Farming In Isaan

[JungleBiker]

Hi Tim, RC and Teletiger,

Thanks for your replies. It looks like this thread should be divided into at least 3 topics – forages, livestock marketing and solar/wind-powered water pumps! I am partly to blame because I was the one who introduced livestock marketing!

Hi Tim,

Yes, documents are required for pigs moving cross country – but not sure if it is the same number of docs or less.

Regarding recording animals details from birth – none of that is done here in Laos – that would be of benefit to farmers, but the documents here are for the benefit of the government (control prices and tax purposes) and don’t really benefit farmers at all. For example, one of the 7 documents is a health certificate, but in practice they are issued without inspecting the animal so they serve no useful purpose other to provide yet another opportunity to collect an official fee or unofficial bribe.

Reading your reply, I understand that you are supplying cattle to the BEV abattoirs, is that correct? I also understand that you do have your own set of scales on the farm – can I ask what do these scales cost in Thailand and do you have a phone number of a supplier? Thanks.

About the Agricultural Department Livestock records – are these on the internet or where? Do you have access to these price records – I assume so, otherwise how can you agree the price? Do you mean the “inspector” is the person who also negotiates the price with you? Who does he work for – the government or the abattoir? Is the abattoir privately owned or belonging to the government? How do your prices compare with the prices of Teletiger (his seem low)?I guess yours are higher if you are selling to the BEV people?

FYI, here in Laos, at least up country, traders are currently buying animals based on estimate of the weight of meat the animal is carrying, not the total liveweight. The current price for the “live meat” is about 36,000 - 37,000 kip/kg (roughly 135 - 140 baht/kg). So if an animal is estimated to have 100kg of meat then the price of the animal is 3.6 – 3.7 million baht. But the wholesale price of the “dead meat” up country is around 24,000 kip/kg (say 91 baht/kg). The negative difference is made up from the sale of all the other animal parts (divided into 12 different categories – offal, bile, blood, skin, feet, skull, etc, each with its own price). A trader gave me an example of a buffalo that weighed 234 kg (or rather that was the weight of all the parts he sold after it was butchered) and it had 90 kg of meat. He’d bought the animal for about 3.4 million kip so that suggests a live weight price of about 14,500 kip/kg (say nearly 55 baht/kg). This is higher than the price mentioned by Teletiger which I find surprising because I thought prices were higher in Thailand than Laos – hence the smuggling of livestock from Laos into Thailand.

Hi RD,

Can you tell me more about the tape measures for indicating weight of a cow? Do you mean the tape is marked in kilograms instead of centimeters? Are these tapes widely used by Thai cattle farmers when selling their cattle? Reason I am asking is that here in Laos the farmers and traders usually do not weigh or measure their animals. A project here reckons the farmers get a raw deal (because as you say, the traders can estimate the weight of a animal and its meat content fairly accurately) and therefore the project has the idea to introduce scales and perhaps the tape system that you mention, but I am not convinced that they will be used and that the trade will continue to operate as before.

I'm sorry to tell you that you still don’t have a clue how to spell abattoir! (double “t” not “b”) – but you’re not the only one – I also got it wrong until my MS Word spellchecker taught me the correct way!

Hi Teletiger,

Thanks for the information on prices and comments on tough beef. Here in Laos, animal welfare and humane slaughtering is also not high on people’s lists. Abattoirs here also use a type of hammer, though one day I was traveling through a village and saw a guy using a piece of wood, I saw him hit the buffalo on the head at least 6 times before we drove out of view. The animal was still standing and there was blood splashing around – I don’t know how many more hits the poor animal had to take before collapsing.

About the permits to move inter-province – do you know how many documents – is it just one permit? Any idea about the process to get the permit (I assume an inspector has to come to the farm, market or trader’s place to check the health of the animals?) and the fee?

Thanks and regards.

Edited August 10, 2006 by JungleBiker

[bina]

Do you mean the tape is marked in kilograms instead of centimeters?

the measuring tapes we use are provided by vet supply places (we arent in thailand), usually advertising feed or something, but they are in centimeters, u measure the width (girth) and or height to the withers of the animal on a specific point and the tape has markings that are listed next to the height (per age/sex of the animal ) and tells u the approx. weight, its usually used for following growth to maturity in young animals, to know how much milk supplement/feed/medications etc to give...

we have one for alpacas, and one for goats, but they are not really reliable , just a guestimite device for giving meds etc per kilo.... although most old time farmers anywhere in the world seem to be able to give good guestimates for weight just by looking or feeling the animal.

[Maizefarmer]

Hi Jungle biker

I'll answer sometime tomorrow or over the weekend - I have just had a shit load of rain over the last 24/36 hours and am having major problems getting silage cut and into the barns to dry out before it all rots in the fields. So I have little time to deal with much else.

RANDONECHANCES - hi mate, can you give me an indication of what the rainfall like round you hs been like over the last 2 days - is it much? I have had a ton and half - by far the most for at elast 5 years.

Tim

[RamdomChances]

JB the tape is more or less how Bina described, it's in cm but has weight markings on it as well, I havew'nt actually got one, but have seen them used. As for "abattoir" I just cut'n'pasted it out of another post so can't be held responsible

Mf pretty dry around here (not drought just normal for this time of year), it usually dries off a bit July/Aug before the deluge in Sept/Oct. They are'nt cutting maize here yet. There was flood warings for some of the Northen provinces due to some storm or something so thats what is probably hitting you.

[chownah]

RandomChances,

I'm worried about your cows....don't know why but I keep thinking about them. You say that when you started giving the fang mak their milk production went up but then gradually dropped back to the straight fang rate. Has there been any other change in their diet? Are they eating more ya jumbo too and less grass? I'm wondering if they are not getting some vitamin or mineral that they used to get....this is why I'm wondering about what other changes might have happened in their diet. Did you change where you are getting your straw?...or could that person be planting a different type of rice. I have done some reading on the nutritional value of rice straw and it has the unusual characteristic that most of the nutrition in rice straw is in the grain stalks and not in the leaves and tips. This is the opposite of most kinds of straw where the best part is the leaves. Also, if rice straw comes from a taller variety of rice then it is more nutritious because taller varieties will have a higher percentage of grain stalk and a lower percentage of leaves and tips. Many/most of the really new varieties of rice are shorter stalked since the energy used for the plant to make the stalk longer can (at least theoretically) go into making more grain...grain being the primary product the rice farmer is looking for...but this results also in straw that has less nutritional value. Could your straw supplier have switched to a newer hybrid variety of rice and thus you are ending up with lower quality straw?

Chownah

[JungleBiker]

Hi RC,

i am just curious to know if that bit at the bottom of your posts about Moses is taken from the bible and if so which part of the bible. It's pretty amazing!

[plachon]

RandomChances,

I'm worried about your cows....don't know why but I keep thinking about them.

Do I detect a hint of love in the air Chownah?

[plachon]

By the way..............fascinating thread folks, keep 'em coming from Central (RC), North (Chownah,etc), Isaan (ugly hordes), Israel (Bina), and Laos (JB) too!

Edited August 11, 2006 by plachon

[RamdomChances]

Chownah

This was back a while ago, when we did'nt have any fresh grass for them, as soon as we started giving fresh the production shot back up. Strangley when we were giving fang mak, even if we had a small amount of fresh to add it made a huge difference. I'm going to be out of fresh forage sometime during the dry season though and want to give fang mak again so am trying to find out if there are any long term affect's (well I know one is that production will eventualy drop). The concentrate stays the same. We but fang by the lorry load, it comes from "wherever".

JB

yep it's in there Numbers 31 1-35

[z21rhd]

Chownah

This was back a while ago, when we did'nt have any fresh grass for them, as soon as we started giving fresh the production shot back up. Strangley when we were giving fang mak, even if we had a small amount of fresh to add it made a huge difference. I'm going to be out of fresh forage sometime during the dry season though and want to give fang mak again so am trying to find out if there are any long term affect's (well I know one is that production will eventualy drop). The concentrate stays the same. We but fang by the lorry load, it comes from "wherever".

JB

yep it's in there Numbers 31 1-35

To Tim and RC,

Here is part of the reply from my university friend who has just returned and has been good enough to answer my questions regarding the long term effects of feeding teated and untreated rice straw.

"Rice straw increases from about 2% crude protein to about 6% crude protein when it is treated with urea. Milking dairy cows need at least 12% crude protein in their daily diet. Thus, treated rice straw is only a maintenance feed and for milk production a lot of extra concentrate and other supplements must be provided ab lib. This of course is expensive.

The cows will suffer no ill effects from eating treated rice straw but they will not produce much milk and possibly will not come into heat.

The best and cheapest feeds are good forages-both high quality grasses and forage legumes. Your friend must either grow his own forages or buy them in. Here at the university our cows produce 13-16 litres of milk/day grazing on good pastures without any other supplementation. The cows look fit and healthy. They are not stuck in a yard all day lying in their own shit.

I hope that this information is of some help."

[JungleBiker]

Hi Jungle biker

I'll answer sometime tomorrow or over the weekend - I have just had a shit load of rain over the last 24/36 hours and am having major problems getting silage cut and into the barns to dry out before it all rots in the fields. So I have little time to deal with much else.

Tim

Hi Tim,

I hope that when you read this you’ve got your wet silage problems sorted and managed to catch up on your sleep.

In addition to my questions the other day, I’d just like to if you could possibly attach a couple of pictures of your silage making/storage operation. I’d like to show them to people here in Laos as the practice of conserving forages for feeding in the dry season is hardly known to farmers here.

Cheers,

Eddie.

[Beachedwhale]

I apologise if this is not the right forum but I cannot find anything regarding the topic (in recent threads anyway). I am a farang in Koh Samui with a restaurant trying to sell farang food (as well as Thai). I am dissapointed to find that the majority of the farang type vegetables that we can source at a reasonable price in Samui come from China or elsewhere offshore - carrots, potatoes, lettuce, broccoli .. plus fruit such as apples.

I am a little bit surprised as I thought that the Isaan area could have the climate to produce many of these, just a small matter of having the right stock, soil, water and farming skills.

Does anyone have any information about where I can source such product in Thailand .. and I suppose, if it is not available - does anyone know why not? (once I get out of the rat-race that Samui is becoming, maybe I will go to Isaan with my Isaan wife and our kids and have a go at producing such items).

Cheers

[chownah]

Chownah

This was back a while ago, when we did'nt have any fresh grass for them, as soon as we started giving fresh the production shot back up. Strangley when we were giving fang mak, even if we had a small amount of fresh to add it made a huge difference. I'm going to be out of fresh forage sometime during the dry season though and want to give fang mak again so am trying to find out if there are any long term affect's (well I know one is that production will eventualy drop). The concentrate stays the same. We but fang by the lorry load, it comes from "wherever".

JB

yep it's in there Numbers 31 1-35

When you say, "as soon as we started giving fresh the production shot back up", does this mean that you started giving them ya jumbo...or does it mean ruzzi grass?...or either? Am I correct in assuming that your cows don't get to graze then?

Chownah

[z21rhd]

I apologise if this is not the right forum but I cannot find anything regarding the topic (in recent threads anyway). I am a farang in Koh Samui with a restaurant trying to sell farang food (as well as Thai). I am dissapointed to find that the majority of the farang type vegetables that we can source at a reasonable price in Samui come from China or elsewhere offshore - carrots, potatoes, lettuce, broccoli .. plus fruit such as apples.

I am a little bit surprised as I thought that the Isaan area could have the climate to produce many of these, just a small matter of having the right stock, soil, water and farming skills.

Does anyone have any information about where I can source such product in Thailand .. and I suppose, if it is not available - does anyone know why not? (once I get out of the rat-race that Samui is becoming, maybe I will go to Isaan with my Isaan wife and our kids and have a go at producing such items).

Cheers

If one goes to any of the big super market (eg tesco) chains - find their vegetable section - you should find good quality western veg, packaged with telephone numbers and addresses of growers/suppliers mainly in Chiang Mai province - sure the apples may also come China but the good perishable vegs are nearly all from the North. I live in Isaan , my lettuce comes from Chiang Mai .

Cheers

[Maizefarmer]

Hi JungleBiker

I have no secrets – more than happy to do that and share the way I go about things with anyone who feels they could benefit from my experience.

Why don’t they practise ensiling In Laos for the dry season – is it because they don’t practise much forage cultivation to start with, is it because they don’t have a level of mechanisation to make it feasible – just why do you think ensiling is such a low priority for them?

If you send me your email address I will get "junior" (my daughter) this weekend to get some high res pictures and email them to you – it’s a good time actually because I can show you the whole process from cutting down and wilting, thru loading, packing and then sealing and vacuuming.

But just to recap on the basics………..

As a rule, just about any grass, grain or vegetable crop can be made into silage – subject to a few basic process rules.

1) Most importantly – moisture content at time of packing and sealing.

2) Cutting length – chop the crop up, do not ensile in long/big pieces.

Then while waiting for it to “mature” – moniter for:

1) Temperature

2) PH

3) Moisture

Moisture

Do not ensile any crop below 70% or above 80%.

If below 70% it will quickly overheat and destroy the bacteria needed to break the natural sugars down to lactic acid. If above 80% it will simply rot down to a stinky slushy mess.

Moisture content is something that must be taken into consideration right at the start i.e. when planning to cut the crop. Ideally, the moisture content should be calculated BEFORE the crop is cut – because that will determine how long it has to lie around before it can be ensiled.

It should be checked with a moisture meter, but if no m/meter is available then use the microwave oven method - a round figure handful (say 100grams) in a glass/plastic bowl, weighed before heating and then again afterwards, with the before/after weight difference converted to “percentage” is a ###### accurate alternative. This method can be further refined/used to calculate time required to dry out and a number of other parameters that are not essential, but very helpful to getting good silage results.

PH

Monitoring PH – critical and so seldom monitored in Thailand, and yet so easy to monitor. The quicker the PH drops the more nutrients are preserved. What determines how quick your PH drops is your initial moisture content. It should be checked every day for the first 14 – 21 days and you are looking for a consistent drop, Drawing this on a graph provides a very informative record from which a wealth of “feed” quality info can be interpratated. In simple terms, one should be aiming for 3.8 – 4.2

Ph can be reliably monitered with hospital type urine Ph strips – crush up some crop/silage, mix completely with an equal quantity of sterile water in a glass or plastic container (not steel or aluminium) and allow to settle for about 10 – 15 minutes. Dip the ph strip in for about 30secs – 1 minute and read the ph. Cheap and simple – even the most remote hospital/health clinic in Laos can offer sterile water and ph strips.

Tem

Stable temp throughout the fermentation stage(s) should be maintained – and by that I mean the environmental temp – hence the larger the silage quantity and the more isolated from the weather/sun/high temp – low temp fluctuations the better. Stick it in the ground if you can.

Particle Size

Important – to big then the cattle will pass a large percentage through their rumen without extracting as much protein/nutrient as they can. To small and it will pass through to quick,, again without giving the animal time to extract as much as they could. Ideal size for cattle – around 2cm – 3cm, possibly larger but not above 4cm.

Silage can be stored in ANYTHING so long as a number of rule are adhered to:

1) Single packs/quantities to be above 50kg – the more the better.

2) Must be SEALED from air

3) Large quantities should be packed consistently i.e. avid dense and lightly packed areas – keep it all the same.

4) Large quantities must have drainage at the base e.g. place chicken wire on some boards on the floor – that 1” or so below the boards will allow “runoff” to separate from the silage.

5) If in trenches – line trench with pvc and cover top with 25 – 50cm soil.

Monitor temp and PH daily – in a large volume say a volume measuring 10m x 5m 2m no harm in lifting a bit of one corner each day to get a handful out to test.

AS I said JungleBiker – drop me your email address by PM and I’ll get some photos over the weekend because all I am doing this weekend is ensiling. And if you want more “practical” detail – more than happy to help.

I would really like to know why stock farmers in Laos don’t put much emphasize on ensiling. In Thailand the reasons are usually volume, couldn’t be bothered or the false perception that it is a black art i.e. its been tried and failed, and because the farmer just couldn’t avoid to have a situation like that on his hands again, hasn’t done it again.

But like most aspects to farming in Thailand, livestock feeding is “hampered” by poverty and lack of education.

You are always welcome to come over and stay a weekend. Another “farang farmer” is going to be coming over for a weekend in about a month’s time – you’re welcome to join up with him. If interested, PM me and we can discuss further.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

I should add that when using the micro wave method the idea is to heat slowly at a low heat, and check every 30 seconds or so – and then just keep repeating the 30second heating interval until the weight cease to drop anymore – which indicates you have extracted as much moisture as can practically be extracted.

It;s a good idea to mash up the crop with a Thai pestal & mortar, and spread it out on a plate – speeds up the moisture extraction.

If you start off with a “mashed up” weight of exactly 100grams (and make sure you know the weight of the plate) it makes it very easy to work things out on a percentage basis

Why a microwave and not a stove – because as most of you will know – the heat a microwave oven generates is proportional to the moisture content of the product/foo that is been heated, and once it is dry it stops heating i.e.you will not destroy any of the dry matter or residual mass of whatever you are weighing - you will only be driving out the water/mositure

Tim

Edited August 12, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[RamdomChances]

Ok thanks for that Z21. It does'nt really tell me anythng I did'nt know but thanks anyway

I will add that there are long term problems as I've experianced them, I've also had stories of simular experiances off other farms. He probably going of research thats avalible off the net, none of which mention anything about long term affects, I can only assume its because the resaerch data was'nt over a long enough period.

When you say, "as soon as we started giving fresh the production shot back up", does this mean that you started giving them ya jumbo...or does it mean ruzzi grass?...or either? Am I correct in assuming that your cows don't get to graze then?

Ok I'll try and explain. We used to buy in forage, it got too expensive, so we had to switch to "fang" as I did'nt have anything else, when we switched the milk production droped by about 40% about a month later my "fang mak" was ready, as has been said it ups the CP to something like 6-8% depending on where you read. So it's better than straight "fang".

As soon as we started giving "fang mak" milk production shot straight back up say by about 30% not quite to the levels of the bought in fresh stuff but aceptable. About 6 months later it was like hitting a wall, milk production plummeted down to the straight fang levels. Through this time we have about 5 rai of ruzzi/local grass that we are able to irrigate, so every now and again the cows got some fresh stuff that we tried to ration, even a small amount of this seemed to have a big affect, within a day or two milk going back up.

As soon as my "jumbo" was ready we started cut'n'carry with that but have had to graze some of it as well as sometimes it gets too wet to get out and cut it, we also still have the 5 rai ruzzi.

Hopefully next year I will be self sufficent in forage but I'm going to have a shortfall of probaly about 3 months this year so need to look for alternitives, buying in forage just is'nt cost effective.

Oh all the concentrate food remained the same throught, we even had a blood check done on the heard just in case they had picked something up

Edited August 14, 2006 by RamdomChances

[teletiger]

RC.

A very good website pertaining to dairies in the sub-tropics.

http://www.dairyinfo.biz/index.cfm?MenuID=0

regards

[z21rhd]

Ken

www.whalepumps.com/caravan_RV/product_list/16/72/

These types of pumps are great – the one I have given the web address to as an example is rated at 2 bar (i.e. it will pump to 20 meters height). It can also run dry without any damage. It draws 5 amps and so in theory will run off a standard car battery of 60Amps for around 12 hours (if fully charged) – in reality it will run for about 9 hours because Thai batteries are never what they say they are!!

And to power 2 pumps you are going to need 1 x 12Vdc 120 Amp truck battery, or a multiple of smaller batteries amperage 12Vdc batteries connected up in parallel to get a total of at least 120Amps.

The 2nd best way to set the pumps up are, one at the beginning of the system, down by the water, and one half way up the line, connected in parallel to the 12vDc batteries.

But the best way to connect them up would be to place them as above, but in series and use a 24Vdc battery – that will give you better efficiency. There is a problem though – as I understand it, your whole solar system is set up for 12vDc, but if you can find a way around that (which is easy – but another story) – that is the way I would want to go – because it is easier to move 10Amps over a long cable at 24V, than it is to move to move 5Amps over a long cable at 12Vdc (yup ……… I’m just waiting for the flood of replies to that last statement!!!).

Tim

Hi Tim, Ken and other farmers.

BATTERIES BATTERIES TIPS/INFO FOR THOSE THAT NEED RESUSCITATING :

INCREASE BATTERY LIFE USING CHEMICAL DESULFATORS

* EDTA (ethylene diamine tetra acetic acid) is well known to the medical

profession as a chelator that tie up poisonous heavy metal ions to form

a chelate or complex ion that can be eliminated from the body. This

same reaction will occur in a battery to drive lead sulfate to

dissolution. This reaction does not destroy the EDTA, rather the EDTA

is regenerated and the sulfate is precipitated to the bottom of the

battery case.

* Proponents of EDTA therapy recommend that EDTA be added to new

batteries as a preventive medicine. 4 years ago I bought 5 new

batteries. 4 batteries I treated one I did not. The untreated battery

died last year, all 4 treated batteries load test like new.

* EDTA is a dry white powder available as DI-SODIUM SALTS or

TETRA-SODIUM SALTS. It's the TETRA-SODIUM you want for your battery. I

paid 150 Baht/kilo in BKK.

* Be aware that EDTA will not dissolve in battery acid but dissolves

easily in distilled water so don't try dumping the powder directly into

your battery.

* How much? Best information so far is one tablespoon EDTA/liter of

cell capacity. This doesn't seem all that precise so I'm going with 1

tablespoon per cell on a 70AH battery. For larger batteries scale up.

I'm using a proper kitchen measuring spoon, not the eating kind, EDTA

dissolves easily in an equal amount of distilled water.

* Mix, disolving the lumps, then add the EDTA solution to your battery

one cell at a time.

* Be aware this therapy will not restore life to shorted, disintegrated,

or warped plates but will restore badly sulfated batteries that have

been left unused awaiting disposal.

* In most cases a one time treatment is all that’s required for

batteries in service. Deep cycle batteries from the scrap yard if badly

sulfated may require a double treatment and a month connected to your

bank for results.

* I visited the battery graveyard and found several test

specimens. Example: a battery that measured 11.8V no load and

absolutely zero under load test will now start a diesel after 3 weeks

connected to my bank. At time of this writing these junk batteries have

been in service about 4 years and show no sign of degradation.

* Treatment as preventive medicine to new batteries gets no reaction.

But be careful, pour slowly into an old, heavily sulfated, battery. It

will boil, spit, sputter, and quickly get hot just sitting there before

charging.

* Over the long term the chelate will collect in the bottom until it

starts to cover plates and reduce available area. I'm assured that the

chelate is an insulator so all that will happen is reduction of plate

area reducing battery performance. The BIG question: can this chelate

be flushed and battery life can start over as a virgin?

MORE ON BATTERIES

* Are you bothered with that green/white gunge that collects around

battery terminals. This is the stuff that causes poor contact to the

post. This is caused by gas leaking out of the seal at the post. Not

the greatest seal after you've wrenched, twisted, and hammered on it to

install the connecting clamp. Solve this problem by putting a tight

fitting piece of plastic under the connector that is big enough to

divert venting gas away from the terminal. Those red and green things

that come with your battery are just not big enough to protect the

connector. Many plastic lids will do, like the lid from a Pringles

potato chip can, then punch a neat 1/2" hole on center and slip over the

terminal under the connector.

HOT BATTERIES

* My batteries are automotive size and sited in a box side by side. I

noted that the batteries in the center seemed to have a shorter life and

the center cells of the center batteries required far more water than

the outside cells. Apparently there was just no way for the trapped

heat to dissipate. Solved the problem by placing flat black painted

sheet aluminum between the batteries with about 3" on 2 sides of the

sheet exposed to free air. Now water added is about the same for all

cells.

BATTERY WATER

* Why pay for bottled water that you think is distilled. I haveput an

ohm meter probes into 'distilled' water and read conductivity.

Distilled water is supposed to be an insulator. Better

to let nature distill your water. I keep a large dishpan purged with

rain water stored in a giant plastic bag. After the beginning of rain

has cleaned the air I put the pan out on deck to collect water. Be sure

this water is direct from the sky and not roof or tarp runoff. I then

dip, with a purged dedicated dipper, into battery water bottles I've

saved. Not recommended down wind from power plant or other belching

stacks.

* I've been told 'I don't use water, I buy battery solution'. Well

folks this is a water/acid solution for filling a new 'dry charge'

battery. Under charge your battery only loses water, not acid, so

continued use of solution will only increase acid content until the

battery is destroyed.

BUYING BATTERIES

* The wise buyer will choose a 'DRY CHARGE' battery that comes with

bottled acid you pour in to start life. Be aware that the battery you

buy that has water already in its cells started sulfating long before

you bought it.

[z21rhd]

Ok thanks for that Z21. It does'nt really tell me anythng I did'nt know but thanks anyway

I will add that there are long term problems as I've experianced them, I've also had stories of simular experiances off other farms. He probably going of research thats avalible off the net, none of which mention anything about long term affects, I can only assume its because the resaerch data was'nt over a long enough period.

Hi RC,

The response came from professional scientists who were quoting from some 20 years results here in Thailand. Also from scientific work carried out in other countries.

The one Scientist specialises on pastures and the other (who has just returned to the university) is specialist in the nutrients of livestock feeds.

Obviously, cattle fed on treated rice straw will not only be subjected to that feed, but will encounter other food, elements and chemicals during their life span. I understood from them that rice straw alone, treated with the recommended amount of urea to increase protein content , did not have long term deleterious effects.

[RamdomChances]

TT thanks for the link, just reading through it ..looks good

Z21 Sorry I' did'nt mean to sound disspareging, he probably knows his stuff really well, what I meant was most of the research I've found on the net, the experimental data was over a shorter period, than I used. There is quite a lot of data on the net from Thai professors about it with the research data as well.

It reminds me of an argment I was having with my wife:-

Me:- Look it's not the fang mak it's got to be something else, there articles on the net from Thai people that do this for a living and nothing about long term affects

Wife:- They've never had a farm and dont know

Me:- Look if there was a problem it would be there somewhere

Wife:- You can't give it for a long time ask anyone

over the next few days visit a few farms all say the same thing......later we start giving fresh grass agian milk shoots back up

Wife:- See I told you so

Me:-

Anyway thanks for the effort

RC

[khunandy]

G'day Cockies,

Ive enjoyed following this blog, its good to see information and experience being pooled for the benefit of all.

I will be looking for alternative water on my small plot of land soon and was wondering if windmill pumps are common in Thailand. I am from Aussie so of course they are very common but I dont recall seeing any in the area of Issan I will be building our house which is West of Khon Kaen.

I will be sinking a bore soon and I want to consider the different pumping methods from the ground to the already existing storage tanks

Any info on this would be appreciated, google has let me down on this one.

Hoo'roo

Andy

I

[Maizefarmer]

RDC

I went to KK Uni today (the missus had to go so I took the day off and drove down).

In the library I found some Thai articles which are a summary of Chinese research. To keep it as short and as to the point as possible – as well as practical, the following may interest you.

A large scale project in China in 1998 was conducted into the use of “rice-straw” as a feed alternative.

The cows chosen were randomly selected across both age and lactation cycles completed (i.e. – a complete mix). The cows were Holstein/Friesian mix.

The animals were fed 2 meals a day over a 56 day period. Both intake and rejection was recorded (in kg’s) of each animal. This was compared with milk production over the same period.

The sponsors of this programme were, Khon Kaen Uni, the TDPO (Thai Dairy Farming Organisation), Newcastle Upon Tyne Uni and the Thailand Research Fund (TRF). It’s just that it was undertaken in China.

The composition of the rice straw was as follows:

Dry Matter 93%, which on a percentile basis was made up as follows:

Ash 14.3%, Crude protein 4.3%, NDF 76.8%, ADF 45.3%

The first question has to be – how does this compare with Thai rice straw? It’s not far off actually – and for the purpose of the experiment is sufficient close so as not to have a significant impact on experiment results (i.e. use Thai rice straw and you will get the same results in principal).

What happened: - milk production dropped, and as it dropped so to did Fat, Protein, Lactose and SNF of the milk – as follows.

Fat started off at 4.39% - after 56 days was 3.71%

Protein dropped from 3.63% - after 56 days was 3.21%

Lactose dropped from 4.32 – after 56 days was 3.89%

SNF dropped from 8.91% - after 56 days was 7.93%

Now these differences do not sound much, but they are significant indicators that the cows diet is severely lacking.

At the end of the 56 days another experiment commenced – the objective of which was to increasingly replace a portion of the rice straw with a “supplemental feed” – to increase carbohydrate and high bypass protein – both “intake values” which significantly impact milk yield. The “supplemental feed” was cassava chips – which are abundantly available in Thailand and dried out are a brilliant and economical feed additive for cattle – beef & dairy.

There was a steady and consistent increase in milk yield and milk composition to the point that after.

The feed “exchange” continued in 5% steps p/week until the increase in milk yield and composition levelled off. This took 62 days, by which time all cows were back up to original levels, and 38% had increased levels of milk production. No correlation was found between increase versus age and/or increase versus lactation cycle(s) (i.e. it was really random and showed the changes recorded were down to feed composition).

I have not completed reading the article (which I now have a photo-copy of) as I was digging around for other things as well. But, this clearly demonstrates the problem you had.

Now I have no experience feeding rice straw (treated or untreated) except for one occasion which was flop, so I can’t offer any personal advise on it, but I am wondering if you can get over the shortfall you anticipate by going back to rice straw (while you sort out the fresh forage/silage problem), and supplement it with cassava – which is available around your area. The evidence is that combined with rice straw it can offer a viable feed alternative.

Dried cassava chips keep well, and can in my experience be mixed with any forage grass or maize. It has a high bypass protein content – not far off the bypass content of commercial fishmeal based concentrates and can be used to reduce commercial concentrate costs.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

Andy

Keep it simple mate - if you have access to AC household power, that is the way to go - its the simplest and cheapest.

No, windmills are not that common in Thailand (but do exist). Solar power is an option - as well, but like windmills requires an extra budget and is dependant on the weather.

Your first option to consider is an ac submersible pump - which can be obtained from just about town/village hardware/machinarey dealer. Check that it has a float switch on to prevent dry running and install a float switch in the tank to prevent over filling.

All told you shouldn't have to spend more than around Bhat 5K - 7K (dpending on the size of the pump - but that should be fine for the average hosuhold).

Tim

G'day Cockies,

Ive enjoyed following this blog, its good to see information and experience being pooled for the benefit of all.

I will be looking for alternative water on my small plot of land soon and was wondering if windmill pumps are common in Thailand. I am from Aussie so of course they are very common but I dont recall seeing any in the area of Issan I will be building our house which is West of Khon Kaen.

I will be sinking a bore soon and I want to consider the different pumping methods from the ground to the already existing storage tanks

Any info on this would be appreciated, google has let me down on this one.

Hoo'roo

Andy

I

[teletiger]

Tim,

Everything I've ever read about cassava chips/meal (tapiocca) has the protein levels down there with fang, roughly 4%. Whether a high % of that is bypass protein would seem academic at those levels.

RC,

have you ever tried brewers grains? I seem to remember a large Chang brewery somewhere near Nahkon Sawan. At 30% protein (dry matter) 50% of which is bypass protien and 60 satang per kilo, it would seem to be an economical supplement to give with fang or fang mak.

regards

[Maizefarmer]

TT

Do you understand the difference between DIP protein and UIP protein, and the role DIP’s versus UIP’s play in milk yield of lactating cows?

From a DIP point of view you are correct in describing fang and cassava has having similar protein content (DIP), but from a UIP point of view the two are very different – I must disagree with you when you describe the difference as “academic”. It is far from academic.

The one is avalible straight from the rumen for the cow to use, the other requires microbial breakdown in the rumen before the cow can use it.

It is generally accepted that DIP can only supply roughly 7% - 8% of total CP requirements. So if you have a cow been fed loads of commercial concentrate which for arguments sake is 25, 30 or even 50%, it could be a complete waste of time (and money – the big issue with all dairy farms in Thailand if you consider how tight argins are) if there is a low DIP in the feed/concentrate. To enable the cow to benefit from that extra protein content or for it to be able to increase its total crude protein intake it needs to have its DIP intake increased so the rumen can use all the UIP and CP. In the case of lactating cows (in my experience in Thailand – and I say my experiance because someone is going to get on the internet and say they are in such and such place and they only use X amount) you should be ensuring that at least 45% - 50% of total CP intake is made up from DIP – which can come from Cassava/cassava chips (ie. fresh or dried) but it will not come from a diet of rice straw.

Brewery dreggs/mash/hopps are also an excellent alternative/compliment to livestock feeds - but most of what comes out of Thai breweries goes striaght to the CP group - who long time back relasied the benefit and setup contracts with Thai brewers. They use it in the production of the livestock feeds the sell commercially to chicken, cattle and pig farmers. It all goes to the CP feedmill on the left hand side of the road just past saraburi heading towards Bangkok.

We've all missed the boat on that one...................

Hope that helps.

Tim

[teletiger]

Tim,

I'm dizzy. All those capitals. We are talking about rumen degradable and undegradable (bypass) protein? Both proteins are the sum of the CP (crude protein) of any given feed. So, for a cow to ingest 400gms of protein (of any type) she will have to eat 11 kilos of cassava chips, presuming 4% protein and 90% dry matter. Please understand that I'm not trying to argue the point, just understand it. I really do bow to your superior knowledge. After all, you've been there and got the t-shirt.

I came across a site that purports to unravel the mystery, but I'm none the wiser.

http://www.afns.ualberta.ca/Hosted/DRTC/Ar...ass_Protein.asp

Brewers grains can be had from the Singha brewery near Pak Chong. In 10 ton loads A trader in Muak Lek sells it for 54 Baht per 30 kilos, or the dry version for 6 Baht per kilo.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

TT

I have to tread real careful here before I put my foot in my mouth.

My statement(s) on this subject are based on knowledge and experience – not on Google searches which I fear may be my undoing. However lets, run through this point by point and reply to the points you raise. As I have said before, if I am going to make a statement, if challenged on the accuracy of it I need to reply – or shut up in the first place.

About the abbreviations – I should have at least stated what they mean:

A cows digestive system sees "protein" as DIP (degradable Intake Protein) which is deal't with in the rumen, and UIP (Undegradable Intake Protein) which is deal't with in the small intestine.

Actually that’s an over simplification over the process – it is actually fed on in the ruman by microbes creating ammonia. The portion of DIP that is not used by the microbes in the ruman will degrade into amino acid(s) which will pass through to the small intestine and be absorbed there. At this stage it becomes UIP

Here goes:

Both proteins are the sum of the CP (crude protein) of any given feed

Yes and No – it depends what you are feeding. In the case of fang or fang mak and cassava it would be true to say the sum total would be from what the cow was feeding on.

In the case of commercial concentrate this would not be true, as in this case the protein is been fed as/or in its UIP form, it is not the product of microbial action in the rumen.

We are talking about rumen degradable and undegradable (bypass) protein?

Correct.

For a cow to ingest 400gms of protein (of any type) she will have to eat 11 kilos of cassava chips, presuming 4% protein and 90% dry matter.

In theory assuming the mathamatics is correct that would be true. However, because a cow is consuming 11 kilos of cassava chips, would not automatically mean it would ingest 400grams of protein (of any type). The actual amount absorbed would be dependant on the balance between UIP and DIP- and it was this point TT, that I was trying to convey in my posting.

Fang or Mak will be broken down in the rumen much more so than cassava – leaving little for UIP to be moved on to the small intenstine for conversion to amino acid.

Conversly, a cassava only diet can potentialy “overload” the animal with ammonia in the rumen, which when absorbed from the rumen into the blood stream will reduce milk production and stress the liver – which job it is to extract the excess rumen ammonia from the blood and convert it to urea for excretion in the urine.

To take it a step further, the importance of amino acids in cattle are primarily for growth through a hormone known as “bovine somatotropin”.

There are about 180 a/acids to this hormone, and I mention the amount not to try and be a “clever boy” (and that figure is probably off a bit one way or the other), but because - and here the whole relivanceto this subject is: Bingo - they are the same amino acids which stimulate milk production.

In summary: with the reduced UIP which the small intestine will get from a fang/fang mak diet only, as opposed to a diet with cassava added, there will be less amino acid avalibility for the cow - resulting in less growth and/or less milk production.

Growth has nothing to do with this note but I add it as in Thailand it is a significant manisfestation of low UIP and amino acid avalibility.

I have tried to keep it simple so all can get some sense out of it.

Tim

[teletiger]

Thank you for that Tim. Yes I think I understand it now.

regards

[khunandy]

Andy

Keep it simple mate - if you have access to AC household power, that is the way to go - its the simplest and cheapest.

No, windmills are not that common in Thailand (but do exist). Solar power is an option - as well, but like windmills requires an extra budget and is dependant on the weather.

Your first option to consider is an ac submersible pump - which can be obtained from just about town/village hardware/machinarey dealer. Check that it has a float switch on to prevent dry running and install a float switch in the tank to prevent over filling.

All told you shouldn't have to spend more than around Bhat 5K - 7K (dpending on the size of the pump - but that should be fine for the average hosuhold).

Tim

[G'day Tim,

Thanks for the reply, I'll bet you never thought you would be the president of the Issan Farmers Advisory Board

The bore I was planning was not just for domestic supply, I forget to mention that there is also about 20 rai of rice fileds, chilli and tobacco belonging to the family, I thought if I was going to go to go to the trouble of the bore I might be able to beef it up a bit to offer the farm water if needed, they have a small irrigation channel fed from a dam upstream but this is shared by a lot of people and unreliable.

It is their lively hood and I would love to take that anxiety of waiting for the first rains out of their life.

I have tanks for the house and a 3000 cubic metre pond, I was hoping to keep the pond topped up and use that for irrigating the rice nurseries when required and hand watering the chilli and tobacco when required

The family has a pissy little power supply for their domestic use but I will be connecting to the grid on our new house, I hear there are different amp options (different costs) but havent checked too deeply into this.

Interstingly I watched the Discovery Channel last night and the president of Sharp was talking about LCD TVs and told the interviewer that Sharps next global push will be in Solar Panels and energy, if the trend of electronic TVs price dropping flows on to Solar energy components we all might be in for some better priced products in the near future.

Any advice on pump capacity , HP, etc would be gratefully recieved

Hoo'roo

Andy