Is Germany trying to influence the Dutch investigation on downed MH17?

[webfact]

Is Germany trying to influence the Dutch investigation on downed MH17?

BERLIN: -- BND is the German version of the CIA. Malaysian Airlines flight 17 was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine. All 288 onboard died. Accused of shooting down the plane was the Russian speaking separatists group in the Eastern Ukraine.

As first reported on the Russian TV network RT based on another report by Germany's magazine "Der Spiegel: Germany's BND foreign intelligence agency says a local militia shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine in July. The BND is said to possess “ample evidence," though none of it has been made public.

The statement was made on October 8, when Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) president Gerhard Schindler was holding a secret meeting with members of the parliamentary control committee, the German daily reported on Sunday.

He claimed the militia fired a rocket from a BUK defense missile system which it had captured from a Ukrainian base. It then exploded next to the plane, according to the report.

“Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence,” the report added.

However, no “evidence” has yet been made public, and the BND has not made any official statements on the matter.

At the same meeting, Schindler reportedly said that certain intelligence on the crash provided by the Ukrainian side was false, adding that “this can be explained in detail.” However, he did not give much credit to Russia’s evidence either.

Full story: http://www.eturbonews.com/51647/germany-trying-influence-dutch-investigation-downed-mh17

-- eTN 2014-10-20

[TVGerry]

The Germans are just revealing what we've known all along. The thing is, even if they provide hard evidence, the Russians and all their lap dogs will say the evidence are faked anyway.

[rebelplatoon]

Yes they are. In their report they say there was evidence of bullet holes in the cockpit. Wonder how bullet holes make it 10 K up? Unless it was the Ukrainian fighter jets that were in the proximity....?

[HUAHIN62]

Yes they are. In their report they say there was evidence of bullet holes in the cockpit. Wonder how bullet holes make it 10 K up? Unless it was the Ukrainian fighter jets that were in the proximity....?

I don't know what happened but here is an interesting bit from someone thats neutral. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007?cmp=rss&partner=sky

[craigt3365]

Let's try to stay away from conspiracy theories and other troll posts.

[Barin]

The Germans are just revealing what we've known all along. The thing is, even if they provide hard evidence, the Russians and all their lap dogs will say the evidence are faked anyway.

The Germans are saying:

At the same meeting, Schindler reportedly said that certain intelligence on the crash provided by the Ukrainian side was false, adding that “this can be explained in detail.”

[rubl]

Questions have been asked in Dutch parliament, but the government will not let itself deflect from it's current investigation at this moment. Since the Netherlands is the leader in this international investigation, it tries to restrain itself and be objective.

Run this news item in Dutch through google translate when you're interested.

http://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/3907786/coalitie-blokkeert-hoorzitting-mh17.html

[bkkcanuck8]

It was shot down by a UFO in a clandestine move to undermine Russia - which although technically inferior is seen as a future threat....

[Johpa]

I still find it rather difficult to believe that some random militia group would have the knowledge to (1) initiate and calibrate targeting system, (2) acquire targeting, (3) relay targeting data to missile system, and (4) initiate a successful missile launch.

[F430murci]

I still find it rather difficult to believe that some random militia group would have the knowledge to (1) initiate and calibrate targeting system, (2) acquire targeting, (3) relay targeting data to missile system, and (4) initiate a successful missile launch.

??? There were guys living in the jungle and rice patties 50 years ago using SAMs to take out fighters. A 777 is a big target.

[bkkcanuck8]

I still find it rather difficult to believe that some random militia group would have the knowledge to (1) initiate and calibrate targeting system, (2) acquire targeting, (3) relay targeting data to missile system, and (4) initiate a successful missile launch.

point, click, boom....

[Johpa]

I still find it rather difficult to believe that some random militia group would have the knowledge to (1) initiate and calibrate targeting system, (2) acquire targeting, (3) relay targeting data to missile system, and (4) initiate a successful missile launch.

??? There were guys living in the jungle and rice patties 50 years ago using SAMs to take out fighters. A 777 is a big target.

This is not some shoulder fired missile, that uses line of sight targeting at low flying aircraft fired by some infantryman in the jungle. The North Vietnamese used Russian advisers to assist with the firing of similar missiles over North Vietnam at higher flying aircraft. That was what the Son Tay mission was all about. Edited October 20, 2014 by Johpa

[manarak]

I still find it rather difficult to believe that some random militia group would have the knowledge to (1) initiate and calibrate targeting system, (2) acquire targeting, (3) relay targeting data to missile system, and (4) initiate a successful missile launch.

The so-called "militia" are for the most part separatist soldiers, many of whom have been trained by either Ukraine or Russia to use such systems.

[F430murci]

I still find it rather difficult to believe that some random militia group would have the knowledge to (1) initiate and calibrate targeting system, (2) acquire targeting, (3) relay targeting data to missile system, and (4) initiate a successful missile launch.

??? There were guys living in the jungle and rice patties 50 years ago using SAMs to take out fighters. A 777 is a big target.

This is not some shoulder fired missile, that uses line of sight targeting at low flying aircraft fired by some infantryman in the jungle. The North Vietnamese used Russian advisers to assist with the firing of similar missiles over North Vietnam at higher flying aircraft. That was what the Son Tay mission was all about.

While I am no expert, I would think hitting a 777 with today's technology would be easier than hitting an F4 zipping along at mach 1.X or a B-52 at high altitude with 60s or 70s technology.

Hey look, the instructional pamphlet for the BUK is apparently online . . . These guys may be poor and/or uneducated, but being poor and uneducated has never stopped all these crazy third worlders from finding ways to operate weaponry systems in the past, especially when the instructional pamphlet is online.

----------

Need to learn to launch a BUK missile quick? Look online.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/07/30/need-to-fire-a-buk-missile-look-online/

[MW72]

I still find it rather difficult to believe that some random militia group would have the knowledge to (1) initiate and calibrate targeting system, (2) acquire targeting, (3) relay targeting data to missile system, and (4) initiate a successful missile launch.

Hardly a random militia group. Many trained, supplied and advised by the Russians. There are also large numbers who defected from the Ukrainian army.

Sent from my KFTT using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lovetotravel]

I still find it rather difficult to believe that some random militia group would have the knowledge to (1) initiate and calibrate targeting system, (2) acquire targeting, (3) relay targeting data to missile system, and (4) initiate a successful missile launch.

Hardly a random militia group. Many trained, supplied and advised by the Russians. There are also large numbers who defected from the Ukrainian army.

Sent from my KFTT using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

And a militia group that was known to have a BUK system as several planes were shot down in the same area before MH17. Pretty hard evidence there.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5914139/ukrainian-rebels-shot-down-two-planes-in-the-last-month

There's a "but" that makes these two cases very distinct from MH17, though — the AN-30 and ILl-6 were shot down by MANPADS, which stands for man-portable air-defense systems, a small missile launcher you carry on your shoulder. It can only fire to an altitude of about 11,500 feet, but MH17 was flying at 33,000 feet. That's way, way outside of the range of shoulder-fired MANPADS missiles.

That's why, at first, people were wondering if rebels even had the capability to shoot down a high-flying commercial airliner like MH17. But there was another incident just on Monday, July 14, that did not get very much attention at the time. That day, over eastern Ukraine, an Antonov AN-26 Ukrainian military transport plane was hit by a missile while flying over eastern Ukraine — at 21,000 feet altitude. That's far beyond the range of a shoulder-fired system like the MANPADS.

http://www.businessinsider.sg/ukraine-separatists-have-shot-down-multiple-aircraft-over-the-past-month-2014-7/

But gotta love this one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703873/We-shot-MH17-thinking-Ukrainian-cargo-plane-Sensational-admission-pro-Russian-says-realised-mistake-came-bodies-children-not-military-crew.html

[RTH10260]

Yes they are. In their report they say there was evidence of bullet holes in the cockpit. Wonder how bullet holes make it 10 K up? Unless it was the Ukrainian fighter jets that were in the proximity....?

I believe that the term 'bullet' is a bad translation of the report, used in place of fragments. I understand that todays anti-aircraft missiles are not designed to hit their target and blow up, but to arrive in near vicinity and explode, and sending a hail of fragments ('bullets') out to hit and destroy the target from the outside, letting the travel forces start tearing the target apart at the damaged areas. Edited October 21, 2014 by RTH10260

[manarak]

Yes they are. In their report they say there was evidence of bullet holes in the cockpit. Wonder how bullet holes make it 10 K up? Unless it was the Ukrainian fighter jets that were in the proximity....?

I believe that the term 'bullet' is a bad translation of the report, used in place of fragments. I understand that todays anti-aircraft missiles are not designed to hit their target and blow up, but to arrive in near vicinity and explode, and sending a hail of fragments ('bullets') out to hit and destroy the target from the outside, letting the travel forces start tearing the target apart at the damaged areas.

Yes, but... the photo of a part of the cockpit shows holes that are aligned and have regular intervals, and the tip of one wing is damaged in the same manner as if it had been grazed by shots. Incidentially, the angle corresponds to the impacts on the cockpit... look on google for pictures.

If the pictures are genuine, I find the proof quite "irrefutable" as the BND director put it.

There was a recent meeting between Merkel and Putin in Milan which was very long, and then news came out that gas deliveries for Ukraine during winter have been agreed on.

The BND declaration might be a part in the puzzle, to signal Putin that Germany is not ready to take part in the big lie.

The only fighter jets in the area were Ukrainian, so if there are bullet holes on the cockpit, it leaves little doubt as to who shot the airplane down.

But the EU and NATO *want* Ukraine, so they are not interested in accusing Ukraine, but evidence against Ukraine is piling up, and Western media grow increasingly silent about it.

Let's remember that the Maidan shootings were also orchestrated by western Ukrainian far-right extremists (nazis) against Yanukovitch, but that fact has also been covered up by western media and then brushed under the media carpet.

My hunch is that Russia had nothing to do with shooting down Malaysian's 777.

Regarding "influencing the Dutch investigation" - I don't know if such thing is even possible because if the BND found out about the downing, then the Dutch also found out.

But maybe the Dutch were still toying with the idea to be a teamplayer with NATO and to publish results that were not in line with the investigation's findings and Merkel wanted to preempt that by letting the BND release that declaration.