Landlord secretly sold the house I've been renting for 8 yrs. - what now?

[mogo51]

As advised by others in this forum MOVE - TIT unfortunately. Rental market at the current time is very much in your favour. If you are looking for a house in East Pattaya, I have one for rent.

[cherrylee2512]

I just got a surprise visit from a person who claims to be the new owner of the house that I've been renting for more than eight years (without a written contract but trouble-free).

He produced documents showing that he signed a sell/buy contract with my former Landlord some 18 months(!) ago. Last month (September 2014), my Landlord asked for permission for some bank officials to enter her property for an assessment of the estate's value in order to "refinance" her mortgage. Getting suspicious, I asked her if she was going to sell her house. She said no. I also asked her if she was respecting our contract and she said yes: "don't worry, no change, everything the same like before".

It now turned out that she sold the house, without ever telling me. There was no mention of my contract in any of the documents confirming the transfer of ownership. Because the old owner did not inform me of the changes, I've already paid my rent for October to her account, on 1st of the month as usual.

The new owner wants me to pay my rent into his bank-account. He declines any obligation regarding my old contract and wants me to sign a new, written one and less favorable than my former agreement, i.e. a steep rise in the monthly rent and a substantial safety deposit. He grants me a grace-period until 31st December to get things done...

The whole story sounds so absurd that I start smelling something fishy behind the scene. Tax evasion, maybe? I can of course prove that I always paid my rent in due time, totaling an amount of several hundred-thousand baht.

What rights (if any) do I have in this situation? Is the new owner in any way bound to respect my former contract? What is your advice?

sounds as if the owner did a morgage on the house with a money lender and didnt repay it so they are taking it. me personally if they were putting the rent up id move somewhere new, just because they prob were told by the owner that they had a long term tennant who would stay there when they did the morgage (normal) id throw it back in their face and not take it. the original owner prob stopped paying interest to the lender etc... so they want your income

[recom273]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it?

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud.

I believe that's what happened in my case...

Im in the same boat, no contract after the first year - the landlord attempted to sell the house, we got a phone call saying he wanted to show people around one day, we said fair enough, just call first, 9.10 PM about 30 mins after he first called, he shows up with some clients. This is the amount of respect you earn for paying your rent every month on time for 4 years ..

Does anyone really think that contracts protect you from this behaviour in Thailand ?

Maybe like us, we love our rented house and you don't want to go to the expense and time of moving to a new place. Depending on where you live, like you say, you continual payment of rent in the past may help you reason with him. We threatened to move out after our LL failed to sell the house, and he chilled out after we pointed to the house next door, which has been occupied ( by yabba dealers and wife beaters ) for only 5 months out of a year and a half.

[cherrylee2512]

The new owner has owned the house for 18 months and is just now asking for rent?

The security deposit you gave the original owner should have transferred to the new owner so if you decide to stay, that amount should be deducted from what he wants now

exactly thata why makes me think they got a morgage 18 months ago with a money lender breached the contract so it became the lenders they must have stopped paying interest on loan

[Balance]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it?

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud.

I believe that's what happened in my case...

If your lease did not have an automatic renewal clause, then when it terminated you were de facto a month to month renter and as such probably have very few, if any rights. You could go see a lawyer, but right now there is a big glut of rentals on the market, here in CM at least. You are likely to get a nicer house for less money. I would get a letter from the previous owner about your sterling character and the fact that you pay the rent and take care of the property.

We recently were informed that the owner of our place for the past three years was going to put it on the market. She lives in BKK, but her younger sister looks after this and 2-3 additional houses she owns. We have 7 months left on a two year lease. My understanding is that the new owner would be obligated to buy us out of the lease or honor it. Turns out the owner is selling it to her sister, so no problem and younger sister wants a longer term year lease when it expires, at the same rent.

[Farma]

The new owner has owned the house for 18 months and is just now asking for rent?

The security deposit you gave the original owner should have transferred to the new owner so if you decide to stay, that amount should be deducted from what he wants now

exactly thata why makes me think they got a morgage 18 months ago with a money lender breached the contract so it became the lenders they must have stopped paying interest on loan

Or

As I've seen my wife, family and friends do. The sale agreement was for the buyer to purchase the property over a period of time by installments. At the end of the agreed period with all funds transferred the seller transfers the property into the buyers name. The negates the need for the buyer to obtain bank finance.

Depending on how the agreement was written, it could also explain why the rent was paid to the original owner rather than the new owner during that period.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Farma

[kinmaew]

The beautiful thing about renting in Thailand is that you can leave at your option. Threaten to leave unless you get credit for what you have already paid. You are a long termer and new owner knows that if they are smart they will keep you happy.

[stgrhe]

OP

1) You don't have a contract.

2) Even if you have had a contract it would be void unless it had been duly registered at the Land Office. This because your rental time exceeded three years.

3) The new owner can ask you to vacate the premises immediately unless you agree on terms.

4) Ensure you allways have a correctly worded contract or find another place.

[oneday]

Your biggest bargaining point here is you are a good renter. Something landlords want more than anything. It puts you in a good position Good luck

I really don't think this holds for many Thai people. Many Thai people are just too greedy and just can't see the logic in having a good renter as many falang do. I had a friend who moved out because the landlord wanted him to pay for a broken water pump...he even agreed to pay for half the cost. For the cost of the pump it was far more logical and cost effective to pay for a new pump or even half the cost and keep the good renter rather than lose him and yet she just let him move out of pure Thai pigheadedness. Thais do not think like we do. Even though many Thai people will hold the renter responsible for repairs this is not the law in Thailand. It is just how many Thais do business.

Secondly, the way I read the OP's post he was paying money into the old owners account for the entire 18 month period he says the new owner actually owned the house. Something sounds wrong on this point unless it was factored into the purchase of the house somehow.

As for advice, I'd to do what someone else said. Negotiate for the best deal you can get and if is not to your liking then you will need to find another place. Yes, it's a huge hassle, but I don't see anything else you can do. And as another has said I think you are lucky the new owner is giving you until Dec 31 to sort it all out.

Good luck.

[KIWIBATCH]

...verbal contract with a thai landlord..... ..or any landlord for that matter...!!!

[georgemandm]

Hi just move out what do you care it will not get rented out that easy so move and let the new landlord sit on it not is if you have no more homes to rent in thailand I am a landlord back home in Australia and you what to See the sh?t I have to put up with when I need to get my home back .

[rjcampbe]

If the sale was finalized 18 months ago, then which party had the responsibility to notify the OP? The old or new landlord?

Also, had the OP not been making payments to the old landlord/owner for these past 18 months? Why didn't the new owner speak up long ago asking for his rent money? Was the old owner forwarding these monthly payments to the new owner these past 18 months? Then one might wonder if the old and new owner are not family or friends to share business like this?

Thanks

Thank you very much for sharing your opinion. I think you analyzed the situation pretty well. It appears that the old owner was under pressure to sell her property due to huge debt in her family. The new owner seized the opportunity to buy the property for a bargain. The old owner forwarded my monthly payments in the past 18 months (without my knowledge) to the new owner. And you're also right in assuming that the old and the new owner are "friends to share business like this".

So the remaining question is how can this knowledge put you in a better position to negotiate ;-)

Op has absolutely no position to be able to negoitate. Previous owner did absolutely nothing wrong as it was not necessary to discuss his personal business as to selling the property.

Once sold ...new owner had no problem accepting the rent from the old owner paid by you and AGAIN ...none of your business....It was between them.

As noted earlier ....the ONLY contract you had with the previous owner was "oral".. This does not bind the new owner. Under western law (US), new owner under an oral month to month tenancy (which is what you have here) would only be required to give you 30 days notice ....(ie ...30 day notice of increase in rent, 30 day notice to vacate,,,,etc.) New owner here is being rather generous in allowing you until Dec. to decide what you want to do.....Vacate or Sign new lease.

Negoitate???? you are not in a strong position AT ALL to negoitate anything! You could possibly talk to the new owner (your new landlord) in a civil manner explaining that you think the rent increase is out of line (show him comparables), that you are a good tenant (as shown by your previous 8 years) etc....and ask him to only raise the rent a reasonable amount.

Otherwise ....MOVE

My first comment is that I'm surprised that anyone would believe that a handshake and an oral contract are worth a damn anywhere anymore, let alone in Thailand. I believe in doing business the old fashioned honest way with people of integrity, backed up by a contract that documents the agreement and provides protections in the event of breaches. That is just good business.

However, I am posting because I disagree with beachproperty's last comment... I think if you still have a good relationship (ie. things have not gotten emotional with any of the parties) you do have room to negotiate...

You didn't say specifically where the house is located... but in many parts of the country, there is a glut of available housing on the market and getting tenants, let alone good reliable tenants, is very hard to do. I would suggest you look into alternate housing options in the area and based on what you find, make a reasonable counter offer to the new owner. Be clear, but courteous, and emphasize your long history of being a trouble free tenant who pays on time. Any info you can glean on the vacancy rates and vacancy duration of comparable properties would be helpful in making you case... And make it understood that if you can't come to terms you both can accept, you will vacate. (You have to be prepared to move if it comes to that...)

In my case, I negotiated a substantial rent reduction when my old lease was expiring because of a new condo building being constructed next door... I work at home and it is very inconvenient for me to deal with the noise... I explained to my landlord that I like the place and didn't want to move, but I also had a big issue with the noise. As my lease was coming to an end, I explained that if I was going to pay the "normal" rate for rent, I could move somewhere else without the noise... I told her that if I could reduce the rent, I would tough it out and stay. (And SHE knew that she would never get anyone to move into this house at the rate she wanted with that construction going on next door... so her choice was 24 months empty or drop my rent 8k / month. She chose the latter and we agreed to a reduction until the building is complete.)

She is happy and so am I. (And, by the way, all this was stipulated in the new lease.)

I suggest you try something similar... But don't go at them with a discussion about verbal contracts and rights... that's not going to help in my opinion.

[Deez]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it?

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud.

I believe that's what happened in my case...

You do know what country your in right?

[dotpoom]

In your opening remarks you state you do not have a written contract.....but from then on you seem to place a lot of emphasis on your "contract". I hope I'm wrong but I doubt if a verbal contract would amount to anything in this case.Good luck though.

[Bernard Flint]

you have no contract, the owner can do what they like.

sIR

UNFORUNATELY i have to agree. If the rent was fair and no increases for 8 years WITHOUT a contract then the OP has had a good deal. Depends how much the rent has gone up, if the new owner is prepared to give a 12 month contract, or more, then another positive.

I do agree that the new owner should have introduced himself, he says 18 months ownership by the new landlord/owner.

[chingching]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

Without a written contract, you have NO contract. (Not just Thailand, U.S.A. also) Your present and future ( or past and present) landlord owes you nothing.

[Nemesis7]

Eight years without any written contract??? And as you said went trouble free.

What else do you want ?? You are a lucky person and be thankful to your landlord. She has been away too kind.

No, she doesn't have to inform you if she wants to sell her property, it's her property and remember there is no contract. What did you expect , she would charge the same rent forever or just because you rented for 8 years, that gives you any right ?? There is no written contract, and you can not do anything legally.

It's time to find a new place.

Seems the new landlord won't give you scope beyond the specified time.

Best of luck.

[mercman24]

QUITE obvious, house not sold, has sent one of the relatives round to "bump" up the rent, lol !!

[thhMan]

Tax Evasion... are you daft?

The new owner has continued to allow the place to be rented.

Has your rent gone up at all in the past few years

Has the value of the property gone up, most probably and the rent is worked out on that value, so the mortgage can be paid.

Seriously, what a dingbat. You had it fine for so long and now whining that you may need to pay the actual rental cost of the place.

[Nuddy]

The OP has been let down as he trusted the owner to honour the verbal agreement.

These types of agreement are only good were the integrity of the persons making the agreement is also good.

I too used to trust what people said here in Thailand but after many letdowns I now look at things differently.

My recommendation is to negotiate with the new owner but do your research first like find out what comparable places are available and what are the rents on them.

[2fishin2]

First YOU DONT HAVE A LEASE! With that being said,, why do you think you have any sayso whatsoever in anything? This is Thailand man! Heck even with a good paper legal lease people dont honor them! Any you have been here for 8 years and still dont understand that simple fact?? SMH! And why in the worry do you think the old landlord had to tell or explain anything to you about the house sell? Its not your business! You are lucky the new owner has given you 3 months to get your poop together! Dont like what they offer, do a counter offer. If they dont accept, move and quit whining. Sheesh

[12DrinkMore]

You have an eight year contract, but not in written form. Under Thai laws a contract is enforceable for more than three years only if it is in written form and registered. So you have nothing in your hands now. Details at https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20140925020252-11220814-black-magic-in-thailand

Good link, thanks.

[realenglish1]

This is really easy Call the old owner Tell her you made a mistake and paid her the rent instead of the new owner. Tell her you are pissed and then tell ask her to give you the funds back. She will obviously say no She was scamming you So then say OK

No problem In the meantime I will let the tax department know you have been getting this money and Tell her you hope she declared i

She did not

She will then relent and give you the money

Done

[beachproperty]

This is really easy Call the old owner Tell her you made a mistake and paid her the rent instead of the new owner. Tell her you are pissed and then tell ask her to give you the funds back. She will obviously say no She was scamming you So then say OK

No problem In the meantime I will let the tax department know you have been getting this money and Tell her you hope she declared i

She did not

She will then relent and give you the money

Done

Extortion is what it is! and it's a crime! OP if you listen to this ##### you will have more problems than you could ever imagine. Your a farang, the owner (or past owner) is Thai. The law is on their side. Negoitate or Move. EASY!

[maxjay]

2beornot2be wrote:

I just got a surprise visit from a person who claims to be the new owner of the house that I've been renting for more than eight years (without a written contract but trouble-free).

He produced documents showing that he signed a sell/buy contract with my former Landlord some 18 months(!) ago. Last month (September 2014), my Landlord asked for permission for some bank officials to enter her property for an assessment of the estate's value in order to "refinance" her mortgage. Getting suspicious, I asked her if she was going to sell her house. She said no. I also asked her if she was respecting our contract and she said yes: "don't worry, no change, everything the same like before".

It now turned out that she sold the house, without ever telling me. There was no mention of my contract in any of the documents confirming the transfer of ownership. Because the old owner did not inform me of the changes, I've already paid my rent for October to her account, on 1st of the month as usual.

The new owner wants me to pay my rent into his bank-account. He declines any obligation regarding my old contract and wants me to sign a new, written one and less favorable than my former agreement, i.e. a steep rise in the monthly rent and a substantial safety deposit. He grants me a grace-period until 31st December to get things done...

The whole story sounds so absurd that I start smelling something fishy behind the scene. Tax evasion, maybe? I can of course prove that I always paid my rent in due time, totaling an amount of several hundred-thousand baht.

What rights (if any) do I have in this situation? Is the new owner in any way bound to respect my former contract? What is your advice?

2beornot2be, accept things or move on.

However, you really haven't been specific in a few areas of your post.

I have a few questions:

How much per month was your rent? How much is it being increased to? Specifically, what is a "steep rise"?

You wrote you've rented for 8 years (96 months), paid a rental amount of "several hundred thousand baht"? Wow! When I did the math it came out 2,100 baht per month. Is that correct?

2beornot2be, not trying to give you a hard time, but something "smells fishy" with your post.

But, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.... Eight years is a long time, obviously you are happy with the house, the location, etc.?

I don't think you have any legal recourse. Even if you do, do you really want to live somewhere where you have been in a legal altercation with the owner? Sometimes in Thailand, winning is actually losing. Try to come to some mutual agreement with the new owner.

IMO, moving is one big pain in the butt, especially after 8 years.

[jaywalker]

Why in the world would you even think, without a lease, that the landlord has to inform you of anything

First: It's a question of good manners, isn't it?

Second: Talking open and fair could help to avoid a lot of problems and/or misunderstandings.

Third: Even without a written lease-contract, you have in fact a contract with certain mutual rights and obligations.

For instance: The Landlord can not just end that contract at his own will.

If he wants you to move out and you refuse, he needs to get a court order.

He might not want to do that in order to avoid an investigation into tax fraud.

I believe that's what happened in my case...

I guess your brain is still in nanny state mode.

In Thailand there are no "the renter is always right laws", even if you have a legal contract, and you may consider yourself lucky that there hasn't knocked a bouncer on on your door yet.

Edit: realised that I was talking to the OP

If he were Thai he'd probably get squatter's rights.

I'd get a new place lined up. The BIB will toss a farang out on his ear........Unless there's a brown envelope exchanged.

[KittenKong]

This is really easy Call the old owner Tell her you made a mistake and paid her the rent instead of the new owner. Tell her you are pissed and then tell ask her to give you the funds back. She will obviously say no She was scamming you So then say OK

No problem In the meantime I will let the tax department know you have been getting this money and Tell her you hope she declared i

She did not

She will then relent and give you the money

Done

Extortion is what it is! and it's a crime! OP if you listen to this ##### you will have more problems than you could ever imagine. Your a farang, the owner (or past owner) is Thai. The law is on their side. Negoitate or Move. EASY!

Attempting to obtain money that you are rightfully owed is not extortion. The OP paid the rent in good faith to the ex-owner who was clearly deliberately out to defraud him. He is due a refund of his final rent payment and deposit (if any), and any legal means are good to this end. Denouncing tax fraud is legal.

As for the new owner, he can charge what he likes (with due notice) and if the OP doesn't want to pay it then he can move.

Edited October 10, 2014 by KittenKong

[mikehock]

8

You say you don't have a contract and then ask if the new owner has to respect it. The answer is that there is not contract to respect. He's given yo a fair amount of time to sort things out, so you have the choice to stay or leave.

Fair enough and I am not complaining! Laymen often don't understand that there can be a contract between two parties even if its not written on a piece of paper. That is certainly true in my case. So I never said that I didn't have a contract - quite the contrary! I am just interested to know whether such a contract automatically ends at the moment of a legal transfer of ownership and if a landlord needs to inform the tenant of such change.

You say that you don't have a written contract.Your not a layman so you should know that a verbal contract probably disputed by the other party isn't going to be valid when ownership changes..

Suggest even though your not a layman. ..you get local legal advice

Good luck

[beachproperty]

This is really easy Call the old owner Tell her you made a mistake and paid her the rent instead of the new owner. Tell her you are pissed and then tell ask her to give you the funds back. She will obviously say no She was scamming you So then say OK

No problem In the meantime I will let the tax department know you have been getting this money and Tell her you hope she declared i

She did not

She will then relent and give you the money

Done

Extortion is what it is! and it's a crime! OP if you listen to this ##### you will have more problems than you could ever imagine. Your a farang, the owner (or past owner) is Thai. The law is on their side. Negoitate or Move. EASY!

Attempting to obtain money that you are rightfully owed is not extortion. The OP paid the rent in good faith to the ex-owner who was clearly deliberately out to defraud him. He is due a refund of his final rent payment and deposit (if any), and any legal means are good to this end. Denouncing tax fraud is legal.

As for the new owner, he can charge what he likes (with due notice) and if the OP doesn't want to pay it then he can move.

OP is due nothing! He paid rent for 18 months to the old owner. Got value for his money! New owner is NOT asking for him to double pay. Post was vague but either old owner forwarded the money to new owner OR as previously said old owner took out a loan (gave chanote as collateral) ..

But trying to get money out of the old owner by threatening to turn him over to the tax authories is extortion as he is NOT rightfully entitled to the money!

[macpayne]

you have no contract, the owner can do what they like.

The first clue was when she said "DONT WORRY" as soon has i hear those words from anyone over here i already know to start worrying has that means the complete opposite here.