A typical TEFLer in Japan earns a third or less what a "real" Japanese teacher does. In addition, expenses are much higher, on the order of 3-4x for most items (rent, transportation) and up to 10-15x for certain types of items (fruit, food, etc.). In effect, a TEFLer in Japan is a blue-collar worker, unless he hustles pretty darn hard and lives in very basic style.

3. We are worth more than the Thai teachers in teaching our native language using our native language by far. Anyone who's worked with a lot of Thai teachers knows how ineffective so many of them are even in communicating by themselves, much less transmitting the language to the students. In another sense, economically while there is a demand for foreign teachers we are more valuable by simple law of supply and demand. This is how the market works. If we were getting paid what Thais do, we wouldn't be here. We are here because we don't.

Samui-Spen, life in Thailand *is* confusing. That's one of the challenges. There aren't any guarantees, and to be perfectly honest, this is not a very good time to be starting a teaching career here no matter what your qualifications are.

"Steven"

[Loaded]

Having spent the best part of the last hour reading these posts on Wp's , degrees, no degrees etc I am more confused now than ever! I recently enrolled on a 4 month intensive (3 month distance learning 1 month classroom based) Trinity TESOL. I do not have a degree, but i still got on the course!!!! My intention is to go back to Asia to teach English to speakers of other languages as this, I feel, is the only option open for me to be able to live and work in Asia. I will try my best at what I want to do and can only wish, for the time being, of being able to exist permanently in that (IMO)wonderful part of the world. So wonderful that I am prepared to leave behind parents and sisters who love me in search of what makes me spiritually (even though i'm not religious, strange I know!) happy. I hope I dont upset anybody by wanting do this.

You'll have a great experience here. despite the negativity of some posts nearly everyone loves the place, and it's a wonderful place to live and work. Many people are here with the same cirumstance as you and they have good and secure jobs.

[Ijustwannateach]

Loaded's right- the place is great (after all, I'm still here after all is said and done). But it can be a rocky ride and it can take a long time to get legal (or even to know what constitutes legal- some of the schools still don't).

If you tough it out, you can be quite happy here. It's not what I'd call a cakewalk, though.