Stabbed in the back.

[Eddy B]

A few months ago I went for a job interview for a teaching job. I felt the interview went well, considering I had been given no information as to who I needed to show a demo class too. It was actually to the teachers, all eight of them. I had no white board to use so I just used a simple introductions lesson. Everyone seemed happy and I thought I was 80% certain to get the job. Well, I didn't. I was alittle confused as to why. I heard one story was because I had not given a written lesson plan. Like I said, they just told me to be ready to give a demo and I had no idea what age group or who I was going to teach, so I had to kind of rely on nine years of teaching experience to back me up. Just recently my wife who came with me for the interview and had to wait outside, met a woman from the office I had the interview. She heard I did not get the job was because they had called a previous school I had worked at 4 yrs ago had spoken bad about me. Now, I kind of know who this individual at the school would be but I can not prove it 100% at the moment.

Now back home, if you have had a problem with a previous employer or just left after finishing your contract, they can either decide not to give any information about you, but also they can not slander your name either so that you can not get another job. How does this happen in Thailand? Can I sue them for defamation of character? I have left that school now for over 4 yrs and yes it is in my CV as I did put 5 yrs of work into that school. Anyone have some advice as this has annoyed me alot that after 4 yrs this school can still basically block any jobs I go for regardless of where I wish to work in Thailand.

I would like only constructive comments, please!

[inzman]

Slander laws here are criminal and very serious. But you will need proof. I doubt the new school will support you in this. They tend to be non confrontational here.

[stubuzz]

I heard one story was because I had not given a written lesson plan. Like I said, they just told me to be ready to give a demo and I had no idea what age group or who I was going to teach,

No lesson plan showed that you were not ready to give a demo lesson.

they had called a previous school I had worked at 4 yrs ago had spoken bad about me. Now, I kind of know who this individual at the school would be but I can not prove it 100% at the moment.

You kind of know who it was, so you know what you did. Care to share what you did?

[somchaismith]

You're probably better off with this in the 'Ask the lawyer' forum'. However, as a previous poster mentioned, good luck with proving anything if it wasn't put on paper.

Maybe you could try emailing your previous employer, and getting something in writing, if you're articulate enough.

Edited November 14, 2014 by somchaismith

[casualbiker]

I heard one story was because I had not given a written lesson plan. Like I said, they just told me to be ready to give a demo and I had no idea what age group or who I was going to teach,

No lesson plan showed that you were not ready to give a demo lesson.

they had called a previous school I had worked at 4 yrs ago had spoken bad about me. Now, I kind of know who this individual at the school would be but I can not prove it 100% at the moment.

You kind of know who it was, so you know what you did. Care to share what you did?

So you could write a lesson plan based on the information provided?

[stubuzz]

Yes. I would of asked who the demo lesson was intended for during the interview. If they didn't know, i would of prepared 2 or 3 different lesson incorporating the same ides at varying levels of difficulty. It shows that you are prepared and have planned beforehand.

[SlyAnimal]

Thailand has defamation/slander laws which are much more strict than most western countries when it comes to defamation/slander.

But if you were in a western country, and someone gave you a bad reference, I very much doubt you could take any legal action against them (Unless what they were saying was completely fictional or unsolicited, and even then, you'd need some kind of evidence of the slander). As the entire point of a reference, is to ask your previous employers what they thought about you, if they couldn't say anything which was critical of you, then what would be the point in even doing it?

I imagine much the same applies here, but as I said, defamation/slander law here is a lot more strict so you never know.

Chances are the school is only giving an accurate account of their impression of you. As without knowing you at all, but from reading many accounts of what we, as Farang teachers, complain about, I wouldn't be surprised if most Thai schools had the impression that many Farang teachers were lazy, uncooperative, argumentative, moody, disrespectful and constantly complaining. I could almost definitely imagine some of the Thai teachers saying at least 3 of these things about me, maybe more.

Your best bet might be to remove them as a reference, as if they're just listed on your CV, but without contact details, it'll be less likely that future employers will bother to try and contact them (Unless it's a school which is closeby to where you are applying).

[SlyAnimal]

Please refrain from criticism of users grammar/spelling as posts which do, are generally constitutes as trolling and thus removed.

[ClutchClark]

Thailand has defamation/slander laws which are much more strict than most western countries when it comes to defamation/slander.

As if you were in a western country, and someone gave you a bad reference, I very much doubt you could take any legal action against them (Unless what they were saying was completely fictional or unsolicited, and even then, you'd need some kind of evidence of the slander). As the entire point of a reference, is to ask your previous employers what they thought about you, if they couldn't say anything which was critical of you, then what would be the point in even doing it?

Chances are the school is only giving an accurate account of their impression of you. As without knowing you at all, but from reading many accounts of what we, as Farang teachers, complain about, I wouldn't be surprised if most Thai schools had the impression that many Farang teachers were lazy, uncooperative, argumentative, moody, disrespectful and constantly complaining. I could almost definitely imagine some of the Thai teachers saying at least 3 of these things about me, maybe more.

Your best bet might be to remove them as a reference, as if they're just listed on your CV, but without contact details, it'll be less likely that future employers will bother to try and contact them (Unless it's a school which is closeby to where you are applying).

Agree with this.

Plus you would need this woman who volunteered this information to swear to its validity. That would create problems for her at her work. That means it would be you that screwed someone over.

Meanwhile, you would not be wise to contact the old employer and make a scene based on unsubstantiated hunches because it would only hurt your standing. It might not be that past employer at all and without hard proof it looks lime you are someone who goes off half-cocked.

Lastly, in the US, a past employer can answer a simple question and not risk lawsuit. The question in:

"Would you hire this person again?"

An employer can answer, "Yes" or "No" without providing any further detail.

Chalk this one up to a learning lesson and stay positive to all parties.

[SheungWan]

I read a reference once which said 'This person has absolutely no mental health problems'.

[ericthai]

I agree with the above remove that school from your CV. Also next time i would go alone. Why bring your wife to a job interview? If you came to me for an interview and brought your wife I would not hire you just for that reason. i wouldn't want to hire someone that needs hand holding to do things. Bringing your wife makes it look like you need her to do things. If you needed your wife for a ride or something like that i would make her wait near by but not bring her to the school.

[Eddy B]

Thank you to all that have added comments, even the slightly negative ones. Like I said, this happened about 3 weeks to a month ago. @stubuzz, What I did was question sometimes why the school kept using techniques of teaching that were dated/failures and also why some gifted students from non-bilingual classes could not get a scholarship into the MEP program. We all know an MEP program is just a money making machine and the school wants top dollar, regardless of the students abilities. To the guys who commented about the lesson plan, how can you write one when you are given no information about the class you would teach??? Sure, I had a lesson plan but it was in my head, like many others I could have done. I would like you to put into a room blind and pull a lesson off..........seriously! A written lesson plan is just a piece of paper, it's what you can do in the classroom that matters the most.

[TerryLH]

"So you could write a lesson plan based on the information provided?"

I assume that you knew the grade level of the students at the school you were applying at. A lesson plan for one of those grades would have been appropriate.

[DogNo1]

Well, in America you are usually told whom you will teach and what you must teach

[SheungWan]

If required to make a presentation one should expect to find at least a whiteboard, a flipchart or an overhead projector. Take OHTs with you and appropriate pens. Also pens for a WB. Sods law says that there are none to be found when you are there. Sods law also says that the college internet will suddenly go down or be mysteriously slow. And the projector bulb will blow. Alternatively you can make yourself completely independent these days with a laptop and a mini-projector. If you don't know what age group you are going to teach then assume year 1 class 1 in your topic, explain your methodology as part of the introduction, give no more than 3 slides and provide handouts of what you are going to do. Bullet points will suffice. OK, 8 might turn up but expect 3/4 and make that number of copies.

[Scott]

With regard to the reference, perhaps you could find a contact person at that school who has a more positive take on your previous time there. If you spent 4-5 years there and were so bad, then why didn't they get rid of you before then?

I work with Thai admin and I am the one who often gets to do the termination. The reasons given to me are things like: too old, not polite, doesn't dress nicely, speaks too loudly, speaks too softly, we don't like his accent, the students don't understand him (when in fact it's the principal who doesn't understand).

Being late and absences are also a big issue. Classroom management is also a big issue. Many of these teachers use me as a reference and they do get a positive one from me.

There are loyalty issues at school and there is face. If you left, and it caused them to lose face, then they will be less than forgiving. If they got rid of you, then they have to be justify their actions.

With regard to the demonstration, that can be a problem. I often have a job opening, but I might move people around to make sure that we have the best teacher in a position. I usually ask teachers to pick a subject/topic and a grade level that they are comfortable with and demonstrate before me and a Thai admin.

A lesson plan is a VERY good idea and I am impressed with people that give me a lesson plan and have a work sheet prepared as well. Good teachers can often punt -- I had a nice, well experienced lady who did 'air writing' and had us spell the words!!

So, first check with your reference, or supply them with a contact person at the school that will provide a positive response.

Second, plan a lesson, have a written lesson plan and back up material. Even if they ask for you do something different, at least you can show them this is what you prepared.

Best of luck.

[jcisco]

I read a reference once which said 'This person has absolutely no mental health problems'.

Just as disconcerting "This young corporal will continue through life pushing on doors that say pull. "

[SheungWan]

I sat in on a number of peer group presentations of staff short-listed for interviews. It was more often the case than not that the majority were poor to indifferent in their presentations. They were dead in the water before they hit the interview room.

Edited November 15, 2014 by SheungWan

[lostinisaan]

I agree with the above remove that school from your CV. Also next time i would go alone. Why bring your wife to a job interview? If you came to me for an interview and brought your wife I would not hire you just for that reason. i wouldn't want to hire someone that needs hand holding to do things. Bringing your wife makes it look like you need her to do things. If you needed your wife for a ride or something like that i would make her wait near by but not bring her to the school.

There's nothing wrong with taking your wife to an interview, or to a demo lesson at a school.

Okay, she shouldn't sit inside the demo lesson and hold your hands, roughly speaking.

I HAD to bring my wife with me when I signed my contract in May, as I work in the same area where my wife's from.

Plus a Thai teacher to make a guarantee that I'm really human. ( More as a reference).

But I had a demo lesson prepared for two different levels. Plus five sets of a lesson plan.

Nobody wanted to see it, but I had something to show them. You should have known better. Especially when working here for such a long time.

But honestly speaking, it might not have been your "unprepared lesson".

Maybe your former school knew things about you, your wife doesn't even know.

Things you don't even know about, as it's sooo easy here to make things up. Take that school out of your resume and you'll find a suitable position.

Then you taught at a language school in XXXXX. Best of luck getting all sorted out.

[arrowsdawdle]

Thailand has defamation/slander laws which are much more strict than most western countries when it comes to defamation/slander.

As if you were in a western country, and someone gave you a bad reference, I very much doubt you could take any legal action against them (Unless what they were saying was completely fictional or unsolicited, and even then, you'd need some kind of evidence of the slander). As the entire point of a reference, is to ask your previous employers what they thought about you, if they couldn't say anything which was critical of you, then what would be the point in even doing it?

Chances are the school is only giving an accurate account of their impression of you. As without knowing you at all, but from reading many accounts of what we, as Farang teachers, complain about, I wouldn't be surprised if most Thai schools had the impression that many Farang teachers were lazy, uncooperative, argumentative, moody, disrespectful and constantly complaining. I could almost definitely imagine some of the Thai teachers saying at least 3 of these things about me, maybe more.

Your best bet might be to remove them as a reference, as if they're just listed on your CV, but without contact details, it'll be less likely that future employers will bother to try and contact them (Unless it's a school which is closeby to where you are applying).

Agree with this.

Plus you would need this woman who volunteered this information to swear to its validity. That would create problems for her at her work. That means it would be you that screwed someone over.

Meanwhile, you would not be wise to contact the old employer and make a scene based on unsubstantiated hunches because it would only hurt your standing. It might not be that past employer at all and without hard proof it looks lime you are someone who goes off half-cocked.

Lastly, in the US, a past employer can answer a simple question and not risk lawsuit. The question in:

"Would you hire this person again?"

An employer can answer, "Yes" or "No" without providing any further detail.

Chalk this one up to a learning lesson and stay positive to all parties.

Doesn't anybody have mobile phones any more? What validity? You ask the woman to confirm to you that such and such school said bad things about you and record your question and her answer.

How long do you have to be in Thailand before you realize that proficiency has nothing to do with it. Being prepared has nothing to do with it. It is all about whether they find you pleasant and amusing or not, whether you will work for peanuts, and whether you are so skilled that you will make existing faculty look bad.

[arrowsdawdle]

Thank you to all that have added comments, even the slightly negative ones. Like I said, this happened about 3 weeks to a month ago. @stubuzz, What I did was question sometimes why the school kept using techniques of teaching that were dated/failures and also why some gifted students from non-bilingual classes could not get a scholarship into the MEP program. We all know an MEP program is just a money making machine and the school wants top dollar, regardless of the students abilities. To the guys who commented about the lesson plan, how can you write one when you are given no information about the class you would teach??? Sure, I had a lesson plan but it was in my head, like many others I could have done. I would like you to put into a room blind and pull a lesson off..........seriously! A written lesson plan is just a piece of paper, it's what you can do in the classroom that matters the most.

Matters the most to you, perhaps, but apparently they were not impressed with what you could do in the classroom. No offense, but teaching is about retention, keeping butts in chairs, because that is called tuition revenue and it keeps the lights on. If you are not entertaining, you are not teaching.

[smileplur]

You should always have a lesson plan to hand over to the person or people giving the interview. That is a given. Without it, you look like an amateur. The only exception is if they ask you to do a demo on the spot and haven't given you time to prepare one. If that happens, I would question working for that school. I agree that you should not have brought your wife with you. If you must for personal reasons, it is best to leave her away from the interview. It has happened to me as well. I have left my wife and son in the car, at a park, at a coffee shop down the street, or anywhere else they could spend the time. They should never be at the school at all. They should not be seen. It is just not professional. You would not get a job based on that alone where I work.

[lostinisaan]

Thailand has defamation/slander laws which are much more strict than most western countries when it comes to defamation/slander.

As if you were in a western country, and someone gave you a bad reference, I very much doubt you could take any legal action against them (Unless what they were saying was completely fictional or unsolicited, and even then, you'd need some kind of evidence of the slander). As the entire point of a reference, is to ask your previous employers what they thought about you, if they couldn't say anything which was critical of you, then what would be the point in even doing it?

Chances are the school is only giving an accurate account of their impression of you. As without knowing you at all, but from reading many accounts of what we, as Farang teachers, complain about, I wouldn't be surprised if most Thai schools had the impression that many Farang teachers were lazy, uncooperative, argumentative, moody, disrespectful and constantly complaining. I could almost definitely imagine some of the Thai teachers saying at least 3 of these things about me, maybe more.

Your best bet might be to remove them as a reference, as if they're just listed on your CV, but without contact details, it'll be less likely that future employers will bother to try and contact them (Unless it's a school which is closeby to where you are applying).

Agree with this.

Plus you would need this woman who volunteered this information to swear to its validity. That would create problems for her at her work. That means it would be you that screwed someone over.

Meanwhile, you would not be wise to contact the old employer and make a scene based on unsubstantiated hunches because it would only hurt your standing. It might not be that past employer at all and without hard proof it looks lime you are someone who goes off half-cocked.

Lastly, in the US, a past employer can answer a simple question and not risk lawsuit. The question in:

"Would you hire this person again?"

An employer can answer, "Yes" or "No" without providing any further detail.

Chalk this one up to a learning lesson and stay positive to all parties.

Doesn't anybody have mobile phones any more? What validity? You ask the woman to confirm to you that such and such school said bad things about you and record your question and her answer.

How long do you have to be in Thailand before you realize that proficiency has nothing to do with it. Being prepared has nothing to do with it. It is all about whether they find you pleasant and amusing or not, whether you will work for peanuts, and whether you are so skilled that you will make existing faculty look bad.

Have you ever heard of losing face? Do you really think a recorded badmouthed statement would be helpful? A phone call usually does the trick and they know what he/she did, or didn't do.

It's also called reputation. You might need 10 years to built it up and only ten seconds to destroy it.

[StevenWayneSimpson]

Dont waste your time. Move on.

[Docno]

Thailand has defamation/slander laws which are much more strict than most western countries when it comes to defamation/slander.

But if you were in a western country, and someone gave you a bad reference, I very much doubt you could take any legal action against them (Unless what they were saying was completely fictional or unsolicited, and even then, you'd need some kind of evidence of the slander). As the entire point of a reference, is to ask your previous employers what they thought about you, if they couldn't say anything which was critical of you, then what would be the point in even doing it?

I imagine much the same applies here, but as I said, defamation/slander law here is a lot more strict so you never know.

Chances are the school is only giving an accurate account of their impression of you. As without knowing you at all, but from reading many accounts of what we, as Farang teachers, complain about, I wouldn't be surprised if most Thai schools had the impression that many Farang teachers were lazy, uncooperative, argumentative, moody, disrespectful and constantly complaining. I could almost definitely imagine some of the Thai teachers saying at least 3 of these things about me, maybe more.

Your best bet might be to remove them as a reference, as if they're just listed on your CV, but without contact details, it'll be less likely that future employers will bother to try and contact them (Unless it's a school which is closeby to where you are applying).

"But if you were in a western country, and someone gave you a bad reference, I very much doubt you could take any legal action against them"

You can definitely be sued in western countries for giving a 'bad reference', but you have a good chance of winning if you have evidence to support what you've said. See http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/27/us/the-law-boss-can-be-sued-for-saying-too-much.html. For example, you would want to have performance reviews or disciplinary records that corroborate what is being said in the reference letter. Of course, there's a lot that makes someone a less-than-ideal employee that does not make it into formal performance reviews, and that's where the problem lies.

[pkspeaker]

NO you cannot sue in a situation like this, ofcource your former employer has a right to have his/her own opinion..and for such a minor job in this country where the courts are backlogged and conduct he proceedings in thai, ridiculous..it would be chaos if everytime a bad review was given for a low paying job it went to court, if someone was to sue in a situation like this there would have to be alot of money at stake, also consider the notion of irreparable harm as a result of the bad review, you can just get another job if this one didn't pan out..

i one time left a company and this guy volunteered to be used as a reference, when i put his name and phone # down at a prospective company, he gave a review that wasn't that great considering he had offered to be used as a reference..suing never occurred to me i just didn't put his name down again., but i still got that job..after they hired me they told me what he had said.

you just have to not use that employer as work history. this is the whole reason people want to leave their jobs in good standing, so they can use it as a reference, if employers were not allowed to give bad reviews what incentive is there for an employee to do well at their present job?

Edited November 15, 2014 by pkspeaker

[SlyAnimal]

"But if you were in a western country, and someone gave you a bad reference, I very much doubt you could take any legal action against them"

You can definitely be sued in western countries for giving a 'bad reference', but you have a good chance of winning if you have evidence to support what you've said. Seehttp://www.nytimes.c...g-too-much.html. For example, you would want to have performance reviews or disciplinary records that corroborate what is being said in the reference letter. Of course, there's a lot that makes someone a less-than-ideal employee that does not make it into formal performance reviews, and that's where the problem lies.

My point wasn't so much that you can't take legal action, but that it's almost impossible to win and usually not worth even attempting (Unless it's for millions or clear cut).

As per your article:

The law is very much on the bosses' side. Employers have the right to discuss their employees with others who have a common interest in them. And it is a fundamental legal principle that neither true statements nor statements of opinion can be defamatory, no matter how hurtful they are. Indeed, employers are only liable for defamation if they knowingly or recklessly spread false information. A No-Win Case for Employers

Essentially in the west, the employer is allowed to give a bad reference, provided it's based on the truth (as they see it). If they provide information which isn't based on the truth, then they open themselves up, but even then, the employee needs to actually get access to that information (And most companies which don't hire you, don't give a detailed breakdown on why they didn't hire you, let alone explain the particulars of your bad reference).

People can sue them, but the ex-employee usually loses, so has to waste time + pay legal fees + often the employer will be awarded a portion of costs as well, not to mention of course that it's essentially airing the employee's dirty laundry for all to see, and providing a black mark against them for any future employees.

The company also has to waste time/money defending the case, and may cop some bad publicity, but legally they're usually rock solid.

Generally litigation for a bad reference is a lose lose situation for both parties, although the employee is usually going to lose the most (Unless they can just get their employer to settle outside of court).

The same goes for most legal action against employers, unless it's pretty clear cut that the employee was mistreated. I've seen some cases in the news where employees have told their boss to "Go **** yourself, and stick your job up your ****!!) then been fired for serious misconduct. But the employee somehow works out that they have a case, and then manage to win it. If you goggled the name of a prospective applicant, and saw a report about them doing that... and then the boss having to pay them out.... how likely would you be to hire them lol.

The same goes with references, if you found out that one of your ex-employees tried to sue another ex-employer for defamation based on a reference, would you give them a reference at all? And if you did decide to, and just cover your bases, you'd probably inform the new employer that the employee has previously taken legal action over employment disputes (Which, if I were their new employer, would sink any chances they had of working for my company).

[Globaleyes]

To say the OP did anything is a BIG assumption - and not really warranted without more information.

I heard one story was because I had not given a written lesson plan. Like I said, they just told me to be ready to give a demo and I had no idea what age group or who I was going to teach,

No lesson plan showed that you were not ready to give a demo lesson.

they had called a previous school I had worked at 4 yrs ago had spoken bad about me. Now, I kind of know who this individual at the school would be but I can not prove it 100% at the moment.

You kind of know who it was, so you know what you did. Care to share what you did?

[Kasset Tak]

Yes. I would of asked who the demo lesson was intended for during the interview. If they didn't know, i would of prepared 2 or 3 different lesson incorporating the same ides at varying levels of difficulty. It shows that you are prepared and have planned beforehand.

I was asked to have a demo lesson once, they told me during the interview not before so I got 5 min to prepare... And they had arranged for a mixed class so students from M1 to M6... How do you prepare for that?!

[lostinisaan]

Yes. I would of asked who the demo lesson was intended for during the interview. If they didn't know, i would of prepared 2 or 3 different lesson incorporating the same ides at varying levels of difficulty. It shows that you are prepared and have planned beforehand.

I was asked to have a demo lesson once, they told me during the interview not before so I got 5 min to prepare... And they had arranged for a mixed class so students from M1 to M6... How do you prepare for that?!

Ask them if you can use a PC, write a lesson plan, call it "greetings, "nationalities", or anything else. I wouldn't have a problem to come up with a lesson plan, would write it within five minutes, plan how to do it, while typing and deliver my lesson.

First, you'll have to check their level of English, then you can add more and more to your lesson.

I could walk into a grade one class, or a grade 12, completely unprepared, but I could deliver a lesson that would be appreciated.

Shouldn't a teacher be able to find out how good his audience in English is? Either teachers who play the role of being students, or some students they just pick from somewhere.

I don't want to sound impertinent, but an experienced teacher should be capable doing so without a problem.

( Even without a wife doing the conversation for him).

Teaching creates all other occupations. Sadly, many people think all you need is to be from an English speaking country.

Speaking a language fluently alone doesn't make you to a teacher.