US and Nato troops begin Ukraine military exercise

[Publicus]

It seems Putin wants a war or the Soviet republics handed back to Russia(him) .

He's happy either way.

Is the Russian economy that bad that he needs a distraction of this magnitude?

Huge gamble to say the least.

It takes 2 to tangle, but only one to start a war.

I hope it doesn't come to that,

but at the same time, you cant shy away from it, either.

The alternative is to let Putin do want he wants.

Hopefully the economic sanctions will work.......

The EU should be very concerned.

The dude is nuts

or playing the biggest hand of poker I've ever seen!

Yes it is. And it is not only Russian economy.

Always true.

I share your hopes. But hoping is not enough.

Agree.

Seriouly doubt this.

Anything but nuts. A very shrewd and calculating politician.

Poker? The stakes are too high to call his bluff.

Surely EU should worry more about this game than USA.

And yes, there are other ways to deal with the crisis than arming Ukraine, pushing Russia towards China or calling the bluff.

This is not Cuban crisis at Chruschov times. Everything is very different now.

No it's not the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962.

1) In 1962 the Soviet Russians tried to surreptitiously install nuclear armed missiles in Cuba. Currently the EU, Nato, the U.S. are trying to facilitate the Ukrainian choice to be European instead of Russian. That's a huge difference.

2) In 1962 Pres Kennedy did not invade Cuba despite enormous pressure from the Joint Chiefs of Staff to do so. Currently Putin has Russian military forces in Ukraine in violation of almost everything international, the 1994 Budapest Memorandum in particular, by which Ukraine gave the former Soviet Union nuclear arsenal on its soil to Russia in return of the Russian guarantee to respect Ukraine's borders which Russia has violated 100%.. Now no country will want to quit its nuclear weapons program.

3) One thing RasPutin needs to keep in mind is that after Moscow was forced to withdraw its missiles from Cuba Krushchev was deposed.

4) RasPutin is verbally throwing nuclear weapons at Europe and the West, which is the same atrocious wrong behaviors of the Russian Soviets in their time. Putin is sending nuclear capable bombers in flights to the borders of the U.S. and Canada and to the borders of several other Nato countries of Europe. RasPutin keeps escalating this crisis, which Krushchev and the Soviet Politburo chose not to do. Europeans and Nato countries know that dictators escalate until they are stopped, which is the only to stop egomaniac and megalomaniac wild men.

5) It is 100% vacuous propaganda to spew the line that RasPutin is some sort of master strategist or master global strategic chess player. RasPutin in yet another mad man with a dangerous weapons arsenal and completely unrealistic visions that dance in his head.

[Publicus]

Putin insists it doesn't matter what you or I say about him or about his supporters as long as we know that Vladimir stands for something, and what it is Vlad stands up for or falls down against.

"Vladimir Putin said the tanks that you see rolling through the streets are just part of the closing ceremonies of the Olympics." –David Letterman

"After hearing that he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, Putin said, 'Tell me who the other nominees are — and I will eliminate them.'" –Conan O'Brien

"Putin doesn't know what the troops are doing there. And he has no exit strategy. He got that from us." –David Letterman

"Despite the fact that the Ukraine has been all over the news for the past few weeks, a survey found that 64 percent of U.S. students still couldn't find Ukraine on a map.

Said Vladimir Putin, 'Soon nobody will.'" –Seth Meyers

"The peacemaker is Vladimir Putin. He is going to help us secure the chemical weapons, because if there is one thing you can trust Putin with, it’s poison. " –Bill Maher

Americans should stick to illegal invasions and leave humour to the Brits.

You invite the comment that the standup comedian Neville Chamberlain proved to be quite the clown waving a worthless paper on a wind swept tarmac while declaring "peace in our time."

Maybe this is Obama's Faulklands/Malvinas moment although I'd certainly hope not. Putin doesn't have that kind of reach so he prefers to throw verbal nukes at he much closer Nato..

I anyway have always found English humor to be lame and loud as if loud could compensate for lame, Mr Bean providing a welcome silence.

[BATHIK]

I anyway have always found English humor to be lame and loud

Perhaps that explains the style of your own posts - some people have very different tastes from you but you are not writing for them, you are writing to convince yourself and your faithful audience, not the opposition. With such divergence in tastes you probably shouldn't even try.

"Illegitimi non carborundum" - how do you translate your signature, btw? Wikipedia says it's of British origin and was most certainly an example of British humor at the time.

[Publicus]

Putin has nuclear bomber aircraft flying in to the North American air defense zone and against European countries at their borders too.

Putin is not playing with nuclear weapons. Putin has turned away from the West in general to align himself and Russia with China and the rest of the loser Brics countries that are fast going nowhere, same as the Russian and China economies .

Vladimir Putin is a dangerous Rasputin man and character. Rasputin himself didn't have nuclear weapons to toss around and about, while Putin does have WMD and he keeps getting closer to using a couple of "baby" ones against small Nato countries of eastern Europe and probably Poland also. The Nato doctrine since 1949 always has been clear that an attack on one is an attack on all.

All propaganda aside, neither Washington nor Burssels (Nato, EU) are brandishing nuclear weapons against those with whom they disagree, Kim Jong Un style and fashion. People who support Putin need to declare themselves as rational and sane to contrast themselves against RasPutin and the Russian General Staff of Cold Warriors.

U.S. and Canadian Fighter Jets Intercept 8 Russian Planes

American and Canadian fighter jets scrambled this week to investigate why Russian planes were flying in international airspace west of Alaska — on the same day Ukraine's president addressed lawmakers in Canada and Washington, D.C.

Authorities say two F-22 fighter jets intercepted six Russian military airplanes that neared the western coast of Alaska.

Lt. Col. Michael Jazdyk, a spokesman for the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, says the jets intercepted the planes about 55 nautical miles from the Alaskan coast at about 7 p.m. Pacific time Wednesday. The Russian planes were identified as two IL-78 refueling tankers, two Mig-31 fighter jets and two Bear long-range bombers.

At about 1:30 a.m. Thursday, two Canadian CF-18 fighter jets intercepted two of the long-range bombers about 40 nautical miles off the Canadian coastline. NORAD is a binational American and Canadian command responsible for the air and aerospace defense of North America.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/us-canadian-jets-intercept-8-russian-aircraft/2014/09/19/2c7e56ba-4055-11e4-a430-b82a3e67b762_story.html

Russian fighter planes are running amok over Western Europe

Oleg Nikishin/Getty Images

Russian military aircraft reportedly tangoed with fighter jets of at least two European countries this week.

The British Royal Air Force scrambled jets today after Russian "Bear" bombers were spotted getting too close to British airspace. The U.K.'s Sky News reports the RAF sent up two fighters to identify and deter the planes, which never actually entered British airspace.

Sweden had a similar run-in with Russian military planes on Wednesday. In this case, two Russian "Su-24 attack planes" actually entered Swedish airspace over the island of Öland, Sweden's English-language news site The Local reports. Sweden then scrambled its own fighter jets to intercept the intruders, who peeled off.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/index/268443/speedreads-russian-fighter-planes-are-running-amok-over-western-europe

Those who write for Vladimir Putin need to denounce and renounce his nuclear weapons and nuclear warfare brinksmanship. Putin is only escalating and further escalating crises that he created, which is a predicament all idiot dictators get in to. Ordinary people need to be free and safe from such people as Putin and their egomaniac destructive nature.

In Ukraine there's coup d'etat

Putin is it's mastermind.

Greece economy in default

This must be Putin's fault.

England hit by disastrous floods

Putin's guilty, no doubts.

My pet hamster died today

Mr Putin said 'Hooray'

My car has broken down

Nasty Vlad is smiling at my frown

Putin can be such a booger

He even cheats while playing snooker

When your toilets are clogged

Surely, it's Putin's fault

Opened fridge, the shelves are empty

Mighty Putin's so very crafty

Putin's here, Putin's there

Putin, Putin's everywhere.

The world would not have any problems

If it wasn't for Putin and his sidekick Snowden.

( With apologies to the Poet Laureate!)

The name "Putin" may appear here more times than in all of the posts in the thread, which is of course how one can be (wrongly) confident to have made the point.

Whether the post is intended to be a defense of, ahem, Putin or a criticism of those standing up to, ahem, Putin is irrelevant. The reality is that the post brings an unusual and bizarre focus to itself. One might have done better to count the news headers of the past week to see what all the fuss is about.

RasPutin is now btw in retreat. Perhaps after a while the name won't be before us as much any more and will have passed like the plague eventually passes.

A welcome day indeed that would be, and a time also to seriously address the issues.

[Publicus]

I anyway have always found English humor to be lame and loud

Perhaps that explains the style of your own posts - some people have very different tastes from you but you are not writing for them, you are writing to convince yourself and your faithful audience, not the opposition. With such divergence in tastes you probably shouldn't even try.

"Illegitimi non carborundum" - how do you translate your signature, btw? Wikipedia says it's of British origin and was most certainly an example of British humor at the time.

As I'd stated numerous times over the years I write my posts principally to the visiting readers rather than to the particular poster, or instead of writing to the active posters among the membership.

Members who read but rarely if ever post, and other open minded non-members who visit to read are the people I speak to in my posts.

Anyone who thinks I'm trying to convince dogmatist posters around here would not have any contact with the realities of life. Further, anyone who might think I'm trying to convince myself of my long held and always evolving views, or that I am oriented principally towards those who fundamentally agree with me, are dealing superficially with me and with my posts, missing entirely and completely my concept and style of posting.

Obliviously.

And then there's this.....

If you want a correct Latin translation for "Don't let the bastards grind you down " , you should say as follows:

-“Noli sinere malos te vexare” (literal )

-“Noli sinere te ab improbis opprimi“ (meaning: “Don't stand being oppressed by the bastards/ wicked men”)

-“Noli arrogantium iniurias pati “ (meaning: “Don't bear insults of the bastards/ wicked men”)

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Latin-2145/2010/7/Illegitimus-non-carborundum.htm

The Brits are but one among many nationalities that have used the mangled expression in humorous ways, so one shouldn't be confused by the bastardization of its use. In the U.S. "Illegitimi non carborundum" was popularized by the WWII 4-star General "Vinegar" Joe Stilwell who ordered it up as his desk plate when he was commander of allied forces in Southeast Asia.

Edited by Publicus for spacing.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Publicus

[Publicus]

So it's "Don't let the bastards grind you down", right? Apparently originally British (lame and loud) bastardization of Latin to appeal to less intelligent classes.

Who do you mean by "bastards grinding you down" on this forum? Are you in some kind of holy war against undefined enemies?

As for targets of your posts - thanks for the explanation, but to me it looks like you are preaching to the converted and your efforts have zero or even negative effects on those who disagree with you.

Fundamentally different perception of what constitutes humor could be one reason why you fail to convince the opposition.

Why am I bringing this up? You seem to be very convinced in your presentations but I just can't follow your thought process, the longer I read the more I see it as a flight of delirious mind so I see no point in replying to you in general, let along taking your posts apart point by point. They are also too long to address, one would spend hours untangling what looks, in all honesty, like garbage to me. "Garbage" in a sense I understand and recognize where it comes from but it's no longer usable, just put a lid on it and don't let it stink up my mind.

By all means, continue doing what you are doing, I'm not here to stop you or tell what to write and how, it's just an observation. I guess one could always block user's posts if they bother him too much, there should be such functionality on this board, right?

Please do not take any of the above as an offense, I'm not your enemy, keep up the good work even if not everyone, including me, appreciates it .

"...but to me it looks like you are preaching to the converted and your efforts have zero or even negative effects on those who disagree with you."

Getting off that fixation would probably be the first and most important step you could take in dealing with what otherwise is to you unintelligible or not identifiable.

To try to assist you in the effort, should you choose to make one, I reiterate that I do not post to try to persuade the dogmatists or to try to shake the foundations of the dogmatists. I don't try to convert dogmatists because this is real life in the real world, i.e., dogmatists won't ever be "converted." I write to the visitor who reads with an open mind - it is the visitor to Thai Visa Forums that I try to "convince," not myself, definitely not those who already and fundamentally share my views, and certainly not you.

Stated more directly, I don't give a rat's arse about those who are opposite to me politically, culturally, philosophically. I'm not going to change them no matter what I might try, so I don't bother at all, period.

Have you considered you yourself are focusing your posts on the wrong audience? It is anyway positive you and I should have some dialogue discussing the fact neither knows what the other is on about. That per se is something to build on.

It's also central to recognize and to comprehend that while I am New World, you are Old World, which accounts for fundamental differences of cognition, perception, perspective, not to mention morality. Indeed, I'm still working on trying to figure your thought processes which are not rooted classical political thought and practice, or in modern ones either.

Moreover, you and I originate from radically different cultures and places. You and I have a different native language. So feel free to go your way and I'll go mine. I write to the visitor to TVF, not to the dogmatist poster who is set in his views, beliefs, postings.

[BATHIK]

Assuming everyone who disagrees with you is Old World dogmatist is extremely dogmatic in itself.

And it's not that I don't understand your values or your thought process, I just consider it, errm, primitive, one dimensional, and more of a wishful thinking where you strive to interpret everything in your own biased way, leaving no room to doubts whatsoever. You also appeal to emotions and love to display bravado, like a cowboy, and everything in your posts must have a "happily ever after" Hollywood moment.

You writing to some nameless TVF visitors changes threads from discussion into preaching. Personally, I just scroll right past your long posts, I'm not into reading sermons.

[Publicus]

Assuming everyone who disagrees with you is Old World dogmatist is extremely dogmatic in itself.

And it's not that I don't understand your values or your thought process, I just consider it, errm, primitive, one dimensional, and more of a wishful thinking where you strive to interpret everything in your own biased way, leaving no room to doubts whatsoever. You also appeal to emotions and love to display bravado, like a cowboy, and everything in your posts must have a "happily ever after" Hollywood moment.

You writing to some nameless TVF visitors changes threads from discussion into preaching. Personally, I just scroll right past your long posts, I'm not into reading sermons.

You're definitely a piece of work.

"Assuming everyone who disagrees with you is Old World dogmatist..." That's not what I said I do, nor do I do any such thing. I posted about you - you are Old World and a dogmatist. Many who disagree with me are dogmatists, others are not because they are able to recognize and make some measure of distinctions, to classify, categorize, analyze and often exhibit more that distinguishes them from the dogmatists.

My posts strive for clarity rather than focus on uncertainties.

"You also appeal to emotions and love to display bravado, like a cowboy, and everything in your posts must have a "happily ever after" Hollywood moment."

That was Old World inevitable, i.e., the trite insertion of a (John Wayne?) bravado, glibly heaving up the culturally deficient cowboy cliche, displaying a 40 watt intellect that equates Hollywood to the real every day lives of actual people who are not on the screen reading memorized scripts and acting their parts and roles. Art includes realistic portrayals but it only includes such as a part of the broad mandate of the movie industry to entertain and to make a buck doing it. If you think or believe I am an entertainer then peace be with you because you don't have anything fresh, new or respectable to present.

Mr. Old World.

[Pakboong]

So it's "Don't let the bastards grind you down", right? Apparently originally British (lame and loud) bastardization of Latin to appeal to less intelligent classes.

Who do you mean by "bastards grinding you down" on this forum? Are you in some kind of holy war against undefined enemies?

As for targets of your posts - thanks for the explanation, but to me it looks like you are preaching to the converted and your efforts have zero or even negative effects on those who disagree with you.

Fundamentally different perception of what constitutes humor could be one reason why you fail to convince the opposition.

Why am I bringing this up? You seem to be very convinced in your presentations but I just can't follow your thought process, the longer I read the more I see it as a flight of delirious mind so I see no point in replying to you in general, let along taking your posts apart point by point. They are also too long to address, one would spend hours untangling what looks, in all honesty, like garbage to me. "Garbage" in a sense I understand and recognize where it comes from but it's no longer usable, just put a lid on it and don't let it stink up my mind.

By all means, continue doing what you are doing, I'm not here to stop you or tell what to write and how, it's just an observation. I guess one could always block user's posts if they bother him too much, there should be such functionality on this board, right?

Please do not take any of the above as an offense, I'm not your enemy, keep up the good work even if not everyone, including me, appreciates it .

"...but to me it looks like you are preaching to the converted and your efforts have zero or even negative effects on those who disagree with you."

Getting off that fixation would probably be the first and most important step you could take in dealing with what otherwise is to you unintelligible or not identifiable.

To try to assist you in the effort, should you choose to make one, I reiterate that I do not post to try to persuade the dogmatists or to try to shake the foundations of the dogmatists. I don't try to convert dogmatists because this is real life in the real world, i.e., dogmatists won't ever be "converted." I write to the visitor who reads with an open mind - it is the visitor to Thai Visa Forums that I try to "convince," not myself, definitely not those who already and fundamentally share my views, and certainly not you.

Stated more directly, I don't give a rat's arse about those who are opposite to me politically, culturally, philosophically. I'm not going to change them no matter what I might try, so I don't bother at all, period.

Have you considered you yourself are focusing your posts on the wrong audience? It is anyway positive you and I should have some dialogue discussing the fact neither knows what the other is on about. That per se is something to build on.

It's also central to recognize and to comprehend that while I am New World, you are Old World, which accounts for fundamental differences of cognition, perception, perspective, not to mention morality. Indeed, I'm still working on trying to figure your thought processes which are not rooted classical political thought and practice, or in modern ones either.

Moreover, you and I originate from radically different cultures and places. You and I have a different native language. So feel free to go your way and I'll go mine. I write to the visitor to TVF, not to the dogmatist poster who is set in his views, beliefs, postings.

I find it very odd indeed that in most of your post, the person you are trying to critic is actually yourself. You clearly hold the TV record for answering your own posts.

[craigt3365]

A rude post has been removed from view. Please keep things civil.

[BATHIK]

Even Sydney Morning Herald noticed absurdity of new Ukrainian regime:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/ukraine-picks-motley-group-to-exchange-for-prisoners-20140925-10lqh0.html

[lovetotravel]

Even Sydney Morning Herald noticed absurdity of new Ukrainian regime:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/ukraine-picks-motley-group-to-exchange-for-prisoners-20140925-10lqh0.html

Depends on how you read it. I read the rebels have more prisoners than the government, but are demanding 1 for 1 prisoner exchanges. If that's not possible, what is Kiev suppose to do? Exactly what they are doing.

Overall, it's a sad situation.

[BATHIK]

What will you say if they start catching random people specifically for these exchanges? They already send folks arrested all over the country for things like "distributed leaflets".

Imagine it was a drug deal, one side brings drugs, the other side doesn't have enough cash as demanded by the sellers. What are they supposed to do? Add monopoly money? Exactly as Kiev is doing with fake rebel prisoners.

And Ukrainians really think that culturally they belong to Europe.

[Publicus]

Putin is in full retreat as the ruble becomes a rubble, oil prices plunge, foreign capital continues to flee Russia to the tune of $70 billion this year alone, the capital markets of both the U.S. and the EU are closed, Western energy technology Russia can't produce is included in the latest sanctions, no leaders stand up for Putin or with Putin, while Putin cries out against Obama's air strikes in Syria.

Putin is now shriveled up in a corner of his office in the Kremlin experiencing only present traumatic stress conniptions as his grandiose designs collapse and crash down around him, not the least of which is the Russian economy and its financial sectors.

Putin needs to start to play chess with someone who doesn't always let him win.

[BATHIK]

displaying a 40 watt intellect

TIL that average brain produces only 20-25 watt so it turned out to be a compliment. Thank you.

[BATHIK]

School year finally started in Donbass and one of Donetsk schools was shelled during the very first lesson. No children were hurt but several adults were torn to pieces in front of their eyes.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29439743

At the bus stop shown in BBC video eight people were killed, there are gruesome images and video on the internet of the aftermath.

Ukrainians, as usual, say it was rebels who turned their Grads against their own, duh.

These war crimes will never reach international courts while various "champions of freedom" still believe that international justice is a real thing.

In the meantime there's confusion in the media regarding mass graves reported by a guy who accompanied OSCE mission there. Official statement form OSCE is brief but it's there, and still this guy is discredited like there's no tomorrow. The graves, however, are real, filled with real people, on the territory recently taken from Ukrainians army, or rather their national guard battalions.

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-unspun-osce-probe-murders-gang-rapes-mass-graves/26615896.html

From official OSCE statement:

The ‘military police’ of ‘Donetsk People’s Republic’ (‘DPR’) told the SMM that three unmarked graves allegedly containing multiple bodies had been found; two of them were located in a coal mine Komunar near the village Nyzhnia Krynka (35km north-east of Donetsk) and one inside the village. The SMM proceeded to the scene and saw in the coal mine two areas located fifty metres apart, each containing two human bodies. All four corpses were in the process of decomposition. The SMM also saw eight 9mm Makarov pistol cartridges approximately five meters away from the bodies. Near the road on the edge of the village, the SMM observed a pile of earth resembling a grave which had a stick with a plaque, written in Russian and containing the names (or in one case – initials) of five individuals. The plaque indicated that the individuals died on 27.08.2014. On top of the plaque there was another inscription saying: ‘Died for Putin’s lies’. Neither in the coal mine nor in the village did the SMM see any forensic experts. COMMENT: The SMM cannot provide a forensic assessment of the sites.

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/124216