Murders on Koh Tao: UK, Myanmar 'can observe'

[Kru Baa]

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The BBC just announced that Britain's offer for help has been rejected.

This trial is going to be railroaded through regardless.

Offered? That's pretty weak. They should be insisting on it!

[Aceicol]

Thanks guys, been another enjoyable time killing some time here but need to run and still need to get back over to the Elvis is Still Alive page and make and thank them too.

If we don't hear from you soon, we'll pop over to the gullible cheerleader page to find you.

[Kru Baa]

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Thais could easily clear all these doubts up , and be seen to have been right all along.

Why risk a massive decline in confidence world wide?

The UK forensic DNA tests would if permitted vindicate them 100%

Or would they?

Obviously , its clear Thais have gone so far down their deceitful path , with such a vested interest in closing the case , its too late to back track-

With so much at stake , its clear why they won't simply clear their name and allow the tests.

This is a crime as heinous as the murderers ones.

Plucking innocents and sacrificing them and arrogantly saying ""mind your own business ""case closed"

If they do that "'woe unto them and their tourist dollars$ in future>"

But they will stand by that lie to the end. They never admit fault no mater how much evidence to the contrary you put in their face. When backed into a corner they just shut down and refuse to accept reality. I've seen it so many times.

[khunpa]

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Thais could easily clear all these doubts up , and be seen to have been right all along.

Why risk a massive decline in confidence world wide?

The UK forensic DNA tests would if permitted vindicate them 100%

Or would they?

Obviously , its clear Thais have gone so far down their deceitful path , with such a vested interest in closing the case , its too late to back track-

With so much at stake , its clear why they won't simply clear their name and allow the tests.

This is a crime as heinous as the murderers ones.

Plucking innocents and sacrificing them and arrogantly saying ""mind your own business ""case closed"

If they do that "'woe unto them and their tourist dollars$ in future>"

But they will stand by that lie to the end. They never admit fault no mater how much evidence to the contrary you put in their face. When backed into a corner they just shut down and refuse to accept reality. I've seen it so many times.

Very true. Admitting mistakes or failure is not an option in Thai-mentality. Also why the country in general is only going one way... DOWN!

[jaywalker]

Can you imagine if some actual investigator got permission to look at all the evidence in a case like this? If I was running Thailand I would not make it public either, it could literally destroy the country. The thing that really scares me is how truly incapable Thailand is, and that of course this must be hidden from the world. They know this, and they will continue to run things in this fashion until an international organization has the authority to force them to stop.

Yes, of course all the court records will be destroyed and shredded since almost everything in a Thai court is done through paper filings by the prosecution and defense.

That probably does make it easier to shred evidence.

Not sure if anybody (even in the USA) has heard about the USA top tax collector that was spying on conservative groups and, apparently, at the behest of the liberal government, "lost" a gazillion email records about said snooping.

I went to Kuwait in 2004 as a civilian contractor & had to "In-Process" at a US Army base in Texas so I could "Get my shots etc".......Nevermind that I'd been to 45 countries & had just returned to Thailand (had to go to Texas from Thailand before I could go to Kuwait...HUH???) from Kuwait 6 months before......AAAHHHHHH!!!! We have to give you 25 shots....."You never know what's outside the 'Safety' of the USA!!!"

Sorry rant over there, but I had retired from the Army in 1998. I had no sooner gave them my "Social Security " number than the lady asked me if I still lived at the address I had in 1998!

They can keep tabs on me, but not on themselves.........Thailand is probably worse than others though, but that c%nt tax lady can get away with it.

Sorry just a rant about government corruption in general. It happens everywhere.

I feel sorry for those that believe "government" is the answer to everything.

I hope these Myanmar guys get a fair deal, and if they are truly guilty, convicted, but they deserve to have a rigorous defense, in my opinion.

If they HAD jury trials in Thailand, and I were on that jury, my mind has already been influenced to the Not Guilty side just from what I know of the corruption at every level of ANY and EVERY THING at ALL levels of the Thai government.

I spent 7+ years around various guv'ment agencies there.

I'm in the USA now.....WOW! An entrepreneur's dream as compared to a farang in Thailand (I just scored a SWEET contract today).

I'm not fluent in Thai, but they thought I didn't understand a word. I catch about half what they are saying though.

I have seen, WITH MY OWN EYES, envelopes of cash being handed over for various reasons to certain folks wearing certain uniforms.

For some reason I still love Thailand though.

Much like anywhere I've ever been, keep your head down & play by the rules.

Quite tragic what happened to David & Hannah, and I hope actual, true justice is somehow found for their families.

[Local Drunk]

Tis obvious that we need a wee bit of help resolving our seemingly intractable and often conflicting opinions on this matter. So therefore I have at enlisted at great personal expense the the very best minds that England has in the area of forensic science to to bring us back to a more harmonious state.

[jacky54]

Aside from all of the other glaring inconsistencies that make me doubt that these Burmese guys are the actual murderers, there is one other thing that particularly baffles me about this case: If they really had committed the murders, would these guys have just hung around on the island, waiting to be caught? They had WEEKS before they became suspects in which to flee. They could have EASILY disappeared into some remote village in Burma, never to be heard from again. Yet they didn't. Now contrast THEIR behavior with that of the person who actually DID flee . . .

And also volunteered for DNA tests which they then passed, very odd behaviour for 'murderers'

[Mitker]

Could the UK do a "reverse" DNA test, testing siblings or parents of the accused and then compare that to possible DNA evidence at hand? Would that work?

Good idea. But can the defence use the result?

I would go for this.

It may be tricky on a procedural point of view indeed. But it would give a clue impossible to ignore and decisively more credible for the public than the endless series of announcements/denials/threats/rebuttals from the actual team.

Ignoring it as a whole seems unimaginable to me. But I'm ready for the most unbelievable in this case

[Emster23]

"Somyot, meanwhile, said the discussion with the ambassadors was not so much a meeting, but rather an explanation" Which means that hard questions and concerns couldn't be asked.... 3 hours? Similar to Thai classrooms: just sit there and take it, ask no questions.

Don't know if anyone brought this up, but a bit odd the interrogation and confessions were not recorded (or we have not been told if they were). I would imagine this would be too revealing of RTP methods and probably make roti seller flip his pancake. Recording is routine in USA and has been for decades.

[love1012]

Sadly it was a great opportunity for Thailand to improve and restore the worlds faith in the RTP. It is no surprise that this action has been given. I would trust the BBC more than the Nation on its reporting and hopefully they will get it right soon.. Anyone with a small amount of intelligence can see there are inconsistences and lots of questions unanswered with these murders. This case will not go away and with the world and social media following it closely, this could end up to hurt Thailand more than ever.

It is a shame that this opportunity was wasted. Same old crap of saving face instead of having transparency. Nothing seems to change and at times just gets worse which is frustrating when you want to see improvement for all. There was me thinking that the country was developing. Only in my dreams.

In what world do police layout the case for the public before it goes to court? The problem here is police releasing some information and people speculating on the rest. They should have just kept their mouth shut from the get go as other more modern forces do and not have been releasing info of who was the current suspect or about bits of possible evidence and making idiotic personal opinion statements based on limited information.

Anyone with a small amount of knowledge about crimes know that it is rare for there not be unanswered questions even after a verdict and even if the suspect pleaded guilty and confessed. Confessions are usually self serving and the confessor often minimizes what they did by saying things like they were drunk or on drugs and yes I killed the child but didn't rape her or no, I didn't have sex with the person after killing them or yes I hit them with the blunt edge of the hoe but didn't intend to kill them.

They have confessed to police, lawyer and their embassy advocates. The DNA matches. They were in and around the scene at the time of the crime as verified by video and witnesses. Their friend will testify against them including being given the phone of one of the victim's to get rid of and destroy. If there is doubt then that is what a trial is for and why the y have lawyers who again, can have DNA results put in question and retested.

There is absolutely no reason and it would be against all international protocol given the circumstances of this case to have the police ask the UK to get involved. If anything, they'd ask the FBI for help if they needed it. But the police have built their case and have the evidence they need, they don't need help. If the defense teams needs help then they can certainly ask the UK, if they are willing, to help provide them resources to defend the suspects. But almost surely none of this is going to happen because the two will almost surely plead guilty to what they did.

it must be so nice on your planet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BoristheBlade]

Never mind DNA, what about motive?

The injuries to Hanna were beyond words, they were inflicted by someone who is very ill, and evil. A person who has killed before ans is sure to kill again.

General remember that, because this will happen again.

I hope you sleep well tonight General, I am sure the family of Hanna,David and the two Burmese accused won't be.

[atyclb]

Could the UK do a "reverse" DNA test, testing siblings or parents of the accused and then compare that to possible DNA evidence at hand? Would that work?

That is a most excellent idea and the answer is a likely YES, it could serve to place a high degree of doubt since it would give a "probability of" result that could be an astronomically high non probability that the accused did it.

This in effect would be like taking DNA samples from the family members of those who refused.

[Konaboy1]

Nothing will change

[Robby nz]

I am going to say that I don't believe the lawyers for the accused were in court yesterday to hear the evidence from the witnesses.

I base this on the statement :

Before the session began, Hall asked that the testimony be postponed for another month, as two lawyers had been newly assigned by the Lawyers Council of Thailand to represent the defendants after their lawyer, Phailbook Nunraksa, withdrew his services.

Andy Hall is the human rights man and not one of the lawyers, that it was him that stood up and asked for a postponement and not a lawyer makes me think no lawyers were present, after all lawyers would not be shy of leaping up on their hind feet and speaking for themselves or their client.

That will mean there has been no chance given to question or cross examine the witnesses and should they disappear before a trial there never will be.

Whether the accused were in court to hear testimony against them is another thing, perhaps we will find that out later, if they were not present the witness statements will be completely unchallenged. Although the accused would not have got a chance to speak even if they had been there.

Another travesty of justice ?

Andy Hall was in court so he should have a recording of proceedings, that should mean that what went on should get into the public arena, we wait to see.

[Konaboy1]

I agree

[flamesfan]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

Anyone that has spent enough time in Thailand knows exactly what is probably going down here. There are no conspiracy theories, just standard operating practice when involving the local constabulary and well connected persons. Scapegoats are found, preferably Burmese, convicted and then disappear, justice is done. Not that Thailand is the only country that has different laws for the rich, look at all the Banksters walking around free.

As I said before, just need someone who is willing to play detective and obtain DNA from these hiso mafia thugs. Cigarette butts,glass, or any small items. Would be a dangerous mission, but perhaps solve the case.

[Konaboy1]

So true. The only goal here now for the authorities is to wait it out until it all goes away. These suspects will be processed Thai style. Sad

[ParadiseLost]

I am going to say that I don't believe the lawyers for the accused were in court yesterday to hear the evidence from the witnesses.

I base this on the statement :

Before the session began, Hall asked that the testimony be postponed for another month, as two lawyers had been newly assigned by the Lawyers Council of Thailand to represent the defendants after their lawyer, Phailbook Nunraksa, withdrew his services.

Andy Hall is the human rights man and not one of the lawyers, that it was him that stood up and asked for a postponement and not a lawyer makes me think no lawyers were present, after all lawyers would not be shy of leaping up on their hind feet and speaking for themselves or their client.

That will mean there has been no chance given to question or cross examine the witnesses and should they disappear before a trial there never will be.

Whether the accused were in court to hear testimony against them is another thing, perhaps we will find that out later, if they were not present the witness statements will be completely unchallenged. Although the accused would not have got a chance to speak even if they had been there.

Another travesty of justice ?

Andy Hall was in court so he should have a recording of proceedings, that should mean that what went on should get into the public arena, we wait to see.

Maybe there is no need for drastic measures, such as "should they disappear before a trial". All that is needed is a guilty plea and it all shuts down. Once judgement is passed, it is illegal under Thai law to debate, question or criticize the ruling. (I think that is how it works.)

On one hand we have the human rights guys saying - tell the truth, we will protect you, while the other side could well be saying plead not-guilty - you gonna die, but plead guilty we will take care of you and when it all quietens down you will be released and paid a big chunk of change. Which offer would you take? Death penalty appears to only be on the table if they retract.

[sgtsabai]

JTJ=troll. Don't feed the trolls.

[rjcampbe]

It's BS.

Unless the UK is allowed to take its own DNA swabs from the suspects and compare them to what they have from Hannah, it's all a farce.

"Observe?"

It's time for the UK to get tough. I won't say how on this forum, but the UK wields a lot of clout.

The fact is that even if UK or any other countries experts were given access to the samples to run the DNA tests again it wouldn't solve anything. Even if they "took their own swabs".

At this point, the evidence has been so severely compromised, by both run of the mill incompetence and systemic corruption, that we will never untangle it.

I agree that the UK and others should get tough and call Thailand out on this embarrassing charade, but that isn't going to have any effect either.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

[rjcampbe]

It's BS.

Unless the UK is allowed to take its own DNA swabs from the suspects and compare them to what they have from Hannah, it's all a farce.

"Observe?"

It's time for the UK to get tough. I won't say how on this forum, but the UK wields a lot of clout.

The fact is that even if UK or any other countries experts were given access to the samples to run the DNA tests again it wouldn't solve anything. Even if they "took their own swabs".

At this point, the evidence has been so severely compromised, by both run of the mill incompetence and systemic corruption, that we will never untangle it.

I agree that the UK and others should get tough and call Thailand out on this embarrassing charade, but that isn't going to have any effect either.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Edited October 15, 2014 by rjcampbe

[angiolo]

It's BS.

Unless the UK is allowed to take its own DNA swabs from the suspects and compare them to what they have from Hannah, it's all a farce.

"Observe?"

It's time for the UK to get tough. I won't say how on this forum, but the UK wields a lot of clout.

ABSOLUTELY.. But no chance,the police cannot chance a reversal.

[Kru Baa]

The British government doesn't even care about its citizens that get murdered by foreigners in their own country. Why would they care about the ones that get killed abroad?

[belg]

step 1 : take dna from the suspects

step 2 : bring it back to the UK & check if it matches what eventually was left in the girl

[evadgib]

JTJ=troll. Don't feed the trolls.

I'm not so sure. Trolls generally have no interest either way & merely stir the sh1t for the sake of it. His posts lead me to believe that he might actually be working for the people he's defending; making him a digital Lord Haw Haw.

[bkkstooge]

apologies, but copy and paste function seems to have crapped out so link, but for anyone who's interested check out today's Jersey Post site

"100s to March on Downing Street Over Thai Murders"

[evadgib]

It's here:

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2014/10/14/hundreds-to-march-on-downing-street-over-thai-murders/

[greenchair]

The brits are here. The burms are here. The truth has many eyes now.

There are many police who want this cleared too.

Stop complaining and give them all a chance. There comes a time when one must accept.

[jomcondo]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

Troll speak

[stephen terry]

The brits are here. The burms are here. The truth has many eyes now.

There are many police who want this cleared too.

Stop complaining and give them all a chance. There comes a time when one must accept.

Chance to observe justice, thai style?