The Old 'bar Thread' Again

[donx]

3. Rule of thumb: The way to make a small amount of money in Thailand is to put a lot of money into a bar.

You are forgetting that the OP isn't investing this money in Thailand but in HCMC if I understood his vague reference correctly.

OK , sorry but , IMHO this is an acronym too far.

I read this , and read what the OP wrote and I still can't imagine <deleted> HCMC might mean.

BTW LOL and all

HCMC = Ho Chi Minh City

What the fck does <deleted> mean?

[JimsKnight]

Use caution, I'd think twice and keep bar managing/Restaurant to the thais. Unless you have direct family (non thai) working with you. The thais are handy no doubt in setting up an operation but Letting them handle the top level work is risky (unless you have absolute faith in them, and trust them with you life). Remember I and many others in thailand know a ton of people whove lost money on bars/restaurants/guesthouses. Unless you hit everything right your business can become a loss and the ongoing battle to turn a profit will be liable to turn into a money drain.

You've got the right attitude with the money, don't expect to see it back! If it does then its all good.

For what its worth good luck!

You'll need it.

[Noel]

Have you prepared a detailed business proposal including the volume of business that would be needed for you to make a personal return of USD 1,000 per month?

IMHO, if you are not going to be totally involved in the daily running of business, then you may as well regard your ‘investment’ as little more than a gift to your ‘business partner’.

As far as paying off the police is concerned, much depends on the norm in your area. It may be that just the regular police send their bagman around once per month, or you may also have a visit from the Tourist Police as well. To think that such payments provide any form of extra security above the norm is at best wishful thinking.

As for the so-called ‘mafia’ wanting a cut, it can and does happen. It is utterly naïve to conclude that just because Stickman has not received e-mails to the contrary that it therefore does not happen.

I seem to recall Stickman quoting bar owners who believed that HIV/AIDS was a load of hype because they personally had never known anyone with it.

Yeah, right…

[tutsiwarrior]

thanks for all the replies...the bar idea is just a pipe dream, I'm not a business person and don't like risks inherent in being such. I just had an idea, and a possible opportunity and a contact that could make it happen...

cheers...hope yer beer didn't get warm while tapping out yer replies...

[Sunbelt Asia]

As for the so-called ‘mafia’ wanting a cut, it can and does happen

Please name one bar that had the "mafia" in Thailand wanting a cut and it did happen. Until one bar ever said this did happen, it is a myth.

Difference between fact and fiction. I myself am only interested in knowing the facts. The fact is I have spoken to hundreds of bar owners in the last 5 years. Many that owned a number of units and not one ever paid the 'mafia" a cut.

Can it happen? Yes. Just like someone could drive a 1926 Mercedes Benz 630K in Thailand next year. Thailand has the second highest number of Mercedes Benz in the World, someone could import the 1926 Benz and of course it can happen. But did it happen last year?

Regards

Mythbuster

thanks for all the replies...the bar idea is just a pipe dream, I'm not a business person and don't like risks inherent in being such.

Good for you. Owning a business is not for everyone and being a partner has a higher degree of failure. In your case, it was the right decision as even though you said

the $10,000 is risk capital.

In reality it wasn't. Well done, you looked at yourself before you made the investment and your own personality.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Noel]

As for the so-called ‘mafia’ wanting a cut, it can and does happen

Please name one bar that had the "mafia" in Thailand wanting a cut and it did happen. Until one bar ever said this did happen, it is a myth.

Difference between fact and fiction. I myself am only interested in knowing the facts. The fact is I have spoken to hundreds of bar owners in the last 5 years. Many that owned a number of units and not one ever paid the 'mafia" a cut.

Can it happen? Yes. Just like someone could drive a 1926 Mercedes Benz 630K in Thailand next year. Thailand has the second highest number of Mercedes Benz in the World, someone could import the 1926 Benz and of course it can happen. But did it happen last year?

Regards

Mythbuster

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Well you can carry on living in your own little world if you like, but as I personally made the payments I know for a fact that it happened.

'Mythbuster'?

[Sunbelt Asia]

Well you can carry on living in your own little world if you like, but as I personally made the payments I know for a fact that it happened.

I'm openminded. Couple questions for starters...

Where was this bar located?

What was the name of this bar?

What years did this bar operate?

How much did you pay in money to the "mafia"?

Did the "mafia" look at the books?

What did the bar get in return for this money?

How often did the mafia come around?

Were you legal? Have a work permit? Was your boss legal?

Did the "mafia" go to anybody elses bar?

Thanks in advance.

[Noel]

Well you can carry on living in your own little world if you like, but as I personally made the payments I know for a fact that it happened.

I'm openminded. Couple questions for starters...

Where was this bar located?

What was the name of this bar?

What years did this bar operate?

How much did you pay in money to the "mafia"?

Did the "mafia" look at the books?

What did the bar get in return for this money?

How often did the mafia come around?

Were you legal? Have a work permit? Was your boss legal?

Did the "mafia" go to anybody elses bar?

Thanks in advance.

Priceless!

[donx]

Well you can carry on living in your own little world if you like, but as I personally made the payments I know for a fact that it happened.

I'm openminded. Couple questions for starters...

Where was this bar located?

What was the name of this bar?

What years did this bar operate?

How much did you pay in money to the "mafia"?

Did the "mafia" look at the books?

What did the bar get in return for this money?

How often did the mafia come around?

Were you legal? Have a work permit? Was your boss legal?

Did the "mafia" go to anybody elses bar?

Thanks in advance.

Priceless!

From your response, I assume you can't (or won't) answer any of Sunbelt's questions. If not, then your previous posts aren't very persuasive.

[Chopper]

I'm openminded. Couple questions for starters...

Where was this bar located?

What was the name of this bar?

What years did this bar operate?

How much did you pay in money to the "mafia"?

Did the "mafia" look at the books?

What did the bar get in return for this money?

How often did the mafia come around?

Were you legal? Have a work permit? Was your boss legal?

Did the "mafia" go to anybody elses bar?

Thanks in advance.

‘Openminded’, (sic). No offence but a few other adjectives spring to mind reading your list of questions. They seem to border on the supercilious...

Do you want a copy of the bloke’s passport as well?

I know for a fact that one bar was making payments some years ago to the ‘mafia’; they were even ‘encouraged’ to serve a certain brand of beer.

I would venture to suggest that it may not be the most sensible of ideas to publish such details on the web.

[Gary A]

I know one guy that opened a bar and it worked out well for him. He leased a shophouse and opened the bar on the ground floor. He built himself a VERY nice apartment upstairs. The bar had VERY little business. One day I asked him why he kept the bar open. He told me that before he had the bar he spent all his time in other bars and then had to stumble to his apartment. Now he drinks his own beer at a bargain price and saves a lot of money. He no longer has to stumble to his apartment and only has to stumble up the stairs. He had to pay apartment rent anyways. The bar kept his girlfriend busy and he let her keep all the profits other than the profit he drinks. The last time I went past the place he was still sitting drinking but he had no bartender and was looking for a new manager/bartender/girlfriend. He shrugs his shoulders and said that they come and go.

[Heng]

We're just getting into disagreements over semantics here. Sunbelt agrees that payments to the police are made. Other posters keep referring to the mafia. Well, in many countries, the actions of the police (not necessarily in the line of duty.... more often as an away from the job hobby, sideline business) here are exactly parallel to mafia behaviour. And I'm not referring to all police by any means. Plenty of police (Nakorn Baan, CSD, traffic, whatever...even Tessakij) play by the book.

Just because they aren't Italian, Chinese, or Russian, doesn't make them not "mafia." And like most of such behaviour in the world, you're not going to be able to read about it in the company newsletter or find notations in the company books either. I do understand Sunbelt's interest in minimizing such rumors though. There's still bills and rent to be paid. One doesn't want potential business owners all thinking that they will have to pay the piper. And that's true as well, not everyone will. It's pretty silly calling it a myth though.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Heng

[RAZZELL]

We're just getting into disagreements over semantics here.

Instead of the word mafia...Why don't you just say some "Villains"

Edited July 26, 2006 by RAZZELL

[Sunbelt Asia]

I do understand Sunbelt's interest in minimizing such rumors though. There's still bills and rent to be paid. One doesn't want potential business owners all thinking that they will have to pay the piper. And that's true as well, not everyone will. It's pretty silly calling it a myth though.

If a bar had to pay the mafia. Then I would scream it from the mountain top that it would be required. We don't hide facts or minimizing rumors. That is how we do business, even if we went bankrupt tomorrow. It will never change; we do business the right way with integrity.

It is a myth till I know of one case. Certainly if someone invested in a bar and it happen. We would get a call “Why wasn't I told?” We have been involved with over 50 bar transfers all over Thailand from 200,000 Baht to 50 million Baht and not one case has it ever been a issue, before or after the business transfer.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[eddy-ham]

A view from another country Japan.

Two Aussie guy I know married to 2 Japanese girls owned a bar there and every month a bunch of flowers came around with a bill for 10,000yen. Full invoice all legal and they never had any problems, and lived happily ever after.

See it does not have to be illegal just expensive.

[Sunbelt Asia]

See it does not have to be illegal just expensive.

Was the bill for 10,000 yen in Thailand or Japan?

[eddy-ham]

See it does not have to be illegal just expensive.

Was the bill for 10,000 yen in Thailand or Japan?

Bar in Japan paid in Japan.

The reason for the message was to point out that the so called mafia does not have to use

the old outdate methods as shown on TV .

[Heng]

I do understand Sunbelt's interest in minimizing such rumors though. There's still bills and rent to be paid. One doesn't want potential business owners all thinking that they will have to pay the piper. And that's true as well, not everyone will. It's pretty silly calling it a myth though.

If a bar had to pay the mafia. Then I would scream it from the mountain top that it would be required. We don't hide facts or minimizing rumors. That is how we do business, even if we went bankrupt tomorrow. It will never change; we do business the right way with integrity.

It is a myth till I know of one case. Certainly if someone invested in a bar and it happen. We would get a call “Why wasn't I told?” We have been involved with over 50 bar transfers all over Thailand from 200,000 Baht to 50 million Baht and not one case has it ever been a issue, before or after the business transfer.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

If any of those 50 are on Walking Street in Pattaya, if you could please name them since they have nothing to hide and are obviously legit businesses (and it's information that you readily ask from another poster above), I'd say it's a good bet that they are indeed paying the police special fees (not associated with any red boxes) to operate and not interfere in their businesses. I'd bet that I can even find out the exact/near amounts that are being paid (if the properties happen to be rented from a friend of mine) and the rough terms of the arrangements. These can then be confirmed by random TV members... "hey Chuck, I heard on TV that you need to pay 45,000 a month to CL so they aren't in here arresting your Uzbek 'waitresses' every night." And then it won't be a myth anymore. Of course, I may be wrong, we'll call it a friendly/amusing research project. I personally have no interest in bars or bar ownership so I can indeed say that I have a neutral academic interest (so I won't include a business/integrity 'that's the way we do business' one liner here).

Edited August 1, 2006 by Heng

[Sunbelt Asia]

I do understand Sunbelt's interest in minimizing such rumors though. There's still bills and rent to be paid. One doesn't want potential business owners all thinking that they will have to pay the piper. And that's true as well, not everyone will. It's pretty silly calling it a myth though.

If a bar had to pay the mafia. Then I would scream it from the mountain top that it would be required. We don't hide facts or minimizing rumors. That is how we do business, even if we went bankrupt tomorrow. It will never change; we do business the right way with integrity.

It is a myth till I know of one case. Certainly if someone invested in a bar and it happen. We would get a call “Why wasn't I told?” We have been involved with over 50 bar transfers all over Thailand from 200,000 Baht to 50 million Baht and not one case has it ever been a issue, before or after the business transfer.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

If any of those 50 are on Walking Street in Pattaya, if you could please name them since they have nothing to hide and are obviously legit businesses (and it's information that you readily ask from another poster above), I'd say it's a good bet that they are indeed paying the police special fees (not associated with any red boxes) to operate and not interfere in their businesses. I'd bet that I can even find out the exact/near amounts that are being paid (if the properties happen to be rented from a friend of mine) and the rough terms of the arrangements. These can then be confirmed by random TV members... "hey Chuck, I heard on TV that you need to pay 45,000 a month to CL so they aren't in here arresting your Uzbek 'waitresses' every night." And then it won't be a myth anymore. Of course, I may be wrong, we'll call it a friendly/amusing research project. I personally have no interest in bars or bar ownership so I can indeed say that I have a neutral academic interest (so I won't include a business/integrity 'that's the way we do business' one liner here).

POLICE GET PAID

Do you understand that?

Go back and look in this tread where I said this...

The bottom line to sum this up.

I don't feel any payment is made to any mafia involved in Bars.

Every bar owner I have spoken to, have not been involved with any payment to any mafia.

Payments are made to the police by bar owners. I do feel this is corruption.

Any bar owner I ever talked to, felt this was not corruption, but it was "security" and had no problem with it.

Payments for a beer bar is around 2,000 Baht to the Police.

A regular bar can be from 2,000 Baht to 8,000 Baht per month.

A nightclub can be much higher +++

After hours bar is 100,000 Baht per month

Once again I never said “police were not being paid.” Go back and read the thread. I said no mafia was being paid. As for the police, I would surmise every bar the police are getting something paid to them but as stated it’s a small amount that most bar owners consider cheaper than paying a security guard. The so called “Russian, Italian or whatever mafia” that’s a different story and a myth in Thailand.

Any other questions on the police and the mafia or do I have to go slower?

[~G~]

Any bar owner I ever talked to, felt this was not corruption, but it was "security" and had no problem with it.

No problem? What about the problem of having to close down? As in http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=65201, where you said:

It was so high profile. 5 different Police groups wanted money every month. You get a raid and kills your trade. Not much money in having people stand around peeing in a bottle instead of drinking beer. (You are dead meat if one person is carrying drugs or is underage. Lots of stress worrying if your competitor is setting you up. 30 day closure if it happens. )

...

the different groups all wanting to provide security or hours that you should be making money or your customers will be peeing in a bottle while you have 200 staff being paid.

"5 different Police Groups wanting money every month" and "worrying about competitors setting you up", sounds awfully similar to mafia behaviour to me.

Edited August 3, 2006 by ~G~

[Sunbelt Asia]

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_%28disambiguation%29

Mafia may mean:

Mafia, a criminal organization

Mafia Island off the coast of Tanzania

Mafia (game), a party game

Mafia: The City of Lost Heaven, a video game

Jane Austen's Mafia!, a movie

Mafia, an album by Black Label Society

B.U.G. Mafia or simply Mafia is a romanian rap group since 1995.

I for one never thought the Police were any of those above.

The Mafia, also referred to in "True Lords" Italian as Cosa Nostra ("Our Thing" or "This Thing of Ours"), is a secret society formed in the mid-19th century in Sicily. An offshoot emerged on the East Coast of the United States during the late 19th century following waves of Italian immigration to that country.

The Mafia's power in the United States peaked in the mid-20th century, until a series of FBI investigations in the 1970s and 1980s somewhat curtailed the Mafia's influence. Despite the decline, the Mafia and its reputation have become entrenched in American popular culture, portrayed in movies, TV shows, and even product commercials.

Despite its decline the Mafia has remained the most powerful criminal organization operating in the U.S. and uses this status to maintain control over much of both Chicago's and New York City's organized criminal activity.

Origin of the term

The word 'mafia' derives form of old Sicilian adjective "mafiusu" which has its roots in the Arabic mahjas, meaning "aggressive boasting, bragging". Roughly translated it means "swagger", but can also be translated as "boldness, bravado". In reference to a man, "mafiusu" in nineteenth-century Sicily was ambiguous, signyfying a bully, arrogant but also fearless, enterprising, and proud, according to scholar Diego Gambetta.[1]

The connotation of the word with the criminal secret society was made by the 1863 play I mafiusu di la Vicaria 'The Beautiful (people) of Vicaria' by Giuseppe Rizzotto and Gaetano Mosca which is about criminal gangs in the Palermo prison. The words mafia or mafiusu are never mentioned in the play, and were probably put in the title because it would add local flair.

The association between "mafiusu" and criminal gangs was made by the association the play's title made with the criminal gangs that was new to Siclian and Italian society at the time. Consequently, the word mafia was generated from fictional source loosely inspired by the real thing and was used by outsiders to describe it. The use of the term mafia was subsequently taken over in the Italian state's early reports on the phenomenon. The word "mafia" made its first official appearance in 1865 in a report by the then prefect of Palermo, the marquis Filippo Antonio Gualterio.

Leopoldo Franchetti, an Italian deputy who travelled to Sicily and who wrote one of the first authoritative reports on the mafia in 1876, described the designation of the term mafia: "the term mafia found a class of violent criminals ready and waiting for a name to define them, and, given their special character and importance in Sicilian society, they had the right to a different name from that defining vulgar criminals in other countries".

Some observers have seen "mafia" as a set of positive attributes deeply rooted in popular culture, as a "way of being", as illustrated in the definition by the Sicilian ethnographer, Giuseppe Pitrè, at the end of the 19th century: "Mafia is the consciousness of one's own worth, the exaggerated concept of individual force as the sole arbiter of every conflict, of every clash of interests or ideas." [2]

Many Sicilians did not regard these men as criminals but as role models and protectors, given that the state appeared to offer no protection of the poor and weak. As late as the 1950s, the funeral epitaph of the legendary boss of Villalba, Calogero Vizzini, stated that "his 'mafia' was not criminal, but stood for respect of the law, defense of all rights, greatness of character. It was love." Here, "mafia" means something like pride, honor, even social responsibility; an attitude, not an organization. Likewise, in 1925, the former Italian prime minister Vittorio Emanuele Orlando stated in the Italian senate that he was proud of being "mafioso", because that word meant honorable, noble, generous.

"Cosa Nostra"

According to some mafiosi, the real name of the Mafia is Cosa Nostra, meaning 'our world, tradition, values'. Many have claimed, as did the Mafia turncoat Tommaso Buscetta, that the word mafia was a literary creation. Other Mafia defectors, such as Antonio Calderone and Salvatore Contorno, said the same thing. According to them, the real thing was "cosa nostra". To men of honour belonging to the organisation, there is no need to name it. Mafiosi introduce known members to other known members as belonging to "cosa nostra" (our thing) or "la stessa cosa" (the same thing). Only the outside world needs a name to describe it, hence the capitalized version of the words: Cosa Nostra.

Cosa Nostra was first used, in the beginning of the 1960s, in the United States by Joseph Valachi, a mafioso turned state witness, during the hearings of the McClellan Commission. At the time, it was understood as a proper name, fostered by the FBI and disseminated by the media. The designation gained wide popularity and almost replaced the term Mafia. The FBI even added an article to the term, calling it 'La Cosa Nostra'. In Italy the article 'la' is never used when the term refers to the Mafia; commonly "la nostra cosa" is used when meaning "our thing" in general contexts (the inverted ordering of the words in "Cosa Nostra" is due to dialectal influences).

Rituals

The orientation ritual in most families happens when a man becomes an associate, and then, a soldier. As described by Tommaso Buscetta to judge Giovanni Falcone, the neophyte is brought together with at least three "men of honor" of the family and the oldest member present warns him that "this House" is meant to protect the weak against the abuse of the powerful; he then pricks the finger of the initiate and spills his blood onto a sacred image. The image is placed in the hand of the initiate and lit on fire. The neophyte must withstand the pain of the burning, passing the image from hand to hand, until the image has been consumed, while swearing to keep faith with the principles of "Cosa Nostra," solemnly swearing that "may my flesh burn like this saint if I fail to keep my oath."[3]

The Mafia in Sicily

Originating during the mid 19th century, the Mafia served as protection for the large orange and lemon estates surrounding the city of Palermo.[4] From this, the Mafia began to spread its roots among the landowners and politicians of Sicily. Forming strong links with the government (it is more than likely that many politicians were members or collaborators) the Mafia gained significant power.

During the Fascist period in Italy, Cesare Mori, prefect of Palermo, used special powers granted to him to prosecute the Mafia, forcing many Mafiosi to flee abroad or risk being jailed. Many of the Mafiosi who escaped fled to the United States, among them Joseph Bonanno, nicknamed Joe Bananas, who came to dominate the U.S. branch of the Mafia. However, when Mori started to persecute the Mafiosi involved in the Fascist hierarchy, he was removed, and the Fascist authorities proclaimed that the Mafia had been defeated. Despite his assault on their brethren, Mussolini had his fans in the New York Mafia, notably Vito Genovese.

The United States used the Italian connection of the American Mafiosi during the invasion of Italy and Sicily in 1943. Lucky Luciano and other members of Mafia, who had been imprisoned during this time in the U.S., provided information for US military intelligence, who used Luciano's influence to ease the way for advancing American troops.[5]

Some mafia analysts, such as the Catanese author Alfio Caruso, argue that the U.S. Office of Strategic Services deliberately allowed the mafia to recover its social and economic position as the "anti-State" in Sicily and that the U.S.-mafia alliance forged in 1943 was the true turning point of mafia history and the foundation of its subsequent 60-year career. Others, such as the Palermitan historian Francesco Renda, have argued that there was no such alliance. Rather, the mafia exploited the chaos of post-fascist Sicily to reconquer its social base. The OSS indeed, in its 1944 "Report on the Problem of Mafia" by the agent W. E. Scotten, pointed to the signs of mafia resurgence and warned of its perils for social order and economic progress.

An alleged additional benefit (from the American perspective) was that many of the Sicilian-Italian Mafiosi were hardline anti-communists. They were therefore seen as valuable allies by the anti-communist Americans, who allegedly used them to root out socialist and communist elements in the American shipping industry, the wartime resistance movements, and in many postwar local and regional governments in areas where the Mafia held sway.[citation needed]

According to drug trade expert Dr Alfred W. McCoy, Luciano was permitted to run his crime network from his jail cell in exchange for his assistance. After the war Luciano was rewarded by being deported to Italy, where he was able to continue his criminal career unhindered. He went to Sicily in 1946 to continue his activities and according to McCoy's landmark 1972 book The Politics of Heroin in South-East Asia, Luciano went on to forge a crucial alliance with the Corsican Mafia, leading to the development of a vast international heroin trafficking network, initially supplied from Turkey and based in Marseille — the so-called "French Connection".

Later, when Turkey began to eliminate its opium production, he used his connections with the Corsicans to open a dialogue with expatriate Corsican mafiosi in South Vietnam. In collaboration with leading American mob bosses including Santo Trafficante Jr., Luciano and his successors, took advantage of the chaotic conditions of the Vietnam War to establish an unassailable supply and distribution base in the "Golden Triangle", which was soon funnelling huge amounts of Asian heroin into the United States, Australia and other countries via the U.S. military.

After Fascism, the Mafia did not become powerful in Italy again until after the country's surrender in the Second World War, and the U.S. occupation. In the 1980s and 1990s, however, a series of internecine "gang wars" led to many prominent Mafia members being murdered, and a new generation of mafiosi has placed more emphasis on "white-collar" criminal activity as opposed to more traditional racketeering enterprises. In reaction to these developments, the Italian press has come up with the phrase Cosa Nuova ("the new thing", a play on Cosa Nostra) to refer to the revamped organization.

Salvatore RiinaThe main split in the Sicilian Mafia at present is between those bosses who have been convicted and are now in jail, chiefly Salvatore 'Totò' Riina and Leoluca Bagarella, and those such as the recently caught capo di tutti capi Bernardo Provenzano, who are on the run, or who have not been indicted. The incarcerated bosses are currently subjected to harsh controls on their contact with the outside world, limiting their ability to run their operations from behind bars under the Italian law 41 bis. Antonino Giuffrè – a close confidant of Provenzano, turned pentito shortly after his capture in 2002 – alleges that in 1993, Cosa Nostra had direct contact with representatives of Silvio Berlusconi while he was planning the birth of Forza Italia.

The deal that he says was alleged to have been made was a repeal of 41 bis, among other anti-Mafia laws in return for electoral deliverances in Sicily. Giuffrè's declarations have not been confirmed. The Italian Parliament, with the support of Forza Italia, extended the enforcement of 41 bis, which was to expire in 2002 but has been prolonged for another four years and extended to other crimes such as terrorism. However, according to one of Italy’s leading magazines, L’Espresso 119 mafiosi – one-fifth of those encarcerated under the 41 bis regime – have been released on an individual basis. [1] The human-rights group Amnesty International has expressed concern that the 41-bis regime could in some circumstances amount to "cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment" for prisoners.

Prominent Sicilian mafiosi

Calogero Vizzini, boss of Villalba, was considered to be one of the most influential Mafia bosses of Sicily after World War II until his death in 1954.

Giuseppe Genco Russo, boss of Mussomeli, considered to be the heir of Calogero Vizzini. *Salvatore "Ciaschiteddu" Greco boss of the Mafia Family in Ciaculli, he was the first "secretary" of the first Sicilian Mafia Commission that was formed somewhere in 1958.

Tommaso Buscetta, the first Sicilian Mafioso to become an informant in 1984. (A predecessor, Leonardo Vitale, who gave himself up to the police in 1973, was judged as suffering from 'mental semi-infirmity', and his evidence led to the conviction of himself and his uncle only.) Generally known as the 'Supergrass', Buscetta's evidence was used to great effect during the Maxi-Trials.

Salvatore Riina, also known as Totò Riina is one of the most infamous members of the Sicilian Mafia. He was nicknamed The Beast, or sometimes The Short One ('U curtu in Sicilian) and ruled the Mafia with an iron hand from the 1980s until his arrest in 1993.

Bernardo Provenzano, successor of Riina at the head of the Corleonesi and a such considered one of the most powerful bosses of the Sicilian Mafia. Provenzano was a fugitive from justice since 1963. He was captured on 11 April 2006 in Sicily.[6] Before capture, authorities have reportedly been 'close' to capturing him for 10 years.

Giovanni 'lo scannacristiani' Brusca, who was involved in the murder of Giovanni Falcone.

Matteo Messina Denaro, considered to be one of the successors of Provenzano.

Salvatore Lo Piccolo, considered to be one of the successors of Provenzano.

Other criminal organizations in Italy

The Sicilian Mafia is organized into cosche (clans) in Sicily; in other regions there exist other similar organisations: 'Ndrangheta in Calabria, Sacra corona unita in Apulia, Camorra in Naples, the Stidda in southern Sicily. Although the different crime empires do business with each other, these are separate and distinct organisations from the Sicilian Mafia. A 2003 Eurispes report on Italian organised crime indicates the possibility that the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta may have superseded the Sicilian Mafia in power and profit.

Mafia in the United States

Mafia groups in the United States first became influential in the New York City area, gradually progressing from small neighborhood operations to citywide and eventually international organizations. The mafia started when a group called "The Black Hand" vandalised Italian (and other immigrant) neighborhoods all around New York city. The Black Hand would attack anyone prosperous in the neighborhood, and usually threaten them with mail. They would sign it with a hand covered in black ink at the bottom of the page (before the theory of fingerprints started, hence the name "blackmail".) As many gangs started, the Italians built a retaliation gang, which eventually exterminated the Black Hand and started doing other crimes than retaliation, such as robbery, which then progressed to murder, kidnappings, and extortion.

The Mafia had eventually expanded to twenty-six crime families nationwide in the major cities of the United States, with the center of organized crime based in New York. After many turf wars, the Five Families ended up dominating New York, named after prominent early members: the Bonanno family, the Colombo family, the Gambino family, the Genovese family, and the Lucchese family. These families held underground conferences with other mafia notables like Al Capone of the Chicago Outfit and Joe Porrello of Cleveland.

Carmine Galante after his gangland executionEach family was ultimately controlled by a Don, who was insulated from actual operations by several layers of authority. According to popular belief, the Don's closest and most trusted advisor was referred to as the consigliere ("counselor" in Italian). In reality, the consigliere was meant to be something of a "hearing officer" who was charged with mediating intra-family disputes. He also takes care of the economic side of the "business". An underboss was possible as well. The "underboss guard" was a position between the consiglieri and underboss, providing tactical information as well as advice to the boss. There were then a number of regimes with a varying number of soldati (lit. "soldiers"), or "made" men, who conducted actual operations. Most recently there have been two new positions in the family leadership, the family messenger and Street Boss. These positions were created by former Genovese leader Vincent Gigante.

Each faction was headed by a caporegime, who reported to the boss. When the boss made a decision, he never issued orders directly to the soldiers who would carry it out, but instead passed instructions down through the chain of command. In this way, the higher levels of the organization were effectively insulated from incrimination if a lower level member should be captured by law enforcement. This structure is depicted in Mario Puzo's famous novel The Godfather.

The initiation ritual emerged from various sources, such as Catholic confraternities and Masonic Lodges in mid-nineteenth century Sicily[7] and has hardly changed to this day. The Chief of Police of Palermo in 1875 reported that the man of honor to be initiated would be led into the presence of a group of bosses and underbosses. One of these men would prick the initiate's arm or hand and tell him to smear the blood onto a sacred image, usually a saint. The oath of loyalty would be taken as the image was burned and scattered, thus symbolising the annihilation of traitors. This was confirmed by the first pentito, Tommaso Buscetta.

A hit, or assassination, of a "made" man had to be preapproved by the leadership of his family, or retaliatory hits would be made, possibly inciting a war. In a state of war, families would go to the mattresses — rent vacant apartments and have a number of soldiers sleeping on mattresses on the floor in shifts, with the others ready at the windows to fire at members of rival families.

The American Mafia eventually became more accommodating of non-Sicilian Italians among the sworn-in membership of "made" men and forged closer associations with gangsters of other nationalities, thus becoming distinct from the original organization in Sicily.

Law enforcement and the Mafia

United States

In the United States, murders of state officials have been rare. In several Mafia families, killing a state authority is strictly forbidden, and even conspiring to commit such a murder is punishable by death. The mobster Dutch Schultz was reportedly killed by his peers out of fear that he would carry out a plan to kill New York City prosecutor Thomas Dewey.

The Mafia began a steep decline in the late-1970s and early 1980s due in part to laws such as the RICO Act, which made it a crime to belong to an organization that performed illegal acts, and to programs such as the witness protection program, followed by a resurgence in the late 1980's, into the 1990's as the Mafia sought out new avenues of revenue. These factors, combined with the modest dissolution of the distinct Italian-American community through death, intermarriage, the lack of continued Italian immigration, and cultural assimilation, resulted in the appearance of a reduced Mafia presence in the United States.

In the mid-20th century, the Mafia was reputed to have infiltrated many labor unions in the United States, notably the Teamsters, whose president Jimmy Hoffa disappeared and is widely rumored to have been killed by the Mafia. In the 1980s, the United States federal government made a determined effort to remove Mafia influence from labor unions.

Today, the Mafia is still the dominant organized crime group in the United States, but its power and influence continues to decline due to aggressive FBI investigations which have led to mob informants, violation of mob rules, family infighting, and death or imprisonment of its top leaders. Recent setbacks include relentless prosecution of the Five Families and arrests of the Chicago Outfit's hierarchy.

According to Selwyn Raab, author of "Five Families: The Rise, Decline, and Resurgence of America's Most Powerful Mafia Empires", after 9/11 the FBI has redirected most of its attention to finding terrorists, which led to a resurgence of Mafia in the U.S.

Italy

Judge Giovanni FalconeIn Italy there has been a long history of police, prosecutors and judges being murdered by the Mafia in an attempt to discourage vigorous policing. The Italian government officials who were assassinated because of their attempts in bringing the Mafia to justice are called Excellent Cadavers.

There is some evidence that in Italy, law enforcement seems to be finally gaining the upper hand over the Mafia organisations, through stronger laws and the breaking down of the "code of silence" or "Omertà". A huge help in fighting the military side of the Mafia has been provided by many so-called pentiti (Mafia members who dissociated for a milder judicial treatment), like Tommaso Buscetta.

In recent decades, one of the most famous figures in Italy in the context of Mafia has been Totò Riina, who ordered the murder of the magistrates/ prosecutors Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino, in 1992.

Recently, former Italian Prime Minister, Giulio Andreotti (Democrazia Cristiana) stood judicially accused of relationships with Mafia, but the case partially collapsed because of the expiry of the statute of limitations. In more detail, the trial court stated that proof of relationships with Mafia were not existing for the period after 1980. On the other hand, the trial court, and the appeal one, stated that his connection with Mafia had been constant and well-documented until the early 80s.

References

1.^ This etymology is based on the books Mafioso by Gaia Servadio, The Sicilian Mafia by Diego Gambetta, and Cosa Nostra by John Dickie (see books).

2.^ Giuseppe Pitrè, 'Usi e costumi, credenze e pregiudizi del popolo siciliano', Palermo 1889

3.^ Excellent Cadavers (1995) Alexander Stille, Page 114, Vintage ISBN 0-679-76863-7

4.^ "The main source of wealth of the island were the large estates of lemon and orange estates. In the bare beginning, the Mafia served as a special kind of protection for the large orange and lemon estates around Palermo." The Sicilian Mafia, from the website Mafia Stars; Library of Mafia & Organised Crime, retrieved 16 April 2006

5.^ "The wartime collaboration of Sicilian-born Salvatore "Lucky" Luciano with the United States Navy may have made the Allied invasion of Sicily smoother than it otherwise would have been, but the Iron Prefect's enforcement of the Duce's laws had already made most mafiosi sympathetic to the American cause, or at least hostile to the Fascist one." The Mafia from bestofsicily.com

6.^ 'Top Mafia boss' caught in Italy

7.^ "Mafia's arcane rituals, and much of the organization's structure, were based largely on those of the Catholic confraternities and even Freemasonry, colored by Sicilian familial traditions and even certain customs associated with military-religious orders of chivalry like the Order of Malta." The Mafia from bestofsicily.com

8.^ "The New Orleans family is famous for its possible involvement in the murder of President John F. Kennedy along with the Dallas, TX faction of LCN. The Oliver Stone movie JFK (Kennedy) focuses on the possibility of a conspiracy and also the Mafia's involvement in the assassination." New Orleans, LA. AmericanMafia.com 26 Mafia Cities - New Orleans, LA. Retrieved on June 19, 2005.

"G" based on above, are you saying the Police in Thailand should be called mafia?

By the way, as mentioned before, you have a disco, you have a higher payout than a beer bar. It could be +++ meaning 10,000 Baht for a Disco to 50,000 Baht per month. No entertainment license it can be even 100,000 Baht per month. That is as highest I have heard of. This is "nothing money" to a disco doing over a 100 million Baht a year in gross sales. So if you do feel they are mafia, the real American or Italian mafia would laugh at the small payout the Police get.

[kiakaha]

see how much trouble bars cause..haha.

[~G~]

"G" based on above, are you saying the Police in Thailand should be called mafia?

By the way, as mentioned before, you have a disco, you have a higher payout than a beer bar. It could be +++ meaning 10,000 Baht for a Disco to 50,000 Baht per month. No entertainment license it can be even 100,000 Baht per month. That is as highest I have heard of. This is "nothing money" to a disco doing over a 100 million Baht a year in gross sales.

Forget the semantics. The issue here, as far as I'm concerned, is whether they pose a real problem for business owners in Thailand or not. You will agree that in the case of Ministry Of Sound they were a real problem, since you indicated the high payments to the police as one of the main reasons the place closed down.

[Sunbelt Asia]

"G" based on above, are you saying the Police in Thailand should be called mafia?

By the way, as mentioned before, you have a disco, you have a higher payout than a beer bar. It could be +++ meaning 10,000 Baht for a Disco to 50,000 Baht per month. No entertainment license it can be even 100,000 Baht per month. That is as highest I have heard of. This is "nothing money" to a disco doing over a 100 million Baht a year in gross sales.

Forget the semantics. The issue here, as far as I'm concerned, is whether they pose a real problem for business owners in Thailand or not. You will agree that in the case of Ministry Of Sound they were a real problem, since you indicated the high payments to the police as one of the main reasons the place closed down.

No I do not agree.

I never said high payment.... just that it was 5 groups. One group which was 191 got just 1,000 Baht per month. It in fact was only 15,000 Baht per month for all 5 groups. (Come to the office, I'll call the ex MD and you can verify this small amount) I listed a long list of reasons why it failed in the post which was...

Number of reasons why it went south...

Franchise Royalty fee was too high. They had to pay 8% royalty

to the UK then 7% Vat to the government on every drink.

It was so high profile. 5 different Police groups wanted money every month. You get a raid and kills your trade. Not much money in having people stand around peeing in a bottle instead of drinking beer. (You are dead meat if one person is carrying drugs or is underage. Lots of stress worrying if your competitor is setting you up. 30 day closure if it happens. )

DJ's prices are a killer. They had to pay $25,000 for one night for a headliner.

Place was so big. People would compare it to the Q Bar and say the Q Bar was packed. Put the same # of people in the MOS and it was a dent. People feed off people.

The VIP lounges looking down on the dance floor didn't work well. Even “important people” want to be part of the action.

The one less hour killed them when it went from 1 a.m. from 2 a.m.. 40% of the night’s trade can be in the last hour.

As you can see $375 a month to the police is nothing compared to $25,000 a night in DJ's and 8% royality which is $10,000 a month and $9,000 a month on VAT.

[Heng]

I do understand Sunbelt's interest in minimizing such rumors though. There's still bills and rent to be paid. One doesn't want potential business owners all thinking that they will have to pay the piper. And that's true as well, not everyone will. It's pretty silly calling it a myth though.

If a bar had to pay the mafia. Then I would scream it from the mountain top that it would be required. We don't hide facts or minimizing rumors. That is how we do business, even if we went bankrupt tomorrow. It will never change; we do business the right way with integrity.

It is a myth till I know of one case. Certainly if someone invested in a bar and it happen. We would get a call “Why wasn't I told?” We have been involved with over 50 bar transfers all over Thailand from 200,000 Baht to 50 million Baht and not one case has it ever been a issue, before or after the business transfer.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

If any of those 50 are on Walking Street in Pattaya, if you could please name them since they have nothing to hide and are obviously legit businesses (and it's information that you readily ask from another poster above), I'd say it's a good bet that they are indeed paying the police special fees (not associated with any red boxes) to operate and not interfere in their businesses. I'd bet that I can even find out the exact/near amounts that are being paid (if the properties happen to be rented from a friend of mine) and the rough terms of the arrangements. These can then be confirmed by random TV members... "hey Chuck, I heard on TV that you need to pay 45,000 a month to CL so they aren't in here arresting your Uzbek 'waitresses' every night." And then it won't be a myth anymore. Of course, I may be wrong, we'll call it a friendly/amusing research project. I personally have no interest in bars or bar ownership so I can indeed say that I have a neutral academic interest (so I won't include a business/integrity 'that's the way we do business' one liner here).

POLICE GET PAID

Do you understand that?

Go back and look in this tread where I said this...

The bottom line to sum this up.

I don't feel any payment is made to any mafia involved in Bars.

Every bar owner I have spoken to, have not been involved with any payment to any mafia.

Payments are made to the police by bar owners. I do feel this is corruption.

Any bar owner I ever talked to, felt this was not corruption, but it was "security" and had no problem with it.

Payments for a beer bar is around 2,000 Baht to the Police.

A regular bar can be from 2,000 Baht to 8,000 Baht per month.

A nightclub can be much higher +++

After hours bar is 100,000 Baht per month

Once again I never said “police were not being paid.” Go back and read the thread. I said no mafia was being paid. As for the police, I would surmise every bar the police are getting something paid to them but as stated it’s a small amount that most bar owners consider cheaper than paying a security guard. The so called “Russian, Italian or whatever mafia” that’s a different story and a myth in Thailand.

Any other questions on the police and the mafia or do I have to go slower?

Yeah, I figured you would avoid the question and go back to the "police" are not "mafia" because they have two different definitions in the dictionary argument and perhaps add in some dramatic bold font. Quite simply (again)... nice and slow... what people refer to as the "mafia" here is simply organized crime. Surely you don't believe there are no police (and again, I'm not saying they all are, and by no means at a part of their everyday duties) here involved in organized crime?

[Sunbelt Asia]

Yeah, I figured you would avoid the question and go back to the "police" are not "mafia" because they have two different definitions in the dictionary argument and perhaps add in some dramatic bold font. Quite simply (again)... nice and slow... what people refer to as the "mafia" here is simply organized crime. Surely you don't believe there are no police (and again, I'm not saying they all are, and by no means at a part of their everyday duties) here involved in organized crime?

Avoid what question? The one that bars on Walking Street pay the police? Most bars do pay the police, if not all the bars.

I don't feel the police that do this should be called "mafia", but it seems you do. I understand your view and you I surmise understand mine "police are police and mafia is mafia”

No matter what you call them, its a small amount that most bar owners have no problem in paying. The police and the bar owners are happy. It is only at Thaivisa we get excited about this issue.

Have a good weekend and see you on the next thread. This one should now be

[Heng]

Avoid what question? The one that bars on Walking Street pay the police? Most bars do pay the police, if not all the bars.

The question that I was asking you to name a few bars that you have done business transfers for on Walking Street that you feel do not pay members of organized crime, so that perhaps I could illustrate a few examples of how they have been taxed by local influential (often police related) figures. For example, not on Walking Street, but nearby, (and perhaps Soi Yensabai business owners may have noticed on this past Wednesday evening), there was an internet shopped filled with uniformed police officers. The reason was that there were half a dozen songs in MP3 format loaded by a customer on one of the computers. Fast forward to the police station and the end result was a call for a 108,000 Baht fine (why the odd amount, I don't know), negotiated down to 70,000 Baht. The police, quite friendly and courteous said along the lines that "sure... we all have MP3s on our computers, if you look here in the station, I'd bet you'd find hundreds of songs (in a quite friendly, unmenacing way mind you). But you're a business. And the property owner. The alternative is prosecution under the law." And it was paid, even with friends and acquaintences of local importance called in. It couldn't be "cleared," (no fine) by the way because the police involved had team members from Bangkok, accompanied by a guy from Grammy, and the local influence (no need to read that in a negative way; it's just 'influence' that is wielded by upper tier business and property owners anywhere in the world: favor bank type situations where we can bend but not blatantly break the law) of my friends usually only apply to the Pattaya police.

I don't feel the police that do this should be called "mafia", but it seems you do. I understand your view and you I surmise understand mine "police are police and mafia is mafia”

Great, we're in agreement here.

No matter what you call them, its a small amount that most bar owners have no problem in paying. The police and the bar owners are happy. It is only at Thaivisa we get excited about this issue.

What's small or large is entirely relative to the individual and business. In the example above, it may or may not be a small amount depending on who you ask. I'd say small (barely a few days work exporting orchids), my friend, she'd say small (her family owns about 2 dozen shophouses and an apartment building on the soi, all rented out; and only runs the net shop for fun).... but not exactly something to be happy with (even though we did have a good laugh about it). In the examples I have in mind involving bars though, the tax is often higher. Yes, some of the figures you mention are in the ballpark, but there are definitely out of the ballpark type cases as well (case by case, not a monthly payment type thing). Yes, of course organized crime/mafia typically does not tax businesses to the point where they go out of business.... that would hardly be an effective business model. You did mention earlier that you can often avoid these taxes by simply playing by the book. Generally true. But maybe you might also be aware that not all bars or any other businesses play by the book either. Some have prostitutes (shock!) working in them. Some have customers and workers high on narcotics (shock!). Plenty of ways for the police/organized crime to tax a business establishment.

Have a good weekend and see you on the next thread. This one should now be

Why would you want to close it? We're just having a discussion (and you don't have to be involved if you don't want to). You have a good week and weekend, too!

[donx]

IMHO, corrupt police are criminals but are not mafia. This is not simply a difference in semantics by an actual difference in the way the two types of criminals are organized. There are situations (e.g. in US history) where police are part of the mafia. But from what I am hearing from both Heng and Sunbelt, I wouldn't call the police asking for payments as part of a mafia organization.

Yes, both are criminal activities. But there is, as I see it, a definite difference. For example, if a bar owner did decide to prohibit illegal activity and payed for the proper licenses, that bar owner wouldn't feel obligated to pay the police anything. However, in the case of the mafia, it doesn't matter how legal the bar owner is. They will still demand the bar owner pay for the privilege of having the mafia not to destroy their business. If the police would act in the same way then I would consider them also to be mafia. If not then they aren't.

[Heng]

IMHO, corrupt police are criminals but are not mafia. This is not simply a difference in semantics by an actual difference in the way the two types of criminals are organized. There are situations (e.g. in US history) where police are part of the mafia. But from what I am hearing from both Heng and Sunbelt, I wouldn't call the police asking for payments as part of a mafia organization.

hi Donx,

IMHO, just because they are organized differently and that their enforcement methods aren't the same, doesn't mean they are not organized criminals (which is how I interpret the definition of "mafia" ; regardless of what uniforms/clothing they wear or what their particular rituals and customs are). The police involvement in organized crime here in some cases mirrors what you base your opinions on from US history. That is, there are non-police organized crime syndicates that employ the police and pay off the police for various services and favors.

At the same time, there are elements of the police here that are an organized crime syndicate unto themselves: in that there are bosses and tiered levels of underlings, just like in any criminal organization. Tribute and spoils are kicked upwards and generally shared by all. The members rarely talk and are cliquish -for example, if you're not a Sampran police academy graduate, and say joined the police force through university, you're generally not welcomed and probably won't advance-.

Yes, both are criminal activities. But there is, as I see it, a definite difference. For example, if a bar owner did decide to prohibit illegal activity and payed for the proper licenses, that bar owner wouldn't feel obligated to pay the police anything. However, in the case of the mafia, it doesn't matter how legal the bar owner is. They will still demand the bar owner pay for the privilege of having the mafia not to destroy their business. If the police would act in the same way then I would consider them also to be mafia. If not then they aren't.

True, there is a difference in modus operandi, however as metioned above, different methods of enforcement/taxation/intimidation, etc. IMO is more of a difference in flavor than of actual substance. Also, in your example above, IMO you're simply comparing the local operating method with your own preset definition of what the operating method of a protection racket should be. I think the police here "tend" to leave folks who aren't doing anything wrong alone for the simple reason that there is an endless supply of folks doing something wrong. And even that's not absolute. For the case of my friend with the net shop, she had never had her business "hit

before. And by local practical standards, she was in fact not doing anything wrong (as evidenced by the fact that no other shops were hit and that the offense in question is hardly a commonly prosecuted legal infraction... but she was probably selected -just our supposition- because it is fairly well known locally that she can easily afford the tax).

[donx]

Heng,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that if I were to buy a bar in Pattaya and I didn't do anything illegal I would most likely not have to pay any criminal element associated with or without the police. There is the possibility that I would be forced to pay criminal police as was the case for your friend with the net shop, but that is not as likely since so many other businesses are operating illegally.

I understand there are police associated criminals that can effectively shutdown the business on trumped up "legal" charges.

My question is are there non-police associated criminals that would demand payment from me for running my bar? This is what I have seen in Taiwan where night clubs had to make payments to non-police associated criminals or their establishments would be ransacked. Do such criminal elements exist in Thailand?