UK cops 'to only observe'

[jdinasia]

The Thai police as a whole could learn a lot from allowing police from the UK to not only help with the investigation but to train the Thai police on how to be a police officer period! Bring in the Brits and let them have at it with the Thai police department. Maybe lose face but help to save a nation.

The RTA already gets training from the US.

Not at present. Not since the coup.

AFAIK only one training was cancelled for the RTP

[PaPiPuPePo]

P.S. favourable has a "u" in it and defence is spelled with a "c" and before you argue that you spell it that way in America , the language is English

Oh that's rich, you lost that debate in 1783. And….are you as new to the internet as to this forum?

[Emster23]

Majority of comments are from the "Peanut Gallery" again.

Guessing half or more of the "Peanut Gallery" are misplaced Brits who can't find a home anywhere anyway. People who can't seem to make a living at home and move to Thailand feeling they're a million percent smarter cause at home nobody would listen to them anyway (nor pay them enough money to be worth staying there, hence the move to Thailand).

You guys should chill and wait for the verdict from the British side. Someday, if this website gets hacked and you guys real ID's are figured out, you'll be the ONLY ones who have problems with visas etc. except for the "real" bad guys.

You might note us Yanks are a lot more careful about posting than you cause it's a whole lot more fun to watch than "expose yourselves".

Cheers Maties

I'll ignore the first 2 paragraphs of your post as they show your ignorance and contempt.

Would you still be sitting with your head up your ar#se if the victims were from Yankland or maybe family or friends of yours?

'Chilling out' and hiding behind drawn curtains isn't something to be proud of when an injustice may be done very soon to these 2 accused boys. The victims were Brits and their families deserve a closure that sees justice is done. The way this investigation has been 'railroaded' looks just like a KKK revival party. The KKK never shouted "let's have a beer and chill out whilst we decide whether to lynch 'em". Best not to assume ALL other countries' citizens think the way Yanks do, 'eh?

Please do not speak for all of "us yanks". I am one. I've posted my 2 cents, signed the petition. I live here in Thailand, have for 13 years. I am not so foolish as to think a murderer of foreigners is going to first inquire nationality and then decide to kill or not. I want justice here, for the family, the expats, Thai people, accused's sake. There is much more making this seem a frameup than just DNA confirm or not: no bruises on suspects (David probably outweighed both of them put together), that shoe footprint, fact they passed DNA first time, etc etc etc.

Also, may suggest stick to the issues rather than cheap shot ad hominem attacks ("can't make living at home", "Peanut gallery", etc). I don't like USA bashing when has nothing to do with subject, same goes for UK or anywhere else.

In the future speak for yourself and don't lump us into your view. You speak for yourself, period.

[Artisi]

The debate about the role that the UK government can and should play in the investigation of Hannah and David's death is a legitimate one involving many considerations by all involved. And it is not an easy black-and-white issue to resolve, because what ultimately happens has many ramifications outside this particular case.

My opinion is that the UK investigators should essentially act as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are UK citizens. Here is why:

Many parties (everyone actually) have an interest in bringing Hannah and David's attackers and killers to justice, but the supreme interest is held by their families.

If Hanna and David's families wanted to do so, they could hire a private investigator to collect and examine evidence, search for and interview witnesses, and review any evidence the Thai police was either willing to provide access to or made public.

The PI would have no legal authority to require cooperation from witnesses, search premises, etc., and definitely not to prosecute the case. The PI would be legally acting in a private (non-Thai government or law enforcement) capacity on behalf of the families.

When finished obtaining and analyzing the available evidence, the PI could report back to the families exactly what evidence it has collected and reviewed, as well as what evidence it has not had access to. It could also offer an expert opinion on the quality of that evidence, discrepancies and conflicts contained in the evidence, as well as on police procedures in gathering, handling and analyzing evidence.

The PI could also provide its expert opinion, based on the evidence it has seen and analyzed, as to who committed the crimes (if the PI believes it has sufficient proof to say beyond a reasonable doubt) and who did not commit the crimes (again, if sufficient proof is in hand beyond a reasonable doubt). In the alternative, if the PI does not have sufficient proof to say, in his or her expert opinion, who did or did not commit the crimes beyond a reasonable doubt, the report can state that also.

The PI could then offer all of the evidence it has collected as an independent investigator to both the prosecution and the defense, to use as they wish. Whether it aids the prosecution or the defense should not be of concern, because they are only interested in justice, finding the real killers.

Finally, the PI could observe the trial and compare what is offered as evidence in court with what they discovered in their own investigation. Then they could report back to the families as to whether what went into either convicting or exonerating the accused matched with what they discovered, and deliver an expert opinion as to whether it was a fair verdict, one way or the other.

In this particular case, the UK government's team of investigators can do all of the things I've described above. They can, in essence, be acting as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are citizens of the UK. And they can do so without "participating" or "interfering" with the Thai police, prosecution or judiciary.

If everyone involved truly wants to make sure the real killers and rapists, whoever they are, are convicted and punished, then there is no reason why they would not welcome the UK team to perform this role.

In theory, the Thai police and government have the second-most supreme interest in bringing the killers to justice. Because they are charged with protecting their citizens and foreigners visiting Thailand. So if the real killers aren't caught, that means they are still free to do this again. Given that, you would think they would welcome any assistance they can get, as long as it does not interfere or usurp their own role.

I believe that what I've suggested is the best way to balance all the interests and allow that to happen.

Interesting discussion, but doomed to failure before it would even be considered in the case of the police - it would be deemed to "usurp their own role".

[JohnThailandJohn]

Wow, what about reports coming in about this A/C bar. Apparently another murder there new years eve 02/03. Multiple, multiple reports of druggings. Allegedly they are responsible for burning down another competitors bar for being too successful and then running the owners off of the island.

Do some Google searches people. The place is out of control. These people need to be stopped. Some people on the island are now even posting names and photos of the guilty people. You just couldn't make the horror stories up. Its inhumane. Forget these 2 British kids. A world run investigation into every death on the island needs to be done. Simply shocking and to think these people from the A/C bar have been allowed to get away with it for so long... No wonder they didn't try to hide the bodies. This is everyday business for them. If the truth ever comes out the islands are finished and the many people involved should b in jail for life, police included. How can human beings in positions of power employed to serve and protect allow this to happen. Its just not human.

Yep. Just typed in AC Bar Koh Tao mafia and found lots terrible reviews on tripadvisor about this place:

"The men working there kept eyeing up my girlfriend trying to give her free drinks.

Not sure what they where up to, but we felt very uncomfortable there and was glad to leave."

"Terrible establishment. Aggressive locals and there was what appeared to be a turd in the middle on the floor when I was there."

"Unsafe place,very loud, wifi not work,standard room very expencive.smelly shower,very rude stuff,definatly i will never ever come back this place.good points....i didnt find any,worst place in thailand."

"My friend was harrassed at the bar by drug dealer."

"Stay here only if you want to give your money to money grabbing, honourless, rude and horrible people." etc. etc

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g303910-d1098045-r234854599-AC_Resort-Ko_Tao_Surat_Thani_Province.html

7 Reviews all within a week ago ... going back further they look to average about 3 reviews a month. Consider only few people post to Trip Adviser, sounds like tourism must be doing great on Koh Tao despite it being low season in Thailand.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[Fred Flinstone]

The Thai PM has admitted To the UK Pm he is out of his depth

[Artisi]

From above Post #535:

... every police force in the world has a single function, that function is to collect information (evidence) for the purpose of securing a conviction in a court of law. they are not interested in what really happened they are interested in only providing evidence for the prosecutors to use in court to win, they do not collect evidence for the defence they do not collect information for the public, they do not collect proof for family members they collect evidence for the prosecution.

The US Supreme Court determined what has been called a 'Brady disclosure' in 1963. From Wikipedia:

'Brady disclosure' consists of exculpatory or impeaching information and evidence that is material to the guilt or innocence or to the punishment of a defendant. The term comes from the U.S. Supreme Court case, Brady v. Maryland, in which the Supreme Court ruled that suppression by the prosecution of evidence favorable to a defendant who has requested it violates due process. Following Brady, the prosecutor must disclose evidence or information that would prove the innocence of the defendant or would enable the defense to more effectively impeach the credibility of government witnesses. Evidence that would serve to reduce the defendant's sentence must also be disclosed by the prosecution.

nothing in your post alters what was said in my post "The function of the Police force is to collect evidence for the prosecution" this is a direct quote from a lawyer, this is fact , you can argue that the police are there to promote goodwill and deliver Christmas presents to kids in hospital and it will not change the facts

P.S. favourable has a "u" in it and defence is spelled with a "c" and before you argue that you spell it that way in America , the language is English

Agree on the the job of police to gather evidence for prosecutors but to nitpick ... those spellings are correct English unless you are using UK specific (British English) spellings.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/favorable

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/defense?q=defence+

Edit: Could be wrong but always thought the Oxford spelling was the accepted international standard.

Just to nit pick as you do,

favorable

Syllabification: fa·vor·a·ble

Pronunciation: /ˈfāv(ə)rəb(ə)l

/

(British favourable)

Just remind me please where the English language originated (forgetting the German, French, Latin etc. input and the bastardisation (not bastardization) of it by the guys across the other side of the pond).

[outboard]

Agree on the the job of police to gather evidence for prosecutors but to nitpick ... those spellings are correct English unless you are using UK specific (British English) spellings.

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/favorable

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/defense?q=defence+

Edit: Could be wrong but always thought the Oxford spelling was the accepted international standard.

you looked up american spellings on the Oxford dictionary site,

try looking up English -:

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/favourable

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/defence

[Bleacher Bum East]

The debate about the role that the UK government can and should play in the investigation of Hannah and David's death is a legitimate one involving many considerations by all involved. And it is not an easy black-and-white issue to resolve, because what ultimately happens has many ramifications outside this particular case.

My opinion is that the UK investigators should essentially act as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are UK citizens. Here is why:

Many parties (everyone actually) have an interest in bringing Hannah and David's attackers and killers to justice, but the supreme interest is held by their families.

If Hanna and David's families wanted to do so, they could hire a private investigator to collect and examine evidence, search for and interview witnesses, and review any evidence the Thai police was either willing to provide access to or made public.

The PI would have no legal authority to require cooperation from witnesses, search premises, etc., and definitely not to prosecute the case. The PI would be legally acting in a private (non-Thai government or law enforcement) capacity on behalf of the families.

When finished obtaining and analyzing the available evidence, the PI could report back to the families exactly what evidence it has collected and reviewed, as well as what evidence it has not had access to. It could also offer an expert opinion on the quality of that evidence, discrepancies and conflicts contained in the evidence, as well as on police procedures in gathering, handling and analyzing evidence.

The PI could also provide its expert opinion, based on the evidence it has seen and analyzed, as to who committed the crimes (if the PI believes it has sufficient proof to say beyond a reasonable doubt) and who did not commit the crimes (again, if sufficient proof is in hand beyond a reasonable doubt). In the alternative, if the PI does not have sufficient proof to say, in his or her expert opinion, who did or did not commit the crimes beyond a reasonable doubt, the report can state that also.

The PI could then offer all of the evidence it has collected as an independent investigator to both the prosecution and the defense, to use as they wish. Whether it aids the prosecution or the defense should not be of concern, because they are only interested in justice, finding the real killers.

Finally, the PI could observe the trial and compare what is offered as evidence in court with what they discovered in their own investigation. Then they could report back to the families as to whether what went into either convicting or exonerating the accused matched with what they discovered, and deliver an expert opinion as to whether it was a fair verdict, one way or the other.

In this particular case, the UK government's team of investigators can do all of the things I've described above. They can, in essence, be acting as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are citizens of the UK. And they can do so without "participating" or "interfering" with the Thai police, prosecution or judiciary.

If everyone involved truly wants to make sure the real killers and rapists, whoever they are, are convicted and punished, then there is no reason why they would not welcome the UK team to perform this role.

In theory, the Thai police and government have the second-most supreme interest in bringing the killers to justice. Because they are charged with protecting their citizens and foreigners visiting Thailand. So if the real killers aren't caught, that means they are still free to do this again. Given that, you would think they would welcome any assistance they can get, as long as it does not interfere or usurp their own role.

I believe that what I've suggested is the best way to balance all the interests and allow that to happen.

Interesting discussion, but doomed to failure before it would even be considered in the case of the police - it would be deemed to "usurp their own role".

Maybe ... but the UK team has already been given permission to come and "observe", so they have their foot in the door. While in Thailand, they can perform the role I am speaking of with or without the cooperation of the Thai police. If the Thai police allow them full access to the suspects, witnesses, evidence, etc. in a transparent fashion, then that can be included in the report and the families can draw positive conclusions regarding the transparency of the investigation. If they are given partial access, then what they were allowed to review and what they were not allowed to review can be reported on. If the UK team is actively stonewalled, then that can be included in the report and conclusions can be drawn as well.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[Living in a cartoon]

Not directed at anyone in particular, but there is something about the scoffing, know-it-all comments on this crime that remind me of the Lee Aldhouse saga.

UK will never extradite, Thais don't care about crimes on foreigners, the perp will buy his way out, there was a very long list. None of it happened.

It is damn funny reading TV comments though.

GO UK!

[JohnThailandJohn]

Agree on the the job of police to gather evidence for prosecutors but to nitpick ... those spellings are correct English unless you are using UK specific (British English) spellings.

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/favorable

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/defense?q=defence+

Edit: Could be wrong but always thought the Oxford spelling was the accepted international standard.

you looked up american spellings on the Oxford dictionary site,

try looking up English -:

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/favourable

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/defence

Didn't even catch the US in the url when I did a Google search .... seeing how no "UK" in your URLs, it would seem that your spellings are the standard spellings. So, now I agree with all of your post ;-)

[Fred Flinstone]

The Thai PM was heard to say to the England Pm ""its not that easy"

After being asked about the case

Edited October 20, 2014 by Fred Flinstone

[JLCrab]

The Vienna Convention of Consular relations (1963) to which both Thailand and UK are signatories/parties states:

Article 55 --Respect for the laws and regulations of the receiving State

1.Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State. They also have a duty not to interfere in the internal affairs of the State.

There is no indication by inviting representatives of another country to observe assist, or whatever word you choose in a criminal investigation that the host country has waived this right.

[greenchair]

I can see this coming:

UK cop: We must wear gloves.

Thai cop: arai godai, krap

UK cop: We must cover our shoes

Thai cop: arai godai, krap

UK cop: Evidence protected by what?

Thai cop: mai loo, krap

UK cop: You guys have no idea on how to protect evidence and crime scenes!!!

Thai cop: arai wa? You bad falang!

That honeymoon will be over by the time the somtam is ready to be eaten!

UK cop. The dna doesn't match???

THai cop. Mai pen rai, burmese,

mai chai khun thai gdai.

What's this - the pidjin Thai club?

I think you missed the point of the posts.

[Fred Flinstone]

The Vienna Convention of Consular relations (1963) to which both Thailand and UK are signatories/parties states:

Article 55 --Respect for the laws and regulations of the receiving State

1.Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State. They also have a duty not to interfere in the internal affairs of the State.

There is no indication by inviting representatives of another country to observe assist, or whatever word you choose in a criminal investigation that the host country has waived this right.

True-

I feel sorry for the PM he has admitted things in Milan but in a difficult situation

[JohnThailandJohn]

Maybe ... but the UK team has already been given permission to come and "observe", so they have their foot in the door. While in Thailand, they can perform the role I am speaking of with or without the cooperation of the Thai police. If the Thai police allow them full access to the suspects, witnesses, evidence, etc. in a transparent fashion, then that can be included in the report and the families can draw positive conclusions regarding the transparency of the investigation. If they are given partial access, then what they were allowed to review and what they were not allowed to review can be reported on. If the UK team is actively stonewalled, then that can be included in the report and conclusions can be drawn as well.

The last thing the UK wants is to prove Thailand wrong or embarrass them or abuse the permission they are given to observe. Unlike some poster's desire here, the UK doesn't want to cause problems with Thailand or in any way harm their relations. The UK coming is simply a political move to buy time with the skeptics until things blow over and the case is resolved in court.

The UK is not going to try to backdoor the investigation. Not only would they cause problems with Thailand but many countries would be outraged.

The UK has been invited in the past to help Thai police when help was needed to solve a case. I believe they are still working on the Kirsty Jones case ... were UK police have repeatedly complimented Thai Police. This case is not a case where Thais need help to solve and the investigation portion of the case if pretty wrapped up. This was the same with David Carradine from the US were people and family cried cover-up but Thai police didn't need any help and only allowed the FBI to observe despite Thai police working on numerous cases with the FBI.

I could care less who checks or rechecks evidence but you have to be realistic and see the bigger political picture. Even in Mexico where the US operates against drug cartels openly and runs the operations, they are powerless and not even made any demands to get a Marine out of jail there that supposedly crossed the border by accident even though there has been so much publicity and demands from people to do something.

One country is powerless to another country's criminal system and this is the way it should be. No country is going to interfere with another country's criminal process when that country is a friend ... at least not publicly.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[greenchair]

I try to remember each day to make a post in support of justice for david and hannah. They were brutally murdered and did nothing wrong. I see the people who are suspected have grown quieter and quieter everyday.

I see them thinking. " If I make myself seem invisible, I might just get away with this" . They want nothing more than to see us all fighting, while they sit back and enjoy the show.

Stay focused people.

Edited October 20, 2014 by greenchair

[JohnThailandJohn]

Not directed at anyone in particular, but there is something about the scoffing, know-it-all comments on this crime that remind me of the Lee Aldhouse saga.

UK will never extradite, Thais don't care about crimes on foreigners, the perp will buy his way out, there was a very long list. None of it happened.

It is damn funny reading TV comments though.

GO UK!

I get the feeling based on posts here that many posters from the UK have a sense of superiority that goes beyond reason when it comes to how the world now works. Hard to tell with the reincarnation of posters but would bet many of the folks saying no way in the world would he be extradited, because of Thailand's criminal process being corrupted and the conditions in the Thai jails, are the some of the same now thinking the UK would actually interfere with a Thai criminal case.

Edit: No disrespect to Britts ... many citizens of every country tend to believe they are the best. Part human nature and part programming by governments. The Thai cop who initially said a Thai could not commit this crime was no different and his comment has certainly caused a lot of problems including having people from other countries now also need to pound their chest.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[Artisi]

The Vienna Convention of Consular relations (1963) to which both Thailand and UK are signatories/parties states:

Article 55 --Respect for the laws and regulations of the receiving State

1.Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State. They also have a duty not to interfere in the internal affairs of the State.

There is no indication by inviting representatives of another country to observe assist, or whatever word you choose in a criminal investigation that the host country has waived this right.

Absolutely riveting information, however if there is nothing to hide and everything was above board would this need to be spelt out so loudly and reiterated over and over again by all and sundry - most of whom have nothing what-so-ever to do with this side of politics / procedures or co-operation between civilised (so called) countries.

[JLCrab]

The Vienna Convention of Consular relations (1963) to which both Thailand and UK are signatories/parties states:

Article 55 --Respect for the laws and regulations of the receiving State

1.Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State. They also have a duty not to interfere in the internal affairs of the State.

There is no indication by inviting representatives of another country to observe assist, or whatever word you choose in a criminal investigation that the host country has waived this right.

Absolutely riveting information, however if there is nothing to hide and everything was above board would this need to be spelt out so loudly and reiterated over and over again by all and sundry - most of whom have nothing what-so-ever to do with this side of politics / procedures or co-operation between civilised (so called) countries.

Because that has been diplomatic protocol for 50 years and I do not see it changing whether for this case or any other. As to "While in Thailand, they can perform the role I am speaking of with or without the cooperation of the Thai police", there will probably be nothing that the UK contingent can do while on Thai soil without the cooperation of the Thai police ... and the UK folks probably will expect nothing else.

[PaPiPuPePo]

Wow, what about reports coming in about this A/C bar. Apparently another murder there new years eve 02/03. Multiple, multiple reports of druggings. Allegedly they are responsible for burning down another competitors bar for being too successful and then running the owners off of the island.

Do some Google searches people. The place is out of control. These people need to be stopped. Some people on the island are now even posting names and photos of the guilty people. You just couldn't make the horror stories up. Its inhumane. Forget these 2 British kids. A world run investigation into every death on the island needs to be done. Simply shocking and to think these people from the A/C bar have been allowed to get away with it for so long... No wonder they didn't try to hide the bodies. This is everyday business for them. If the truth ever comes out the islands are finished and the many people involved should b in jail for life, police included. How can human beings in positions of power employed to serve and protect allow this to happen. Its just not human.

Yep. Just typed in AC Bar Koh Tao mafia and found lots terrible reviews on tripadvisor about this place:

"The men working there kept eyeing up my girlfriend trying to give her free drinks.

Not sure what they where up to, but we felt very uncomfortable there and was glad to leave."

"Terrible establishment. Aggressive locals and there was what appeared to be a turd in the middle on the floor when I was there."

"Unsafe place,very loud, wifi not work,standard room very expencive.smelly shower,very rude stuff,definatly i will never ever come back this place.good points....i didnt find any,worst place in thailand."

"My friend was harrassed at the bar by drug dealer."

"Stay here only if you want to give your money to money grabbing, honourless, rude and horrible people." etc. etc

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g303910-d1098045-r234854599-AC_Resort-Ko_Tao_Surat_Thani_Province.html

7 Reviews all within a week ago ... going back further they look to average about 3 reviews a month. Consider only few people post to Trip Adviser, sounds like tourism must be doing great on Koh Tao despite it being low season in Thailand.

Considering only few people post to Trip Advisor, one could just as easily assume that a much larger percentage have negative reviews.

You're parading a guess as a near-certainty. So a long stretch in order to make a pro-tourism statement. And you wonder why you're perceived as a shill.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Yep. Just typed in AC Bar Koh Tao mafia and found lots terrible reviews on tripadvisor about this place:

"The men working there kept eyeing up my girlfriend trying to give her free drinks.

Not sure what they where up to, but we felt very uncomfortable there and was glad to leave."

"Terrible establishment. Aggressive locals and there was what appeared to be a turd in the middle on the floor when I was there."

"Unsafe place,very loud, wifi not work,standard room very expencive.smelly shower,very rude stuff,definatly i will never ever come back this place.good points....i didnt find any,worst place in thailand."

"My friend was harrassed at the bar by drug dealer."

"Stay here only if you want to give your money to money grabbing, honourless, rude and horrible people." etc. etc

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g303910-d1098045-r234854599-AC_Resort-Ko_Tao_Surat_Thani_Province.html

7 Reviews all within a week ago ... going back further they look to average about 3 reviews a month. Consider only few people post to Trip Adviser, sounds like tourism must be doing great on Koh Tao despite it being low season in Thailand.

Considering only few people post to Trip Advisor, one could just as easily assume that a much larger percentage have negative reviews.

You're parading a guess as a near-certainty. So a long stretch in order to make a pro-tourism statement. And you wonder why you're perceived as a shill.

I apologize for thinking the sarcasm would be obvious and not go over your's or other's head.

[PaPiPuPePo]

P.S. favourable has a "u" in it and defence is spelled with a "c" and before you argue that you spell it that way in America , the language is English

What you're saying here is not that these words must be spelled the English way in England, but everywhere, so that every "center" in the USA needs to be re-spelled "centre," and so on? You're opposing "America" (i.e. the US of which) and English.

I guess having claim to the place of origin of a language has no bearing on one's ability to communicate logically in it.

[hardyh]

I could care less who checks or rechecks evidence but you have to be realistic and see the bigger political picture.

So you do care? Or do you mean couldn't (could not)?....

Edited October 20, 2014 by hardyh

[PaPiPuPePo]

Yep. Just typed in AC Bar Koh Tao mafia and found lots terrible reviews on tripadvisor about this place:

"The men working there kept eyeing up my girlfriend trying to give her free drinks.

Not sure what they where up to, but we felt very uncomfortable there and was glad to leave."

"Terrible establishment. Aggressive locals and there was what appeared to be a turd in the middle on the floor when I was there."

"Unsafe place,very loud, wifi not work,standard room very expencive.smelly shower,very rude stuff,definatly i will never ever come back this place.good points....i didnt find any,worst place in thailand."

"My friend was harrassed at the bar by drug dealer."

"Stay here only if you want to give your money to money grabbing, honourless, rude and horrible people." etc. etc

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g303910-d1098045-r234854599-AC_Resort-Ko_Tao_Surat_Thani_Province.html

7 Reviews all within a week ago ... going back further they look to average about 3 reviews a month. Consider only few people post to Trip Adviser, sounds like tourism must be doing great on Koh Tao despite it being low season in Thailand.

Considering only few people post to Trip Advisor, one could just as easily assume that a much larger percentage have negative reviews.

You're parading a guess as a near-certainty. So a long stretch in order to make a pro-tourism statement. And you wonder why you're perceived as a shill.

I apologize for thinking the sarcasm would be obvious and not go over your's or other's head.

Well, interesting then that having read a number of your posts (though I admit I'm now skipping most of them after reading the first sentence) I assumed it wasn't meant as such.

[BoristheBlade]

When under martial law, the Bangkok Post newspaper is printing daily articles questioning the Koh Tao investigation, in my opinion speaks volumes.

[jdinasia]

The debate about the role that the UK government can and should play in the investigation of Hannah and David's death is a legitimate one involving many considerations by all involved. And it is not an easy black-and-white issue to resolve, because what ultimately happens has many ramifications outside this particular case.

My opinion is that the UK investigators should essentially act as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are UK citizens. Here is why:

Many parties (everyone actually) have an interest in bringing Hannah and David's attackers and killers to justice, but the supreme interest is held by their families.

If Hanna and David's families wanted to do so, they could hire a private investigator to collect and examine evidence, search for and interview witnesses, and review any evidence the Thai police was either willing to provide access to or made public.

The PI would have no legal authority to require cooperation from witnesses, search premises, etc., and definitely not to prosecute the case. The PI would be legally acting in a private (non-Thai government or law enforcement) capacity on behalf of the families.

When finished obtaining and analyzing the available evidence, the PI could report back to the families exactly what evidence it has collected and reviewed, as well as what evidence it has not had access to. It could also offer an expert opinion on the quality of that evidence, discrepancies and conflicts contained in the evidence, as well as on police procedures in gathering, handling and analyzing evidence.

The PI could also provide its expert opinion, based on the evidence it has seen and analyzed, as to who committed the crimes (if the PI believes it has sufficient proof to say beyond a reasonable doubt) and who did not commit the crimes (again, if sufficient proof is in hand beyond a reasonable doubt). In the alternative, if the PI does not have sufficient proof to say, in his or her expert opinion, who did or did not commit the crimes beyond a reasonable doubt, the report can state that also.

The PI could then offer all of the evidence it has collected as an independent investigator to both the prosecution and the defense, to use as they wish. Whether it aids the prosecution or the defense should not be of concern, because they are only interested in justice, finding the real killers.

Finally, the PI could observe the trial and compare what is offered as evidence in court with what they discovered in their own investigation. Then they could report back to the families as to whether what went into either convicting or exonerating the accused matched with what they discovered, and deliver an expert opinion as to whether it was a fair verdict, one way or the other.

In this particular case, the UK government's team of investigators can do all of the things I've described above. They can, in essence, be acting as private investigators on behalf of Hannah and David's family, who are citizens of the UK. And they can do so without "participating" or "interfering" with the Thai police, prosecution or judiciary.

If everyone involved truly wants to make sure the real killers and rapists, whoever they are, are convicted and punished, then there is no reason why they would not welcome the UK team to perform this role.

In theory, the Thai police and government have the second-most supreme interest in bringing the killers to justice. Because they are charged with protecting their citizens and foreigners visiting Thailand. So if the real killers aren't caught, that means they are still free to do this again. Given that, you would think they would welcome any assistance they can get, as long as it does not interfere or usurp their own role.

I believe that what I've suggested is the best way to balance all the interests and allow that to happen.

Interesting discussion, but doomed to failure before it would even be considered in the case of the police - it would be deemed to "usurp their own role".

Maybe ... but the UK team has already been given permission to come and "observe", so they have their foot in the door. While in Thailand, they can perform the role I am speaking of with or without the cooperation of the Thai police. If the Thai police allow them full access to the suspects, witnesses, evidence, etc. in a transparent fashion, then that can be included in the report and the families can draw positive conclusions regarding the transparency of the investigation. If they are given partial access, then what they were allowed to review and what they were not allowed to review can be reported on. If the UK team is actively stonewalled, then that can be included in the report and conclusions can be drawn as well.

No.

Overstepping the duties agreed to diplomatically is not something that they can do.

[Artisi]

The Vienna Convention of Consular relations (1963) to which both Thailand and UK are signatories/parties states:

Article 55 --Respect for the laws and regulations of the receiving State

1.Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State. They also have a duty not to interfere in the internal affairs of the State.

There is no indication by inviting representatives of another country to observe assist, or whatever word you choose in a criminal investigation that the host country has waived this right.

Absolutely riveting information, however if there is nothing to hide and everything was above board would this need to be spelt out so loudly and reiterated over and over again by all and sundry - most of whom have nothing what-so-ever to do with this side of politics / procedures or co-operation between civilised (so called) countries.

Because that has been diplomatic protocol for 50 years and I do not see it changing whether for this case or any other. As to "While in Thailand, they can perform the role I am speaking of with or without the cooperation of the Thai police", there will probably be nothing that the UK contingent can do while on Thai soil without the cooperation of the Thai police ... and the UK folks probably will expect nothing else.

You missed the point - most of us know it's diplomatic protocol as does the British government. My point is why is the Thailand government and many of its underling with didly-squat to do with it making such a fuss.

Would you accept that maybe - just maybe they have screwed the investigation and it's now a face saving exercise - nothing to do with diplomatic protocol?

All Phayuth needed to do way back was - keep this mouth buttoned on the proceedings of this case and ask the Britain government if they would like to send a team of police / forensic people to OBSERVE the ongoing investigation of the murder of 2 of their subjects. Problem solved - no need to even raise the subject of protocol etc etc.

The cat is now out of the bag due to the amateur handling of this problem and a vast number of people from around the world are thinking that something is on the nose - and rightly so.

[blowin]

Wow, what about reports coming in about this A/C bar. Apparently another murder there new years eve 02/03. Multiple, multiple reports of druggings. Allegedly they are responsible for burning down another competitors bar for being too successful and then running the owners off of the island.

Do some Google searches people. The place is out of control. These people need to be stopped. Some people on the island are now even posting names and photos of the guilty people. You just couldn't make the horror stories up. Its inhumane. Forget these 2 British kids. A world run investigation into every death on the island needs to be done. Simply shocking and to think these people from the A/C bar have been allowed to get away with it for so long... No wonder they didn't try to hide the bodies. This is everyday business for them. If the truth ever comes out the islands are finished and the many people involved should b in jail for life, police included. How can human beings in positions of power employed to serve and protect allow this to happen. Its just not human.

Yep. Just typed in AC Bar Koh Tao mafia and found lots terrible reviews on tripadvisor about this place:

"The men working there kept eyeing up my girlfriend trying to give her free drinks.

Not sure what they where up to, but we felt very uncomfortable there and was glad to leave."

"Terrible establishment. Aggressive locals and there was what appeared to be a turd in the middle on the floor when I was there."

"Unsafe place,very loud, wifi not work,standard room very expencive.smelly shower,very rude stuff,definatly i will never ever come back this place.good points....i didnt find any,worst place in thailand."

"My friend was harrassed at the bar by drug dealer."

"Stay here only if you want to give your money to money grabbing, honourless, rude and horrible people." etc. etc

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g303910-d1098045-r234854599-AC_Resort-Ko_Tao_Surat_Thani_Province.html

7 Reviews all within a week ago ... going back further they look to average about 3 reviews a month. Consider only few people post to Trip Adviser, sounds like tourism must be doing great on Koh Tao despite it being low season in Thailand.

Considering only few people post to Trip Advisor, one could just as easily assume that a much larger percentage have negative reviews.

You're parading a guess as a near-certainty. So a long stretch in order to make a pro-tourism statement. And you wonder why you're perceived as a shill.

Go look at the KT forum on Trip advisor and see tread 'Is Kho Toa still open ' and see all the censorship . I questioned this with Trip advisor and they say 2 members can object to a comment and its with drawn. The was a link from a UK government site warning about dangers on the island that was withdrawn

and taken down. I don't think you need Scotland yard to figure whats going on there as one business leader on KT stated' we need damage limitations to protect the island '.

On a separate point when i saw the picture of the damage done to Hannah face the first day I said to my wife this not just rape and murder this was the work of someone who hated her or hated women. It happens sadly all the time rape and murder but how often do you see the victim disfigured like she was. This is not a crime of passion this was a crime of hatred thats why I don't believe 2 small guys from Burma having a beer and playing music on the beach did this because they fancied some fun? But one thing I am glad of is this has not gone away like the business people on KT wanted and talking to you some times money can't buy you everything maybe you will find out soon!

[JohnThailandJohn]

I could care less who checks or rechecks evidence but you have to be realistic and see the bigger political picture.

So you do care? Or do you mean couldn't (could not)?....

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/could+care+less