English Farmer Battered To Death Then Barbecued

[terry57]

My sympathies go out to him and his family.

But does anybody on here not find it insulting, to use the words "Thai Bride"? After all they had been married 9 years. Would they still call 2 english people married for that long a "Bride". NO, it seems like they want to label anybody with a Thai Wife, with the stigma that they got them off the internet. To me, it is just as "Racist" as calling someone a "Paki" etc. and yet you could be taken to court (in the UK) for saying such a thing. Makes my blood boil

You can't have your cake and eat it. This is exactly the type of thing i was talking about in a previous thread, The bargirls and Farang that play with them giving all a bad name.

my thoughts exactly,

im always off side with a certain amount of people when this very point is raised but i'll repeat it again, again and again if nec'essary.

why would an educated, financially independant man possibly want to marry a bar girl that has slept with hundreds of farang ?

can someone out there please give me an itelligent answer to my conundrum ?

btw. please dont throw up the same old trash that is :

A. i was lonely

B i fell in love

C she needed saving from the bar.

D i really wanted to buy her a bar and a condo.

im waiting patiently but getting increasingly bored with the answers.

[terry57]

My sympathies go out to him and his family.

But does anybody on here not find it insulting, to use the words "Thai Bride"? After all they had been married 9 years. Would they still call 2 english people married for that long a "Bride". NO, it seems like they want to label anybody with a Thai Wife, with the stigma that they got them off the internet. To me, it is just as "Racist" as calling someone a "Paki" etc. and yet you could be taken to court (in the UK) for saying such a thing. Makes my blood boil

in short NO.

[terry57]

My sympathies go out to him and his family.

But does anybody on here not find it insulting, to use the words "Thai Bride"? After all they had been married 9 years. Would they still call 2 english people married for that long a "Bride". NO, it seems like they want to label anybody with a Thai Wife, with the stigma that they got them off the internet. To me, it is just as "Racist" as calling someone a "Paki" etc. and yet you could be taken to court (in the UK) for saying such a thing. Makes my blood boil

You are completely overreacting."Thai bride" is used as a term in the West because so many farang-thai marriages are correctly perceived as strangely mismatched whether as to age education,wealth or social class (often a weird combination of all four categories).

In this sad case the victim was a wealthy ex-public school boy, his wife of the lowest social class.Some of these relationships are contracted, as you suggest, over the internet.Many more are with bargirls or ex-bargirls.It is the extreme oddness of many of these relationships that generates terms like "Thai Brides", and attracts comedy programmes like Little Britain to make fun of them.

I stress that this is just a stereotype, and that there are many farang-Thai marriages which don't fall into this category.

nice comment here arsennal.

its a very touchy subject with a certain percentage of punters.

specially the older guys who have pulled bar girls done there nuts and married one.

the marrage goes to <deleted> after the bar girl has sucked him dry, left him high and is now in possession's of all his world'ly goods.

i personally am on the side of the bar girls as if these guys are so stupid to enter into this game they are deserving of there fate.

my god i can hear them reaching for there gun already.

but to be fair i am aware that some do work out but they are few and far between.

the correct way to have a relationship with a thai women is to be introduced by a friend and go down the path of getting to know the woman well away from the frigging bar.

can some farang that have decent thai wifes please explain the courting process correctly please and help out the poor johns.

[terry57]

My sympathies go out to him and his family.

But does anybody on here not find it insulting, to use the words "Thai Bride"? After all they had been married 9 years. Would they still call 2 english people married for that long a "Bride". NO, it seems like they want to label anybody with a Thai Wife, with the stigma that they got them off the internet. To me, it is just as "Racist" as calling someone a "Paki" etc. and yet you could be taken to court (in the UK) for saying such a thing. Makes my blood boil

You are completely overreacting."Thai bride" is used as a term in the West because so many farang-thai marriages are correctly perceived as strangely mismatched whether as to age education,wealth or social class (often a weird combination of all four categories).

In this sad case the victim was a wealthy ex-public school boy, his wife of the lowest social class.Some of these relationships are contracted, as you suggest, over the internet.Many more are with bargirls or ex-bargirls.It is the extreme oddness of many of these relationships that generates terms like "Thai Brides", and attracts comedy programmes like Little Britain to make fun of them.

I stress that this is just a stereotype, and that there are many farang-Thai marriages which don't fall into this category.

Sorry Arsenal, but your talking absolute garbage and i don't feel i am over reacting at all.

It is a demeaning term that generalises all Thai women to that of internet brides. In my view the term "Thai Bride" is more racist than calling someone a "Paki". Don't get me wrong, i'm not one of these PC namby pamby types but it is about the way in which it is meant, when it is said, that annoys me.

what has been said ?

how is it meant ?

that annoys you ? thats your problem jangles!

when a person reads a story he will perceive it in whatever way his mind process works.

i for one find the word "paki" to be racist as we know that this is usually how it is meant to be taken.

the term " thaibride" does not worry me as i have respect for thai women and know that many men have lovely thai wifes.

as far as all thai "thaibrides" being perceived as being pulled of the internet this is a rediculous comment and has no bases at all.

remember your last comment "in my view" .

we do not all have "your view" as each of us is entitled to our "own view" and this is what keeps thaiforum ticking over.

in conclusion, i feel arsenal is not talking garbage but only stating his opinion and in "my view" he is very close to the mark.

cheers

[terry57]

That is a brutal story.

So many morals to the story here.

Is having too much money a dangerous thing? Some crazed western women have done the same for money.

SHould the meeting have been arranged in a public place? Why go back to her families house in the village?

Really, the kicker about their alibi - "He bothered us during our whiskey drinking and musket loading". Does this actually work as a good excuse??

THis story has much to talk about.

So have crazed western men

This isn't a male-female issue but a greedy family out to get as much as they can.

only the very lucky few western men have married into money.

i personally know of one and ive been around for a while.

much more the case that women with wealth usually dont marry any old john specially if he's void of money

but its usuall for a man to marry a plain marry whom is not his financial equall.

just the way things go in this world and you being of the female variety can see the logic in my post.

as im sure you would not marry a fellow who'm you'd be shelling out for.

[qualtrough]

Is that story he wrote online anywhere?

And who is the Scottish detective? Some good work there it sounds like.

My wife finds the case very distressing for at least two reasons. Sad for the man and his young son, and sad because it is bad PR for Thai wives in general, however unjustified that might be.

[Plus]

Qualtrough, you just broke Terry's record of keeping the whole thread to himself for over a page.

[mrbojangles]

i personally am on the side of the bar girls as if these guys are so stupid to enter into this game they are deserving of there fate.

What !! You think this guy deserved this fate!!

that annoys you ? thats your problem jangles!

Oh !! Alright then, thanks for putting me straight !!

i for one find the word "paki" to be racist as we know that this is usually how it is meant to be taken.

That's your problem Heinz57

the term " thaibride" does not worry me as i have respect for thai women and know that many men have lovely thai wifes.

I didn't say it "worries" me, i said it "annoys" me, as it is stereotyping all Thai ladies.

as far as all thai "thaibrides" being perceived as being pulled of the internet this is a rediculous comment and has no bases at all.

Wrong !! Not ridiculous (in my view, if you will kindly permit me to have my own view) !!

remember your last comment "in my view" .

we do not all have "your view" as each of us is entitled to our "own view" and this is what keeps thaiforum ticking over.

Exactly, it was my view and everyone is allowed their own but you are trying to turn this into a flamefest or at the very least, attacking those who don't share your view!!

My wife finds the case very distressing for at least two reasons. Sad for the man and his young son, and sad because it is bad PR for Thai wives in general, however unjustified that might be.

That's the point i was making qualtrough

EDIT - P.S Terry, above is a fine example of how to use the quote function, so that you don't end up using a full page of "your DRIVEL view"

Edited August 3, 2006 by mrbojangles

[Noel]

It seems that the following article was prompted by the above sad tale:

Beware the Oriental fantasy

Many Westerners holiday in South-East Asia and return home with a spouse. Will Jory tells of his own traumatic experience

Regular visitors to Thailand will know the sight well: a wealthy, older Englishman arm in arm with the attractive Bangkok bar girl for whom he has fallen. Unfortunately, for 41-year-old, Marlborough-educated Toby Charnaud, his Oriental fantasy ended in bloody murder, according to reports now emerging from a Thai court.

Among the accused is his ex-wife, Pannada Laoruang, whom Charnaud met - yes - in a Bangkok bar, having sold his £2.5 million estate in Wiltshire to go travelling. The couple married in 1997 and lived for a time with his parents in England. When this didn't pan out, they returned to Thailand, where Charnaud bought two bars in the resort of Hua Hin.

They had a son, Daniel, but Pannada's gambling habit and £50,000 debts drove them apart and the couple divorced, with Charnaud gaining custody of the boy.

Toby Charnaud was murdered, presumably for his money, after being lured to Pannada's remote border village to see his son, who had been visiting his mother.

There, he was greeted by five men who, it is alleged, clubbed, shot and hacked him to death. His corpse was then burnt and the remains strewn across the jungly countryside.

It is a uniquely horrible story. Yet the impetus that drove Toby Charnaud to give up his life in England and risk his happiness in the arms of a Thai good-time girl is not unique.

Many Western men take inordinate gambles with young South-East Asian women, the kind of gambles they would never consider at home.

Why? Obviously, there is a physical attraction. For many Western men, the slender, petite, ever-youthful figures of Eastern women can be seriously alluring. Then there is a cultural aspect: Thai women have a grace, a femininity and a deferential sexiness that many women in the West appear to have forsaken.

The attraction of female submissiveness might be reprehensible, but it is none the less real. Who doesn't like having their clothes washed, their meals cooked and their brow smoothed by a soft and loving hand?

Yes, I know the temptation well. For something not entirely dissimilar happened to me, another thirtysomething Englishman, a few years ago.

I was holidaying on the Thai island of Koh Samui and in a noisy bar I met Sunee. She was pretty, 25 and great fun - one of those seductive Eastern women who inhabit the blurred moral zone between party animal and prostitute.

And I fell for her. It was more than a holiday romance and, when the time drew near for me to leave, there were tears from her and regrets from me.

Two dizzy weeks after we met, I had to fly home. I kissed Sunee, said goodbye and heard very little more for nearly half a year.

Then, out of the blue, I got an e-mail from her. "I have something to tell you. I am five months' pregnant." My head swam.

What should I do? My friends were divided. Some told me that I should forget about the woman. How did I know she wasn't scamming, fishing for money? Others advised me that I had to do the right thing. I had to ascertain if this baby was mine.

Four months later, that is what I did. I flew to Bangkok. Sunee and I had arranged to meet in my hotel. When she knocked on the door, she was carrying the tiny newborn.

Then she started crying. I hugged her, wordlessly, because I didn't know what to say. I didn't feel great passion for Sunee any more, yet I wanted to do the right thing. Whatever that was.

Then I cradled the baby. It was shattering. I hadn't expected the overwhelming emotions, the conflicting sensations that flooded me. I was 38, childless and single. Now, here was this perfect, vulnerable thing in my hands. My son, maybe.

Somehow, I got a grip. Before I had flown to Bangkok, I had established the best method of DNA-testing a baby. This, it turned out, was the "buccal swab" method.

You sweep a cotton bud across the inner cheek of the child's mouth, gathering cells. Putting the baby on my lap, I got out the cotton buds.

As I did, Sunee looked at me sorrowfully, perhaps contemptuously. It wasn't hard to sense what she was thinking. "How can you do this? How can you not trust me?"

I steeled myself and scraped the cotton buds, and sealed them in an envelope, which was then dispatched to a genetic-testing company in Britain.

Then I waited. And waited. I spent days sitting by my Bangkok hotel swimming pool, fretting. Half of me wanted this adorable child to be mine. Yet I had to find out the truth.

In the end, I couldn't help myself. Before I got the DNA test results, I went to see Sunee and the baby one more time. I had resolved not to do this because I was scared of the unmanageable emotion, that upwelling of paternal love.

It was a long drive across Bangkok to her tiny flat. There, I sat with Sunee and the child. We chatted and sipped tea, and I helped her feed the baby.

As I did, I started marvelling at the boy. Weren't those my eyes? Surely that was my nose, my mouth, even my Yorkshire complexion? Why did I need to do a test when I could see with my own eyes: this was my son.

I very nearly cracked. Back at the hotel, I decided to cancel the DNA tests and accept the child as mine. But when I picked up the phone, a small voice inside me said: "No, this is wrong. You will always have doubts if you don't find out now."

I put the phone down. The following day, the results came through. "We are 100 per cent sure the alleged father, Will Jory, is not the true father of this child." The boy wasn't mine.

My first reaction was anger - at Sunee, at life, at myself. I refused to see Sunee or the baby before I left. When she rang in tears, I rang off. On my return to London, the anger slowly abated.

It dawned on me that Sunee had convinced herself that I was the father because she so desperately wanted me to be the father.

The timing was right, she had my e-mail address, we had sort of fallen in love. And she was a single and frightened young mother, without any options. I understood.

But even when the anger had gone, the melancholy remained. I felt like someone had given me a son and then snatched him away. I was aware that my feelings were irrational, but that was no help. I was bereft.

Over time, however, these feelings mellowed. Two years have passed and now I think very differently.

As I see it, much of what happened was my own fault. After all, it was me who fell for Sunee so hard that I stupidly dispensed with the usual precautions when we had sex.

But why did I do that? What is it about young, seemingly vulnerable Thai women that makes so many Englishmen take such absurd risks?

For as poor Charnaud and I discovered, their submissiveness can come at a cost.

Thai women often see their older, wealthier white partners as saviours in all situations, such as pregnancy or gambling debts. And when the saviour fails, the reckoning can be painful.

For many, the Oriental fantasy should remain precisely that.

• Some names have been changed

Source: Telegraph Online

[lannarebirth]

It seems that the following article was prompted by the above sad tale:

Beware the Oriental fantasy

Many Westerners holiday in South-East Asia and return home with a spouse. Will Jory tells of his own traumatic experience

Regular visitors to Thailand will know the sight well: a wealthy, older Englishman arm in arm with the attractive Bangkok bar girl for whom he has fallen. Unfortunately, for 41-year-old, Marlborough-educated Toby Charnaud, his Oriental fantasy ended in bloody murder, according to reports now emerging from a Thai court.

Among the accused is his ex-wife, Pannada Laoruang, whom Charnaud met - yes - in a Bangkok bar, having sold his £2.5 million estate in Wiltshire to go travelling. The couple married in 1997 and lived for a time with his parents in England. When this didn't pan out, they returned to Thailand, where Charnaud bought two bars in the resort of Hua Hin.

They had a son, Daniel, but Pannada's gambling habit and £50,000 debts drove them apart and the couple divorced, with Charnaud gaining custody of the boy.

Toby Charnaud was murdered, presumably for his money, after being lured to Pannada's remote border village to see his son, who had been visiting his mother.

There, he was greeted by five men who, it is alleged, clubbed, shot and hacked him to death. His corpse was then burnt and the remains strewn across the jungly countryside.

It is a uniquely horrible story. Yet the impetus that drove Toby Charnaud to give up his life in England and risk his happiness in the arms of a Thai good-time girl is not unique.

Many Western men take inordinate gambles with young South-East Asian women, the kind of gambles they would never consider at home.

Why? Obviously, there is a physical attraction. For many Western men, the slender, petite, ever-youthful figures of Eastern women can be seriously alluring. Then there is a cultural aspect: Thai women have a grace, a femininity and a deferential sexiness that many women in the West appear to have forsaken.

The attraction of female submissiveness might be reprehensible, but it is none the less real. Who doesn't like having their clothes washed, their meals cooked and their brow smoothed by a soft and loving hand?

Yes, I know the temptation well. For something not entirely dissimilar happened to me, another thirtysomething Englishman, a few years ago.

I was holidaying on the Thai island of Koh Samui and in a noisy bar I met Sunee. She was pretty, 25 and great fun - one of those seductive Eastern women who inhabit the blurred moral zone between party animal and prostitute.

And I fell for her. It was more than a holiday romance and, when the time drew near for me to leave, there were tears from her and regrets from me.

Two dizzy weeks after we met, I had to fly home. I kissed Sunee, said goodbye and heard very little more for nearly half a year.

Then, out of the blue, I got an e-mail from her. "I have something to tell you. I am five months' pregnant." My head swam.

What should I do? My friends were divided. Some told me that I should forget about the woman. How did I know she wasn't scamming, fishing for money? Others advised me that I had to do the right thing. I had to ascertain if this baby was mine.

Four months later, that is what I did. I flew to Bangkok. Sunee and I had arranged to meet in my hotel. When she knocked on the door, she was carrying the tiny newborn.

Then she started crying. I hugged her, wordlessly, because I didn't know what to say. I didn't feel great passion for Sunee any more, yet I wanted to do the right thing. Whatever that was.

Then I cradled the baby. It was shattering. I hadn't expected the overwhelming emotions, the conflicting sensations that flooded me. I was 38, childless and single. Now, here was this perfect, vulnerable thing in my hands. My son, maybe.

Somehow, I got a grip. Before I had flown to Bangkok, I had established the best method of DNA-testing a baby. This, it turned out, was the "buccal swab" method.

You sweep a cotton bud across the inner cheek of the child's mouth, gathering cells. Putting the baby on my lap, I got out the cotton buds.

As I did, Sunee looked at me sorrowfully, perhaps contemptuously. It wasn't hard to sense what she was thinking. "How can you do this? How can you not trust me?"

I steeled myself and scraped the cotton buds, and sealed them in an envelope, which was then dispatched to a genetic-testing company in Britain.

Then I waited. And waited. I spent days sitting by my Bangkok hotel swimming pool, fretting. Half of me wanted this adorable child to be mine. Yet I had to find out the truth.

In the end, I couldn't help myself. Before I got the DNA test results, I went to see Sunee and the baby one more time. I had resolved not to do this because I was scared of the unmanageable emotion, that upwelling of paternal love.

It was a long drive across Bangkok to her tiny flat. There, I sat with Sunee and the child. We chatted and sipped tea, and I helped her feed the baby.

As I did, I started marvelling at the boy. Weren't those my eyes? Surely that was my nose, my mouth, even my Yorkshire complexion? Why did I need to do a test when I could see with my own eyes: this was my son.

I very nearly cracked. Back at the hotel, I decided to cancel the DNA tests and accept the child as mine. But when I picked up the phone, a small voice inside me said: "No, this is wrong. You will always have doubts if you don't find out now."

I put the phone down. The following day, the results came through. "We are 100 per cent sure the alleged father, Will Jory, is not the true father of this child." The boy wasn't mine.

My first reaction was anger - at Sunee, at life, at myself. I refused to see Sunee or the baby before I left. When she rang in tears, I rang off. On my return to London, the anger slowly abated.

It dawned on me that Sunee had convinced herself that I was the father because she so desperately wanted me to be the father.

The timing was right, she had my e-mail address, we had sort of fallen in love. And she was a single and frightened young mother, without any options. I understood.

But even when the anger had gone, the melancholy remained. I felt like someone had given me a son and then snatched him away. I was aware that my feelings were irrational, but that was no help. I was bereft.

Over time, however, these feelings mellowed. Two years have passed and now I think very differently.

As I see it, much of what happened was my own fault. After all, it was me who fell for Sunee so hard that I stupidly dispensed with the usual precautions when we had sex.

But why did I do that? What is it about young, seemingly vulnerable Thai women that makes so many Englishmen take such absurd risks?

For as poor Charnaud and I discovered, their submissiveness can come at a cost.

Thai women often see their older, wealthier white partners as saviours in all situations, such as pregnancy or gambling debts. And when the saviour fails, the reckoning can be painful.

For many, the Oriental fantasy should remain precisely that.

• Some names have been changed

Source: Telegraph Online

Condolences to the family of the dead guy. Shame on the respective bargirls for their actions, and shame too on the authour of this unadulterated, self serving tripe article you've just pasted.

[ratcatcher]

I hope they fry the wife

At the risk of being charged with total insensitivity in the thread about this tragic case, in answer to your comment above, what batter would you suggest they coat her in before they fry her in oil?

Sadly the victim was battered then barbecued according to the story.

[ratcatcher]

Three others admitted murder with provocation, saying Mr Charnaud had interrupted them when they were drinking whisky.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ say wha????

-------------------

Thanks for the update, Rinrada.

Here are the previous threads on thaivisa concerning this remarkably unsettling case:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=33458&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=33478&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=44182&hl=

It's good to hear that the case has gone to court now.

I hope they fry the wife

At the risk of being charged with total insensitivity in the thread about this tragic case, in answer to your comment above, what batter would you suggest they coat her in before they fry her in oil?

Sadly the victim was battered then barbecued according to the story.

[Colonel_Mustard]

My sympathies go out to him and his family.

But does anybody on here not find it insulting, to use the words "Thai Bride"? After all they had been married 9 years. Would they still call 2 english people married for that long a "Bride". NO, it seems like they want to label anybody with a Thai Wife, with the stigma that they got them off the internet. To me, it is just as "Racist" as calling someone a "Paki" etc. and yet you could be taken to court (in the UK) for saying such a thing. Makes my blood boil

You can't have your cake and eat it. This is exactly the type of thing i was talking about in a previous thread, The bargirls and Farang that play with them giving all a bad name.

my thoughts exactly,

im always off side with a certain amount of people when this very point is raised but i'll repeat it again, again and again if nec'essary.

why would an educated, financially independant man possibly want to marry a bar girl that has slept with hundreds of farang ?

can someone out there please give me an itelligent answer to my conundrum ?

btw. please dont throw up the same old trash that is :

A. i was lonely

B i fell in love

C she needed saving from the bar.

D i really wanted to buy her a bar and a condo.

im waiting patiently but getting increasingly bored with the answers.

Because they're more attractive than farang women that have slept with hundreds of farang?

Maybe not everyone judges people on their past sexual history?

Maybe the bar girls seem a bit more interesting and Western orientated than their non-bar girl compatriots?

Maybe none of the above but I guess that's their business.

[ratcatcher]

my apologies for the double post.

[terry57]

Qualtrough, you just broke Terry's record of keeping the whole thread to himself for over a page.

sorry about going hard and hogging the thread but i ain't got time to be sitting here all day.

i have to get into it whilst i have the chance so its a matter of spitting it all out in while the i have time.

cheers

[sua yai]

Some of you have just turned this thread around into a pathetic discussion of semantics and perceptions.

Do, please, remember that some knew Toby - look where I come from.

If you want to have a converstion about "Thai Brides", have the decency to do it on another thread.

Really demeaning and a sad reflection on this sensitive topic.

[fruittbatt]

Condolences to the family of this man. They must feel so betrayed and so horrified when they consider the extreme and vicious violence of this group murder. I also find it quite eerie to consider Toby Charnaud's prescience in foretelling his death in fiction. Does anyone have a link to the prize-winning story?

[terry57]

i personally am on the side of the bar girls as if these guys are so stupid to enter into this game they are deserving of there fate.

What !! You think this guy deserved this fate!!

that annoys you ? thats your problem jangles!

Oh !! Alright then, thanks for putting me straight !!

i for one find the word "paki" to be racist as we know that this is usually how it is meant to be taken.

That's your problem Heinz57

the term " thaibride" does not worry me as i have respect for thai women and know that many men have lovely thai wifes.

I didn't say it "worries" me, i said it "annoys" me, as it is stereotyping all Thai ladies.

as far as all thai "thaibrides" being perceived as being pulled of the internet this is a rediculous comment and has no bases at all.

Wrong !! Not ridiculous (in my view, if you will kindly permit me to have my own view) !!

remember your last comment "in my view" .

we do not all have "your view" as each of us is entitled to our "own view" and this is what keeps thaiforum ticking over.

Exactly, it was my view and everyone is allowed their own but you are trying to turn this into a flamefest or at the very least, attacking those who don't share your view!!

My wife finds the case very distressing for at least two reasons. Sad for the man and his young son, and sad because it is bad PR for Thai wives in general, however unjustified that might be.

That's the point i was making qualtrough

EDIT - P.S Terry, above is a fine example of how to use the quote function, so that you don't end up using a full page of "your DRIVEL view"

hey jangles ,

look, you good a bleeding top point there about using the quote function as i cant get a handle on it so help me out will you please and explain it to me. ( im serious ) check all my posts if you think im joking on this one.

ok back to freaking business.

regarding the poor guy getting killed. i certainly did'nt think that was a top idea and feel sympathy for himself and his poor parents as they obviously treated his thai wife with respect.

i say she needs a bullet and the others that helped to torture this guy need the chop as well as capital punishment is right up my alley. eye for an eye sort of gig.

A. stereotyping all thai ladies? no its not, and as said before, only in "your mind and view."

B. not rediculous : yes it is but in "my view only"

C. Flamefest and attacking those that who dont share my view:

Insane comment, as if this quote was true id be kicked of the thread, this is not my intention and only taken as such in "your mind and view" which you are intitled to but are misplaced

on this occasion

D. bad pr for wifes in general: did'nt i say i have respect for thai women or are you blind jangles.

E. my drivel: crick's jangles now you need to get a grip here my good fellow as not once did i ever call your post drivel and certainly made no personal attack on your self. the mods view this practise very dimly and i dont want to be moderated.

please be open to other peoples views and dont be so quick to go on the offensive. its not neccesary as we are only engaging in open debate.

cheers

ps. please help me with the quote fuction as it got me bushed, but only after you've cooled down a bit and are not sorry angry at me .

thanks

[terry57]

It seems that the following article was prompted by the above sad tale:

Beware the Oriental fantasy

Many Westerners holiday in South-East Asia and return home with a spouse. Will Jory tells of his own traumatic experience

Regular visitors to Thailand will know the sight well: a wealthy, older Englishman arm in arm with the attractive Bangkok bar girl for whom he has fallen. Unfortunately, for 41-year-old, Marlborough-educated Toby Charnaud, his Oriental fantasy ended in bloody murder, according to reports now emerging from a Thai court.

Among the accused is his ex-wife, Pannada Laoruang, whom Charnaud met - yes - in a Bangkok bar, having sold his £2.5 million estate in Wiltshire to go travelling. The couple married in 1997 and lived for a time with his parents in England. When this didn't pan out, they returned to Thailand, where Charnaud bought two bars in the resort of Hua Hin.

They had a son, Daniel, but Pannada's gambling habit and £50,000 debts drove them apart and the couple divorced, with Charnaud gaining custody of the boy.

Toby Charnaud was murdered, presumably for his money, after being lured to Pannada's remote border village to see his son, who had been visiting his mother.

There, he was greeted by five men who, it is alleged, clubbed, shot and hacked him to death. His corpse was then burnt and the remains strewn across the jungly countryside.

It is a uniquely horrible story. Yet the impetus that drove Toby Charnaud to give up his life in England and risk his happiness in the arms of a Thai good-time girl is not unique.

Many Western men take inordinate gambles with young South-East Asian women, the kind of gambles they would never consider at home.

Why? Obviously, there is a physical attraction. For many Western men, the slender, petite, ever-youthful figures of Eastern women can be seriously alluring. Then there is a cultural aspect: Thai women have a grace, a femininity and a deferential sexiness that many women in the West appear to have forsaken.

The attraction of female submissiveness might be reprehensible, but it is none the less real. Who doesn't like having their clothes washed, their meals cooked and their brow smoothed by a soft and loving hand?

Yes, I know the temptation well. For something not entirely dissimilar happened to me, another thirtysomething Englishman, a few years ago.

I was holidaying on the Thai island of Koh Samui and in a noisy bar I met Sunee. She was pretty, 25 and great fun - one of those seductive Eastern women who inhabit the blurred moral zone between party animal and prostitute.

And I fell for her. It was more than a holiday romance and, when the time drew near for me to leave, there were tears from her and regrets from me.

Two dizzy weeks after we met, I had to fly home. I kissed Sunee, said goodbye and heard very little more for nearly half a year.

Then, out of the blue, I got an e-mail from her. "I have something to tell you. I am five months' pregnant." My head swam.

What should I do? My friends were divided. Some told me that I should forget about the woman. How did I know she wasn't scamming, fishing for money? Others advised me that I had to do the right thing. I had to ascertain if this baby was mine.

Four months later, that is what I did. I flew to Bangkok. Sunee and I had arranged to meet in my hotel. When she knocked on the door, she was carrying the tiny newborn.

Then she started crying. I hugged her, wordlessly, because I didn't know what to say. I didn't feel great passion for Sunee any more, yet I wanted to do the right thing. Whatever that was.

Then I cradled the baby. It was shattering. I hadn't expected the overwhelming emotions, the conflicting sensations that flooded me. I was 38, childless and single. Now, here was this perfect, vulnerable thing in my hands. My son, maybe.

Somehow, I got a grip. Before I had flown to Bangkok, I had established the best method of DNA-testing a baby. This, it turned out, was the "buccal swab" method.

You sweep a cotton bud across the inner cheek of the child's mouth, gathering cells. Putting the baby on my lap, I got out the cotton buds.

As I did, Sunee looked at me sorrowfully, perhaps contemptuously. It wasn't hard to sense what she was thinking. "How can you do this? How can you not trust me?"

I steeled myself and scraped the cotton buds, and sealed them in an envelope, which was then dispatched to a genetic-testing company in Britain.

Then I waited. And waited. I spent days sitting by my Bangkok hotel swimming pool, fretting. Half of me wanted this adorable child to be mine. Yet I had to find out the truth.

In the end, I couldn't help myself. Before I got the DNA test results, I went to see Sunee and the baby one more time. I had resolved not to do this because I was scared of the unmanageable emotion, that upwelling of paternal love.

It was a long drive across Bangkok to her tiny flat. There, I sat with Sunee and the child. We chatted and sipped tea, and I helped her feed the baby.

As I did, I started marvelling at the boy. Weren't those my eyes? Surely that was my nose, my mouth, even my Yorkshire complexion? Why did I need to do a test when I could see with my own eyes: this was my son.

I very nearly cracked. Back at the hotel, I decided to cancel the DNA tests and accept the child as mine. But when I picked up the phone, a small voice inside me said: "No, this is wrong. You will always have doubts if you don't find out now."

I put the phone down. The following day, the results came through. "We are 100 per cent sure the alleged father, Will Jory, is not the true father of this child." The boy wasn't mine.

My first reaction was anger - at Sunee, at life, at myself. I refused to see Sunee or the baby before I left. When she rang in tears, I rang off. On my return to London, the anger slowly abated.

It dawned on me that Sunee had convinced herself that I was the father because she so desperately wanted me to be the father.

The timing was right, she had my e-mail address, we had sort of fallen in love. And she was a single and frightened young mother, without any options. I understood.

But even when the anger had gone, the melancholy remained. I felt like someone had given me a son and then snatched him away. I was aware that my feelings were irrational, but that was no help. I was bereft.

Over time, however, these feelings mellowed. Two years have passed and now I think very differently.

As I see it, much of what happened was my own fault. After all, it was me who fell for Sunee so hard that I stupidly dispensed with the usual precautions when we had sex.

But why did I do that? What is it about young, seemingly vulnerable Thai women that makes so many Englishmen take such absurd risks?

For as poor Charnaud and I discovered, their submissiveness can come at a cost.

Thai women often see their older, wealthier white partners as saviours in all situations, such as pregnancy or gambling debts. And when the saviour fails, the reckoning can be painful.

For many, the Oriental fantasy should remain precisely that.

• Some names have been changed

Source: Telegraph Online

thanks for that read as thats exactly what i have thought all along to be the case.

[fruittbatt]

Some of you have just turned this thread around into a pathetic discussion of semantics and perceptions.

Do, please, remember that some knew Toby - look where I come from.

If you want to have a converstion about "Thai Brides", have the decency to do it on another thread.

Really demeaning and a sad reflection on this sensitive topic.

thank you sua yai. i find the violence of Toby Charnaud's death too horrible to contemplate and I suspect that all the bluster and b...s... we are hearing from so many posters to this thread masks similar feelings which people just can't deal with so they lock horns over trivial aspects of the reporting of the murder instead. Grow up guys.

[terry57]

It seems that the following article was prompted by the above sad tale:

Beware the Oriental fantasy

Many Westerners holiday in South-East Asia and return home with a spouse. Will Jory tells of his own traumatic experience

Regular visitors to Thailand will know the sight well: a wealthy, older Englishman arm in arm with the attractive Bangkok bar girl for whom he has fallen. Unfortunately, for 41-year-old, Marlborough-educated Toby Charnaud, his Oriental fantasy ended in bloody murder, according to reports now emerging from a Thai court.

Among the accused is his ex-wife, Pannada Laoruang, whom Charnaud met - yes - in a Bangkok bar, having sold his £2.5 million estate in Wiltshire to go travelling. The couple married in 1997 and lived for a time with his parents in England. When this didn't pan out, they returned to Thailand, where Charnaud bought two bars in the resort of Hua Hin.

They had a son, Daniel, but Pannada's gambling habit and £50,000 debts drove them apart and the couple divorced, with Charnaud gaining custody of the boy.

Toby Charnaud was murdered, presumably for his money, after being lured to Pannada's remote border village to see his son, who had been visiting his mother.

There, he was greeted by five men who, it is alleged, clubbed, shot and hacked him to death. His corpse was then burnt and the remains strewn across the jungly countryside.

It is a uniquely horrible story. Yet the impetus that drove Toby Charnaud to give up his life in England and risk his happiness in the arms of a Thai good-time girl is not unique.

Many Western men take inordinate gambles with young South-East Asian women, the kind of gambles they would never consider at home.

Why? Obviously, there is a physical attraction. For many Western men, the slender, petite, ever-youthful figures of Eastern women can be seriously alluring. Then there is a cultural aspect: Thai women have a grace, a femininity and a deferential sexiness that many women in the West appear to have forsaken.

The attraction of female submissiveness might be reprehensible, but it is none the less real. Who doesn't like having their clothes washed, their meals cooked and their brow smoothed by a soft and loving hand?

Yes, I know the temptation well. For something not entirely dissimilar happened to me, another thirtysomething Englishman, a few years ago.

I was holidaying on the Thai island of Koh Samui and in a noisy bar I met Sunee. She was pretty, 25 and great fun - one of those seductive Eastern women who inhabit the blurred moral zone between party animal and prostitute.

And I fell for her. It was more than a holiday romance and, when the time drew near for me to leave, there were tears from her and regrets from me.

Two dizzy weeks after we met, I had to fly home. I kissed Sunee, said goodbye and heard very little more for nearly half a year.

Then, out of the blue, I got an e-mail from her. "I have something to tell you. I am five months' pregnant." My head swam.

What should I do? My friends were divided. Some told me that I should forget about the woman. How did I know she wasn't scamming, fishing for money? Others advised me that I had to do the right thing. I had to ascertain if this baby was mine.

Four months later, that is what I did. I flew to Bangkok. Sunee and I had arranged to meet in my hotel. When she knocked on the door, she was carrying the tiny newborn.

Then she started crying. I hugged her, wordlessly, because I didn't know what to say. I didn't feel great passion for Sunee any more, yet I wanted to do the right thing. Whatever that was.

Then I cradled the baby. It was shattering. I hadn't expected the overwhelming emotions, the conflicting sensations that flooded me. I was 38, childless and single. Now, here was this perfect, vulnerable thing in my hands. My son, maybe.

Somehow, I got a grip. Before I had flown to Bangkok, I had established the best method of DNA-testing a baby. This, it turned out, was the "buccal swab" method.

You sweep a cotton bud across the inner cheek of the child's mouth, gathering cells. Putting the baby on my lap, I got out the cotton buds.

As I did, Sunee looked at me sorrowfully, perhaps contemptuously. It wasn't hard to sense what she was thinking. "How can you do this? How can you not trust me?"

I steeled myself and scraped the cotton buds, and sealed them in an envelope, which was then dispatched to a genetic-testing company in Britain.

Then I waited. And waited. I spent days sitting by my Bangkok hotel swimming pool, fretting. Half of me wanted this adorable child to be mine. Yet I had to find out the truth.

In the end, I couldn't help myself. Before I got the DNA test results, I went to see Sunee and the baby one more time. I had resolved not to do this because I was scared of the unmanageable emotion, that upwelling of paternal love.

It was a long drive across Bangkok to her tiny flat. There, I sat with Sunee and the child. We chatted and sipped tea, and I helped her feed the baby.

As I did, I started marvelling at the boy. Weren't those my eyes? Surely that was my nose, my mouth, even my Yorkshire complexion? Why did I need to do a test when I could see with my own eyes: this was my son.

I very nearly cracked. Back at the hotel, I decided to cancel the DNA tests and accept the child as mine. But when I picked up the phone, a small voice inside me said: "No, this is wrong. You will always have doubts if you don't find out now."

I put the phone down. The following day, the results came through. "We are 100 per cent sure the alleged father, Will Jory, is not the true father of this child." The boy wasn't mine.

My first reaction was anger - at Sunee, at life, at myself. I refused to see Sunee or the baby before I left. When she rang in tears, I rang off. On my return to London, the anger slowly abated.

It dawned on me that Sunee had convinced herself that I was the father because she so desperately wanted me to be the father.

The timing was right, she had my e-mail address, we had sort of fallen in love. And she was a single and frightened young mother, without any options. I understood.

But even when the anger had gone, the melancholy remained. I felt like someone had given me a son and then snatched him away. I was aware that my feelings were irrational, but that was no help. I was bereft.

Over time, however, these feelings mellowed. Two years have passed and now I think very differently.

As I see it, much of what happened was my own fault. After all, it was me who fell for Sunee so hard that I stupidly dispensed with the usual precautions when we had sex.

But why did I do that? What is it about young, seemingly vulnerable Thai women that makes so many Englishmen take such absurd risks?

For as poor Charnaud and I discovered, their submissiveness can come at a cost.

Thai women often see their older, wealthier white partners as saviours in all situations, such as pregnancy or gambling debts. And when the saviour fails, the reckoning can be painful.

For many, the Oriental fantasy should remain precisely that.

• Some names have been changed

Source: Telegraph Online

Condolences to the family of the dead guy. Shame on the respective bargirls for their actions, and shame too on the authour of this unadulterated, self serving tripe article you've just pasted.

sorry about this fella,

but you have completly lost me on that last piece : "self serving tripe"

could you please expand on your thoughts a tad as im gob smacked at your comment.

cheers

[sua yai]

You're losing the plot again, aren't you, Terry57?

As I said before, have a bit of respect.

If you can answer yes to the following simple questions:

1. Did you know Toby and

2. Did you know his wife

Then I'll shut up.

This murder shocked HH and I'm sure that most here and elsewhere would like that justice is done and seen to be done.

This isn't the place for your or anyone elses' opinionated comments that lead from certain comments made by misguided British newspapers.

[terry57]

My sympathies go out to him and his family.

But does anybody on here not find it insulting, to use the words "Thai Bride"? After all they had been married 9 years. Would they still call 2 english people married for that long a "Bride". NO, it seems like they want to label anybody with a Thai Wife, with the stigma that they got them off the internet. To me, it is just as "Racist" as calling someone a "Paki" etc. and yet you could be taken to court (in the UK) for saying such a thing. Makes my blood boil

You can't have your cake and eat it. This is exactly the type of thing i was talking about in a previous thread, The bargirls and Farang that play with them giving all a bad name.

my thoughts exactly,

im always off side with a certain amount of people when this very point is raised but i'll repeat it again, again and again if nec'essary.

why would an educated, financially independant man possibly want to marry a bar girl that has slept with hundreds of farang ?

can someone out there please give me an itelligent answer to my conundrum ?

btw. please dont throw up the same old trash that is :

A. i was lonely

B i fell in love

C she needed saving from the bar.

D i really wanted to buy her a bar and a condo.

im waiting patiently but getting increasingly bored with the answers.

Because they're more attractive than farang women that have slept with hundreds of farang?

Maybe not everyone judges people on their past sexual history?

Maybe the bar girls seem a bit more interesting and Western orientated than their non-bar girl compatriots?

Maybe none of the above but I guess that's their business.

that a fare enough comment as you are entitled to your view,

<snip>

cheers

/Mod Edit - offensive comments deleted.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Jai Dee

[terry57]

Condolences to the family of this man. They must feel so betrayed and so horrified when they consider the extreme and vicious violence of this group murder. I also find it quite eerie to consider Toby Charnaud's prescience in foretelling his death in fiction. Does anyone have a link to the prize-winning story?

hey batty, is that a fictional story?

i must of missed that, as i was taking it as a factual story.

can you please set me straight on that one.

thanks

[lannarebirth]

"but you have completly lost me on that last piece : "self serving tripe"

Ok. In my view the guy was 100% responsible for the situation in which he found himself. Even he allowed that the bargirl would naturally assume the child was his. He went on at length about his mock (IMO)parental stirrings, when in fact he was looking to slip the noose and assign blame elsewhere; which he did.

Apoligies and condolences to sua vai. No more OT response from me.

Edited August 3, 2006 by lannarebirth

[taxin]

You're losing the plot again, aren't you, Terry57?

As I said before, have a bit of respect.

If you can answer yes to the following simple questions:

1. Did you know Toby and

2. Did you know his wife

Then I'll shut up.

This murder shocked HH and I'm sure that most here and elsewhere would like that justice is done and seen to be done.

This isn't the place for your or anyone elses' opinionated comments that lead from certain comments made by misguided British newspapers.

Another man battered to death by his whore wife ! Som Nom f***ing Na I say !!

You guys just never seizes to amaze me, "did you know his wife", "did you know him" ?.... "You dont know the story".... RUBBISH ! Stupid falang meets whore, whore tops stupid falang, STORY, PERIOD !

This guy was with the slut long enough to hear all the stories and warnings, warnings that fell on deaf ears.

You stick your knob in the fire it will get burnt, and thats exactly what happened !!

All you Guys shacked up with whores, if the missus walks in with a bag of charcoal, run until your legs cant run no more !!!

[SamuiJens]

Source: Telegraph Online

Condolences to the family of the dead guy. Shame on the respective bargirls for their actions, and shame too on the authour of this unadulterated, self serving tripe article you've just pasted.

Ja, a sad story in LOS. BUT, how can you put down the writtings of a English man, much like yourself, I'd bet, at least in some ways, I can read that story and understand that Things happen when you're on a holiday in a place where you don't know the culture and how the people REALLY are, at heart, at lest some of them. I could have been another country, even England! Get REAL Ratcatcher, Your NO danm better, just got a bit smarter with the years and reading others views on some subjects! Thats Life; Temtations!

[fruittbatt]

Condolences to the family of this man. They must feel so betrayed and so horrified when they consider the extreme and vicious violence of this group murder. I also find it quite eerie to consider Toby Charnaud's prescience in foretelling his death in fiction. Does anyone have a link to the prize-winning story?

hey batty, is that a fictional story?

i must of missed that, as i was taking it as a factual story.

can you please set me straight on that one.

thanks

Toby Charnaud won a short story competition in Bangkok prior to his death. The story paralleled the circumstances of his own life, including the fact that his wife/ex-wife tries to murder him. The difference between fact and fiction is in the gruesome execution of this poor man. I find the crime really hideous in that it was so vicious and violent. My condolences to the family and the friends of Toby Charnaud. I think we should respect the feelings of those who knew him as they are obviously still mourning his death.

[terry57]

You're losing the plot again, aren't you, Terry57?

As I said before, have a bit of respect.

If you can answer yes to the following simple questions:

1. Did you know Toby and

2. Did you know his wife

Then I'll shut up.

This murder shocked HH and I'm sure that most here and elsewhere would like that justice is done and seen to be done.

This isn't the place for your or anyone elses' opinionated comments that lead from certain comments made by misguided British newspapers.

hey yai, you can call me terry as im kosha with that ok.

look fella you jumped the gun again and lets get some bleeding things sorted out here once and for all before someone has a frigging stroke.

A. know of course i did'nt know toby. did you?

b. did i know his wife ? no!! did you ?

but if i could id love to be the executioner of this horrid piece of work.

C. opinionated comments : jesus mate, thats what this forum is all about, comments and discussion to try and sort out what is really going on but it takes time so please wait till we get sorted before you chuck a spack.

not very patient are you yai.

i dont mind copping some flack but please get your facts together before you get in to me.

look im not angry at you as i realise you are human and have just made a blue.

can we please carry on without getting to reactive about this topic as its stifling the debate.

next please.

[terry57]

"but you have completly lost me on that last piece : "self serving tripe"

Ok. In my view the guy was 100% responsible for the situation in which he found himself. Even he allowed that the bargirl would naturally assume the child was his. He went on at length about his mock (IMO)parental stirrings, when in fact he was looking to slip the noose and assign blame elsewhere; which he did.

Apoligies and condolences to sua vai. No more OT response from me.

lovely,

thanks very much for explaning that to me as im with you 110 % with your comments.

trouble is some people cant handle the truth and go nuts when we throw up this brilliant piece of common sense.

cheers birth