Thailand agrees to British police help over murders

[Baerboxer]

OH YEAA

This is what we wanted all along, objective reached.

BIG thanks to everyone who made a fuss and helped get the word out.

For once its one up to the good guys.

Yes excellent news indeed, still it's very embarrassing for the British Ambassador and his cronies who should have organised this in the first place instead of us having to sidestep them in the first place whilst they dithered. I just hope that vital evidence still remains.

Based on the document from which I have posted excerpts "MURDER, MANSLAUGHTER AND INFANTICIDE OF BRITISH NATIONALS ABROAD (2012)" this is a well documented procedure and most likely much was going on behind the scenes to prepare for the scheduled-well-in-advance Milan meeting when both the PM's of Thailand and UK would be in attendance.

Thank you for posting that report link and excerpts. Those procedures and clarifications came in for England and Wales in 2012. The situation in Jersey may well be different as it is in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

I hope you are right. It seems, where identification is not in doubt, it then relies on either the family of the victim or the coroner making requests to the police. The report mentions the appropriate force, which in this case would seem to be the Norfolk Constabulary. Given all the publicity the Chief Constable of that force hopefully appointed a SIO in accordance with the new procedures as well as family liaison / support officers.

British police forces like to work away until the time is right. Blabbing to the press can get them into serious trouble too, as some have recently found out.

[ffaarraanngg]

He is a weirdo that is making this up for some attention.

Well, I'm certain that my friend called me. I'm certain of what he told me. I suppose there is a small possibility that he was drunk and made up the whole story. (I say a small possibility because he doesn't drink.) If it turns out that he made up the whole story, then I will apologize to all of you - and I will end my friendship with this dear old friend for telling me this embarrassing lie. But if the story turns out to be true, I hope you will apologize to me.

I suppose there is also the possibility that the newspaper made up the story, although that is not the type of behavior that would keep a newspaper in business for a long time.

We should have more details about this by tomorrow morning in any case.

If this story was true CSI LA would be onto it right away.

[Johnsen]

So go into more detail for us. Just use the word allegedly.. R we talking Nomsod here...

[Bleacher Bum East]

After Russia, Britain is the only European country in the top ten off visitor numbers to Thailand, with the best part of a million visitors per year. For Thailand to treat this crime without regard to the concerns of the British could prove a costly mistake for a country where tourism is already down over 10% on the year on year figures ....and this when initially an increase was hoped for.

Italy has already fallen out with Thailand over the murder of their journalist and the EU is still not 100% in favour of the new regime....this is just the kind of thing that Thailand doesn't need right now.

If all British visitors decided to stay away (highly unlikely) the difference in Thailands GDP would be something like 0.2-0.3%

Where did you pluck those numbers from?

If half of the expats left as well and took their monthly spending elsewhere that would have no effect as well I guess?

JOC I assume your point is that if British visitors all decided, or were instructed by their government, to stay away, it would have a significant impact on the Thai economy. In fact, it could cost the country 0.2-0.3% of it's GDP! Which would represent at least 13-20% of of its entire GDP growth in 2014, and about 800 million-1.2 billion dollars in lost GDP.

Even if all British tourists did not stay away, if the cumulative impact of tourists from all countries who did stay away as a result of a certain incident equaled the same drop in GDP, the impact would be the same!

Somehow I don't think those in charge of directing the Thai economy and those dependent on a healthy tourism sector (which ripples throughout the entire economy) would be nonchalantly sipping coffee and reading the paper when contemplating the fact that one incident on one small island could potentially have this large of an impact on their country's economy and world standing.

Even if the impact was 1/10 of what you describe, it would still be significant.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[wackybacky]

To be honest.... I think a new e-petition should be enabled to hit the UK/Thai to demand nothing less than an uninterrupted investigation by the UK police.

I know it will be laughed at at the Thai side....But it won't at the UK (or media) side.

Up to now..... I don't think it is enough and already I am seing apathy from the Brits as they feast on other top UK news stories.

We can't et this sleep.

I will start a new petitoon and this time it won't be aimed at the UK..... It will be aimed at Prayuth.

Edited October 18, 2014 by wackybacky

[joecoolfrog]

Wacky

I admire your enthusiasm but lets not get ahead of ourselves , lets see what the Plods come up with first.

[dundee48]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Joc
The Uk is just an 'unimportant part of Europe ' , yet its economy is around 3,000 times the size of Thailand. By your reasoning that makes the later very insignificant indeed does it not ?[/quote
The UK has a lot of unemployment and sad old people left to die in NHS nursing homes that are under funded, the weather is dreadful 6 months of the year, the towns are cemeteries after 6.00pm, no street life. It's a lovely place to be for a few days in the summer,beautiful stone cottages, and countryside. But that's it, which may explain why the UK has so many residents living abroad.

That's a lie!

The weather is dreadful for 11 months of the year.

Wrong,thats the only truthful thing he said in his anti-British rant.

[poweratradio]

I can't imagine they're going to get the access they require but rather be "hand held" around the evidence. Still they will know it is happening and be able to come back and tell their story!

How can a second opinion on the DNA evidence be of any value now after it could have been garnered from the scapegoats prior and placed.

[MikePhuket1970]

Since september 19th four days after the horrific crime my favourite suspects are

Mon and Nomsod.

Nothing could convince me

to change my mind

so far

[joecoolfrog]

Poweratradio

I dont think its off topic in the least , one could say preservation of the tourist buck has been very much part of this ' investigation ' from the start.

[catsanddogs]

I second that englishoak. We need to be on this forum for the right reasons. Please let's have some faith at the moment that things are moving in the right and proper direction. For those wishing to discuss a potential downfall for Thailand and the tourist industry, it would be better for a new discussion post to be enabled.

[wackybacky]

Since september 19th four days after the horrific crime my favourite suspects are

Mon and Nomsod.

Nothing could convince me

to change my mind

so far

The British police will hold these up as the main suspects, but they will have fled justice as usual in LOS.

But if Thailand is serious about catching them, the UK police WILL track them down..... the always do.

Something Thailand has never been able to do.

Thailand may learn something here.

[Fatty123]

They're sending over Scotland Yard detectives according to this lot. Not sure if it's allowed, but here is the (pretty brief) story.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/10/18/scotland-yard-detectives-heading-to-thailand-to-help-investigate-murder-2/

[MikePhuket1970]

Since september 19th four days after the horrific crime my favourite suspects are

Mon and Nomsod.

Nothing could convince me

to change my mind

so far

The British police will hold these up as the main suspects, but they will have fled justice as usual in LOS.

But if Thailand is serious about catching them, the UK police WILL track them down..... the always do.

Something Thailand has never been able to do.

Thailand may learn something here.

If they guilty and gonna hide in

Nakhon nowhere or Cambodia it would be a difficult task

to catch them.

Anyway,lets see first how it will works with the british officers

and get the scapegoats out of the firing line

[lung]

not want to blow it of...

...but

UK cops 'to only observe'

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/webmobile/national/UK-cops-to-only-observe-30245770.html

[Fatty123]

not want to blow it of...

...but

UK cops 'to only observe'

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/webmobile/national/UK-cops-to-only-observe-30245770.html

There does seem to be a bit of disparity between the UK and Thailand with their statements. The Brits say 'assist' and the Thais say 'observe'.

Huge difference between those two words. 'Dave' needs to clarify this asap.

[englishoak]

not want to blow it of...

...but

UK cops 'to only observe'

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/webmobile/national/UK-cops-to-only-observe-30245770.html

There does seem to be a bit of disparity between the UK and Thailand with their statements. The Brits say 'assist' and the Thais say 'observe'.

Huge difference between those two words. 'Dave' needs to clarify this asap.

No need, "assist" is the diplomatic official gov released word and yesterday "observe" is the Thai media and a week old regurgitated buzz word ..........

[wackybacky]

not want to blow it of...

...but

UK cops 'to only observe'

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/webmobile/national/UK-cops-to-only-observe-30245770.html

Lol...... clinging to 2 day old news.... Prayuth already blew it off for you.

[ffaarraanngg]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Joc

The Uk is just an 'unimportant part of Europe ' , yet its economy is around 3,000 times the size of Thailand. By your reasoning that makes the later very insignificant indeed does it not ?[/quote

The UK has a lot of unemployment and sad old people left to die in NHS nursing homes that are under funded, the weather is dreadful 6 months of the year, the towns are cemeteries after 6.00pm, no street life. It's a lovely place to be for a few days in the summer,beautiful stone cottages, and countryside. But that's it, which may explain why the UK has so many residents living abroad.

That's a lie!

The weather is dreadful for 11 months of the year.

Wrong,thats the only truthful thing he said in his anti-British rant.

Its 20 degrees Celsius today.

[MJP]

^^ Lovely innit? It's like a never ending summer this year. The first Indian Winter is being predicted by some.

[kaobang]

not want to blow it of...

...but

UK cops 'to only observe'

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/webmobile/national/UK-cops-to-only-observe-30245770.html

There does seem to be a bit of disparity between the UK and Thailand with their statements. The Brits say 'assist' and the Thais say 'observe'.

Huge difference between those two words. 'Dave' needs to clarify this asap.

No need, "assist" is the diplomatic official gov released word and yesterday "observe" is the Thai media and a week old regurgitated buzz word ..........

again...if thailand has the will...the uk police can assist and even collect evidence!

australian police did the same in Bali,Indonesia...

[lung]

not want to blow it of...

...but

UK cops 'to only observe'

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/webmobile/national/UK-cops-to-only-observe-30245770.html

Lol...... clinging to 2 day old news.... Prayuth already blew it off for you.

NOPE

October 19, 2014 1:00 am (Thai)

just 3h old...

[retsdon]

Undoubtedly the Thai police are not exactly going to welcome Scotland Yard tramping over their case in their size 12 DMs. But like it or not, local law is going to be posed questions which will be very hard to evade. And also undoubtedly, Plod will be submitting a written report which will at some point see the light of day. The chances are that the report - regardless of how this case finally resolves - is not going to be exactly complimentary of Thai police practice. From not securing the crime scene to transporting suspects to 'safe' houses for prolonged interrogation, much of what's happened in the investigation of this case flies directly in the face of internationally accepted good investigative practice.

The Thai authorities could take this two ways. The knee jerk reaction will undoubtedly be the 'this is Thailand' mantra. But good investigative practice is good investigative practice no matter where, and it Is absurd to suggest that reality doesn't apply inside the country. The other way to take it is as a wake up call. Why not just fix the problem? Are ordinary Thais undeserving of a halfway competent police force? Judging by what's ricocheting around on Thai social media, an awful lot of Thai people are well pissed-off that their country's good name is being dragged through the mud, but they're simultaneously glad that a spotlight that can't just be switched off is finally being shone on the crap they've been having to put up with since the year dot.

It's 2014. Why not just bring the country into the 21st century and make iinvestigation of crime the main job of the police rather than the feudal defence of the status quo and vested interests which is their current brief. Not only is this medieval mindset cringingly embarassing, but it also holds back the social and economic development of the country.

Out of crisis comes opportunity. The Thai authorities should grasp this one.

[joecoolfrog]

Retsdon

What you need to ask yourself is who would suffer from such a revamp and do Turkeys vote for Xmas ?

[retsdon]

Retsdon

What you need to ask yourself is who would suffer from such a revamp and do Turkeys vote for Xmas ?

Yes, I know, I know. But at the same time if these people would look at the bigger picture, they'd see that there isn't an escape. Nothing stays constant because it's always relative to something else. So either Thailand is moving forwards or it's moving backwards relative to everywhere else in the world. Thailand has done very well over the last twenty years or so by marketing itself as a manufacturing base - the primary attraction of which is a large body of cheap and docile (if not particularly well-educated) labour. But that can't last forever. Other countries are coming on stream and with local aspirations being what they are, Thailand won't be able to compete on that basis for very much longer. Thais not only need to be, but are, becoming better educated, more self-reliant, more questioning, and the old feudal ways are consequently looking increasingly anachronistic.

For sure, the authorities can wield the big stick and try to stop the clock - but where's the benefit? At the end of the next twenty years, Thailand will have taken over the role of Myanmar or North Korea. Who's making money then? Barring a total revolution, the rich will always be rich. But they'll be a lot richer in a developed country than in a feudal backwater.

Social development - like a decent police force - is in everyone's interest, including the uber-rich.

[T_Dog]

Still a large disparity between the UK and Thai governments on the extent of the help.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/thai-beach-murders-british-police-head-to-thailand-to-investigate-deaths-9803787.html

[fasteddie]

Well, by the time they get their work permits.......................................

Or refused re-entry on their first visa run.

[draftvader]

Get real man!!

Sorry to break it to you, but the Empire collapsed a while back!! Today UK is just another not very important part of Europe!

When considering the number of tourists visiting Thailand every year, I am sure that the murderrate is very low, where tourists are the victims. That the Brits are overrepresented in those statistics have more to do with the Brits themselves than the hostcountry.

Arrivals from China is 5 times higher than arrivals from the UK. How many Chinese are murdered here??

Ofcourse the brutal murder of the 2 young Brits is a tragidy, but it doesn't stop the world.

This social media frenzy, where the victims are almost forgotten, is almost more scary than the actual murders.

Been here 12 years. Never felt safer anywhere else!

Yawn!

UK - 8th largest economy in the world - "a not very important part of Europe"

This murder is about more than these 2 kids. Hopefully their deaths will spark a change for this country that, if you have any good Thai friends here, you should be eager to see happen. Why should this nation of almost identical population size's GDP be 3,720 times smaller than the UK? I'm not in this for my good, it would probably serve me better to shut up and reel my neck in. It's not about me but about the people who love and support me and my family in this country we call home.

At least the Thais and the Brits have one thing in common!! Not very good with numbers!!

According to IMF (2013) GDP per capita: Thailand 5.676$. UK 39.370$

That is about 7 times higher for the UK. 3.720 times????? (working for TAT?)

@wackybacky: As for my inferior complex in reference to the UK, same numbers for my country;59.130$

As for being the 8th largest economy, not to difficult when you print money, or as you like to call it QE!!

Apart from that most Brits I know are nice and decent people!

I must apologise. I have gone back and looked at my sources and realised that I misinterpreted a '.' as a ',' I will forgive myself as I had spent, on that day, around 10 hours working in CSS, PHP and SQL which would have put 1,000s (not a mistake) of ','s and ','s in front of me. Though not quite as impressive in the running I can see that it is still a MASSIVE difference in economies.

However going back over the data has pointed out another mistake I have made. The UK economy is unanimously agreed to be the 6th largest in the world and the 2nd largest in Europe - "a not very important part of Europe". Whereas it is described within the sources I have checked as "one of the world's most globalised economies". Obviously your opinion is very important on a global scale.

I made a mistake with a single, microscopic, separator at the end of a LONG day.

[draftvader]

OK, let's put an end to this craziness.

I have worked in security-related fields in Europe, including working alongside police forces. Never ever have I heard of police officers working undercover on foreign soil.

Western police forces are notoriously understaffed, and they have enough on their plates working on cases that actually took place in their own damn country. Not to mention the fact that, even if they did work undercover on a case that involved their own nationals abroad, they wouldn't be allowed to use whatever information they collected since it would have been gathered illegally. And to put the cherry on top, if police officers were found to be working undercover in a foreign country without the express permission of that country's government, they could be jailed.

In the present case, the only force that could be working undercover is MI6. Intelligence agencies typically provide their agents abroad with a diplomatic cover, which gives them immunity from prosecution. BUT MI6 would only take on a case where Britain's interests are in jeopardy. I doubt a mishandled murder investigation, no matter how tragic the case is, would warrant an undercover action. MI6 has definitely bigger fish to fry than this.

Whilst your statement is very likely true when it comes down to Her Majesty's finest what you are forgetting is the freelance intelligence businesses that have representation all over the world. I have a good friend who speaks fluent Thai and Parsi (work that out). Lovely guy from Michigan. When he was last here this unsuspecting guy, who could drink 99% under the table and remain very aware and friendly, kept going to embassy parties. I really couldn't work it out and used to joke that he was CIA. He finally told me that he wasn't CIA or any US government employee but working for an independent contractor who supplied a myriad of agencies. None of his work was that "sexy" but he just kept a general level of information flowing back from his conversations at these "events" he kept attending. There are plenty of these agencies and it wouldn't be difficult, or that costly, to pay for them to head to the islands to drink in a bar and just pay attention. "Dumb Farang, can't speak Thai..."

I can't imagine they're going to get the access they require but rather be "hand held" around the evidence. Still they will know it is happening and be able to come back and tell their story!

How can a second opinion on the DNA evidence be of any value now after it could have been garnered from the scapegoats prior and placed.

If that is the case then the UK coroner's office is well aware. The amount of evidence that a decent pathologist can get from a body is outstanding. That evidence would be unbelievably damning and it would certainly be in the PMs armory already.

[nicolas18]

OK, let's put an end to this craziness.

I have worked in security-related fields in Europe, including working alongside police forces. Never ever have I heard of police officers working undercover on foreign soil.

Western police forces are notoriously understaffed, and they have enough on their plates working on cases that actually took place in their own damn country. Not to mention the fact that, even if they did work undercover on a case that involved their own nationals abroad, they wouldn't be allowed to use whatever information they collected since it would have been gathered illegally. And to put the cherry on top, if police officers were found to be working undercover in a foreign country without the express permission of that country's government, they could be jailed.

In the present case, the only force that could be working undercover is MI6. Intelligence agencies typically provide their agents abroad with a diplomatic cover, which gives them immunity from prosecution. BUT MI6 would only take on a case where Britain's interests are in jeopardy. I doubt a mishandled murder investigation, no matter how tragic the case is, would warrant an undercover action. MI6 has definitely bigger fish to fry than this.

Whilst your statement is very likely true when it comes down to Her Majesty's finest what you are forgetting is the freelance intelligence businesses that have representation all over the world. I have a good friend who speaks fluent Thai and Parsi (work that out). Lovely guy from Michigan. When he was last here this unsuspecting guy, who could drink 99% under the table and remain very aware and friendly, kept going to embassy parties. I really couldn't work it out and used to joke that he was CIA. He finally told me that he wasn't CIA or any US government employee but working for an independent contractor who supplied a myriad of agencies. None of his work was that "sexy" but he just kept a general level of information flowing back from his conversations at these "events" he kept attending. There are plenty of these agencies and it wouldn't be difficult, or that costly, to pay for them to head to the islands to drink in a bar and just pay attention. "Dumb Farang, can't speak Thai..."

There are indeed private firms that deal in intelligence gathering. However, there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever for any branch of the British government to send undercover agents or to hire private firms to do undercover work.

While this is a truly tragic case, this has nothing to do with Britain's national security or with the defense of the country's interests. If it was, say, a terrorism-related case, things would of course be entirely different.

We should also remember that we live in Thailand, where this case has been on the news for weeks now. For expats here, and especially for Brits, this is of course a big deal. However, for your average folk in, say, Brighton, this is a murder that took place in an exotic country far away from home and it is nothing more than one tragedy among many others reported daily by the press.