Israel says it broke up Hamas terror plot

[Morch]

Zionist racist lies, nothing else. Israel is lying on so many issues since it was created and continues to do so. Right now is a good time to put up this terrorist plot as Israel lost the last bit of credit they had in this world in continuing their genocide of Palestinians, so they obviously have to play the tune that the Palestinians are the bad guys. Pathetic!

Really...so there were never ever any Palestinian terrorist attacks? It's all a charade?

Or do you have specific information that this case in particular is a lie?

Denial when a terrorist attack is foiled, excuses when it succeeds.

Not all the Palestinians are "bad guys", some are.

There is a real issue as far as PA's ability to control Hamas, and therefore, a question mark hanging over its credibility as being the Palestinian representative. If you think that this too is lie - maybe you'd care to back it up with something other than diatribe?

[mania]

Is this map accurate? You need to back it up with much more than just that.

If you Google Israel's encroachment on Palestine you will see many maps

Some claimed to be lies some claimed to be factual.

Just all depends on where your looking from I guess

[Morch]

Hamas were elected in to power replacing the Fatah party, but in spite of Hamas’ electoral victory, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah, initially refused to surrender control of the government to his party’s rival.

Having finally seized political power in Gaza, Hamas quickly exerted control over the region’s infrastructure, helping run food banks, schools, and hospitals. This increased Hamas’ popularity among Palestinians and helped to cement the party’s legitimacy as the leader of Gaza.

Ive said it over and over, one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, the pro Israelis among us always seem to forget the root cause of this conflict, The illegal occupation and colonisation of the Palestinan people, it's that simple.

Hamas was indeed elected, and the Fatah was a sore loser.

Of course, you do leave out the bits about throwing the opposition from buildings and the few hundred casualties the Hamas

reaction entailed.

That freedom fighter.terrorist slogan makes a lot of mileage on these topics. People who plan to place a bomb in a stadium

full of people are not freedom fighters, people who deliberately kill elderly men at prayer are terrorists.

And seems like you forgot your link again:

Having finally seized political power in Gaza, Hamas quickly exerted control over the region’s infrastructure, helping run food banks, schools, and hospitals. This increased Hamas’ popularity among Palestinians and helped to cement the party’s legitimacy as the leader of Gaza.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/11/hamas_in_gaza_how_the_organization_beat_fatah_and_took_control_of_the_gaza.html

[Morch]

Hamas as well as other Palestinian groups praised the Synagogue attack as a natural response to Israeli war crimes!

Is it not a natural response to retaliate when faced with being attacked? Ask the Americans they do it all the time, are the Americans labelled as terrorists? Shock and Awe!!!

Quite ironic that Abbas only came forward to condemn the Synagogue attack after John Kerry called him pressuring to do so.

Killing a bunch of elderly people at prayer is a natural response? To WHAT?

The mind boggles.

The Hamas claimed this was in response to the supposed murder of a Palestinian bus driver (which at least at first was

agreed to be a suicide). Relatives said it was about the situation in Jerusalem and the Temple Mount (which really was

a lot ado about nothing much). Both do not quite qualify, at least in my book, as very good reasons for killing people.

[Morch]

If Gazza is occupied than you might want to look up definition of what occupation means, but as usual do not let facts get in a way of your lies

Actually I'd have to say that Gaza is occupied. Not by Israel but by the international terrorist organization known as Hamas.

Comments like this is proof of the effectiveness of Western Medias twisted and Pro Zionist portrayal of the illegal occupation/colonisation of the Palestinian people.

It is increasingly understood that the word "terrorist", which by the way has no agreed definition, is so subjective as to be devoid of any inherent meaning and that it is commonly abused by governments and others who apply it to whomever or whatever they hate in the hope of demonising their adversaries, thereby discouraging and avoiding rational thought and discussion and, frequently, excusing their own illegal and immoral behaviour.

Netanyahu's assertion that Hamas "calls for the destruction of Israel" requires rational analysis as well.

He is not the only guilty party in this regard. The mainstream media in the West habitually attaches the phrase "pledged to the destruction of Israel" to each first mention of Hamas, almost as though it were part of Hamas' name.

Well said.

I make one observation though; You have said that no Israeli government has ever stated what it's vision is...that may be so, but the current ruling party has stated quite clearly in it's manifesto that it's vision is to have all the land from the river to the sea, ie to have no Palestine at all. The Palestine-demonisers often talk about the anti-semites who want an end to the existence of Israel.....yet here we have the ruling political party of Israel saying exactly the same thing about Palestine.

I suggest that the calls from a bunch of radicals be taken far less seriously than the calls from the ruling party of a well armed, well financed, aggressive and careless of the law nation.

Not the first time you posted this, I'll amend again.

The original Likud manifesto (or charter, whatever) was indeed along these lines. Furthermore, the Beitar movement, from

which it originated, had a bit in one of its anthems about owning both banks of the Jordan river.

That said, the current PM and head of Likud did give a public address in which he apparently went against this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu#Bar-Ilan_speech

The current official standing of Likud on these issues is not quite as clear cut as one may assume:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Charter

That said, there is indeed a right wing shift in the Likud during the last few years, and a very vocal

group of MPs to air them views.

[Morch]

It is a pity Hamas could not break up Israel.

Of course if that happens then Jordan reclaims the West Bank and Jerusalem and would probable extend to the coast, Syria would of course take the Golan and probable onto Haifa, Egypt of course would retake all of Sinai including Gaza, and Lebanon would move south as well. So the destruction of Israel results in the inevitable destuction of the Palestinian myth as well.

You make a very good point. Very good.

And I daresay if some chap from the West can conceive of it, Hamas can too. The claims that Hamas will try to annihilate Israel are unfounded fear mongering.

Found the post...

No idea if Jopha was serious, but assuming he was....reality check.

There is no Syria, Lebanon does not control its southern border, Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza or the Palestinians, and

Jordan barely hangs on to what its got. But sure, they'll all converge on the broken pieces of Israel and smash the Palestinian

dream. Right.

I daresay is some chap in the West says something its not always right, and it certainly does not mean that claims regarding

Hamas are unfounded fear mongering.

[MJP]

Is this map accurate? You need to back it up with much more than just that.

If you Google Israel's encroachment on Palestine you will see many maps

Some claimed to be lies some claimed to be factual.

Just all depends on where your looking from I guess

Google, contrary to popular belief, is not the font of all knowledge and spews out all manner of random data.

Where's the factual map? The real one.

[Morch]

And these are the people they supposed to sit down and negotiate with.

Yes, the very people that have had their land stolen and been dispossessed of their country and birthright. I guess anyone in their position would fight back.

I agree many in their position would fight back.

I would like to think not everyone would consider attack on civilians "fighting back", though.

We would all like to "think" that

Yet what is the reality? Do we go by who has killed the most civilians?

Because we are hard pressed to find a side that has not...whether later to be claimed

collateral damages or say they should not have lived near terrorist that killed "our" civilians.

Or even back to Japan when 60-80,000 civilians were killed instantly

& on purpose....as a supposed means to an end

This is not about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

Both sides cause civilian casualties, both sides take actions which are immoral.

It is not a matter of one body count cancelling out the other, or any such gruesome arithmetic.

Collateral damage, while an abused phrase, is sometimes a reality. There are even laws regulating

this, apparently (which does not necessarily make it more palatable). Going into a synagogue and

attacking the congregation, shooting a 10yo boy....these are not morally acceptable actions, no

matter how much twisting is applied.

[konying]

And these are the people they supposed to sit down and negotiate with.

Israel is no stranger to negotiations with Hamas, albeit indirect ones.

Until the Palestinians sort their own domestic mess, it is hard to tell who is a meaningful partner for negotiations.

It seems somewhat unlikely that this will actually be resolutely decided anytime soon, though, or that the oucome

will spell anything positive for peace prospects.

Of course, it does not mean that the Israeli side is bursting with anticipation to hold negotiations, quite the opposite

when it comes to the current PM.

It bears to keep in mind a saying by Israel's late PM, Rabin: Peace is made with enemies.

Has anyone in mankind history ever succeeded in making peace with Arabs? better yet have they, arabs themselves ever succeeded making peace with each other?

The entire arab world is ruled by brutal dictators and has been for centuries.

In case of Palestinians, do you really believe they are interested in peace? the average Joe is, but the ones ruling them are not.

If there were peace, the leaders would be held responsible for economy and social welfare.

They are not capable of governing or developing,

How would leaders justify it?

Even looking at Saudi, country is not built by Arabs, its built and operated by imported labor, take away the oil and they will fall apart.

Egypt managed to fall apart even with its gas reserves.

Do you see many prominent Arab scientists or doctors anywhere in the world? The only ones i could find died/lived 1000 years ago

My point is, even if Israel was to agree to all demands, i am certain there still will not be peace as they will find something else to fight about

After all the religion of peace seems to kill more people than any religions

[poweratradio]

Why MODS do you even allow this kind of war of words on a topic that has zero relevance to anything Thailand. Why also don't the warring factions in this war of words and opinionated opinions be shunted of to a corner to continue their back and forth bickering alone.

[bigjules007]

HE did not "say" anything. The article that he cut and pasted - without giving credit to the REAL writer or a link to the material - did.

http://www.aljazeera...7543645520.html

Steady on there, i did'nt say that i penned the words in that post, like its the first time someones ever copied and pasted an article onto this site, in fact its quite common, especially in treads pertaining to this topic.

Alot quicker to get the point across.

But as usual your reaction to people who are against your ridiculous pro Israeli rhetoric, is to try and discredit them, Israel has taught you well.

[chuckd]

HE did not "say" anything. The article that he cut and pasted - without giving credit to the REAL writer or a link to the material - did.

http://www.aljazeera...7543645520.html

Steady on there, i did'nt say that i penned the words in that post, like its the first time someones ever copied and pasted an article onto this site, in fact its quite common, especially in treads pertaining to this topic.

Alot quicker to get the point across.

But as usual your reaction to people who are against your ridiculous pro Israeli rhetoric, is to try and discredit them, Israel has taught you well.

Israel didn't write the forum rules.

Edited November 29, 2014 by chuckd

[mania]

Is this map accurate? You need to back it up with much more than just that.

If you Google Israel's encroachment on Palestine you will see many maps

Some claimed to be lies some claimed to be factual.

Just all depends on where your looking from I guess

Google, contrary to popular belief, is not the font of all knowledge and spews out all manner of random data.

Where's the factual map? The real one.

I do not know anyone who thinks Google is a fountain of any knowledge what so ever.

I do think it is a good search engine that may help you find the facts you asked for

so provided a link for "you" to use.

It is up to you to search those & there are many "if you" want an answer.

It is not something I am interested in personally.

I think it will not be too hard for you to find as reports of expansion that even the US has

frowned upon has been reported many times over the years.

Perhaps if you use a more specific search term such as...

Israeli expansion into Palestine factual maps?

You will find something you approve of?

Edited November 29, 2014 by mania

[MJP]

Is this map accurate? You need to back it up with much more than just that.

If you Google Israel's encroachment on Palestine you will see many maps

Some claimed to be lies some claimed to be factual.

Just all depends on where your looking from I guess

Google, contrary to popular belief, is not the font of all knowledge and spews out all manner of random data.

Where's the factual map? The real one.

I do not know anyone who thinks Google is a fountain of any knowledge what so ever.

I do think it is a good search engine that may help you find the facts you asked for

so provided a link for "you" to use.

It is up to you to search those & there are many "if you" want an answer.

It is not something I am interested in personally.

I think it will not be too hard for you to find as reports of expansion that even the US has

frowned upon has been reported many times over the years.

Perhaps if you use a more specific search term such as...

Israeli expansion into Palestine factual maps?

You will find something you approve of?

So you don't know?

[mania]

So you don't know?

555.............No as I said I don't care

I do read the news but am not a historian that looks back at the total amount of land consumed in Israeli expansion

Being from the US I do notice when the US also frowns on the actions..Especially considering the US

for better or worse seems to be the best friend Israel has in the world... here is a recent one from September

US speaks out against Israel's decision to expand state land in West Bank

Here is a simple expansion map by peacenow.org

http://archive.peacenow.org/map.php

click on each blue box for settlement statistics

But again who is asking? You are yes?

Life is kind of self service...Go find what you seek

Don't lose your ability to be objective

Edited November 29, 2014 by mania

[MJP]

So you don't know?

555.............No as I said I don't care

I do read the news but am not a historian that looks back at the total amount of land consumed in Israeli expansion

Being from the US I do notice when the US also frowns on the actions..Especially considering the US

for better or worse seems to be the best friend Israel has in the world... here is a recent one from September

US speaks out against Israel's decision to expand state land in West Bank

Here is a simple expansion map by peacenow.org

http://archive.peacenow.org/map.php

But again who is asking? You are yes?

Life is kind of self service...Go find what you seek

Don't lose your ability to be objective

I'm trying to get away from just using Google. It's a bad habit of mine and I tend to believe anything that pops up.

There's so much information out there now about everything and anything and I can't figure out what's what.

[mania]

I'm trying to get away from just using Google. It's a bad habit of mine and I tend to believe anything that pops up.

There's so much information out there now about everything and anything and I can't figure out what's what.

That last link has much settlement statistics embedded

click on a the little boxes on the map for statistics dates etc.

http://archive.peacenow.org/map.php

PS: Click the + sign to zoom in helps spread out the concentration of boxes

Also check all boxes in left list to see everything

Edited November 29, 2014 by mania

[MJP]

I'm trying to get away from just using Google. It's a bad habit of mine and I tend to believe anything that pops up.

There's so much information out there now about everything and anything and I can't figure out what's what.

That last link has much settlement statistics embedded

click on a the little boxes on the map for statistics dates etc.

http://archive.peacenow.org/map.php

Thanks.

We're getting off-topic here and it's all my fault.

Back to the topic in hand and apologies to our long suffering readers.

[bigjules007]

There you go again, exaggerating as usual, CONSTANTLY by definition means all or most of the time, look at my previous posts and you will see this is quite obviously a ploy to discredit me, again a defence mechanism by pro Israelis when they do not agree with other peoples points of view on Israels policies. Rest assured i will abide to forum rules going forward and paste the first 3 lines of text and then a link to the website. That way you can discredit the original authors of the article instead of trying to discredit me for posting interesting and factual information regarding the fact that Israel is nothing more then an illegal occupation/colonisation, who constantly demonise Hamas and the Palestinian people.

Hamas and Palestinians do not need help , they do a pretty good job demonizing themselves and with help of people like yourself, it just makes it much easier.

Standard

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed. If someone is violating the forum rules, and this includes the policy of Fair Use, please hit the report button and a moderator will deal with. Continued violation of fair use will result in warnings and suspensions. Quoting and not attributing to the source is a rather serious issue.

Under the rules of Fair Use, you may post the headline and the first 3 sentences of the article and then a link to the remainder of the article. Later quotes, if it is deemed as a method to get around the rules of Fair Use will get removed.

[Morch]

And these are the people they supposed to sit down and negotiate with.

Israel is no stranger to negotiations with Hamas, albeit indirect ones.

Until the Palestinians sort their own domestic mess, it is hard to tell who is a meaningful partner for negotiations.

It seems somewhat unlikely that this will actually be resolutely decided anytime soon, though, or that the oucome

will spell anything positive for peace prospects.

Of course, it does not mean that the Israeli side is bursting with anticipation to hold negotiations, quite the opposite

when it comes to the current PM.

It bears to keep in mind a saying by Israel's late PM, Rabin: Peace is made with enemies.

Has anyone in mankind history ever succeeded in making peace with Arabs? better yet have they, arabs themselves ever succeeded making peace with each other?

The entire arab world is ruled by brutal dictators and has been for centuries.

In case of Palestinians, do you really believe they are interested in peace? the average Joe is, but the ones ruling them are not.

If there were peace, the leaders would be held responsible for economy and social welfare.

They are not capable of governing or developing,

How would leaders justify it?

Even looking at Saudi, country is not built by Arabs, its built and operated by imported labor, take away the oil and they will fall apart.

Egypt managed to fall apart even with its gas reserves.

Do you see many prominent Arab scientists or doctors anywhere in the world? The only ones i could find died/lived 1000 years ago

My point is, even if Israel was to agree to all demands, i am certain there still will not be peace as they will find something else to fight about

After all the religion of peace seems to kill more people than any religions

Considering Israel itself got standing long term peace agreements with two of its neighbors, the answer would be yes. Peace does not have to mean brotherly love and goodwill, just folks trying to live as neighbors without killing each other. In the same vein, there are Arab countries which have long lasting peaceful relationship with their neighbors. All pretty trivial and common knowledge.

Even if one accepts the notion that the whole Arab world is ruled by brutal dictators, what does it have to do with peace? A dictator does not necessarily wage war against neighbors.

I believe that the Palestinians, like the Israelis, are not made of one mold. Abbas almost certainly is interested in peace. Might be a gap between his wishes and Israe's, but the will and the readiness for compromise are there. How much this represents popular public opinion is doubtful. Additionally, Abbas is first and foremost a political survivalist, and playes accordingly. Hamas (which indeed represents a sizable portion of the Palestinians) on the other hand, is not supportive of peaceful resolution which includes a permanent compromise. So whether the Palestinians are interested in peace is a question that can not be answered in a simple yes or no. Just to make it a wee bit more complicated - pretty much the same goes for Israelis. This is not a situation where one side is all out for peace and the other rejects it.

It is true enough that peace would bring about a need for leadership to address domestic issues, which are both hard to deal with, and less "sexy" from a political point of view. This is probably more relevant to Hamas than Abbas, though. Then again, when one considers how rife corruption is among the Palestinians (both PA and Hamas), and pits that sort of greed vs. the budgets involved in setting up a fledgling country - it might be that their take is different. To be sure, for anyone who follows Israeli media this argument (continued hostilities as a getaway from dealing with domestic reality) will sound awfully familiar. It is one of the standard complaints against Netanyahu.

Excuse me if I will decline playing the unnecessary bash the Arabs/Muslims part of your post, and will head straight to the finale...

Israel is not about to accept all the Palestinian demands. It will not happen, so why post it as a possibility? A peace agreement is a compromise, which means no one get exactly what he's after. Certainly some of the Palestinians will feel cheated, there will still be plenty of bad blood and living happily ever after is not something that will happen the day after leaders finally sign the papers. Many Israelis would feel the same.

There will be transgressions, pettiness, vile rhetoric, cherry picking the other side's words and deeds. Almost certain that some elements will not put down their arms and will do their best to shatter a fragile peace back into the previous mess and worse. This will be in evidence from both sides.

So no, I do not believe that there will be a happily ever after sort of peace in our lifetime, but that's ok, I'll take a sullen halfway effort to begin with. Will such a peace agreement hold? Depends on so many factors and developments, can't really be answered in an easy yes or no. There are sound reasons for pessimism when it comes to the short or medium term, cautiously better prospects when talking long term.

If memory serves, similar things were said regarding Israel's peace agreement with Egypt. 35 years down the path, it still holds. It ain't pretty, it ain't nice - but there's no war.