'Four killed' in Jerusalem synagogue attack

[Morch]

Meanwhile, in incredibly insensitive timing SPAIN voted to recognize the state of Palestine.

Spain along with Sweden and UK are simply attempting to right an historical wrong.

Maybe it needs the Europeans to cajole, legislate, or threaten the parties into stepping back from their religious fanaticism. The US has too much Jewish lobby baggage to succeed.

What clout does Europe have when dealing with both sides? Granted that the USA does not come off as impartial for the Palestinians, but the same goes for the EU in relation to Israel. The difference is that, relative to the EU, the USA carries a bigger stick and can provide better carrots. The ideal situation would see both sides dealing directly, but hardly an option under current circumstances. Not much hope that there could be a real accord even on the issue of mediator.

The current leadership of both Israelis and Palestinians is simply not up to the task.

[Jingthing]

In other words, those expecting or suggesting a simple and quick answer to all this are sheit out of luck!

[Morch]

How absurd that these Palestinian DEMONIZERS (who don't read or speak a word of Arabic) are portraying themselves as authorities on what is says in the Koran or the Hamas charter. I wouldn't doubt it at all if it was revealed that they used the Likud Party's official translation of both texts for their 'facts'.

Many of the apologists for the occupiers are not doing a very good job of toning down their HATE SPEECH against Muslims. But it's better this way because we can easily identify them for what they are-.ANTI-SEMITES.

Why do you assume that only supporters of one side have command of a language? Or, in another form - how many posters commenting sagely on Israel actually know Hebrew? For that matter, how many of the posters hotly debating Thai politics can carry out a details political conversation with their Thai neighbors?

The Hamas charter is available in quite a few translations, the variations are not that great, really (except in versions where certain omissions are evident).

As for fiery words, hate-speech and general unpleasantness - I think it can safely be said that, sadly, they are some of the hallmarks of these "discussions" here.

[Jingthing]

Palestinian leaders saying rabbis are not civilians, and thus legitimate targets. Hmm.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4611.htm

[Morch]

Now you spin your way out of Article Thirty-One:

You've got to be kidding. Choosing ‘dhimmitude’ over conversion or death does not sound like a deal most people want to take and the charter says to kill JEWS, not any particular ones that follower "the false messiah".

I did say that there is much in the charter with which I disagree.

I did say that the charter talks about Jews and Christian living under Islamic rule (like Muslims in Israel live under Jewish rule?).

But that is not the same as genocide, and even you cannot say that it is.

The charter quotes the particular hadith and cites it. They know what it means, even though you want to deny it.

Show me anything in the charter which commits Hamas to genocide; that is killing all Jews.

Like most charters and manifestos, selective reading can render different interpretations of aims and ideals.

This is usually intentional on the side of the authors, at least on some level.

How's about checking what Hamas leadership actually says these days instead?

[Morch]

Love the Jewish response. "The homes of the perpetrators will be destroyed". And no doubt in a few more years Jewish homes built in their place. Gradual displacement of the Palestine population.

Yep, those Jews ...

The nerve of them wanting to be a majority in ONE tiny nation.

The nerve of you implying it's ok to destroy family homes to put your own people in their place!

As pointed out, no one is being put in their place.

And before this will be twisted - no, I am definitely not in favor of house demolitions, both for moral and practical reasons. Just saying that the demolition will not be followed by a Jewish family moving in. Lets keep it real.

[Morch]

Palestinian leaders saying rabbis are not civilians, and thus legitimate targets. Hmm.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4611.htm

And you never hear Israeli politicians make similar remarks in the opposite direction?

It would be better to look up those appearing in the clip and see how they fit in within Palestinian politics, and

the history of their stance toward Israel.

[Lissos]

That’s the whole crux of the problem....It wasn’t always that way... Jews were originally a tiny minority in a tiny state but have immigrated in vast numbers with some very unfriendly intentions uninvited by the existing Palestinian residents , swamping the Palestinians and their culture, usurped their land and displaced them into refugee camps.

Ladies and Gentlemen, that is how you reduce 133 years of complex events in an area into an agenda driven soundbite.

Similar reductionism can be heard about the European settlement of the North Americas, pre-Norman Britain, Tibet, etc etc.

[dexterm]

Meanwhile, in incredibly insensitive timing SPAIN voted to recognize the state of Palestine.

Spain along with Sweden and UK are simply attempting to right an historical wrong.

Maybe it needs the Europeans to cajole, legislate, or threaten the parties into stepping back from their religious fanaticism. The US has too much Jewish lobby baggage to succeed.

What clout does Europe have when dealing with both sides? Granted that the USA does not come off as impartial for the Palestinians, but the same goes for the EU in relation to Israel. The difference is that, relative to the EU, the USA carries a bigger stick and can provide better carrots. The ideal situation would see both sides dealing directly, but hardly an option under current circumstances. Not much hope that there could be a real accord even on the issue of mediator.

The current leadership of both Israelis and Palestinians is simply not up to the task.

Yes, maybe EU diplomatic wheels move slowly, but surely not as slowly as the US peace broker hearse that has been lumbering along and breaking down for the last 40 years now...I think the donkey driving force must be eating all your carrots.

I foresee continued diplomatic, social and economic isolation of Israel..hopefully. Eventually Israel will become a economic basket case dependent on US handouts to survive, because very few others will trade with them. Savvy Israelis will start leaving Israel rather than migrating there, and it will become more and more a rabid hot headed right wing state not knowing what to do with its huge occupied Palestinian population other than ethnically cleanse them, experience more world sanctions and will ultimately implode.

[Ulysses G.]

I foresee continued diplomatic, social and economic isolation of Israel..

Sounds more like wishful thinking or a delusional fantasy. It is no secret that boycotting Israel has been a dismal failure.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-strip-crisis-boycotting-israel-stupendous-failure-1459879

[dexterm]

That’s the whole crux of the problem....It wasn’t always that way... Jews were originally a tiny minority in a tiny state but have immigrated in vast numbers with some very unfriendly intentions uninvited by the existing Palestinian residents , swamping the Palestinians and their culture, usurped their land and displaced them into refugee camps.

Ladies and Gentlemen, that is how you reduce 133 years of complex events in an area into an agenda driven soundbite.

Similar reductionism can be heard about the European settlement of the North Americas, pre-Norman Britain, Tibet, etc etc.

Thank you for your understanding.

That is precisely what the problem is. Zionist colonialists in the 20^th century have tried to do what Europeans successfully got away with 300 years ago when the global audience was uneducated and uninformed. Where these older colonial powers have realized since the 1940s they were shovelling the proverbial uphill trying to be the imperial masters and granted independence, Zionist Jews have collided head-on with a Palestinian nationalist movement.

It was OK in the 19^th century to wholesale massacre native Americans, Aborigines, Africans, and S Americans but in the 21^st century the whole world is watching this time.

Zionists have simply left their colonialist run a little too late. Time to face reality, and consider yourself lucky to hold onto some of your gains courtesy of the generous Palestinian compromise to let Israel hold onto land stolen in 1948.

[7by7]

Show me anything in the charter which commits Hamas to genocide; that is killing all Jews.

The Spinmeister strikes again. You know perfectly well that genocide does not have to specify all Jews - the same old apologist distortion.

Yet again you weasel your way out of the corner into which you have painted yourself.

[Ulysses G.]

It is called relating the FACTS.

[7by7]

The Spinmeister strikes again. You know perfectly well that genocide does not have to specify all Jews - the same old apologist distortion.

Yeah by that measure the Holocaust wasn't genocide ...

So, you are trying the old, tired tactic of bringing up the Holocaust in an attempt to garner sympathy and discredit a point against which you have no argument.

Of course the Holocaust was genocide. The Nazi's aim was to kill all the Jews in Europe. Plus others they considered belonged to 'inferior races' such as the Slavs, Romani etc. Jews were the largest single group to suffer; but others suffered just as much.

Something many seem to forget whenever they use the Holocaust to excuse or justify present day Israeli government policy!

As shown, the aim of Hamas is not to exterminate all the Jews in Palestine ( I mean the geographical Palestine, not the political one).

[Seastallion]

Love the Jewish response. "The homes of the perpetrators will be destroyed". And no doubt in a few more years Jewish homes built in their place. Gradual displacement of the Palestine population.

Far as I'm aware, the demolitions do not denote losing ownership of land. Many a time the house is rebuilt pretty quickly (despite it being officially forbidden). Your "no doubt" is actually quite doubtful.

Whether you're right or not about rebuilding, it's totally beside the point. The act of demolishing the home of a family in revenge for the act of one family member is reprehensible and criminal.

[7by7]

Show me anything in the charter which commits Hamas to genocide; that is killing all Jews.

The Spinmeister strikes again. You know perfectly well that genocide does not have to specify all Jews - the same old apologist distortion.

Yet again you weasel your way out of the corner into which you have painted yourself.

It is called relating the FACTS.

Facts?

No facts in your post at all; just your usual insults when you have no argument.

[dexterm]

I foresee continued diplomatic, social and economic isolation of Israel..

Sounds more like wishful thinking or a delusional fantasy. It is no secret that boycotting Israel has been a dismal failure.

It may all be very well sitting by the Med eating falafel because overseas steak is too expensive at a farewell meal with your son or daughter off to years of military service, then keeping a wary eye out in the parking lot for a suicide driver. Maybe double up the occasion with your friends returning to live in the States for brighter prospects than the isolated moribund cul de sac that Israel will become.

But wouldn’t Israel’s future be much better if after a just peace agreement recognized by the whole Arab and wider world, that Tel Aviv became the financial, industrial, technological and cultural hub of the entire Middle East, construction rocketing, tourism flourishing, parents waving their kids off to University rather than military service, EU membership on the horizon next year for increased trade prospects, Jewish migrants queueing up for their place in the sun, living in peace with your neighbors without fear.

Yeah... that’s my fantasy!

[Seastallion]

Meanwhile, in incredibly insensitive timing SPAIN voted to recognize the state of Palestine.

Spain along with Sweden and UK are simply attempting to right an historical wrong.

Maybe it needs the Europeans to cajole, legislate, or threaten the parties into stepping back from their religious fanaticism. The US has too much Jewish lobby baggage to succeed.

What clout does Europe have when dealing with both sides? Granted that the USA does not come off as impartial for the Palestinians, but the same goes for the EU in relation to Israel. The difference is that, relative to the EU, the USA carries a bigger stick and can provide better carrots. The ideal situation would see both sides dealing directly, but hardly an option under current circumstances. Not much hope that there could be a real accord even on the issue of mediator.

The current leadership of both Israelis and Palestinians is simply not up to the task.

Yes, maybe EU diplomatic wheels move slowly, but surely not as slowly as the US peace broker hearse that has been lumbering along and breaking down for the last 40 years now...I think the donkey driving force must be eating all your carrots.

I foresee continued diplomatic, social and economic isolation of Israel..hopefully. Eventually Israel will become a economic basket case dependent on US handouts to survive, because very few others will trade with them. Savvy Israelis will start leaving Israel rather than migrating there, and it will become more and more a rabid hot headed right wing state not knowing what to do with its huge occupied Palestinian population other than ethnically cleanse them, experience more world sanctions and will ultimately implode.

I think that is a sad but realistic possibility, Dex. The human condition of greed and a (seemingly) collective superiority complex cum victim complex combine to form an intractable situation.

Israelis need to take a hard look at themselves and see that they are heading down the wrong track if they want to be normal, secure, happy global citizens.

[Morch]

Meanwhile, in incredibly insensitive timing SPAIN voted to recognize the state of Palestine.

Spain along with Sweden and UK are simply attempting to right an historical wrong.

Maybe it needs the Europeans to cajole, legislate, or threaten the parties into stepping back from their religious fanaticism. The US has too much Jewish lobby baggage to succeed.

What clout does Europe have when dealing with both sides? Granted that the USA does not come off as impartial for the Palestinians, but the same goes for the EU in relation to Israel. The difference is that, relative to the EU, the USA carries a bigger stick and can provide better carrots. The ideal situation would see both sides dealing directly, but hardly an option under current circumstances. Not much hope that there could be a real accord even on the issue of mediator.

The current leadership of both Israelis and Palestinians is simply not up to the task.

Yes, maybe EU diplomatic wheels move slowly, but surely not as slowly as the US peace broker hearse that has been lumbering along and breaking down for the last 40 years now...I think the donkey driving force must be eating all your carrots.

I foresee continued diplomatic, social and economic isolation of Israel..hopefully. Eventually Israel will become a economic basket case dependent on US handouts to survive, because very few others will trade with them. Savvy Israelis will start leaving Israel rather than migrating there, and it will become more and more a rabid hot headed right wing state not knowing what to do with its huge occupied Palestinian population other than ethnically cleanse them, experience more world sanctions and will ultimately implode.

I said nothing about the speed in which things are being done. The point was that Europe got less to offer, not as effective in applying pressure, and not necessarily more acceptable to the Israelis than the USA is for the Palestinians. This point of view is not an optimistic one, merely realistic. Perhaps you can actually explain how and why you see the EU stepping up as a major player in this?

Your vision of woe for Israel is not necessarily a good thing for the Palestinians. A crazed right wing Israel might be even more hostile toward the Palestinians, and as the economy of the latter is dependent on Israel - an economic collapse will hurt them badly.

So far, there are no effective sanctions on Israel, although there was an EU paper on this issue leaked recently. As far as I could tell, the agreed upon sanctions (well, agreed on paper at least) are not all crippling, and some would be a nightmare to regulate. Regardless, do you see the USA, PRC, Russia, India and other heavyweights pulling the plug on trade with Israel that easy? Somehow I doubt it.

[7by7]

Morch, I remember exactly the same thing being said when trade, sporting and other sanctions were first mooted against South Africa.

But you are correct on one point; the USA will never join in any sanctions against Israel; the Jewish lobby in the States is too large to upset by so doing.

[Ulysses G.]

Facts?

No facts in your post at all; just your usual insults when you have no argument.

How about the FACT that genocide does not have to specify all Jews? - the FACT that you tried to spin otherwise.

[7by7]

If one were to take you seriously, UlyssesG, then one would have to define the mass killing of Palestinian civilians by the IDF as genocide.

Do you?

[Ulysses G.]

Morch, I remember exactly the same thing being said when trade, sporting and other sanctions were first mooted against South Africa.

Boycotts began before Israel was even founded as a state. Needless to say, they have had little effect and the economy of Israel is becoming more and more successful.

[Ulysses G.]

If one were to take you seriously, UlyssesG, then one would have to define the mass killing of Palestinian civilians by the IDF as genocide.

Do you?

Is has nothing to do with me. It has to do with the definition of genocide that it is in the dictionary. The Hamas charter calls for the genocide of Jews and you keep trying to deny, distort or make justifications for it. Israel has no such policy.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

The legal definition of genocide

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:


(a) Killing members of the group;

(b ) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Israel has certainly been guilty of the first three!

No doubt, though, you will yet again try and justify that with the tired old mantra 'Israel has a right to defend itself."

[Ulysses G.]

Every army on earth has been "guilty" of the first three when it concerns an enemy and the Palestinians have been the enemy since they started the violence, in the first place, 100 years ago. It is called war, but that is much different from calling for the death of generic "Jews" as the Hamas charter does. THAT Is genocide.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Morch, I remember exactly the same thing being said when trade, sporting and other sanctions were first mooted against South Africa.

Boycotts began before Israel was even founded as a state. Needless to say, they have had little effect and the economy of Israel is becoming more and more successful.

No boycotts by the big players; e.g. the USA.

In the United States, the Export Administration Act discourages, and in some circumstances, prohibits U.S. companies and individuals from furthering or supporting the boycott of Israel. The Department of Commerce's Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) is responsible for penalties are imposed for each "knowing" violation with fines of up to $50,000 or five times the value of the exports involved, whichever is greater, and imprisonment of up to five years

(My emphasis)

(source)

[dexterm]

Love the Jewish response. "The homes of the perpetrators will be destroyed". And no doubt in a few more years Jewish homes built in their place. Gradual displacement of the Palestine population.

Far as I'm aware, the demolitions do not denote losing ownership of land. Many a time the house is rebuilt pretty quickly (despite it being officially forbidden). Your "no doubt" is actually quite doubtful.

Whether you're right or not about rebuilding, it's totally beside the point. The act of demolishing the home of a family in revenge for the act of one family member is reprehensible and criminal.

Not only is it reprehensible and criminal....it doesn’t even work..

Immoral, ineffective: Destroying terrorists' homes is nothing but empty revenge The IDF has largely accepted the view that such collective punishment is inefficient - so why is Israel re-instituting house demolitions?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.627383

I wonder if the Israeli authorities did the same thing to the homes of the Jewish terrorists who kidnapped and burnt alive the 16 year old Israeli Arab citizen Abu Khdeir on his way to morning prayers a couple of months ago?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_and_murder_of_Mohammed_Abu_Khdeir#Investigation_of_the_crime

... Israeli settlers spat on the murdered youth’s family at the trial.

Notwithstanding Israeli justice (ho ho ho)...

House demolition is illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention to which Israel is a signatory

Collective punishments

Article 33. No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Collective_punishments

Article 53 - Destruction of property

Art. 53. Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Section_III._Occupied_territories

[7by7]

Every army on earth has been "guilty" of the first three when it concerns an enemy. It is called war, but that is much different from calling for the death of generic "Jews" as the Hamas charter does. THAT Is genocide.

So deliberately bombing schools and hospitals is a legitimate act of war in your view?

In my view it's a war crime!

You, rightly, condemn Hamas firing rockets into Israel, Hamas suicide bombers etc. which result in minimal deaths and maiming; though, of course, that does not excuse such acts.

Yet when the IDF kill and maim thousands of civilians you excuse it by saying it's an act of war and Israel has the right to defend itself.

The Hamas charter does not call for the genocide of the Jews; anyone who reads it in full with an open mind can see that.

You, obviously, can't do so.

That doesn't matter in the grander scheme of things.

Unfortunately, there are people on both sides whose opinion does matter whose minds are as closed as yours. That does matter and peace will not come until those minds are opened.

[Ulysses G.]

Morch, I remember exactly the same thing being said when trade, sporting and other sanctions were first mooted against South Africa.

Boycotts began before Israel was even founded as a state. Needless to say, they have had little effect and the economy of Israel is becoming more and more successful.

No boycotts by the big players; e.g. the USA.

Of course and very unlikely to ever happen in any way that matters. Americans MUCH prefer Israel to the Palestinians. Anyway, It is no secret that boycotting Israel has been a dismal failure.

http://www.ibtimes.c...failure-1459879