Buddhism_A Serious Discussion

[rockyysdt]

Rocky, please give me time to craft a considered reply deserving of your questions.

No problem TRD.

It's important to get our practice right in order to maximize the fruits of our practice.

[VincentRJ]

I hesitate to set myself up as an expert on matters of meditation, but I feel a general comment on this issue might be helpful.

We are all not only products of our conditioning and every emotional experience we've had since birth, but are also influenced by emotional experiences we had inside the womb before birth. All these influences take place within a specific genetic make-up which varies for each individual.

Recent research has revealed that even 'identical twin' do not really have exactly the same genetic make-up; close but not truly identical.

We know with regard to the issue of multitasking that innate ability varies considerably. That's just one example.

With regard to meditative techniques, it is reasonable to presume that different innate abilities, in conjunction with different prior experiences which have had a strong emotional impact, will result in no 'best meditation technique' being ideal for all people.

We're all different to a degree. Accept it.

[mccw]

Quite right Vincent.

I agree.

To be clear:

I am not here to say my way is the only way at all. Actually this way is not "my way" any way- it's just the way I was lucky enough to come across.

This way I describe is a way that I have found very good personally; for both opening insight and most useful practically in day to day life too.

Having tried other ways previously; I found this to be best for me; especially given my current life commitments- like my kids/ family, biz and such.

The forest, cave, mountain top etc , are probably all great too if free to do it and of course then there are many ways to go about the journey / methods in that setting also.

I just try to talk up the possibility of all day practice with a normal life because I meet so many people (and I was one too) who tried meditation, found it to be good for them but then didn't find the time/ wanted more time but didn't have it, because of life commitments.

Breaking out of the mind set of excuse and delay and taking control consciously over the present moment. It's done wonders for me.

So I just try to share that in it case could useful for others too.

Really I think it could do good for everyone; if only people would apply themselves.

[mccw]

If any one on Facebook can check this out if interested:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1582980225256751?view=permalink&id=1584884008399706

https://facebook.com/groups/1582980225256751?view=permalink&id=1584884008399706

[mccw]

https://.facebook.com/groups/1582980225256751?view=permalink&id=1584884008399706

[mccw]

I hope one of those works

[trd]

Rocky, In replying to you, I make no attempt to conform to your understanding of Buddhism. I am not interested in such labels. Even if you say you are a Buddhist, what kind of Buddhist would that be? There are so many schools and so many ideas and interpretations, and all of that based on what the Buddha supposedly said or didn't say. There is only one truth, only one reality, so what I say is based on my direct experience but "expressed" within the vehicle of teachings known as Buddhism, or as is usually the case, Vedanta where I feel most at home. I am not interested in mere concepts or classifications. If someone wants to call himself a Buddhist and believes it represents the one true reality that is fine by me. I would feel no different if these questions come from a Hindu, Christian, Jew or Muslim. It is all the same to me. It just so happens that this is a Buddhist forum and this is where questions and views are likely to be found about the nature of existence.

Right Concentration covers things such as meditation or sitting.

Right Mindfulness covers what MCCW practices.

You mentioned by doing this there is duality.

I/We/You observe I/We/You without attachment.

You've now created another I,We/You which assumes the role of observer.

I make no distinction between what you call Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness. I have no idea what MCCW practices.

It is very simple. The mind is just a bundle of thoughts. If you put the attention on the breath you have a subject as the knower who is perceiving an object, in this case, the breath. You know you are. You know there is breath. So there is a subject/object relationship as knower and object that is known. This is duality. To be in the non dual state is when there is just knower that knows itself without an object.

The breath acts as an anchor or base from which to develop mindfulness (of mind, of feelings, of body, & of the external world and ones relationship with it).

If the breath is your anchor, then you are surely mindful of it. Now when you talk of development of mindfulness, you mention feelings, ideas of the external world. Are these not just thoughts arising in the mind. Now is that being mindful. What is so special about thoughts of external world arising when you are focussing on breath, compared with the same thoughts of external world arising when driving a car. There is no difference. There is nothing to develop. By putting your attention on one thought such as breath, you are allowing the natural tendency of the mind to settle down and experience quieter levels of thinking. If thoughts of external world come, or any thoughts for that matter, ignore them. Why are you trying to find meaning in them. These thoughts don't take on any extra meaning or potency because you are focussing on breath. We want the mind to be quiet. That is all. What you are cannot be a thought.

It allows one to stop a chain of thoughts/feelings and possibly negative action as a consequence.

How can you stop a chain of thoughts. By the time you try it is too late. The thought has already arrived. And what of possible negative consequences. Can you predict the future. We have no control of anything that will happen next. What will happen will happen. Do you seriously think you are in control of something.

It allows one to work on reducing negative actions/negative kharma and is a practical way of complying with the 5 precepts.

What does this mean. How do you "work" on reducing negative karma. Good karma will not get you enlightened. It is the elimination of all karma, good and bad, that will do it. Any karma is an obstacle.

[trd]

Rather than abandon it due to its duality isn't the answer that it serves its purpose up until personal experience and insights are gained, and then it and its accompanying duality is abandoned.

How can you abandon duality. It just is. When you as the knower engage with an object you have an experience. When you watch a beautiful sunset you are experiencing a myriad of sensations and thoughts. Why abandon it. Do you think you have to negate life. There is no question of it serving its purpose. Duality will always be there as long as you inhabit a human body. Why shy away from it. When you become established in that which you know to be the unborn state, this manifestation continues, but the difference is that you know it to be a mere appearance which does not affect your true state at all. So play with it. Enjoy it. Everything is pure bliss. Forget about gaining insights. To be in silence as your true state is wisdom. Insight is an automatic consequence of being established in silence.

It is the canoe which helps us across the river and is eventually discarded.

Yes. The canoe is the mind. So discard it.

You might think it highly presumptuous of me to second guess what Buddha was thinking when he awakened and pondered on whether he should teach or not. There is some documented evidence showing he was reluctant to teach because he thought it would be far too difficult to make himself understood. But why? There can only be one reason for this. If Buddhism was just some kind of applied psychology or positive thinking course, examples of which you will find in great abundance in the market place, then this would be relatively easy to teach. When he awakened, he knew the truth of reality was transcendent, unconditioned and without form. The True Self. But he also knew about the human condition in the state of ignorance where an apparent self totally identifies with mind, body and the external phenomena of world as perceived by the senses. Because this identification is so strong and ultimately a mistake of the intellect, there would be little point in just telling his followers to go within and totally surrender and merge with the infinite. This is a difficult practice to follow for most people. In order to be successful, he had to incorporate something that would make his teaching accessible, but by doing so it also exposed them to the risk of being misunderstood. Buddha himself predicted his teachings would become distorted and misunderstood over time.

To make the teachings accessible, he did something very clever indeed. He took the basic practice of meditation and mindfulness and bolted on to it what you might call Buddhist Psychology. By introducing a highly systemized structure based around the eightfold path and the precepts, he gave the delusional mind something to grapple with that would satisfy its hunger and familiarity for "meaning". By asking his followers to focus on the nature of impermanence, suffering and attachment as a practice, he knew that these pointers with the correct guidance would help settle the mind and direct it back to the source which is unbounded awareness. It was a kind of trick. The mind is satisfied to have an anchor, but it is the letting go of all of that which is the real goal.

The mind has an insatiable appetite for knowledge which is never ending. The search for meaning in the words of Buddha is just as futile as the search for meaning anywhere else. The greatest obstacle to truth is the mind. Pure and simple.

The risk of course is that these pointers become the teaching and the importance of a practice that transcends mind and destroys the ego gets forgotten and the emphasis is put on "what things mean". So we have endless debates on what the words mean as in the example you quoted from the Maha Satipatthana Sutta.

[trd]

There is nothing to improve in every moment of your life. Just be as you are in this moment without conditions. That is all.

If you are speaking of that which is the absolute then we are agreed.

In terms of the relative (conditioned and impermanent) why would you limit yourself by acting out who you are?

I personally am endowed with a myriad of personality flaws which not only cause pain to myself but I'm sure cause pain in the lives of those I come in contact with.

As well as practicing to become awakened, whilst living as conditioned and impermanent entities, shouldn't we strive to better ourselves (improve) and the world we find ourselves in?

I am not speaking of the absolute. To be as you are is to be in your natural state. It is the realization that you are not your mind or body and there is no personal self that does anything. When that veil is lifted there exists a "discrimination" of knowing that awareness is separate from mind. In that state you are entirely free of all internal psychological conflict and fear. It is irreversible. Like an actor who enjoys playing a role and reading his lines, he never loses sight that this role is not his real identity. Although the ego continues to rise, it is seen as a phantom, an illusion that has no connection with ones true nature.

You cannot speak of the absolute as if by doing so, the mind understands it. To speak of it is just a mental concept. You cannot observe it because that would create a relative relationship with it which cannot be. You can only be it. You cannot experience it because any experience relies on a subject/object relationship of a knower and an object to be known. Once the false self dies there is only perceiving. There is no perceiver. So everything arises completely spontaneously from the silence of the absolute without a doer. This is freedom. Ultimately everything is one because the absolute must also include the apparent duality. But you continue to live a life. By all means go and do good in the world if that is your inclination.

[rockyysdt]

Rocky, In replying to you, I make no attempt to conform to your understanding of Buddhism. I am not interested in such labels. Even if you say you are a Buddhist, what kind of Buddhist would that be? There are so many schools and so many ideas and interpretations, and all of that based on what the Buddha supposedly said or didn't say. There is only one truth, only one reality, so what I say is based on my direct experience but "expressed" within the vehicle of teachings known as Buddhism, or as is usually the case, Vedanta where I feel most at home. I am not interested in mere concepts or classifications. If someone wants to call himself a Buddhist and believes it represents the one true reality that is fine by me. I would feel no different if these questions come from a Hindu, Christian, Jew or Muslim. It is all the same to me. It just so happens that this is a Buddhist forum and this is where questions and views are likely to be found about the nature of existence.

I make no distinction between what you call Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness. I have no idea what MCCW practices.

It is very simple. The mind is just a bundle of thoughts. If you put the attention on the breath you have a subject as the knower who is perceiving an object, in this case, the breath. You know you are. You know there is breath. So there is a subject/object relationship as knower and object that is known. This is duality. To be in the non dual state is when there is just knower that knows itself without an object.

If the breath is your anchor, then you are surely mindful of it. Now when you talk of development of mindfulness, you mention feelings, ideas of the external world. Are these not just thoughts arising in the mind. Now is that being mindful. What is so special about thoughts of external world arising when you are focussing on breath, compared with the same thoughts of external world arising when driving a car. There is no difference. There is nothing to develop. By putting your attention on one thought such as breath, you are allowing the natural tendency of the mind to settle down and experience quieter levels of thinking. If thoughts of external world come, or any thoughts for that matter, ignore them. Why are you trying to find meaning in them. These thoughts don't take on any extra meaning or potency because you are focussing on breath. We want the mind to be quiet. That is all. What you are cannot be a thought.

How can you stop a chain of thoughts. By the time you try it is too late. The thought has already arrived. And what of possible negative consequences. Can you predict the future. We have no control of anything that will happen next. What will happen will happen. Do you seriously think you are in control of something.

What does this mean. How do you "work" on reducing negative karma. Good karma will not get you enlightened. It is the elimination of all karma, good and bad, that will do it. Any karma is an obstacle.

Thanks TRD.

I'll try not to make this a word fest and attempt to work towards overcoming/understanding possible divergence.

I personally don't attach to religions and subscribe to the probability that the Buddha had no intention of starting a religion nor claim to be the only way.

I'm puzzled as to why you have no understanding of MCCW's practice even after he has described it in detail.

After much time on this forum many have expressed that daily wakeful mindfulness is of equal if not greater importance than sitting.

Daily Awareness/Mindfulness practice is a key Theravadan teaching/practice.

Most on this forum, and indeed most in the world, probably have less than a .001% of awakening in this lifetime.

For a number of reasons most live unsatisfactory lives filled with suffering and dissatisfaction.

Hence many practitioners embrace the 8 fold path, not as a way to become enlightened/awakened, but as a way of improving ones life.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that practicing the 8 fold path will bring about exponential improvement in ones life.

Beginning at the coarse level of becoming aware of ones conditioning and building awareness with poise & clarity allowing one to intervene in their thoughts, & resultant feelings and actions.

Rather than react, to have the speed and insight with which to allow one to let go of things, refrain from allowing an initial thought to develop into a chain of thoughts with resultant feelings and actions.

Not only that but bare attention with focus on the breath brings one back to the present.

Instead of living life worried about the future and lamenting the past, we actual bring ourselves to the here and now.

I'm also of the understanding that insights, initially gained at the coarse level, given time and practice, will grow ever finer revealing more delicate insights.

Those encumbered by their need to make a living, their need to support dependents may not have the luxury of sitting for long hours.

What better way than to refine their concentration, through mindfulness.

This process is identical to sitting, but focuses on building a continuous bare attention of ones breath, body, thoughts, feelings and the external using breath as the base focal point from which to build concentration.

As awareness becomes more regular and deeper ones bare attention grows ro encompass thoughts, feeling and our reaction to the world.

The concentration developed during ones wakeful day will also as a great exercise allowing one to have better quality sitting practice.

The breath is simply a point of focus.

Unless we are dead, all of us have breath.

It's readily available as our anchor or baseline from which to build our concentration.

Breath is also very powerful.

The short or non existent breath is associated with stress and tension in the body.

The long uncontrolled breath is associated with a relaxed body.

So when we lose awareness (bare attention) coming back to awareness of breath as a central point allows us to build our concentration again.

• We either have a life in which we are conscious and go about our lives through conditioned response.

or

• Grow bare awareness/mindfulness of our consciousness with its conditioned thoughts, feelings and responses.

The rewards are many fold.

The bare attention, over time, will reveal our conditioned thoughts, feelings and responses.

We begin to understand and appreciate the triggers for our thoughts, feelings and responses.

We begin to have insight into whether there is a better way.

We can recognize that thoughts of past events can cause pain and reactions as would real current events (re live trauma).

We can learn that by being mindful we can cut short a chain of thoughts and reactions thus limiting our suffering and over reaction (re living the past).

By cutting short our attachment to such thoughts, feelings, reactions, we can refrain from acting inappropriately and thus limit negative kharma.

As less than .0001% of us will awaken in this lifetime, then developing an acute level of awareness should assist in allowing us to keep the precepts leading to a more favorable re birth.

Practicing wakeful mindfulness/bare attention/awareness also assists one to live in the moment (present).

There are many reasons why practicing mindfulness/bare attention/awareness is of great benefit.

Once one has developed concentration, sitting practice may propel one to new depths of awareness and insight.

Coupled with guidance, at some future point the crutches and aids (breath) may be discarded.

Until then they aid us in our practice.

Until such states can be achieved, the breath is a powerful tool available to all of us.

Naturally it is not the only tool, but is simple and widely used.

We are all very different in terms of genetics, conditioning, and experience/capability.

Perhaps the breath does not suit all.

Further, some may have been born with deep levels of awareness as a natural state and may not understand the state others find themselves.

Is it possible you have been born with a natural ability to possess bare attention without the need to practice its development?

If you feel the breath is unnecessary and/or harmful then I would ask "What is the specific practice you recommend in its place?"

[trd]

>>>>Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that practicing the 8 fold path will bring about exponential improvement in ones life.

Where did this impression come from. From books, from other people. What is an exponential improvement. How do you know it is an improvement. Define improvement. Is your improvement the same as my improvement.

>>>>Beginning at the coarse level of becoming aware of ones conditioning and building awareness with poise & clarity allowing one to intervene in their thoughts, & resultant feelings and actions.

What is a course level of becoming. How do you recognize it as more or less course than something that is finer. What is conditioning exactly. Would you recognize no conditioning. Are there variations in between.

>>>>Rather than react, to have the speed and insight with which to allow one to let go of things, refrain from allowing an initial thought to develop into a chain of thoughts with resultant feelings and actions.

Do you have a choice about whether you react or not react. What kind of speed would be necessary to let you go of things. How would you know. Who would inform you. What is insight.

>>>>Not only that but bare attention with focus on the breath brings one back to the present.

What is bare attention. Is it no thought or some thought. If you need to be brought back to the present then where have you been.

>>>>Instead of living life worried about the future and lamenting the past, we actual bring ourselves to the here and now.

Do you mean worried all the time or just some of the time. What percentage of time free of worry would constitute some kind of definable level. Are you not always in the here and now.

>>>>I'm also of the understanding that insights, initially gained at the coarse level, given time and practice, will grow ever finer revealing more delicate insights.

What is an insight. Whatever it is how is it gained and at what level of coarseness. Define it.

>>>>Those encumbered by their need to make a living, their need to support dependents may not have the luxury of sitting for long hours.

What does encumbered mean. When does something become unencumbered. Is there an exact point when this happens and how would you know.

>>>What better way than to refine their concentration, through mindfulness.

Why is this the best way and how would it be refined. What is refined concentration. When does unrefined concentration become refined and how would you know it.

>>>This process is identical to sitting, but focuses on building a continuous bare attention of ones breath, body, thoughts, feelings and the external using breath as the base focal point from which to build concentration.

How do you build a continuous bare attention of ones breath and what is that anyway. What about when I'm sleeping or taking a shower. How do you choose what feelings to use as the focal point and what is this focal point anyway.

>>>As awareness becomes more regular and deeper ones bare attention grows ro encompass thoughts, feeling and our reaction to the world.

How can awareness become more regular when it is there all the time. What do you mean by deep. How exactly does awareness "encompass" thoughts and feelings. Are we not always reacting to the world.

>>>>The concentration developed during ones wakeful day will also as a great exercise allowing one to have better quality sitting practice.

How do you define better quality. As opposed to what.

>>>>The short or non existent breath is associated with stress and tension in the body.

How do you know this and what is a non existent breath.

>>>>The long uncontrolled breath is associated with a relaxed body.

How do you know this. Who told you.

>>>>So when we lose awareness (bare attention) coming back to awareness of breath as a central point allows us to build our concentration again.

How can you lose awareness. I thought bare attention was nothing but awareness. What is this central point. Where is it. When you build concentration what are you concentrating on. Why would you want to do this.

>>>>We either have a life in which we are conscious and go about our lives through conditioned response.

To be alive is to be conscious.

or

>>>>Grow bare awareness/mindfulness of our consciousness with its conditioned thoughts, feelings and responses.

How do you grow awareness when you are already aware.

>>>>The bare attention, over time, will reveal our conditioned thoughts, feelings and responses.

But our conditioned thoughts are already revealed since we were born. What changes.

>>>>We begin to understand and appreciate the triggers for our thoughts, feelings and responses.

I have no idea what this means. What does appreciating a trigger mean. What is a trigger. And if you do appreciate it for whatever reason what can you do with it.

>>>>We begin to have insight into whether there is a better way.

How do you know what is better or not and what exactly is this insight that would tell you and how would you know it is correct.

>>>>We can recognize that thoughts of past events can cause pain and reactions as would real current events (re live trauma).

So what. How does that help you.

>>>>We can learn that by being mindful we can cut short a chain of thoughts and reactions thus limiting our suffering and over reaction (re living the past).

How can you cut short a train of thoughts. What mechanism could react after the event and go back in time to prevent the thought appearing.

>>>>By cutting short our attachment to such thoughts, feelings, reactions, we can refrain from acting inappropriately and thus limit negative kharma.

How do you cut short an attachment. I don't even know what that means. How do you determine what is inappropriate. It may be now but not later due to changing circumstances. As you cannot act to change future circumstances how can you have any possible control on outcomes. You will either act appropriately or not. It is beyond your control. What does attachment have to do with appropriate behavior.

>>>>As less than .0001% of us will awaken in this lifetime, then developing an acute level of awareness should assist in allowing us to keep the precepts leading to a more favorable re birth.

How do you know this. How acute does this awareness have to be to earn a more favorable birth. Is there a scale to measure it. How can awareness have levels anyway.

>>>>Practicing wakeful mindfulness/bare attention/awareness also assists one to live in the moment (present).

You need no assistance. You are already in it. There is no escaping it.

>>>>Once one has developed concentration, sitting practice may propel one to new depths of awareness and insight.

What are these depths exactly and how do you know at what depth you are at.

>>>>Coupled with guidance, at some future point the crutches and aids (breath) may be discarded.

What kind of guidance exactly. Why is the practice a crutch. If you no longer need the crutch what is it that you think you will have gained.

>>>>Until such states can be achieved, the breath is a powerful tool available to all of us.

What states would they be.

[rockyysdt]

Hi TRD.

I also need some time to respond.

Had you considered my questions?

[VincentRJ]

There is nothing to improve in every moment of your life. Just be as you are in this moment without conditions. That is all.

If you are speaking of that which is the absolute then we are agreed.

In terms of the relative (conditioned and impermanent) why would you limit yourself by acting out who you are?

I personally am endowed with a myriad of personality flaws which not only cause pain to myself but I'm sure cause pain in the lives of those I come in contact with.

As well as practicing to become awakened, whilst living as conditioned and impermanent entities, shouldn't we strive to better ourselves (improve) and the world we find ourselves in?

I am not speaking of the absolute. To be as you are is to be in your natural state. It is the realization that you are not your mind or body and there is no personal self that does anything. When that veil is lifted there exists a "discrimination" of knowing that awareness is separate from mind. In that state you are entirely free of all internal psychological conflict and fear. It is irreversible. Like an actor who enjoys playing a role and reading his lines, he never loses sight that this role is not his real identity. Although the ego continues to rise, it is seen as a phantom, an illusion that has no connection with ones true nature.

Good point, Trd. I'm reminded here of a monologue from a Shakespearean play, 'As You Like It', spoken by Jaques, which I find one of the more meaningful quotations from Shakespeare.

"All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players.

They have their exits and their entrances,

And one man in his time plays many parts,

His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,

Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.

Then, the whining school-boy with his satchel

And shining morning face, creeping like snail

Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,

Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad

Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then, a soldier,

Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,

Jealous in honour, sudden, and quick in quarrel,

Seeking the bubble reputation

Even in the cannon's mouth. And then, the justice,

In fair round belly, with a good capon lined,

With eyes severe, and beard of formal cut,

Full of wise saws, and modern instances,

And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts

Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,

With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,

His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide

For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,

Turning again toward childish treble, pipes

And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,

That ends this strange eventful history,

Is second childishness and mere oblivion,

Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything."

I guess my current stage most closely matches the fifth stage described as,

"And then, the justice,

In fair round belly, with a good capon lined,

With eyes severe, and beard of formal cut,

Full of wise saws, and modern instances,

And so he plays his part."

However, fortunately, I don't have a big, round belly because I watch my diet.

[trd]

Hi TRD.

I also need some time to respond.

Had you considered my questions?

Yes, I have considered your questions and given my answers. I wouldn't recommend you spend time answering all my points because I will come back and demolish and undermine every response you make again, so let's not do that.

I was trying to make a point Rocky.

In your last post, I deliberately responded to all your comments in a rather provocative way to try and demonstrate that any idea of progress, learning, insight, improvement, are just continually changing ideas. It is all Maya. You are trying to use the limited mind to find truth. It cannot be done.

There is nothing you can do to improve your life. Just accept it. Any such ideas are just mental concepts. Firstly, if you think you have done something to improve your life, the nature of impermanence makes it likely that what seems to be an improvement will change over time into something which is seen as a disadvantage, and secondly, whatever change has occurred will be of no consequence when the body dies. You are powerless. You cannot control anything in your life. There is no you to control anything. There is nothing to learn you don't already know. Knowing that will set you free.

There is only one thing you can do. You have to destroy the mind. You have to convince the mind to annihilate itself. That is all. When the ego is destroyed your true nature will emerge. The only thing standing in the way of truth is your mind. Know that and you will know everything.

There is nothing wrong with practicing mindfulness. If it suits you, continue. The only point I was making before is that putting complete attention on breath while using a chain saw is not something I would necessarily recommend.

You asked me which practice I would personally recommend so I will answer you. The quickest way to awakening is the direct path of self inquiry as advocated by Sri Ramana Maharshi and also Nisargaddata Maharaj. Both talk about going back to the source by putting the attention on the "I" or "I am" thought, the primary thought which appears in the mind before it attaches to an object. Putting the attention there causes this individual "I" to dissolve and expand and merge into the True Self, the one reality. Everything else where mind is used as the instrument to try and find meaning is completely superfluous.

[rockyysdt]

As you instruct I won't attempt a reply to your points other than to say, we use words/meanings differently but in many respects we are probably close.

Secondly, when practicing, one cannot destroy ego over night.

Its a practice which takes time.

My knowledge and to this date limited experience comes from the Buddhas Anapanasiti. In particular the first 4 steps.

Although differing in technique to your preferred methods, its also designed to culminate with the destruction of ego.

Using it one needs to accomplish each step.

My description earlier encompasses the first tetrad of anapanasiti. Without knowledge of the full process you naturally conclude that I am pleasing my self by practicing what I illustrated.

If we understood the way we each express ourselves and had the time to cover all the points you will probably find we are working towards the same end but with different methods.

[trd]

The ability to destroy the ego is always available, but may take time to realize. But that is not to suggest there is anything gradual in attaining it because it appears to take time to realize it. There are no steps. There are no levels. That teaching is just to satisfy the mind in a state of ignorance which thinks there is something to be attained, something to be sought over a period of time. I don't buy into the anapanasiti. That's why I would never call myself a Buddhist. Certainly not in the way most people seem to understand and interpret it. You are either awake or you are not. There is nothing in between. I can only surmise that this is a concession to the ignorant mind trapped by notions of space and time.

[rockyysdt]

Judging by your words you are at a different level to most.

Its agreed that much of the early practice of anapanasiti is probably a concession to the mind.

This is reasonable due to the chasm between ignorance and ultimate reality.

At least its a proven method judging by the Buddha's teaching.

Can I ask?

Are you of the opinion that most cannot change (genetic and environmental conditioning)?

Do you think people should just act out their conditioned state?

[trd]

Judging by your words you are at a different level to most.

I said there were no levels. I think this needs further clarification. A distinction has to be made between practice leading up to awakening and the moment of awakening. That territory between practice and awakening is ignorance, but there are no levels of ignorance. You cannot say I was more ignorant when I started practice, but I am less ignorant now that I am nearer to awakening. That is just a concept and all concepts are false.

You can legitimately speak of spiritual progress, but only in one sense. You quite rightly say that for most people, getting rid of the ego does not happen overnight, but I must emphasize the possibility is always there in any moment. It's a bit like saying I intend to take a bus from one stop to the next and the journey takes ten minutes. But when I get to the bus station instead of getting on the bus, I hang around and talk to some people and maybe drink a coffee and go and buy a newspaper. When I do eventually decide to get on a bus, the journey still takes ten minutes, but my journey in total has actually taken two hours if my arrival at the bus station is considered to be the start of my journey. But the part that actually transports you doesn't change. It is ten minutes.

So with an authentic practice such as Vipassana, mindfulness etc, you can talk about progress in the sense that it becomes easier over time for the mind to settle down and experience these temporary samadhis. But there are no distinct levels between this temporary state and awakening to permanent stillness. It happens in an instant, although a period of consolidation may take place for some time afterwards. Although this state is permanently established, the unfolding of experiences as they continue to manifest in the mind never ends. It is the seeking which has ended because all internal conflict has disappeared. Consequently there is no more practice.

Its agreed that much of the early practice of anapanasiti is probably a concession to the mind.

This is reasonable due to the chasm between ignorance and ultimate reality.

At least its a proven method judging by the Buddha's teaching.

Yes, it's good you appreciate that point. This is why Buddha was such a brilliant teacher. He had to accommodate that chasm somehow otherwise very few would feel inclined take the initial steps. It's a bit of a con really, but done with absolute wisdom and compassion towards others.

Can I ask?

Are you of the opinion that most cannot change (genetic and environmental conditioning)?

Do you think people should just act out their conditioned state?

No, everyone can change, but everyone is at a different stage of evolution. Do you have any choice but to act out your conditioned state. Do you think awakening means no more conditioned behavior? If you like chocolate when in ignorance, you will continue to like it when awakened.

[VincentRJ]

Do you have any choice but to act out your conditioned state. Do you think awakening means no more conditioned behavior? If you like chocolate when in ignorance, you will continue to like it when awakened.

The above statement doesn't sound right to me, Trd. Surely a major consequence of 'awakening' or 'enlightenment' is that we gain the freedom from our conditioned past. We might still like chocolate, but if we had an excessive and uncontrollable yearning for chocolate prior to 'awakening', then after 'awakening' we should have no trouble controlling such a desire for chocolate.

If we frequently gorged on T-bone steaks before enlightenment, than after enlightenment we might develop a distaste for all types of meat

Everyone's taste for certain types of food is determined at a basic level by family, peers, cultural and social influences, as well as genetic influences such as the number of taste buds per unit area on the tongue. Taste can also be influenced by psychological factors such as stress, guilt and anxiety. Also, the mere belief and knowledge that certain types of food may be good for one's health, can actually improve the taste.

I would think that after a person has been 'awakened', he/she will have conquered all sensual desire for food. One will eat only because one is hungry. If one has knowledge of nutrition and one has a choice of food, one will choose the food that is the most nutritious, rather than wallow in the sensual delight of fine chocolate.

[trd]

Yes absolutely. You gain freedom from your conditioned past. Now desires arise but you are free of them.

[mccw]

Tdr

Serious question and not meaning to be rude at all:

Why not meditate to the awakened state you speak of, silence or nothingness, or whatever u like to call it, and stay there?

Seriously; If karma doesn't matter/ exist; and all of this is just literal illusion/ nothing exists at all; why not just finish right now.

Despite still living and typing on TV forum and so living in what you define as duality. When you die- do you think you will naturally go to such a nothing state and be free for ever and ever?

[trd]

Serious question and not meaning to be rude at all:

Please continue to express yourself in whatever way you feel. I will never be offended.

Why not meditate to the awakened state you speak of, silence or nothingness, or whatever u like to call it, and stay there?

To be established in silent unbounded awareness is effortless, choiceless and permanent. There is no need to meditate to maintain it or to practice anything whatsoever. When we use the word "meditation", most people, myself included, talk of it as a practice. It is convenient to do so. But actually, meditation is not a practice. It is something that happens when the mind is still. When a practice results in the mind becoming still and pure, then there exists a state of meditation. Therefore if silence is established as a permanent state, you can say you are always in meditation, but choicelessly and effortlessly. Before awakening, some intention and effort is required so we see it as a "practice", something you do.

Seriously; If karma doesn't matter/ exist; and all of this is just literal illusion/ nothing exists at all; why not just finish right now.

I didn't say karma doesn't exist. The mind and body plays out according to karmic law. Karma just means action. As long as you are bound by action you are not free. To be awake is to burn up all previous karmas. But the influences and conditioning of current karmas continues for a while after awakening. In the same way that if you switch off an electric fan, the blades keep turning for a while after. So it is with karma. This is also directed to Vincent's last comment about conditioning.

I have written many posts about the word "illusion". The world has substance, but it can be considered as an illusion because compared with the unchanging True Self, it is impermanent and always changing. But you yourself said this in your previous post when you quoted "there is neither existence or non existence". That is a good way of describing it and demonstrates how the mind is incapable of understanding or rationalizing the transcendent. I have been writing about this subject in various threads since the beginning of this year. I am always saying the same thing.

Despite still living and typing on TV forum and so living in what you define as duality. When you die- do you think you will naturally go to such a nothing state and be free for ever and ever?

The True Self is the unborn state, it is deathless. Why concern yourself with the death of the physical body when you are dying every second. As each thought appears and disappears, is that not birth and death every moment in the relative. You are already free. Why wait for the death of body. It can be realized now. There is nowhere to go.

[mccw]

Serious question and not meaning to be rude at all:

Please continue to express yourself in whatever way you feel. I will never be offended.

Why not meditate to the awakened state you speak of, silence or nothingness, or whatever u like to call it, and stay there?

To be established in silent unbounded awareness is effortless, choiceless and permanent. There is no need to meditate to maintain it or to practice anything whatsoever. When we use the word "meditation", most people, myself included, talk of it as a practice. It is convenient to do so. But actually, meditation is not a practice. It is something that happens when the mind is still. When a practice results in the mind becoming still and pure, then there exists a state of meditation. Therefore if silence is established as a permanent state, you can say you are always in meditation, but choicelessly and effortlessly. Before awakening, some intention and effort is required so we see it as a "practice", something you do.

Seriously; If karma doesn't matter/ exist; and all of this is just literal illusion/ nothing exists at all; why not just finish right now.

I didn't say karma doesn't exist. The mind and body plays out according to karmic law. Karma just means action. As long as you are bound by action you are not free. To be awake is to burn up all previous karmas. But the influences and conditioning of current karmas continues for a while after awakening. In the same way that if you switch off an electric fan, the blades keep turning for a while after. So it is with karma. This is also directed to Vincent's last comment about conditioning.

I have written many posts about the word "illusion". The world has substance, but it can be considered as an illusion because compared with the unchanging True Self, it is impermanent and always changing. But you yourself said this in your previous post when you quoted "there is neither existence or non existence". That is a good way of describing it and demonstrates how the mind is incapable of understanding or rationalizing the transcendent. I have been writing about this subject in various threads since the beginning of this year. I am always saying the same thing.

Despite still living and typing on TV forum and so living in what you define as duality. When you die- do you think you will naturally go to such a nothing state and be free for ever and ever?

The True Self is the unborn state, it is deathless. Why concern yourself with the death of the physical body when you are dying every second. As each thought appears and disappears, is that not birth and death every moment in the relative. You are already free. Why wait for the death of body. It can be realized now. There is nowhere to go.

Now you are making total sense to me.

Maybe the words have confused things.

Basically through the practice of awareness of the breath cycle one realises the same thing. The space between breaths and all phenomena is what I call the "clear point of awareness" or the "nothing" point before any things arise and fall through in the awareness. All things being impermanent as such.

Only I am not certain of escaping the karmic cycle since I am still producing actions. The best I try and do is be mindful and so create as much good karma as possible and hopefully have a good rebirth and such to continue good things and not fall down the levels to greater suffering.

I do not think that one could realise the nature of this non-self/ nothingness / clear point of awareness and then go out and kill and murder people and not be subject to negative karmic effects for example.

I am not sure if past karma gets "burned up" by just becoming aware of how the nature if mind/ existence is.

[rockyysdt]

The True Self is the unborn state, it is deathless. Why concern yourself with the death of the physical body when you are dying every second. As each thought appears and disappears, is that not birth and death every moment in the relative. You are already free. Why wait for the death of body. It can be realized now. There is nowhere to go.

This is the issue.

No one unawakened knows what freedom is let alone know how to attain it.

That which is already free, in relation to us, may as well not existence if there is no awareness of it, now, and for countless lifetimes past.

To the unawakened mind/body it is virtually unattainable.

The puzzling thing is that if that which has never been born & will never die, is unconditioned and beyond time, if it already is then what connection does it have with the impermanent & conditioned?

If that which is impermanent and conditioned is so infinitesimally inferior then what does it matter?

If that which is deathless already is then what is to strive for?

What does it matter whether the impermanent and conditioned awakens?

It is impermanent anyway.

[mccw]

I think really the negativity you directed against the awareness of breath cycle practice was miss placed since it is a structured way to come to the same realisation as what you are talking about.

This is insight in to the nature of mind/ self only. There are other insights too which come about from the practice. One for example is awareness of "energy" another is seeing the karmic and life cycle system; another is seeing through to different levels of existence and it's natures, there are more; I have seen through some but by no means all. So in your definition of awakening/ enlightenment it's an all or nothing affair; but in my view it is most certainly scaled and in degrees.

I say "existence" meaning the impermanent circling of all things which are existing but not existing; I prefer to refer to this as existing but not in any fixed state. But by cutting through the many words i think we are talking about basically the same thing.

( I got a bit confused by the words and what appeared to be several contractions in your earlier post. This is my first topic in this Buddha section of the forum so I don't know about your other posts since when ever you said, October or whatever. )

You say kinda "just do it" ; but most people need to take a time and method to get to such a realisation. Some can from sitting practice; others simple awareness, other ways too; could be quick or take years.

Everybody different.

So best no to discourage people from practices which can help them to realisation also improve their lives.

Yes "improve" because although one accepts the nature of reality we are still living in it's apparent form and things like choosing ones thought to form intention and action are still creating results and karma and we still have the consequence. Like do many goodness for your family and not be a mood irresponsible shit or alcoholic or engage in immoral buisness or what ever. Fine to go totally passive if you are living alone on top of a mountain just being ; but for people still in the world thier actions will ripple out across the universe and practice to gain control ones intention and action over ever second is a very worth while endeavour.

[mccw]

Also in Regard to "no where to go" / "already free" ; My view is one can release from suffering due to attachments in this life/ body , one way by the practice I advocate.

But beyond this body the "deathless state" I take to mean being purely at one with the universe and not being born to any body or level.

[VincentRJ]

Yes absolutely. You gain freedom from your conditioned past. Now desires arise but you are free of them.

Trd,

I'm having difficulty with this concept of desires continuing to arise after 'awakening'. If one is free of all desire, as a result of one's awakened condition, then it seems logical that desires should no longer arise.

It seems like you are saying that an awakened person has the same desires that he had before 'awakening', but after 'awakening' he is free to choose whether or not to act upon the desires. Is that correct? If so, it doesn't seem quite right to me. It seems like a sort of halfway house.

To give you a practical example. I used to smoke cigarettes for a number of years, beginning the habit as a teenager as a result of peer pressure, a sense of bravado, and some ridiculous idea that smoking was a manly, mature and 'cool' thing to do.

Years later, after it had been firmly established that smoking was definitely bad for one's health, I tried to stop on many occasions, but initially failed. Sometimes, I succeeded for just a couple of days, sometimes for a couple of weeks, and on one occasion for a couple of months before going back to smoking.

Eventually, after many attempts, I succeeded, and I recall even a year or two after having successfully stopped smoking, I still occasionally had a yearning to try a cigarette again, especially when I saw others smoking, such as actors on TV. But I resisted.

In other words, the desire to smoke still arose, but I resisted giving in to the desire. Is this what you consider being free of the desire?

At the present time, many years after having given up smoking, I now have no desire whatsoever to try a cigarette ever again. The desire no longer appears. Not a trace of it. This is what I imagine an 'awakened' state to be, with regard to desires in general. Do you not agree?

[Brucenkhamen]

I'm having difficulty with this concept of desires continuing to arise after 'awakening'. If one is free of all desire, as a result of one's awakened condition, then it seems logical that desires should no longer arise.

It seems like you are saying that an awakened person has the same desires that he had before 'awakening', but after 'awakening' he is free to choose whether or not to act upon the desires. Is that correct? If so, it doesn't seem quite right to me. It seems like a sort of halfway house.

There's nothing wrong with having desires, desire is actually quite a neutral word. Without desires you wouldn't eat, you wouldn't sleep, you wouldn't learn new things or develop your career, you wouldn't meditate.

It's when desires become craving that they are a problem, craving snowballs and is the cause of Dukkha.

Your smoking example is a good example of craving.

An awakened person recognises unskilful desire before it snowballs into craving.

[VincentRJ]

I'm having difficulty with this concept of desires continuing to arise after 'awakening'. If one is free of all desire, as a result of one's awakened condition, then it seems logical that desires should no longer arise.

It seems like you are saying that an awakened person has the same desires that he had before 'awakening', but after 'awakening' he is free to choose whether or not to act upon the desires. Is that correct? If so, it doesn't seem quite right to me. It seems like a sort of halfway house.

There's nothing wrong with having desires, desire is actually quite a neutral word. Without desires you wouldn't eat, you wouldn't sleep, you wouldn't learn new things or develop your career, you wouldn't meditate.

If that's true then the Buddhist canons need retranslating. I think you will find that most people do not consider 'desire' to be a neutral word. If I were to say I have a neutral desire for food, or a neutral desire to sleep, what on earth would that mean? I suggest it would mean that I don't mind if I eat or not, and I don't mind if I sleep or not.

Those who eat because they desire food, tend to become overweight and obese. It's possible to simply eat in order to dispel a sensation of discomfort, known as hunger, and because of an intellectual understanding that without food one will gradually get weaker and weaker and eventually die.

It's when desires become craving that they are a problem, craving snowballs and is the cause of Dukkha.

I get the impression you are talking about Buddhist laypeople rather than the people who have decided to seriously embark upon the path towards enlightenment. I hardly think it would be considered all right for a monk to have sexual desires for the females filling his alms bowl on his morning rounds, on the condition that his desires did not become a craving.

Your smoking example is a good example of craving.

An awakened person recognises unskilful desire before it snowballs into craving.

I never realised I was awakened. I guess I must be.

[trd]

As far as desire is concerned, I cannot find the words to adequately describe this. I feel a desire to eat something, or to see someone, or to do some activity, yet I am untouched by it. It rises in the moment without leaving an impression. It is like trying to leave a footprint in water. There is no desire for anything yet I act in the world. I am not bound in any way by what I appear to do. That is all I can say about it.