Khao San Road Degrees

[adjan jb]

adjan jb, with an avatar like that, you don't need to actually abuse people. The avatar says it all.

My gawd, you are everywhere Georgie-Porgie. You haunt me like a nightmare.

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, Georgie-Porgie, why did you crawl up here from the Bear pit? Caught the smell of fresh blood by any chance, or just getting lonely down there?

[adjan jb]

Yes, Georgie-Porgie, why did you crawl up here from the Bear pit? Caught the smell of fresh blood by any chance, or just getting lonely down there? 

My apologies for attempting to hi jack this thread also.

Back in the bear pit with you...

Edited March 22, 2004 by IT Manager

[Georgie-Porgie]

I think that I finally chased the gentleman off for a few days (that is how long it will take him to completely forget his latest humiliation), and no one else is dumb enough to go down there.

Oh, oh. I think I hear ###### and Dr. Patpong coming to get me and bring me back!

Down the back of the bus maggot.

Edited March 22, 2004 by IT Manager

[Pink Mist]

Can hear the chains rattling Georgie, the turnkeys are coming

[Georgie-Porgie]

...and Doctor P's gotten good with that whip!

Ouch... be careful Doc I'm just editing it.

IT/Admin

Edited March 22, 2004 by IT Manager

[Guest timbee]

The concept of purchaseable degrees reminds me of a business card I was once handed in India ...

The card noted the gentleman's name in the usual way, and then put his academic qualifications behind his name:

Mr Shreekant Panday, ACA (Failed)

Apparently in populous India it is a noteworthy achievement even to have made it as far as the exams, let alone passed them!

[makavelithedon]

Hi Robert,

I would like to add a reply (of which I hope is a little more sober) in regard to your original thread.

I have recently taken some courses here in Thailand so that it ensures I have a good grounding in becoming a teacher. I have the genuine pieces of paper you were originally mulling over, although I admit that they have no relevance to teaching English, and I have never had the slightest interest in a career of which they are of use!!

After reading your opening remarks I thought yeh ok, you have had a fair amount of experience elsewhere, and as many teachers will know (bar the few we can count working abroad with a BA in Education) the degree is only of any relevance for the paperwork in this field.

The main difference between us though is that I DO WANT TO TEACH first and foremost, It has just taken me a long time to realise that this is what I want to do!

To say that the root of the huge number of problems in the Thai education system is simply down to a load of backpackers (degree or otherwise) is hugely simplistic and pathetically naive. However, I think first and foremost unmotivated people e.g backpackers or others short of cash, who have not the slightest interest in teaching others are certainly dragging down the reputation of foreign staff. Your statement in not wanting to really do it therefore would greatly deter me from being positive in regard to you teaching in the "normal school system".

Most private schools here though would take you with your experience- to teach business people or those wishing to learn as adults etc and the money is very fair why not try that avenue and you may find that with a more flexible schedule you actually start to enjoy it? Please leave the educating of children to those of us who have a desire to do it and integrate (where accepted) into the Thai school system with all it entails-Degree, no degree, PHD, MA or otherwise!!!

I would also advise you if you have not done so already, to enrol on the CELTA teaching programme and the other short courses that are of great benefit. They can always improve a teacher however long they have been teaching, not to mention increase your prospects in the private arena.

As I have stated previously though, there really is no reason why you would not have a job at such establishments as Nava english school within 30 minutes if your in the likes of Bangkok, and they will help you with the legal stuff like the work permit if your prepared to pay for it, you do not need the 60,000 baht a year salary or whatever it is now- teachers have a special application system according to one of the private schools I visited where these rates don't apply!

Hope some of this helps,

Regards

Mak

[royar2002]

Over the past few years, people have obtained their 'degrees' from Khao San Road, myself also very recently. I am looking to apply for a new job as an English teacher. With things getting a lot stricter here right now, what choice would you say is the best one?

your 'degrees' may be work in jail!

[h5kaf]

I agree with most of the serious comments on this topic. The original questioner condemns himself with his opening comments and questions. Looking for the easy option usually lands people in trouble of one sort or another. Unfortunately the issue of 'teaching' whether it be of English or other subjects is of vital importance to the future of Thailand, and many less than competent 'teachers' are currently in post doing their best which is not good enough. The Thai authorities seem to believe that a degree (or two) will solve the problem. They are mistaken. Just as they are mistaken about the TEFL type qualification as a basis for teaching English. Teacher Training (perhaps before or after a degree course) is the surest way to reduce the risk of poor teaching. At least properly trained teachers (usually a 2 or 3 year course with degree like certification) should have some idea of learning processes and how to facilitate learning in students.

Having said this I know some superb teachers who are highly skilled and in great demand for private tuition, who are not degree holders. I am sure that these 'professionals' would enhance the staff profile of any school. They will never get the chance and the students will never experience this level of excellence whilst attention is concentrated upon the packaging rather than the performance. There is room for both degree qualified teachers and non-degree teachers the criterion should be performance ability. Sorry to be a bit of a bore but this whole discussion area is of huge importance in every country in the world and particularly here in Paradise.

[Ajarn]

Just wanted to add that some of the best teachers I've hired have been backpackers... There are some great 'natural' teachers out there. Some of these backpackers are just what many Thai students need...fun, open minds open to learning, a true desire to help others to learn, and an ability- sometimes natural, sometimes trained- to illustrate a teaching point in such a way that the student will understand and gain increased skills in the subject. This is the same basic idea for any teacher/trainer teaching/training anything....

A good teacher English teacher can be from any nationality. In my experience in training teachers to teach English, some things pop up regularly...

1. Native speakers know what's right and wrong, but they can't remember why... Ask your friend to name and give examples of the 12 verb tenses, for example...

Most need to take a refresher course in grammar....Maybe part of the reason CELTA uses grammar questions in their screening, and why their courses focus so much on grammar, and illustrating it successfully in the classroom

2. Foreign teachers often know much more about English grammar than many native-speaker English teachers, but they lack the cultural experience that is the root of English and all other languages. Most are unable to illustrate the various 'flavors' of English as effectively as the native speaker. Roots of idioms and slang are a couple of examples…

3. Students mostly prefer female teachers. Me, too

4. Classroom management is often the key to success, or failure as a teacher.

[p_brownstone]

I certainly agree that a Degree is no guarantee that the recipient is a competent teacher, however it does offer some evidence that the holder has had the discipline to set a personal goal and achieve it; is someone who is planning for the future, not simply content to wander around the world living from hand to mouth.

That said therefore, surely one of the reasons the Thai authorities require that anyone who wishes to teach in Thailand should hold a Degree is not unreasonable in a way. Admittedly a rather sledgehammer approach, but how else to weed out the Banglampoo transients et al who only want a teaching post here to earn a little more money before continuing their self indulgent journey elsewhere in the "third world", or simply to be able to spend a few more months in Thailand - with absolutely no regard for the needs or aspirations of their students?

Finally - and this is something of a pet peeve of mine, but it is not directed at any particular individual - I do wish Farang would not assume that the title "Acharn" can be immediately adopted by anyone who arrives in Thailand and happens to land a teaching job here!

[bentrein]

I'm sorry, but whatever way you choose, it makes you a criminal.

Would you like your own children to be taught by someone who came her for sex, spend all his money in Nana and now pretends to be a teacher? It may not apply to you, but it apply to quite a lot of "teachers" here.

Because I finished a TESL/TEFL certificate which - I agree - isn't an awful lot, but I don't have a bachelors degree in Watermanagement I am a criminal? Hm... See, with this combination I would be able to teach legally in Thailand. Whichever field I have a degree in, as long as I have at least a TESL or TEFL certificate I can obtain a work permit. And I think that is strange.

Ok, I agree that you expect standards for teachers, and as I don't fit in the rules, I will probably have to leave this great country sooner or later.

I am a teacher because I love it - I love teaching, I enjoy the job, and I believe I'm not a bad teacher. Not the best in the world, sure.

I didn't come to this country for sex, I don't spend my money - paid by students on wages around 8000 baht a month - in brothels and bars. I try to live a respectable life by Thai standards. I am respected by the Thais around me.

If I was the only teacher I could afford for my children, I wouldn't mind them being taught by me - yes, as you stated it, a criminal. Because what is it really that I do wrong?

[makavelithedon]

Ajarn, whilst I agree with nearly all that you have posted, especially you reference to grammar, I am surprised as to your comments or lack of them in our primary role in teaching here!

I also found your reference to backpackers a little surprising, but bow to your experience in the matter. I would however add that their primary reason for being here is travel and not a long term commitment to a place they have wished to settle. It is not uncommon for a head of English to have to go in and speak to a class of 11 year olds on a monday morning and tell them their English teacher won't be coming back to teach them for the rest of the year as they have decided Japan or South Korea had an apparently great dance scene! Not the best way for those with honest and a long term commitment to build a sense of professionalism and respect here!!

Yes grammar is important to a non-native speaker as they don't have the trial and error time luxury we posses in our step by step understanding and learning of our own language nor the native interaction that goes with it. However, most of the Thai teachers as mentioned elsewhere in the thread have and do do a very good job in teaching the mechanics of the language. The problem here is the shocking use of the language's primary use-SPEECH and PRONUNCIATION.

Much of Thailand's economy is built on tourism and the interaction with tourists many who although they know English is not their native language either of at which point it is even more important to be clear and precise!! What possible use is it to know a noun phrase from a subject complement if you cannot be understood?

I realise that a blend of the two- along with writing a listening all play in the development of learning, but the empahasis for native speakers who are fairly neutral and competent speakers and I emphasise competent, is improving this area more so than the rest, of which Thai native speakers appear to be doing a very competent job of. That in no way detracts from the fact our grammar should be of a good standard for when it is needed, but it should not be the focal point of our work here.

In reply to some of the other comments on this thread in regard those fortunate enough to hold BA's or MA's in Educational fields. In an ideal world of course this would be the best route to take. But if you look around the educational websites it is quite evident that the need for teachers to meet the recent demand in the global economy to interact with the world's global tongue is so great there simply isn't enough of these highly trained professionals to meet the demand in their own countries let alone that of Asia, and never will be! Couple that with the fact many teachers who are brought up teaching in their own country bestow upon themselves a responsibilty to teach and try and improve the standards of their own children and you end up with us amateur-professionals and very few exported highly trained and gifted people teaching here.

All one can hope for I suppose is that at least a teacher tries his/her best and knows the area in which they should be working and those they should certainly not! I also think as a graduate of the TEFL type program that the course should be double its current length and have a far higher failure rate but I have no doubt bored everyone long enough and apologise if I have gone way off the thread's main topic!

Regards

Mak.

[bentrein]

Well done Mak! Nothing to add. I am Dutch, and am proud to say that I have several times been mistaken - by native speakers - for a native speaker... Or was that just flattery? I'm not that rich, so I don't know why they should flatter me...

[Guest IT Manager]

Interesting comments from everyone. The point about the Teachers with o/s teaching credentials needs pointing up.

In australia, teaching is a very highly UNDERPAID position. Ergo, you must want to do it before going to teachers college/Uni or whatever. That in and of itself demonstrates a pedagogical commitment to the development of minds and capacity to develop thought process.

That to me, symbolises a teacher. Areal honest to goodness want to teach type of person.

[Ajarn]

I certainly agree that a Degree is no guarantee that the recipient is a competent teacher, however it does offer some evidence that the holder has had the discipline to set a personal goal and achieve it; is someone who is planning for the future, not simply content to wander around the world living from hand to mouth.

Yes, very good points. My apologies if I seemed to be dismissing a proper degree. As one who has spent the time in school, I certainly recognize the important and valuable foundation of further learning a good education presents (hopefully).

In saying that, I must add that what I would call my most valuable skills, I got from the experience of teaching itself, rather than listening to lectures. The value in my classroom came from feedback from my teacher and peers, and being able to observe my peers teaching- Man, watching other young teachers just opened up floods of creative ideas!

How often do you get observed as a teacher? Not very often, Right? I know I was always scared to be observed by people I respected, afraid of losing face perhaps....Anyway, after a dozen or so times of being observed, and more importantly, getting consistent good feedback, I became less nervous...sometimes ;-)

I really feel every teacher needs to be observed regularly by folks whom we trust and whom feel comfortable with in listening to their feedback. And, the support goes both ways, in that the observer can also get some fresh ideas (making sure they include that in their feedback to the observed teacher!) This is a key to supporting each other as teachers, I feel. As foreigners here in so many ways, it's important that we network with each other, such as this forum, or by observing our friends teaching. Every teacher has something to teach others, na'?

*****

And Mac, our definitions differ around backpackers, maybe. To me, a backpacker is simply anyone who lives lightly and simply, and the same if they travel, like out of a backpack. I have found many to have very respectable traits.

[Ajarn]

Finally - and this is something of a pet peeve of mine, but it is not directed at any particular individual - I do wish Farang would not assume that the title "Acharn" can be immediately adopted by anyone who arrives in Thailand and happens to land a teaching job here!

I'll leave it up to others to decide for themselves, but after 18 years of being called an Ajarn almost every day here, it's stuck

And so has my nickname, LarryLek.

Up to you which 'lek' or which underlying meaning

[monitorlizard]

Interesting thread. However, people are breaking the law. You are lying and using forged documents. I don't think the parents or the children will appreciate this at all.

I am sure that there are some very talented people out there who have a natural ability. I would highly recommend that you obtain a teaching credential here at one of the international universities. I think it would make you sleep better at night.

Change is in the air. Salaries are increasing for teachers and so are the qualifications. I came across a new web site teachers that is run by a Thai woman who is recruiting qualified teachers in America, Canada, and other English speaking countries. I did notice she is offering a service to schools verfying university degrees.

Sounds like the Khao Sand degrees area thing of the past, urban legend if you will. I do think Thaivisa and others on this forum should warn backpackers wanting to extend their stay in Thailand from using these establishments. They will get into serious trouble and most likely pay a heavy fine and possibly jail time?

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. I would hate to see anyone get into trouble with the law here in Thailand and using for their defense " a poster on a forum said people do it all the time."

I am sure it will be a matter of time when we will be reading posts "I have been busted for a forged teaching document. What do I do?" Who knows it may appear in the Post or Nation.

[makavelithedon]

'And Mac, our definitions differ around backpackers, maybe. To me, a backpacker is simply anyone who lives lightly and simply, and the same if they travel, like out of a backpack. I have found many to have very respectable traits'.

Yep, I think our intrepetation certainly is different Ajarn, I must say it seemed a tad strange with the other points you raised with the rest of your thread- Apologies.

To me they are those simply looking to extend their stay by whatever is the easiest means possible before moving on, a 'year out traveller' type if you like. The very essence of that make them IMO not only unsuitable for this job but should not be suitable for TEFL or other courses of this nature.

The trouble is if you look at many of the companies advertising these courses around the net this appears the very market they seem to be pitching at!!!!

I think the governing bodies of these courses should become much more stringent with not only the enrolment criterion but the whole application process for being a registered provider. This irresponsibility is making the job here for any genuine foreigner with long term aspirations more and more impossible.

In the province I am currently residing, there has been a debate for the last few weeks in the local paper in regard to backpacker types and the problems a school with it first intake of native speakers has had. They have been very dissapointed to put it mildly, and this is not just teaching attitude or motivation, but smoking in front of children and coming to work dressed like you were going for a day at the beach! In other words, not an ounce of understanding or respect for the culture or the profession they appear to have latched onto in order to earn enough for the next place of interest.

I just wonder what sort of reception, support and time the teacher who applies at this school for the new year will get now?

To me, a fake certificate used by an experienced and proven teacher to gain a work permit simply pales into insignificance compared to this type of person!

Maybe just another stone in the pond!

Regards,

MAK

[h5kaf]

On a side issue raised by Mak's contribution.

There are many more qualified and very experienced teachers all over the world than many people realise. They have left the teaching profession because they are underpaid and undervalued with the work becoming increasingly more stressful. They now earn more money and are more appreciated doing other types of work - driving taxis, running businesses etc. Yet in the USA, UK, Many European countries and Australia there is a grave shortage of teachers for schools.

Here in Thailand it seems that the authorities are determined to join the ranks of the other countries who want highly professional and qualified teachers but don't want to pay them their worth or make their working conditions less stressful.

Add another issue to the pot - the minimum taxable salaries of foreigners as published by the immigration authorities. Government schools do not need to pay these minumum wages as teachers are in a special category. They can be paid the 25K - 30K per month, get a visa which requires visa runs, and have the privilege of paying tax as if they were on the minimum stipulated wage levels. What a wonderful scenario to encourage foreigners to teach here in Thailand, whether they be qualified, unqualified, backpackers or others.

[Ajarn]

'And Mac, our definitions differ around backpackers, maybe. To me, a backpacker is simply anyone who lives lightly and simply, and the same if they travel, like out of a backpack. I have found many to have very respectable traits'.

Yep, I think our interpretation certainly is different Ajarn, I must say it seemed a tad strange with the other points you raised with the rest of your thread- Apologies.

To me they are those simply looking to extend their stay by whatever is the easiest means possible before moving on, a 'year out traveller' type if you like.  The very essence of that make them IMO not only unsuitable for this job but should not be suitable for TEFL or other courses of this nature.

Please excuse my frankness, but it seems to me that your judgments are a bit broad, and maybe unbalanced. You seem to bringing in negative judgments and spreading it over an awfully huge area of people- travelers who travel at a grassroots level, and travelers who try to work their way around the world. In my experience, the negative traits you propose are just as spread-out through any other group of people I've had contact with- including degreed teachers with MA's and PhD's....

"

I think the governing bodies of these courses should become much more stringent with not only the enrolment criteria but the whole application process for being a registered provider.  This irresponsibility is making the job here for any genuine foreigner with long term aspirations more and more impossible."

I completely agree. The impact a teacher has on people is often enormous, and teachers should be screened and monitored throughout.

In the province I am currently residing, there has been a debate for the last few weeks in the local paper in regard to backpacker types and the problems a school with it first intake of native speakers has had. They have been very dissapointed  to put it mildly, and this is not just teaching attitude or motivation, but smoking in front of children and coming to work dressed like you were going for a day at the beach!  In other words, not an ounce of understanding or respect for the culture or the profession they appear to have latched onto in order to earn enough for the next place of interest.

In my own experience, the 'backpacker' type of teacher is far less likely to be disrespectful of, or lacking interest in local culture than, lets say, single males (qualified teachers) teaching and living in Bangkok. I rarely had this problem happen because most of our teachers had common sense, and of course, our training included info about the culture here. In schools where there is some good farang management, the teacher is much more likely to get training and support of any kind.

I also think that when Thais are talking about backpackers, they have a whole different criterion than either of us. And there are lots of behind the scenes politicking going on among any group of Thais I've ever worked with. In some cases, complaints from some people aren't really honest, and are more a reflection of some other hidden agenda or prejudice. Sorry if that sounds so terrible to say, but I do have many years of working in Thai offices and schools. The hardcore stuff that sometimes goes on in schools is scary. Not everyone, everywhere, of course, but plenty to keep any foreign contract teacher in most schools to always feel they must tread on eggshells. I've had many friends get forced out by this stuff.....

[Ajarn]

Here in Thailand it seems that the authorities are determined to join the ranks of the other countries who want highly professional and qualified teachers but don't want to pay them their worth or make their working conditions less stressful.   

Now you're opening a can of worms!

It's tough for many Thai teachers to think that farang teachers are not getting enough salary...Afterall, most farangs get 2 or 3 times the salary of Thai teachers....Or such is the reasoning I often hear...

But, what many don't know about is that there are many other perks that Thai teachers are guaranteed that farangs don't get...For example, most farangs teach at least 15-20 classroom hours a week, while Thai ajarns (in universities) are only required to teach a maximum of 9 hours per week, and are guaranteed at least 300 baht per hour (1000+ per hour is also not as uncommon as some think) over 9 hours. Thai ajarns also get any karachakan (govt official) benefit, like welfare, special work stipends, medical, cheap loans, job advancements...There are many other differences, too. As in most countries, teachers are considered underpaid in terms of salary, but Thai teachers seem to do okay on the perks, being also karachakans....

Salaries for farangs have been going up over the years everywhere except the govt schools. To me, potentially the worst job would be a farang teacher in a govt prathom or mathayom school...I'm not referring to other stuff, like the value in being immersed in another culture. For many, though, that's good enough to balance the minimal pay and support.

I hope that the govt salaries will go up, but there's little reason yet, for them to pay more...As one university dept head said to me (cmu), "Why should we pay more when we already have so many farangs trying to get jobs here"

I sense this will only change if farangs stop applying at the present salaries. But living and working in Thailand is very seductive to many, and working in most universities can be pretty kick-back, if you stay between the cracks

Add another issue to the pot - the minimum taxable salaries of foreigners as published by the immigration authorities.  Government schools do not need to pay these minumum wages as teachers are in a special category.  They can be paid the 25K - 30K per month, get a visa which requires visa runs, and have the privilege of paying tax as if they were on the minimum stipulated wage levels.  What a wonderful scenario to encourage foreigners to teach here in Thailand, whether they be qualified, unqualified, backpackers or others.

Is this true about farangs teaching in Govt schools at the same wages, but still being required to pay taxes on 50,000 + ? I hadn't heard that at all, but, I do expect there to be exceptions for teachers...Where did you read about this? I'm still wondering how it will play out... The government has until July to measure the wind again, it seems...

By the way, farang government contract teachers are still eligible for a one-year visa stamp, and no visa running is needed. Same as always

[bluebear]

One thing that no one seems to have mentioned so far is the actual copy degrees themselves. I have seen a few of them and to be honest they are shit quality and for that you are expected to pay 3000-4000B.

You can do far better at home with MS Word and a laser printer. They also do TESOL certs as well and they are as bad as the degrees.

All the degrees I saw where the same basic layout with just the names of the university, student and the logos different. I almost laughed out loud when I saw them. They also offer TESOL and CELTA certs. I have an original through attending a course and their version was a horribly scanned blurred copy. Not worth the paper it was printed on.

If someone in the Ministry of Labour is stupid enough to think these are originals then I have to ask one question - who brother is he to get that job?

As for the school telling people to get the fake degree - what do you think will happen when the ministry of Labour know its a fake and start asking questions. Your school will drop you in it faster than a hot brick. Loyalty? HA!

[Ajarn]

As for the school telling people to get the fake degree - what do you think will happen when the ministry of Labour know its a fake and start asking questions. Your school will drop you in it faster than a hot brick.

It is the MoE (Ministry of Education) which certifies teachers, not Labour. In my experience, the MoE is not very good about checking the authenticity of degrees....I've seen a number of forgeries get through. And some were the crappy copies you mentioned...Once the teacher has their license, there's no reason for the MoE to ever look again....In my company, I did help one applicant with a copy of a degree so he could get certified. Happy I did it with this guy, but I never tried that again. One guy I know got his mid management position at Harrow International school using a Khao San road copy....

Some years ago, my company (which hired and supervised about 100 foreign teachers placed in a few Thai schools) had a potential problem....When they registered each teacher, they used the company address- instead of the workplace address, as the MoE regs required...One day, we recieved notice that the new Director was doing site inspections, and they wanted to make an appointment to observe some of our teachers at their workplace...My Thai boss (owner) worried that if they found out about the registration mistake, the new Director would somehow make an example of us...

So, we made the appointment for the site inspection. Luckily, we already had about 6 classrooms at the office which we used for training and for weekend special classes....She (my boss) then rented a bunch of school busses to ferry in about 200 prathom kids from our contract school in shifts throughout the day. All of their other normal Thai classes at their real school were cut that day to enable the con job to come off ...

When the Director showed up, my boss wined and dined her, and also brought me out as the Monkey Who Can Speak Thai, and I gave her my best Monkey Charm.. We smoozed for an hour, then did the inspection, which lasted about 10 minutes.

The cost: 20,000 baht to the School mistress where we took the kids from, 5,000 for the busses, and 10,000 in a white envelope as a contribution to the MoE welfare fund...I assumed it was a form of encouraging the Director to overlook any questions she might have, like where our other 90+ teachers were at...Many of them were actually teaching in Phuket and Trang, where we also had offices and a couple of schools which contracted for our teachers....

When my contract as DoS ended, it was a huge relief

[makavelithedon]

Ajarn,

I don't feel my points are broadly negative, I merely feel it inappropriate for those who are not in Thailand with a desire to teach and integrate as if they are emmigrating from the outset to be in the teaching profession here. Furthermore if I put myself in the position of a parent I certainly would want to feel a teacher was committed in this regard. I really can't see this as negative just how it should be for a person anywhere to be in the position a teacher of this type holds in Asian society.

As regards backpackers, of course it is a great way to see the world or a large portion of it and you would need pockets the size of the current Thai P.M. if you expected to cover so much ground and stay at the Holiday Inn!!!!

I am not criticising those who travel in this fashion in anyway, and I have done a bit myself a few years ago BUT I didn't take a teaching position for a few months at the expense of children. If this appears negative so be it I suppose.

Finally, because of the broad nature of this site and the mixture of individuals here (of which I feel makes it so interesting) many have no experience or interest in talking teacher shop and why should they!!! So I suppose this thread has taken a very one sided view of teaching on the whole where were all portrayed as having to do better!!!

I am realistic enough to know however that their are many internal hands played by the Thai side of the profession and much bad press is because of unfounded stories born of lower wages/threats to status and whatever else you care to mention. That is why I felt your comments in this regard were quite obviously made from great experience and depth of living here. Many Thanks.

And I apologise in advance for any unchecked grammatical errors I have just about given up trying to correct on the P.C I am allocated if I could afford it I would have launced into the street about 15 times over the last few days!!!

Regards,

Mak.

[Ajarn]

Mak, I think if we start to criticize each other's grammar here, none of us would be safe from flames

I certainly agree with your feeling that teachers should be committed to their teaching, but I've learned that that committment isn't always easy to see, and it's such a subjective pigeon-hole, it seems. For someone hiring teachers, it often feels like playing the lottery....Only personal integrity can assure committment- not years in school, or numbers of degrees...It still comes down to the individual

I am not criticising those who travel in this fashion in anyway, and I have done a bit myself a few years ago BUT I didn't take a teaching position for a few months at the expense of children. If this appears negative so be it I suppose

I'm just as concerned as anyone that students not get 'damaged' by teachers, but I've never seen any evidence, personally, that a short-term teacher is somehow inherently negative for students, and I've hired plenty of teachers over the years. Short-term teachers, with integrity as a teacher, will bring the same committment to quality to their class as any teacher doing it for much longer periods, in my experience. But, there certainly are bad teachers, and I worked hard to find them, and either turn them around, or boot them out the door. That was my responsibility to our students.

Mak, I appreciate your thoughts, even though there might be a couple of points we don't see eye-to-eye on. But I feel that you are being honest and straight-forward when presenting your views and arguments, and I appreciate that. I'm here to share, to think, to learn... Just as you. Thanks for the open mind... it's a bit of a rarity here, at times

Lawrence

[h5kaf]

Ajarn. re: the issue of salaries, taxes and visas for teachers etc. I got my information from the "questions & answers" section of the Phuket Gazette. This is an excellent forum from which to get 'official' answers to various questions. The paper submits the questions to the various government offices and the replies comes from authorised government officials. Don't think we can do much better than this. There is a list of past questions on the site going back about 1 year. The link is http://phuketgazette.net/ Hope this is useful.

[Ajarn]

Ajarn.  re: the issue of salaries, taxes and visas for teachers etc.  I got my information from the "questions & answers" section of the Phuket Gazette.  This is an excellent forum from which to get 'official' answers to various questions.  The paper submits the questions to the various government offices and the replies comes from authorised government officials.  Don't think we can do much better than this.  There is a list of past questions on the site going back about 1 year.  The link is http://phuketgazette.net/    Hope this is useful.

Thanks for the link! That does answer some critical questions I had....but I still feel confident that govt university teachers will get the nod for the one year stamp...At CMU, teachers are being told that nothing will change for them...

Maybe it's only the new ones, since there's word that most of these new regs are to be grandfathered in...

And there's still always the possibility of a political wind change....

Onward, through the fog

[SeaVisionBurma]

Hmm, good thread this one, pity I didnt see it earlier. I like forums, every one gets to say their bit, and I am always well amused when I see people get baited far too easily.

The concept of purchaseable degrees reminds me of a business card I was once handed in India ...

The card noted the gentleman's name in the usual way, and then put his academic qualifications behind his name:

Mr Shreekant Panday, ACA (Failed)

Apparently in populous India it is a noteworthy achievement even to have made it as far as the exams, let alone passed them!

For starters - this story is great. My Father and Grandfather often told me with a chuckle about a certain district in Calcutta, where one could a get heavily discounted consultation with a Doctor. To find these 'discounted M.D.'s", one simply had to walk down the side streets until they saw a sign which read something like

Dr Jasvinder Singh Chopra, M.B. Ch.B (failed)

As for the topic of teaching without the proper credentials, I'm looking back to the original post:

I am sure that people who have lived or are living in Thailand will know, it is next to impossible to get a work permit without having a degree first....

Over the past few years, people have obtained their 'degrees' from Khao San Road, myself also very recently. I am looking to apply for a new job as an English teacher. With things getting a lot stricter here right now, what choice would you say is the best one?

I could either work here illegally, OR go through the Ministry of Education and Labour with my new 'degree'.

I would greatly appreciate any advice that anyone might care to give.

Quite simply - the issue (IMHO) wasn't whether chappie was a good teacher or not, but the reaction to him blatantly telling all that he wanted a teacher's job but wanted to use fake qualifications. He then goes on to bash a fair comment made by adjan jb, saying he only wants the money and isn't really interested in teaching.

Incidentally, anyone who gets off on sending in snide remarks and replies to peoples' questions that they post, such as this one, I would appreciate it if you just didn't reply at all. SunbeltAsia is a classic example.

As was mentioned prior - re-read your own posts, and then try telling us again not to make 'snide remarks and replies'

Can this thread be closed? I'm sure this topic will come up again in the future (it always does), and most of the posters here already gave decent comments in debate. But not this chap. Have a nice day.