Immigration raid targets Digital Nomads in Chiang Mai

[Mobi]

The problem here is that there isn't really a visa class for 'digital nomads' or whatever it is you want to call them.

As far as immigration is concerned, these people are just the same as Burmese labourers, Russian tour guides or non degree holder English teachers working without a work permit.

Also, going to 'work' in a co-working space is asking for trouble as none of these foreigners will have work permits or Non-B's because they aren't working for a Thai organisation. If you were 'working' under the radar, so to speak, why make yourself a target by going to such a venue?

Look on Twitter and you'll find loads of these self proclaimed digital nomads and online entruprenurs talking openly about 'working' in Thailand. Then in the next post they're complaining about having to renew their ED-Visa!! It's stupid, all Immigration would have to do is check Twitter and they could easily identify many of these people working illegally.

What Thailand needs to do is update its visa laws and welcome digital nomads - but don't hold your breath that will ever happen!

I couldn't agree more.

Regardless of what Immigration may or may not have said about on-line workers, sheer common sense should have told them that they do such work, quietly, well away from the prying eyes of anybody.

I do feel sorry for anyone caught up in this kind of raid,, but Jeez, don't they have any sense at all? - a bunch of foreigners, on tourist visas or visa exempt stays, sitting at desks, working away on computers in a place advertising itself as a place for digital nomads to 'work...'

[rwdrwdrwd]

I'm just curious... where do so-called digital nomads pay taxes? In the clients' country, their home country, or their server's country?

Depends on where they have their company.. Most would have to start the company in their home country and pay the taxes there.. Anything else would be illegal in most cases (paying no tax at all . or having an "offshore company"). In some cases I guess an offshore company would be legal.. And then tax would be paid in that country.

What a load of nonsense.

1. You don't need to set up a company. You can work as an individual, as most digital nomads do.

2. It is not illegal to get income and not pay tax anywhere. Many people do it and it's completely legal. e.g. For a UK citizen you can leave the UK and become non-resident for tax purposes, so you don't need to pay any tax on your income. Spend 4 months each in 3 different countries and you won't be liable for taxes in any of them. That is the reality. There is nothing at all illegal about it. Depends on the countries and the tax rules, but most countries won't tax you if you're there for less than 6 months. Many won't tax you if income is derived from outside the country.

Should highlight that you would be liable for tax on UK sourced income as a non-resident UK citizen - so far as I'm aware anyway - i could well be wrong but that was my understanding, it certainly adds some complication.

Edited October 1, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[Fairynuff]

Next time I pop into Pun Space I'll be sure to wear my wristband and electronic tag so they'll know I'm just a tourist. If there's any confusion I'll ask my tourist minder to sort it out.

[makescents]

Doesn't look like people have read the update.

Nobody was arrested or deported for working in this co-working space. So this is a tantamount to accepting people working in coworking spaces by Chiang Mai immigration.

It looks like Chiang Mai is getting pretty liberal with allowing foreigners to work as long as it doesn't interfere with the local economy.

[bananafish]

Everyone was let go, immigration had received reports of an office that was employing westerners, that's what they came to find, they found a co-working space, which upon checking that the people were not employed by punspace, they were let go and deemed to be doing nothing wrong.

A win for the nomads.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Huge win if no further action is now taken, people clearly working online for non Thai organizations on Tourist Visas free to go. Interestingly those on ED and VOA working online there weren't even taken to the station if I am reading the report correctly.

Edited October 1, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[ColdSingha]

btw i know people who go to co-working spaces who arent actually working. at a standard 200 baht day with very fast internet, comfy chairs and usually free coffee/tea its a hell of a lot cheaper to hang out than at a coffee shop with no hassle from shop assistants and lots of like minded (read young) individuals around to chat tech all day

much more healthy than staying in a bar all day

Edited October 1, 2014 by ColdSingha

[pinkpanther99]

The problem here is that there isn't really a visa class for 'digital nomads' or whatever it is you want to call them.

As far as immigration is concerned, these people are just the same as Burmese labourers, Russian tour guides or non degree holder English teachers working without a work permit.

Also, going to 'work' in a co-working space is asking for trouble as none of these foreigners will have work permits or Non-B's because they aren't working for a Thai organisation. If you were 'working' under the radar, so to speak, why make yourself a target by going to such a venue?

Look on Twitter and you'll find loads of these self proclaimed digital nomads and online entruprenurs talking openly about 'working' in Thailand. Then in the next post they're complaining about having to renew their ED-Visa!! It's stupid, all Immigration would have to do is check Twitter and they could easily identify many of these people working illegally.

What Thailand needs to do is update its visa laws and welcome digital nomads - but don't hold your breath that will ever happen!

I couldn't agree more.

Regardless of what Immigration may or may not have said about on-line workers, sheer common sense should have told them that they do such work, quietly, well away from the prying eyes of anybody.

I do feel sorry for anyone caught up in this kind of raid,, but Jeez, don't they have any sense at all? - a bunch of foreigners, on tourist visas or visa exempt stays, sitting at desks, working away on computers in a place advertising itself as a place for digital nomads to 'work...'

Agreed.

I'm in support of the Nomads, and wish Thailand would get with the times with regards to how people can work online etc and create some kind of visa/extension for these people.

However, as it stands these people work without a work permit and are probably on tourist/ED visas which prohibits work. Therefore, they work illegally in Thailand

Edited October 1, 2014 by pinkpanther99

[rwdrwdrwd]

btw i know people who go to co-working spaces who arent actually working. at a standard 200 baht day with very fast internet, comfy chairs and usually free coffee/tea its a hell of a lot cheaper to hang out than at a coffee shop with no hassle from shop assistants and lots of like minded (read young) individuals around to chat tech all day

much more healthy than staying in a bar all day

It would be interesting to get confirmation from someone arrested that they stated they were indeed working, but not for Thai companies and not being paid in Thailand.

[hobz]

I'm just curious... where do so-called digital nomads pay taxes? In the clients' country, their home country, or their server's country?

Depends on where they have their company.. Most would have to start the company in their home country and pay the taxes there.. Anything else would be illegal in most cases (paying no tax at all . or having an "offshore company"). In some cases I guess an offshore company would be legal.. And then tax would be paid in that country.

What a load of nonsense.

1. You don't need to set up a company. You can work as an individual, as most digital nomads do.

2. It is not illegal to get income and not pay tax anywhere. Many people do it and it's completely legal. e.g. For a UK citizen you can leave the UK and become non-resident for tax purposes, so you don't need to pay any tax on your income. Spend 4 months each in 3 different countries and you won't be liable for taxes in any of them. That is the reality. There is nothing at all illegal about it. Depends on the countries and the tax rules, but most countries won't tax you if you're there for less than 6 months. Many won't tax you if income is derived from outside the country.

1. In my home country Sweden people need to register as a company.. I assume it's the same in most countries.. Even if the company is only a 1 person company.

2. Didn't know that... Seems like Sweden is insane as usual... can i become a UK resident?

[rwdrwdrwd]

Agreed.

I'm in support of the Nomads, and wish Thailand would get with the times with regards to how people can work online etc and create some kind of visa/extension for these people.

However, as it stands these people work without a work permit and are probably on tourist/ED visas which prohibits work. Therefore, they work illegally in Thailand

If they were considered to be 'working in Thailand', and therefore acting illegally, they would have been charged wouldn't they? Not released. Feels to me that this indicates working online for foreign entities and being paid abroad is not currently being considered as 'working in Thailand'.

Edited October 1, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[Asiantravel]

In reading the full blog posting, it seems that everyone who could produce a passport with a valid visa or current visa-exempt status was left alone. And perhaps a misunderstanding that the people were working (employed by) PunSpace.

So, I wonder if it's really an exercise in harassing digital nomads, or just an opportunity to check visa status for a group of foreigners who are congregated together. I wonder what's next? Will they storm the next Expats Ladies Lunch and ask to see that we all have our passports with valid retirement visas?

I now carry my passport with me at all times. Yeah, I know it's a hassle. I put it in a plastic bag and hopefully it won't get stolen or trashed out.

This is the latest incident in the long running controversy regarding the question: do foreigners have to carry their passports with them at all times?

It would be nice to know whether or not a law exists that says so.

I wish they would make their minds up once and for all! Then what about this statement of reassurance, foreigners received on 31 July

BANGKOK:-- [thaivisa.com] After the confusion surrounding the news that all foreigners in Thailand are required to carry their passport with them at all times, Thaivisa.com has today obtained official clarification on this matter.

Earlier this afternoon, Thaivisa.com spoke to Deputy Commander and Police Colonel Voravat Amornvivat, a senior official at Immigration headquarters in Bangkok.

Deputy Commander Voravat wanted to reassure the expat community in Thailand about the current situation.

He told Thaivsia.com that information in an article published by The Nation on 31 July 2014, was incorrect.

Deputy Commander Voravat confirmed that foreign tourists and expats do not need to carry their passports with them at all times.

He said that tourists can of course leave their passports locked in their hotel safe and enjoy their holiday in Thailand without worrying about the need to carry their original passport.

Deputy Commander Voravat also said that for expats living here, a Thai driving license or photocopy of your passport can be used as a form of identification.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/747736-no-need-to-worry-says-bangkok-immigration-commander/

[alexanderkaufman]

I thought I read somewhere that being a digital nomad was kind of kind of kind of OK to do.

[ColdSingha]

I thought I read somewhere that being a digital nomad was kind of kind of kind of OK to do.

and appears to still be ok to do as everyone released either that or there was a giant misunderstanding between "lots of foreigners working AT" and "lots of foreigners working FOR"

Edited October 1, 2014 by ColdSingha

[balo]

If you're really a digital nomad in Thailand you're working online from your own home , not a public place, that is just plain stupid.

Yes I work from my own home , come and get me next time I send an e-mail to Europe...

[DaddyWarbucks]

They need armed police to check passports?

Absolutely, you don't know what kind of desperate reaction might occur in a raid

You're being ironic aren't you?

If not, that's an excellent justification for police state tactics.

Get real... this was a congregation of geeks tapping away at their keyboards, not a meeting between the Skulls and the Crypts.

[nikster]

Everyone was let go, immigration had received reports of an office that was employing westerners, that's what they came to find, they found a co-working space, which upon checking that the people were not employed by punspace, they were let go and deemed to be doing nothing wrong.

A win for the nomads.

Indeed it looks like that.

The situation right now is that it's OK to work as long as all income is foreign, customers are foreign, and the whole thing has nothing to do with Thailand.

Clearly TiT and this policy could change at any moment. It's just unclear what would be the benefit of going after the digital nomads. They'd all leave and set up shop in neighboring countries, or, alternatively, they'd hide in their condos "playing" on the internet all day and honestly nobody could prove they're working to earn a living.

As to why they can stay here a long and have money coming in, there's many forms of passive income one might have - pensions, rich parents, trust fund, rental income, etc.

I trust that if immigration and / or the Thai government ever wants to benefit from the digital nomads - and I honestly think there aren't enough to make that worth anyone's time at the moment - then they would create a new legal visa for just this case, and make everyone pay for it. The Thai government doesn't benefit from kicking people out randomly, or from incarcerating them - to the contrary.

If you're taking jobs from Thais, or you're working here and not paying taxes, that's the government's business. But if you're a digital nomad who at any time could pack up and move to Malaysia / Cambodia / Indonesia or wherever - they won't care.

[hobz]

Please provide a link to the regulation in Thai law please (Thai language is OK)

Find it yourself.

Or just read the update to the OP, where they talk about the fact that Immigration waived the fine for the folks nabbed in the PunSpace raid..

It's amazing that people in this forum think nothing of making demands on people they don't know.

If you can't find it, that's not my problem.

It has been discussed multiple times ...

From what I understand the law requires that aliens must be able to produce a passport. not have it on them..

So if you don't have it on you, you must be able to produce it.. This means in reality that you will wait in the police station while someone brings the passport from your hotel room or wherever you claim it is...

[j0rd]

I thought I read somewhere that being a digital nomad was kind of kind of kind of OK to do.

http://www.chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=4366

What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

This was the response by Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration when asked directly about "people working online" on Aug 21, 2014

[hobz]

I thought I read somewhere that being a digital nomad was kind of kind of kind of OK to do.

http://www.chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=4366

What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

This was the response by Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration when asked directly about "people working online" on Aug 21, 2014

I don't recall it being so clear.. I think after that statement he said something like "but if you plan to stay for a long time in thailand you need the proper visa" .... Add to that that ALL OTHER officials have always said that people working online need to have a work permit .. and thus the confusion... but I like where this is going .. obviously it seems like they let everyone go... we will see if the people making complaints keeps calling and immigration changes their mind and goes in and takes all the people sitting there working on ed / tourist visa...

[Asiantravel]

Please provide a link to the regulation in Thai law please (Thai language is OK)

Find it yourself.

Or just read the update to the OP, where they talk about the fact that Immigration waived the fine for the folks nabbed in the PunSpace raid..

It's amazing that people in this forum think nothing of making demands on people they don't know.

If you can't find it, that's not my problem.

It has been discussed multiple times ...

From what I understand the law requires that aliens must be able to produce a passport. not have it on them..

So if you don't have it on you, you must be able to produce it.. This means in reality that you will wait in the police station while someone brings the passport from your hotel room or wherever you claim it is...

Deputy Commander Voravat confirmed that foreign tourists and expats do not need to carry their passports with them at all times.

“Making all foreigners in Thailand carry their original passports with them would be very difficult.”Deputy Commander Voravat also said that for expats living here, a Thai driving license or photocopy of your passport can be used as a form of identification.

However, if Immigration Police suspect an individual to be overstaying in Thailand or being involved in illegal activity, then the individual would be required to produce their original passport promptly.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Tropicalevo]

They need armed police to check passports?

I have never seen a policemen here who is not armed.

[yellowboat]

Many digital nomads and those who just by goods in Thailand have been given the I - O in their passport at the airport. The government thinks people cannot live without Thailand. We shall see.

Saigon is better for those doing that sort of work. Sadly there are capable people in Thailand, but this visa nonsense is making things too hard.

[rwdrwdrwd]

I don't recall it being so clear.. I think after that statement he said something like "but if you plan to stay for a long time in thailand you need the proper visa" .... Add to that that ALL OTHER officials have always said that people working online need to have a work permit .. and thus the confusion... but I like where this is going .. obviously it seems like they let everyone go... we will see if the people making complaints keeps calling and immigration changes their mind and goes in and takes all the people sitting there working on ed / tourist visa...

Can you provide sources for any of these statements by other officials, bacause I have never seen one regarding people working online for foreign companies whatsoever aside from the recent one by the Chiang Mai official.

Edited October 1, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[toooa]

I would question whether they know anything at all about basic economics if this is the way they protect the country....as usual pure genius...

[rwdrwdrwd]

Not sure how preventing people who have the ability to move, along with their work, elsewhere (and then spend their money there) from doing so in Thailand would be better economically for the country.

If they legislate and prosecute digital nomads, or enforce that they must start a Thai co, employ Thais, get a WP and Non Imm Visa, then they will simply base themselves elsewhere. It's not like they are logistically tied to the place in any manner, Thailand has shoddy internet connections, it just happens to be a comfortable base at present due to the weather, cost of living and lifestyle. There are many other places where these are present to move on to.

Edited October 1, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[yellowboat]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753621-digital-nomad-online-workers-permission/

[ColdSingha]

I thought I read somewhere that being a digital nomad was kind of kind of kind of OK to do.

http://www.chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=4366

What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

This was the response by Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration when asked directly about "people working online" on Aug 21, 2014

I don't recall it being so clear.. I think after that statement he said something like "but if you plan to stay for a long time in thailand you need the proper visa" .... Add to that that ALL OTHER officials have always said that people working online need to have a work permit .. and thus the confusion... but I like where this is going .. obviously it seems like they let everyone go... we will see if the people making complaints keeps calling and immigration changes their mind and goes in and takes all the people sitting there working on ed / tourist visa...

do you have sources/links for all the other officials quotes as i can't find them?

[Greenhill]

I'm just curious... where do so-called digital nomads pay taxes? In the clients' country, their home country, or their server's country?

Depends on where they have their company.. Most would have to start the company in their home country and pay the taxes there.. Anything else would be illegal in most cases (paying no tax at all . or having an "offshore company"). In some cases I guess an offshore company would be legal.. And then tax would be paid in that country.

What a load of nonsense.

1. You don't need to set up a company. You can work as an individual, as most digital nomads do.

2. It is not illegal to get income and not pay tax anywhere. Many people do it and it's completely legal. e.g. For a UK citizen you can leave the UK and become non-resident for tax purposes, so you don't need to pay any tax on your income. Spend 4 months each in 3 different countries and you won't be liable for taxes in any of them. That is the reality. There is nothing at all illegal about it. Depends on the countries and the tax rules, but most countries won't tax you if you're there for less than 6 months. Many won't tax you if income is derived from outside the country.

Should highlight that you would be liable for tax on UK sourced income as a non-resident UK citizen - so far as I'm aware anyway - i could well be wrong but that was my understanding, it certainly adds some complication.

You are correct. If you have a UK passport and even if you reside outside of the UK, you are liable to pay UK income tax on ALL your UK-generated income, which is over your tax-free allowance!

[hobz]

I don't recall it being so clear.. I think after that statement he said something like "but if you plan to stay for a long time in thailand you need the proper visa" .... Add to that that ALL OTHER officials have always said that people working online need to have a work permit .. and thus the confusion... but I like where this is going .. obviously it seems like they let everyone go... we will see if the people making complaints keeps calling and immigration changes their mind and goes in and takes all the people sitting there working on ed / tourist visa...

Can you provide sources for any of these statements by other officials, bacause I have never seen one regarding people working online for foreign companies whatsoever aside from the recent one by the Chiang Mai official.

Just search the forums for "work online work permit" and you will find like 100 threads that all say you need a work permit if you work online.. Including reply from the thaivisa lawyers saying the exact same thing..

I went back and looked at the august 20 clarification of visa rules where chiang mai immigration mentioned digital nomads.. and I don't recall it being so clear.. but it's super clear that he said it's ok to be a digital nomad on tourist visa... I think i should go to bed now.. my memory is obviously messed and i'm sorry for spreading misinformation.. Not at all what I intended.. I honestly remembered his statement differently... I will check my facts first next time..